Speaking in tongues. What is it and what's its purpose?

[phipps]

Not all true.
Evidently, Paul prayed in tongues. But only before the end of Acts. After Acts, since the gifts no longer exist, no matter what anyone says about their subjective experiences, there is no Biblical evidence that any of the Gifts are now active. Satan maintains the lie, that they're still for today, in order to keep people in the books of Acts, thus preventing them from SEEING the Hope of their Calling in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles, which will prevent them from going to Heaven, which is only obtainable through Faith..

1Cor 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Note that the word "unknown", when associated with tongues, never appears in the texts. It's been added by man.

The tongues you're referring to are a pagan ritual which includes babbling or ecstatic language. Paul definitely did not speak in tongues the pagan way. He spoke different languages because he was born in Tarsus which was part of the Roman empire. He spoke and wrote in Greek and was a Pharisee which meant he studied in either Hebrew or Aramaic. When he travelled in Israel he didn't seem to need any help language wise.

1 Corinthians 14 is about speaking in a tongue/language, that needs to be understood by the others around you otherwise it's unprofitable. Verse 13 says, "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret." If I speak to you in my African tongue that you don't speak, you're not going to understand it. If not interpreted by me or someone else you'll be non the wiser.

Verse 15 Paul writes, "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." Praying in the spirit doesn't mean babbling some utterances that even the one praying doesn't understand what they are saying. Paul is saying, "If you're going to pray, pray in a manner that you understand and that other people can understand as well."

In verse 33 Paul tells us, "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

Spiritual gifts are very much still active. As long as there are people who are baptised and filled with the spirit, there will always be spiritual gifts because they are received after they get the Holy spirit. They use those gifts to serve God and preach His Gospel. Read 1 Corinthians chapters 12 -14.

 

[cfowen]

The tongues you're referring to are a pagan ritual which includes babbling or ecstatic language. Paul definitely did not speak in tongues the pagan way. He spoke different languages because he was born in Tarsus which was part of the Roman empire. He spoke and wrote in Greek and was a Pharisee which meant he studied in either Hebrew or Aramaic. When he travelled in Israel he didn't seem to need any help language wise.

1 Corinthians 14 is about speaking in a tongue/language, that needs to be understood by the others around you or otherwise it's unprofitable. Verse 13 says, "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret." If I speak to you in my African tongue that you don't speak, you're not going to understand it. If not interpreted by me or someone else you'll be non the wiser.

Verse 15 Paul writes, "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." Praying in the spirit doesn't mean babbling some utterances that even the one praying doesn't understand what they are saying. Paul is saying, "If you're going to pray, pray in a manner that you understand and that other people can understand as well."

In verse 33 Paul tells us, "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

Spiritual gifts are very much still active. As long as there are people who are baptised and filled with the spirit, there will always be spiritual gifts because they are received after they get the Holy spirit. They use those gifts to serve God and preach His Gospel. Read 1 Corinthians chapters 12 -14. God bless.

Show me in scripture where those tongues involve a pagan ritual. Why must you always ADD to scripture to support your private interpretation? You are a master of assumptions and assumptions are a great enemy of truth. Praying in tongues is bad because the understanding is unfruitful, just like Paul said.

 

[Todd]

This thread just gets more and more entertaining. Now we have two people arguing over the correct way to discredit and ignore something taught in the Bible. Lol!

 

[cfowen]

This thread just gets more and more entertaining. Now we have two people arguing over the correct way to discredit and ignore something taught in the Bible. Lol!

Maybe you should jump in here an show us how smart you are, if you're capable.

It's taught in the Bible, but it's not taught for anyone living today. When Israel ceased to exist in 64AD, everything associated with Israel ceased to exist

Tongues are certainly not taught for anyone living in the last 1900+ years, Besides Christ, the only things TO and ABOUT us roday are found in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles and, in there, you'll find no tongues, healings, raising from the dead, etc. Nothing I can think of that was ever given to Israel, like the gifts of the Spirit, was also given to Gentiles. The only reason Gentiles were given Israel's Gifts in Acts was because all the saved Gentiles in Acts were grafted into Acts and were, therefore, part of Israel's program. Today, there is no Israel, in God's eyes. Therefore, is is impossible that anything pertaining to Israel is associated with us.today

 

[Renegade]

Maybe you should jump in here an show us how smart you are, if you're capable.

It's taught in the Bible, but it's not taught for anyone living today. When Israel ceased to exist in 64AD, everything associated with Israel ceased to exist

Tongues are certainly not taught for anyone living in the last 1900+ years, Besides Christ, the only things TO and ABOUT us roday are found in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles and, in there, you'll find no tongues, healings, raiig from the dead, etc. Nothing I can think of that was ever given to Israel, like the gifts of the Spirit, was also given to Gentiles. The only reason Gentiles were given Israel's Gifts in Acts was because all the saved Gentiles in Acts were grafted into Acts and were, therefore, part of Israel's program. Today, there is no Israel, in God's eyes. Therefore, is is impossible that anything pertaining to Israel is associated with us.today

History doesn't agree with you...

Justin Martyr (approx. AD 100-165)

‘Therefore, just as God did not inflict His anger on account of those seven thousand men, even so He has now neither yet inflicted judgment, nor does inflict it, knowing that daily some [of you] are becoming disciples in the name of Christ, and quitting the path of error; who are also receiving gifts, each as he is worthy, illumined through the name of this Christ. For one receives the spirit of understanding, another of counsel, another of strength, another of healing, another of foreknowledge, another of teaching, and another of the fear of God.’ (Dialogue with Trypho, ch.39)​

‘For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time. And hence you ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us. And just as there were false prophets contemporaneous with your holy prophets, so are there now many false teachers amongst us, of whom our Lord forewarned us to beware; so that in no respect are we deficient, since we know that He foreknew all that would happen to us after His resurrection from the dead and ascension to heaven.’ (Dialogue with Trypho, ch.39)​

Irenaeus (approx. AD 120-202)

‘Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practising deception upon any, nor taking any reward from them [on account of such miraculous interpositions]. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister [to others]. (Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 4)​

‘Nor does she [the church] perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error.’ (Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 5)​

‘In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms “spiritual,” they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit…’ (Against Heresies, Book 5, ch.6, 1)​

Novatian (approx. AD 210-280)

‘…they [the first disciples] were henceforth armed and strengthened by the same Spirit, having in themselves the gifts which this same Spirit distributes, and appropriates to the Church, the spouse of Christ, as her ornaments. This is He who places prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works, offers discrimination of spirits, affords powers of government, suggests counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other gifts there are of charismata; and thus make the Lord’s Church everywhere, and in all, perfected and completed.’ (A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity, ch.29)​

 

[phipps]

History doesn't agree with you...

Justin Martyr (approx. AD 100-165)

‘Therefore, just as God did not inflict His anger on account of those seven thousand men, even so He has now neither yet inflicted judgment, nor does inflict it, knowing that daily some [of you] are becoming disciples in the name of Christ, and quitting the path of error; who are also receiving gifts, each as he is worthy, illumined through the name of this Christ. For one receives the spirit of understanding, another of counsel, another of strength, another of healing, another of foreknowledge, another of teaching, and another of the fear of God.’ (Dialogue with Trypho, ch.39)​

‘For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time. And hence you ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us. And just as there were false prophets contemporaneous with your holy prophets, so are there now many false teachers amongst us, of whom our Lord forewarned us to beware; so that in no respect are we deficient, since we know that He foreknew all that would happen to us after His resurrection from the dead and ascension to heaven.’ (Dialogue with Trypho, ch.39)​

Irenaeus (approx. AD 120-202)

‘Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practising deception upon any, nor taking any reward from them [on account of such miraculous interpositions]. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister [to others]. (Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 4)​

‘Nor does she [the church] perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error.’ (Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 5)​

‘In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms “spiritual,” they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit…’ (Against Heresies, Book 5, ch.6, 1)​

Novatian (approx. AD 210-280)

‘…they [the first disciples] were henceforth armed and strengthened by the same Spirit, having in themselves the gifts which this same Spirit distributes, and appropriates to the Church, the spouse of Christ, as her ornaments. This is He who places prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works, offers discrimination of spirits, affords powers of government, suggests counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other gifts there are of charismata; and thus make the Lord’s Church everywhere, and in all, perfected and completed.’ (A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity, ch.29)​

Thank you. I just wanted to add in your answer to the same person that in the Bible Spiritual gifts are meant for all who accept Jesus as their personal saviour and live by His precepts. Paul wrote to the Corinthians, Galatians and others in the Bible about spiritual gifts and most of them were not Jewish genetically. Paul made this point very clear, we are all Jews if we have faith and believe in Jesus Christ. In the New Testament, statements that once applied to the nation of Israel are now applied to Jesus Christ and His followers. Paul wrote,

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:29).

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Rom 2:28-29.

“For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh” (Philippians 3:3)

If we give our lives to Jesus, we are all promised special abilities to help spread the gospel. Finding and using our gifts is a responsibility outlined in Jesus’ parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14–30. The Bible says, "As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God" (1 Peter 4:10).

 

[Todd]

Maybe you should jump in here an show us how smart you are, if you're capable.

Yeah...no. I'm not here to win a pissing competition. Besides Renegade and Phipps already posted enough to debunk your idea, no need to pile on.

 

[cfowen]

History doesn't agree with you...

Justin Martyr (approx. AD 100-165)

‘Therefore, just as God did not inflict His anger on account of those seven thousand men, even so He has now neither yet inflicted judgment, nor does inflict it, knowing that daily some [of you] are becoming disciples in the name of Christ, and quitting the path of error; who are also receiving gifts, each as he is worthy, illumined through the name of this Christ. For one receives the spirit of understanding, another of counsel, another of strength, another of healing, another of foreknowledge, another of teaching, and another of the fear of God.’ (Dialogue with Trypho, ch.39)​

‘For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time. And hence you ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us. And just as there were false prophets contemporaneous with your holy prophets, so are there now many false teachers amongst us, of whom our Lord forewarned us to beware; so that in no respect are we deficient, since we know that He foreknew all that would happen to us after His resurrection from the dead and ascension to heaven.’ (Dialogue with Trypho, ch.39)​

Irenaeus (approx. AD 120-202)

‘Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practising deception upon any, nor taking any reward from them [on account of such miraculous interpositions]. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister [to others]. (Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 4)​

‘Nor does she [the church] perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error.’ (Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 5)​

‘In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms “spiritual,” they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit…’ (Against Heresies, Book 5, ch.6, 1)​

Novatian (approx. AD 210-280)

‘…they [the first disciples] were henceforth armed and strengthened by the same Spirit, having in themselves the gifts which this same Spirit distributes, and appropriates to the Church, the spouse of Christ, as her ornaments. This is He who places prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works, offers discrimination of spirits, affords powers of government, suggests counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other gifts there are of charismata; and thus make the Lord’s Church everywhere, and in all, perfected and completed.’ (A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity, ch.29)​

Unless it's in scripture, nothing ANYONE says proves anything, especially those 3 heretics (and all 3 were heretics). Scripture says that, before Acts ended, Ac 28:8-9, Paul was able to heal many, but after Acts, he was unable to heal, as noted 3 times in scripture, Phil 2:25-30, 1Tim 4:20, 1Tim 5:23.

The only Books that are TO or ABOUT anyone today are Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles. Tongues aren't mentioned, Paul could no longer heal. The only evidence of any gift retained from Acts is something Timothy had, 1Tim 4:14, 2Tim 1:6. Knowledge, maybe? There are no gifts today unless Satan is providing them, (along with the fake rapture) in order to keep people in Acts and, therefore, out of Heaven, which no one during Acts was Called to. The only place in the Bible where Heaven is a possibility are those in today's church found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts books.

The ONLY purpose of the Gifts in Acts was to witness to Israel, who required signs, 1Cor 1:22. Actually, the ONLY purpose of Acts was to convert Israel to accept Christ, who said He would not return until they did accept Him, Mt 23:39.

There is no Israel today and the Gentiles require wisdom, 1Cor 1:22, not signs, so what is the reason for the gifts today, according to scripture?

 

[cfowen]

Yeah...no. I'm not here to win a pissing competition. Besides Renegade and Phipps already posted enough to debunk your idea, no need to pile on.

So you aren't capable. Renegade debunked nothing I said, since he used no scripture, and Phipps is incapable of debunking anyone about anything. That's proven every time he makes a post.

In another thread, he just said that during the Millennium, no one would be alive on earth.. Phipps said, "It is impossible for any person to repent during the 1,000 years because there will not be a person alive on earth." Typical Phipps.

 

[Todd]

So you aren't capable. Renegade debunked nothing I said, since he used no scripture, and Phipps is incapable of debunking anyone about anything. That's proven every time he makes a post.

In another thread, he just said that during the Millennium, no one would be alive on earth.. Phipps said, "It is impossible for any person to repent during the 1,000 years because there will not be a person alive on earth." Typical Phipps.

Fine, I will play along. Before I begin I need to understand your theory a little better.

How do you define the Body of Christ?
Please clarify what you believe to be the 7 post acts Books written by Paul.

 

[phipps]

Tongues Throughout the Bible.

There are only three places in the whole Bible where the gift of tongues is recorded as being given (Acts 2:1-11; 10:44-48; 19:1-7). It would be well to study and look at all three instances in order to understand the true gift of tongues, as recorded in the Bible.

The first of the three instances, was on the day of Pentecost. As we previously looked at this instance, we shall just briefly review it. This is the instance that sets the precedent for all the other times when the gift of tongues was given. “Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language…. And how hear we every man in our own tongue wherein we were born? Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our own tongues, the wonderful works of God” (Acts 2:6, 8, 11).

The disciples were miraculously given the ability to speak in other languages, but not just babbling gibberish. They were given the ability to speak the language of those to whom they were ministering. A remarkable miracle indeed. There were thousands of people gathered at Jerusalem at this time, speaking many different languages. The Lord desired that the gospel would rapidly go to many different countries, in a most miraculous manner. The gift of tongues was given as a sign to unbelievers, given to spread the gospel rapidly. It was not given to edify the believers, to grant them a special feeling, or as unintelligible utterances. It was a gift that enabled them to speak in the languages of their hearers.

The next instance, when the gift of tongues was given, is found in Acts 10:44-48. “While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they, of the circumcision, which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, ‘Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?’ And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.” There was very strong prejudice among the Christians toward the Gentiles. They felt that the Jews were the favoured people of God, and that it was to the Jews alone that the gospel was to go. God, however, had other plans. He had to teach them this in a most marked manner. The manner that He chose, was to pour the Holy Spirit upon the Gentiles, as well as the Jews. Peter was divinely instructed to go to the house of Cornelius, and as he was speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon them all. Were these ecstatic utterances given to bring an emotional experience? Quite the contrary. The Jews “heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.” (vs. 47) The Jews heard and understood, or they would not have known that they were magnifying God. Peter leaves no room for doubt as to what kind of manifestation this was. “And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning,&Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift, as He did unto us,” “And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as He did unto us;” (Acts 11:15, 17; 15:8). Peter, explaining to the other apostles and brethren, says that “the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.” (vs. 15) How did it fall upon the apostles at the beginning? Was it an ecstatic, unknown utterance at the beginning? No, it was known languages, spoken to those who understood those languages. How was it then at this instance? It was just like at the beginning; known discernable languages, understood by the listeners.

There were at least two different nationalities represented here and thus, two different languages, as well. There were the Jews, the Italians, and perhaps others. “There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,” (Acts 10:1). This second instance gives no grounds for the ecstatic utterances that we see today. It was the Biblical gift of the ability to speak other languages.

The last instance of the gift of tongues is found in Acts 19:1-7. “And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul, having passed through the upper coasts, came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, ‘Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?’ And they said unto him, ‘We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.’ And he said unto them, ‘Unto what then, were ye baptized?’ And they said, ‘Unto John’s baptism.’ Then said Paul, ‘John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on Him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.’ When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy ghost came on them; and they spake with other tongues and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.” The final occurrence of the gift of tongues is here illustrating the importance of re-baptism. The Lord gives His approval upon re-baptism by pouring out His Spirit, and giving the gift of tongues. This is the third time that Luke records this event, and he does not elaborate on what the event was like, because he had already elaborated at length two other times. There is nothing in the passage, though, to indicate that it is the ecstatic utterances that are claimed to be tongues today. Instead, the opposite is indicated. It says, “they spake with other tongues.” The very fact that Luke records it as being other tongues, is a clue that it is talking about other known languages, for that is always what tongues means in this context.

Having looked at every occurrence of the gift of tongues in the Bible, the only conclusion to which we can come, is that tongue-speaking is the miraculous gift of being able to speak another known language to people with whom we would otherwise be unable to communicate. The popular manifestation of ecstatic utterances are nowhere found in the Bible, except in demon-possessed men.

There are isolated instances when God has given the true gift of tongues to people today, as well. There is one instance when a man, a missionary to Africa, was pioneering a work among the people and was holding evangelistic meetings. A large crowd had gathered to listen to what the white missionary had to say. He had previously arranged for a translator to assist him. He waited and waited, but the translator did not show up. As it was getting late, the missionary claimed the promises of God’s Word, and went up to the platform to speak. As he began to pray, he realized that he was speaking the language of the people, which he had never studied before, and had hardly even heard. He could understand perfectly what he was saying, and so could everyone else, because God had given him the gift of tongues. He went on with his meetings without a translator, and ever afterward, he knew the language of the African tribe. This is the true gift of tongues. It is not an emotional high. It is a gift given to communicate with those who do not know the gospel. The Lord is still working today, just as He worked at Pentecost, just not in the way that most people think.

 

[phipps]

The Deception.

There are many sincere and honest Christians who have spoken in the ecstatic utterances of today. Many of these dear people do not know that this is not the true gift, as spoken of in the Bible. They truly love the Lord and have thought that this is what God desired. God condemns no man for his honest ignorance. Man is judged by the light that he has received and by the use he has made of that light. The Lord, in His love, allows correction and instruction to come, because He loves His dear people (See Revelation 3:19).

The modern ecstatic utterances are actually very far from harmless. It is very dangerous to submit ourselves to the working of a spirit that is not from God. When we know what speaking in tongues is according to the Bible and accept that truth, we won't submit ourselves to any other spirit other than the Holy Spirit.

 

[phipps]

1 Corinthians 14.

No study on the gift of tongues would be complete without looking at the chapter so frequently used to substantiate what is taught nowhere else in the Bible. It is urged that the chapter of I Corinthians 14 teaches these ecstatic utterances so prevalent today. With these beliefs, it is important to study and understand this controversial chapter.

It is thought that the Corinthian church is a model for what other tongue-speaking churches should be. It would be well to look and see what Paul said about this Corinthian church. Paul says that they are carnal and that there is strife, envying and divisions among them (1 Corinthians 3:1-3). There was such a severe case of fornication among them, that it was even shocking to the Gentiles (1 Corinthians 5.3). Brothers were going to the law and suing one another. Paul severely rebuked them for this (1 Corinthians 6:5-7). They were doing wrong and defrauding their brethren (1 Corinthians 6:8). Their women were not dressing as they should, instead they were dressing like harlots (1 Corinthians 11:1-16). There were heresies among them (1 Corinthians 11:19). They were defiling the Lord’s supper, and for this cause some of them had died (1 Corinthians 11:20-22, 29-30). There was confusion and disorder in the church (1 Corinthians 14:33-40). There were false apostles and ministers among them (2 Corinthians 11:13-15). “For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: and lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed” (2 Corinthians 12:20-21). “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him” (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).

Paul made many statements that were far from being complimentary regarding the Corinthian church. Certainly, it is not a church to model after, but a church that was in need of very strong rebukes. The climax being, that Paul was afraid that they would receive another gospel and another Jesus, or even that they might receive another spirit. So, far from being an example of a church that was filled with the Spirit, they were a church that was in grave danger of receiving a counterfeit, false spirit. There can be no room for questions. This was a church in very poor spiritual condition.

In order to understand the 14th chapter, it is essential to look at it in the context of chapters twelve and thirteen also. In the twelfth chapter, Paul enumerates largely upon spiritual gifts. Far from teaching that everyone must receive the gift of tongues, he states quite the opposite, “For to one is given by the Spirit, the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will” (1 Corinthians 12:8-11). It is clearly stated that one receives knowledge, another receives miracles, another tongues, but every man does not receive every gift. Every man does not even choose which gift he receives. It is the Spirit that gives to every man as He (the Spirit) chooses. God knows exactly what gift we need, and that is the one that He gives to us. He does not leave it up to us to decide which gift we need. As God is the one who gives the gift, God is the one who decides which gift we receive. There are those that say that everyone must receive the gift of tongues, but this is NOT what God’s Word says. God’s Word says that everyone will receive a gift, but that there are, “diversities of gifts” (1 Corinthians 12:4). The church is referred to as a body and the members of the church as members of the body (1 Corinthians 12:14-24). A body would be totally dysfunctional, if there were only one body part. Imagine, if the only body part we had was the tongue! How absurd! The body could not see, could not walk, could not feel, could not hear, could not do anything, but incessantly babble away. Would God form such a body? Of course not. Neither would God form such a church. A church, solely with the gift of tongues, would be a useless church, but this is the kind of church that many people desire. God’s Word does not approve. To say that everyone will receive the gift of tongues, is flagrantly contradicting the Bible.

Although it is claimed that the gift of tongues is the most important spiritual gift, you will find, by comparing scripture with scripture, that is just not the case, “And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way” (1 Corinthians 12:28-31). Paul tells us that the first gift is apostles, second, prophets, and so on. In fact, tongues is the absolute last. So, far from being the most important of all spiritual gifts, tongues is the least important of all the gifts. Then Paul says to covet earnestly the best gifts. Is it tongues that we are to covet? Clearly not. The gift that people are earnestly desiring today, is the gift that Paul said was the least important, and the one that we are not to covet. It is all the more important gifts that we are to desire–apostleship, prophesy, etc., but not tongues. The gift of tongues is regarded so low in the list of spiritual gifts, that in the other places where a numerical listing of the gifts are given, tongues is not even mentioned (Ephesians 4:11; 1 Corinthians 12:8-10). To say that all must receive the gift of tongues, is simply not Biblical, and to say that tongues is the most important of the gifts is, likewise, doing injustice to the Word of God.

Looking at the 14th chapter, Paul is rebuking the Corinthian church for their abuse of the gift of tongues. To then take this chapter, which is designed to correct the inappropriate use of the gift of tongues, and base our practice upon it, is simply not consistent. Paul repeatedly urges to “let all things be done decently and in order” (1Corinthians 14:40). Apparently, things were not being done in an orderly fashion, and Paul is striving to get them done that way. Prophesy is clearly more desirable than the gift of tongues, for he says, “follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy” (1 Corinthians 14:1). Paul is not teaching that it is appropriate to have these unintelligible ecstatic utterances that are in our world today, for he says, “And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they have a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter, by the tongue, words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? For ye shall speak into the air” (1 Corinthians 14:7-9).

If what we are saying is not understood by the congregation, we are speaking to the air, and we might as well not even be talking, “Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh, barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me” (1 Corinthians 14:11). It does absolutely no good for us to speak with one another, if we don’t know each other’s language.

I have been in the situation many times where I did not know another person’s language, and they did not know mine. You are, in reality, speaking to the air. You are simply wasting your breath. I have also sat in church, many times, without a clue as to what the speaker was saying, for it was in a totally different language. I have had occasion to think of Paul’s statements here and realize how true they are. “Yet in the church, I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue” (1 Corinthians 14:19).

How much clearer could it be? There is no value in speaking without you, or the congregation, understanding what you are saying. The entire point of speaking is teaching. Unknown babbling does not accomplish this. It is also important to note, that the word unknown is a supplied word. You will notice that it is in italics. That means that it was put in by the translators. There is absolutely no reference to it in the original Greek. It simply says that he would rather speak five words that he and the audience understood, than ten thousand words in a tongue or another language.

Another important point to remember, is that the gift of tongues is not for church members. The gift of tongues is given as a sign for unbelievers. “Wherefore, tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe” (1 Corinthians 14:22).

It would be easy to go on and on, looking at points that disprove the modern tongue-speaking movement, but we have looked at enough to clearly see that Paul is rebuking and chastising the believers for their misuse of tongues. He is not teaching that this is something we should desire. He is not teaching that we should speak without understanding. He is not advocating this emotional babbling that is permeating our world today. He is correcting an abuse that had become a problem of large degree in the Corinthian church.

 

[Wigi]

The Lord is still working today, just as He worked at Pentecost, just not in the way that most people think

"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit."
1 Corinthians 14:2

"But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue."
1 Corinthians 14:19

So if I were to believe the Bible, I can't dismiss this gift although i'm staying cautious. I still thank you for the topic, that's the sign I needed.

 

[phipps]

"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit."
1 Corinthians 14:2

"But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue."
1 Corinthians 14:19

So if I were to believe the Bible, I can't dismiss this gift although i'm staying cautious. I still thank you for the topic, that's the sign I needed.

To correctly interpret 1 Corinthians 14:2 we must make sure it goes hand in hand with biblical interpretations about tongues in the whole Bible.

As I've shown in this thread using scripture from the Bible, speaking in tongues in all the biblical passages I've posted means having the gift of speaking in a foreign language immediately without having studied it or lived in that country before to preach the gospel. The best known is Acts 2:4. They, “began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” Those listening understood in their own tongue (verse 6). Not once in those scriptures did people babble unintelligible things in public that no one understood. They always spoke a language that someone else in that room understood and were preaching the gospel. Also they spoke "as the Spirit gave them utterance" which also indicates that the phenomenon was not just a human reaction to the impact of the presence of the Holy Spirit. The actions of the disciples at that time were directly under the control of the Holy Spirit. The speaking as well as the impulse was due to the Spirit.

In Mark 16:17 the evangelical commission includes the phrase “they will speak in new tongues,” which could hardly refer to anything but foreign languages to spread the gospel.

As I've posted above 1 Corinthians 14 does talk about the gift of speaking in tongues and its a a continuation of what Paul said in previous chapters . Does verse 2 go off the meaning of speaking of tongues from the entire Bible or does it harmonise with it?

Firstly, the gift seems to be unintelligible: “No one understands him” (verse 2). This is different from the manifestation of the gift in Acts 2 and has led some to conclude that the gift had more than one expression. Others try to harmonise both cases, arguing that in Corinth the gift was unintelligible because the languages spoken were unknown to the hearers and that translation was needed, as Paul himself suggested in verse 13, "Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret."

This next point is very important. Paul makes it very clear that not everyone receives the same gifts in chapter 12. “for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills” (1 Corinthians 12:8-11). God gives us all different spiritual gifts so not everyone can have the gift of speaking in tongues. Not even in private at home.

I have to point out that the same terminology used in 1 Corinthians 14 is the same as in the account of the gift at Pentecost (Acts 2:4 and 1 Corinthians 12:10). If the manifestation was really so different at Corinth, why does Paul use the same word for it here as was used repeatedly in Acts? It seems also very difficult to understand how an ecstatic gibberish could be considered as a reaction to the power of the Holy Spirit.

So in Chapter 14 there is nothing to suggest that it means anything other than speaking in different language. Paul made that clear when he said, "Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe" (1 Corinthians 14:22). The gift of an actual language would certainly be a more meaningful sign to an unbeliever than would gibberish.

 

[phipps]

Fire From Heaven.

Although there are thousands of people who fully believe that the modern day ecstatic utterances are the true pentecostal gift of tongues, this is not the Biblical gift of tongues. Just because there are large numbers, does not mean that it is correct. We must test and weigh every belief and doctrine by the unfailing Word of God. Although there may be many sincere people in the tongue-speaking movement, the Lord is calling His true people out.

It has even been prophesied that this would occur shortly before the end, “And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by the sword, and did live” (Revelation 13:13-14).

The Lord predicted that there was going to be a power that would arise and bring down fire from heaven. These wonders and signs, that this beast would do, would lead the world to receive the mark of the beast. Undoubtedly, this is not from God. What is the fire from heaven? The Holy Spirit has repeatedly been represented by fire throughout the Bible (Matthew 3:11; Acts 2:1-4). In Acts 2, not only was the Holy Spirit represented by fire, but also the gift of tongues. Could there possibly be another revival, a revival based upon a false holy spirit that would lead to the enforcing of the mark of the beast? Could it be, that this great false revival would claim to have the gift of tongues? We are seeing the fulfillment of Bible prophecy today. There is a movement that claims to have the gift of the Spirit, but it does not match any of the Bible tests whatsoever.

Our only safety, in these last days in which we live, is to be firmly grounded in the truth from God’s Word. Every other foundation will fail us. “Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).

When the anti-christ is fully revealed, there will be great signs and miracles. If we are relying upon signs and feelings now, we will be deceived at that day. The only way that we can be safe, is to diligently study the Word of God and strive to live by every word. When it conflicts with what we may have previously believed, the real test comes. Do we believe the Word of God or are we going to follow the way that we have always gone. Jesus has foretold the mournful words to those who have followed feeling, instead of the Word of God. “Not every one that saith to me , ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? And in Thy Name have cast out devils? And in Thy Name done many wonderful works?’ And then will I profess unto them, ‘I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity'” (Matthew 7:21-23). There are going to be many who have prophesied, many who have cast out devils, many who have done miracles, many who have claimed to speak in tongues, but Jesus says, ‘I never knew you.’ We must be following our Father’s will and keeping His commandments (John 14:15, 21; 15:10).

The tongue-speaking movement of today does not do this. God’s call to those inside this movement, and all other movements which are breaking God’s law, is found in Revelation 18:4, “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

 

[Wigi]

To correctly interpret 1 Corinthians 14:2 we must make sure it goes hand in hand with biblical interpretations about tongues in the whole Bible.

As I've shown in this thread using scripture from the Bible, speaking in tongues in all the biblical passages I've posted means having the gift of speaking in a foreign language immediately without having studied it or lived in that country before to preach the gospel. The best known is Acts 2:4. They, “began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” Those listening understood in their own tongue (verse 6). Not once in those scriptures did people babble unintelligible things in public that no one understood. They always spoke a language that someone else in that room understood and were preaching the gospel. Also they spoke "as the Spirit gave them utterance" which also indicates that the phenomenon was not just a human reaction to the impact of the presence of the Holy Spirit. The actions of the disciples at that time were directly under the control of the Holy Spirit. The speaking as well as the impulse was due to the Spirit.

In Mark 16:17 the evangelical commission includes the phrase “they will speak in new tongues,” which could hardly refer to anything but foreign languages to spread the gospel.

As I've posted above 1 Corinthians 14 does talk about the gift of speaking in tongues and its a a continuation of what Paul said in previous chapters . Does verse 2 go off the meaning of speaking of tongues from the entire Bible or does it harmonise with it?

Firstly, the gift seems to be unintelligible: “No one understands him” (verse 2). This is different from the manifestation of the gift in Acts 2 and has led some to conclude that the gift had more than one expression. Others try to harmonise both cases, arguing that in Corinth the gift was unintelligible because the languages spoken were unknown to the hearers and that translation was needed, as Paul himself suggested in verse 13, "Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret."

This next point is very important. Paul makes it very clear that not everyone receives the same gifts in chapter 12. “for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills” (1 Corinthians 12:8-11). God gives us all different spiritual gifts so not everyone can have the gift of speaking in tongues. Not even in private at home.

I have to point out that the same terminology used in 1 Corinthians 14 is the same as in the account of the gift at Pentecost (Acts 2:4 and 1 Corinthians 12:10). If the manifestation was really so different at Corinth, why does Paul use the same word for it here as was used repeatedly in Acts? It seems also very difficult to understand how an ecstatic gibberish could be considered as a reaction to the power of the Holy Spirit.

So in Chapter 14 there is nothing to suggest that it means anything other than speaking in different language. Paul made that clear when he said, "Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe" (1 Corinthians 14:22). The gift of an actual language would certainly be a more meaningful sign to an unbeliever than would gibberish.

I understand the point you try to make and I'm not really attempting to argue with you but more like making sense of an experience i've had. I start to think it begins with "gibberish" as you say just like when infants tries to speak for the first time until it's a fully developped language so here it's children of God actually learning to speak the language of heavens, maybe? I'll choose to trust the Holy Spirit and keep having faith to grow the gift and see where it leads me that's something I'm exploring.

 

[phipps]

I understand the point you try to make and I'm not really attempting to argue with you but more like making sense of an experience i've had. I start to think it begins with "gibberish" as you say just like when infants tries to speak for the first time until it's a fully developped language so here it's children of God actually learning to speak the language of heavens, maybe? I'll choose to trust the Holy Spirit and keep having faith to grow the gift and see where it leads me that's something I'm exploring.

Can you refer me to what part in the Bible is the language of the heavens mentioned? When I read of people praying privately in the Bible from the Old to the New Testament not once is a heavenly language mentioned. Also I've never read in the Bible that we need to develop a heavenly language through the Holy Spirit. Hence all those who spoke in tongues in the Bible, spoke a foreign language they'd never spoken before but others could understand.

 

[phipps]

@Wigi, I'm posting this to help understand how 1 Corinthians 14 was written. It makes it easier to understand. I posted this in this post on another thread.

In 1 Corinthians 14 Paul is writing to the Corinthians about the misuse of the gift of tongues. The way he writes is first he says something to emphasize his point then its followed by a contradictory statement. He writes how it should be, then how it shouldn't be. I'll show you.

Verse 1 is how it should be, "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy." Prophesy in this context means preaching or proclaiming the gospel and no one can do that without love.

Verse 2 is how it should not be, "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries." Paul does not agree with this statement. If one speaks in a different language only God can understand them and no one else. The purpose of speaking in a different language is to preach the gospel not for only God to understand.

Verse 3 is how it should be, "But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men."

Verse 4a, how it should not be, "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself,"

Verse 4b, how i should be, "but he who prophesies edifies the church."

Verse 5a, how it should not be, "I wish you all spoke with tongues,"

Verse 5b, how it should be, "but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification." No gift is greater than the other but the one who prophesies is greater than someone who speaks in tongues without an interpreter to make him understood.

Its clear once understood how in these first five verses that Paul is saying speaking in a tongue/language that no one can understand is pointless. If one speaks a tongue/language that no one understands then he should be able to interpret so people can understand because its all for the edification the church.

The rest of 1 Corinthians 14 continues like that with Paul telling us how it should and shouldn't be. I'll show you from some of the next verses the truth Paul is teaching.

Verse 6a, how it should not be, "But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you" Speaking in tongues is of no benefit if no one understands.

Verses 6b, how it should be, "unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?"

Verse 12-13, how it should be, "Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel. Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret."

Verse 20, how it should not be, "Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature."

Verses 21-22, how it should be, "In the law it is written: “With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,” says the Lord. Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe." Here is Paul is saying that the ability to speak in other languages is so the gospel could be preached to unbelievers but prophecy is for those who believe.

Once we understand how Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 14 we will never think that he is saying babbling unintelligible things is heavenly language. Verse 14 says, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful" is a verse that is used by Christians who come from churches that babble. They say that when Paul says to pray in the Spirit, he used a “heavenly tongue” and did not himself know what he was praying. What Paul is really saying is if we pray aloud, we should either pray so that others around us can understand or else keep quiet. Notice what he says in the following verses of 15-16, "What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?" If someone prays publicly and prays in a different tongue/language they don't understand without an interpreter, it is difficult for them to say amen. Would they even know the prayer has ended? Would they know what was said and if they they agree with it?

1 Corinthians 14, is telling us that the purpose of speaking in tongues is to preach the gospel and edify the church. If the listeners do not understand the language being spoken, they cannot be edified. And if there is no interpreter, the speaker is simply “speaking into the air” and the only ones present who know what is being said are God and the speaker and that is not the point of speaking in tongues/languages.

 

[phipps]

This is another post I posted in another thread. We have to carefully understand from God's Word how we are to be filled or receive the Holy Spirit.

How we are supposed to be filled or receive the Holy Spirit Biblically.

As Christians we need to study prayerfully and earnestly, and understand more about the ministry of the Holy Spirit according to the Word of God. We must be able to clearly distinguish between the genuine and the counterfeit so we can guide our fellow Christians to the truth of God so they can be safeguarded against deception in all of its forms about the Holy Spirit.

The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit is given by the hearing of faith (Galatians 3:2) and is received through faith (Galatians 3:14) at our baptism (Titus 3:5-6). Once we are baptised and belong to Christ, we should live in the power of the Spirit. We are filled with the Holy Spirit.

Also being filled with the Holy Spirit is not a one-time event. It is something that we should seek and receive every day. This filling has to be repeated so that every part of our life is filled with His presence, so that we are empowered to live and grow in faith as we should everyday.

Paul used the word filling to mean that a person has completely submitted to God and is open for the guiding influence of the Holy Spirit so that God’s work can be accomplished in the person’s life. When we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we yield every part of our life to His transforming influence with the result that our walk, talk, and thoughts will reflect Jesus.

When we are filled or receive the Holy Spirit, it brings calmness into our lives. One writer wrote, "The Holy Spirit never reveals itself in such methods, in such a bedlam of noise. This is an invention of Satan to cover up his ingenious methods for making of none effect the pure, sincere, elevating, ennobling, sanctifying truth for this time.”