Todd
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That's the funniest thing I've read on here in a long time. "If you want to know something study it for yourself", form the guy who copy/pastes articles more than he types his own words.
Speaking in tongues. What is it and what's its purpose?
- Thread starter phipps
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So if I copy and paste does that mean I don't know the subject matter? I have researched and know about the subject about spiritual gifts for years. That is why I know where to go to copy and paste about the subject. You were trying to guilt trip me for not giving you the answer you wanted. We are all to study the scriptures ourselves, are we not? Doesn't the Bible say so? Grow up!
And if you don't like how I post my messages, you are free to choose not to read them.
You are also copy pasting errors.
I don't copy paste errors, they are true to the word of God. Just because you disagree with them doesn't make them errors.
Yes you also copy paste errors.
When the Scriptures say that God will return the Jews to their land and that they will recognize their Messiah... then for you to copy paste the opposite is obviously erroneous.... wouldn't you say ?
Todd
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Wow, calm down...lighten up. I wasn't trying to guilt trip you.
I just thought it was funny and kind of ironic.
Please forgive me if I offended you...
Is it possible to tell whether or not a person has been filled with the Holy Spirit?
Matthew 7:20. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
We determine that a person has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit not by the gifts of the Spirit, but by the fruits of the Spirit, which are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance (Galatians 5:22, 23).
Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
When we are baptized, we enter into a covenant relationship with God. The promises He made to His people become applicable to us. One of those promises is the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus—who Himself had the Holy Spirit descend on Him upon baptism (see Matthew 3:16-17 and Mark 1:4-12)—promised that we would receive the Holy Spirit to comfort and to guide us:
"If ye love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another comforter, that He may abide with you forever - the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him; but ye know Him, for He dwells with you, and shall be in you" (John 14:15-17).
And Peter, after receiving the Holy Spirit himself, reminded the people of God’s promise:
"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call" (Acts 2:38-39).
The promise of the Holy Spirit is given to those who believe and are baptized. It is conditional to repentance and obedience.
"...the Holy Spirit whom God hath given to them that obey Him" (Acts 5:32 emphasis added).
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3-4 emphasis added).
Even the ability to repent and obey is a gift from God. It is the Holy Spirit Himself who is sent to “convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment” (John 16:8). So baptism is not just accepting the forgiveness of Jesus, it is accepting the transforming power of Jesus to help us repent and obey in the first place. In baptism, "our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin" (Romans 6:6).
Matthew 7:20. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
We determine that a person has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit not by the gifts of the Spirit, but by the fruits of the Spirit, which are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance (Galatians 5:22, 23).
Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
When we are baptized, we enter into a covenant relationship with God. The promises He made to His people become applicable to us. One of those promises is the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus—who Himself had the Holy Spirit descend on Him upon baptism (see Matthew 3:16-17 and Mark 1:4-12)—promised that we would receive the Holy Spirit to comfort and to guide us:
"If ye love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another comforter, that He may abide with you forever - the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him; but ye know Him, for He dwells with you, and shall be in you" (John 14:15-17).
And Peter, after receiving the Holy Spirit himself, reminded the people of God’s promise:
"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call" (Acts 2:38-39).
The promise of the Holy Spirit is given to those who believe and are baptized. It is conditional to repentance and obedience.
"...the Holy Spirit whom God hath given to them that obey Him" (Acts 5:32 emphasis added).
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3-4 emphasis added).
Even the ability to repent and obey is a gift from God. It is the Holy Spirit Himself who is sent to “convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment” (John 16:8). So baptism is not just accepting the forgiveness of Jesus, it is accepting the transforming power of Jesus to help us repent and obey in the first place. In baptism, "our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin" (Romans 6:6).
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Sure you do. They are all true to the Word of God but, just because they are in the Word of God, doesn't mean that they're written TO and ABOUT you or me at this particular time in history. God has NEVER treated Jews and Gentiles the same throughout history. Also, He sometimes treated the same people differently at different times. For example, right now, He's treating the Jews, individually, as though they are Gentiles. And, He's now treating us Gentiles as His chosen people, but in Acts, the Gentiles were second class people and every blessing they had was borrowed from Israel. The Gentile's Gospel of the Grace of God, during Acts, was that the Gentiles could share in Israel's blessings without having to keep the law. The Gentiles had ZERO blessings of their own during Acts. Now, the Jews have ZERO blessings or their own. The first shall be last, and the last shall be first
Don't think for a moment, though, that Israel won't be back as God's chosen people, Israel was set aside, as a nation, in about 63AD, In Hosea 6:2, it says they'll be revived after 2 days (2000 years). That means they'll be back in about 2063, soon after the present Gentile church is resurrected to their Calling in the Highest Heavens, and after Elijah restores everything and, I think, restores time back to the 1st Century.
From what you've said and what you've cut and pasted, it's obvious that your understanding is severely lacking. Your biggest problem is you don't have the foggiest idea of what rightly dividing (correctly cutting) God's word (2Tim 2:15) is all about. You must learn how to cut and divide God's Word in order to remove that myriad of things belonging to ONLY Israel, that you've been erroneously taught belong to you, by the Denominational Church (Synagogue) System that profits from teaching unobtainable Jewish doctrine to unsuspecting Gentile sheep.. Besides Christ, I can think of nothing ever given to Israel that was also given to the Gentiles living in this 2000 year parenthetical period. Everything given to today's Gentiles is found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles - Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon. IF IT'S NOT FOUND IN THOSE 7 BOOKS, IT'S NOT YOURS AND YOU WILL NEVER GET IT!!
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Like I said in the post above, nothing found in Paul's Acts books is TO or ABOUT anyone living today. If it's not in Paul's 7 post-Acts, it's NOT TO or ABOUT ANYONE LIVING TODAY.
How to tell if a person is filled with the Holy Spirit, as they were at Pentecost
(1) Real Tongues = If there are 20 people from 20 different countries, which all speak only their native tongue and a person is witnessing to them in his native tongue, the 20 will all hear him in their own respective tongue.
(2) Some persons filled with the Holy Spirit could heal another person, no matter what is wrong with them, immediately
(3) Some persons filled with the Holy spirit could bring a dead person back to life, immediately
It is impossible to fake real Gifts. The obviously phony "gifts" magic acts that are played with in today's churches are so phony, they are easy to fake.
None of these things or any of the other gifts, in the past 1955 years, have EVER happened. There are 3 after-Acts occasions where Paul was unable to heal someone, although he healed many in Acts 28. The Gifts are KAPUT and anyone that thinks they have them is severely deluded. Human experience is totally worthless in a search for truth.
In my opinion, there are 2 main reasons why Charismatic/Pentecostal type churches are popular
(1) People are attracted to magic. and many would love to be a magician
(2) I've been to at least 100 services in these type churches. I've never been to one where I didn't experience a wonderful "buzz" or "rush", especially when the droning music was played for an hour and everybody was getting hypnotized, This was identical with the "rush" I got 43 years ago earlier while I was doing TM and I found out later my mantra was the name of a Hindu deity that I was summoning. Also, I never witnessed any gifts in the churches that were anywhere close to those real gifts in the Bible.
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Annonymous_Damsel
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Do you know that there are people who act like they know how to speak in tongues and just say anything just to fool people
I hadn't seen this post. I don't read all your posts because I can't. Don't have the time. Again just because I copy paste doesn't mean I don't read the Bible and know the subject. I also don't just copy paste anyone. I know exactly who I copy paste from because I have heard them speak on those topics for years. There is nothing wrong with copy pasting something I've already read and known about for years. No one will make me think I'm doing anything wrong when I'm not. You will not make me feel inferior. Do you understand?
The Jews in general are never going to accept Jesus as Messiah. Individually many have accepted Jesus as the Messiah but as a people they never will. When you believe what you do about the Jews, you are dismissing the whole New testament perspective on Israel especially Jesus. Might I remind you, most of the writers of the New testament were Jews too. Yet they understood that most Old Testament prophecies about Israel were given to spiritual Israel. They knew the gospel had to be spread around the world. They understood that a true Jew, according to the Bible, is not based on genetics, but on our characters, on our hearts. They understood that all the unfulfilled promises in literal Israel would be fulfilled in Spiritual Israel (true Christianity).
I've already posted a lot on what Jesus and the apostles (especially Paul) said about Israel. Lets look at what the Bible says about the promises.
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal 3:26-29.
"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." 1 Peter 2:9-10.
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Rom 2:28-29.
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." Rev 3:12-13.
There are plenty more sayings like this in the Bible. Are you going to ignore them all and hold onto something that isn't biblical? Yes the Jews were chosen but now the focus is Jesus and about who accepts Him, Jew or gentile. The definition of Israel changed in the New testament after Daniel's seventy week prophecy. It stopped being about genes 2000 years + ago. Its about those who accept Christ as their personal Saviour from around the world. Its the reason God blessed the disciples on Pentecost with new spiritual gifts of speaking in different tongues/languages. It was because they were to take the message to different parts of the world. Its spiritual Israel (which is Israel too) who will inhabit the New Jerusalem. That is the teaching of the Bible.
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I told you to read the scriptures yourself and find out what the Bible says about spiritual gifts. Which is what we all should be doing. I will copy and paste what I wrote myself to @TokiEl as a response to you. "I know exactly who I copy paste from because I have heard them speak on those topics for years. There is nothing wrong with copy pasting something I've already read and known about for years. No one will make me think I'm doing anything wrong when I'm not. You will not make me feel inferior. Do you understand?" So its really not ironic at all.
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Dalit
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As for prophecy, in my opinion and experience, it has been more about forthtelling Scripture (the right word(s) from the Word to fit the situation) than foretelling the future. I've heard both definitions of it: 1. foretelling and 2. forthtelling. Yet sometimes both are called a word of knowledge. To me, a word needs to point to Jesus/Yeshua, the Living Word.
As for tongues, it can and has been faked and some well-meaning people have operated in a Kundalini spirit (see Andrew Strom's work on YouTube and his book Kundalini Warning among others). Here's the test for me. Some of the most seemingly "spiritually gifted" people have been complete elitist jerks. Real tongues leads to good fruit, the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, etc.
Hope this isn't opening a can of worms, yet I feel almost duty-bound to show how gifts and fruit go together. Why is 1 Corinthians 13 between chapter 12 and 14 about the gifts? Because without love, gifts are useless.
As for tongues, it can and has been faked and some well-meaning people have operated in a Kundalini spirit (see Andrew Strom's work on YouTube and his book Kundalini Warning among others). Here's the test for me. Some of the most seemingly "spiritually gifted" people have been complete elitist jerks. Real tongues leads to good fruit, the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, etc.
Hope this isn't opening a can of worms, yet I feel almost duty-bound to show how gifts and fruit go together. Why is 1 Corinthians 13 between chapter 12 and 14 about the gifts? Because without love, gifts are useless.
There are no real tongues today, because there is no Israel today, in God's eyes. Israel was set aside in Acts 28:28, when the Salvation of God (Jesus Christ) was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles, who never had Jesus Christ during Acts (Eph 2:11-12). The Gifts in Acts were given to Israel, only, at Pentecost. After 8 years, in Ac 10, with Cornelius, the first Gentile was allowed to share in some of the blessings given only to Israel, for the SOLE PURPOSE of provoking Israel to jealousy, so they might repent. These blessings were given to some Gentiles who were grafted into Israel, and were, therefore part of Israel. NO ONE is part of Israel today, since Israel doesn't exist;
There is no mention of tongues in the 7 all-Gentile epistles written AFTER Acts by Paul. In them, we find 3 places that prove Paul was unable to heal any longer (Phil 2:26-27, 2Tim 4:20, 1Tim 5:23), although, at the very end of Acts, he was unaffected by a poisonous snake bite, and he could heal anyone with an ailment, (Ac 28:3-6, Ac 28:8-9). Everyone saved in Acts had at least one Gift. Paul probably had all 9, but there is no evidence that he had even 1 or them, after Acts was finished and Israel was no longer God's people (Hos 1:9).
Why did it take Strom 30 years in the Charismatic/Pentecostal church system to figure out that evil spirits were present in those churches. Actually, evil spirits have been the total backbone of that movement since it started on Azuza Street in LA, in 1906. Nothing in those churches is real. I know it seems real to the experience of the deluded participants, but experience is the world's most undependable guide to truth. Those churches are owned by Satan, lock, stock, and barrel. None of the fake Gifts are even similar to those in 1Corinthians. Those churches are Satan's playground.
I wasted about 6 hours a week with a favorite aunt, for 2 years, in services in those churches. We went to many famous "gifts" churches in Houston, the fake "gifts" capital of the world, the city where Osteen and 1000s of other fake preachers preach their heresies, and they all get rich doing it. I knew, beforehand, what the real gifts were, as described in the Bible. I was basically an observer and, of the 100s of attempted healings, tongues, prohecies, etc., I witnessed, I NEVER saw ANY that were even similar to those in the Bible. The real ones in the Bible also had proofs that could be examined by the senses. The healings occurred immediately and people that didn't speak the language of the preacher, HEARD what was preached in their own language.
In these Satanic churches, things like healings or prophecy are events you hear about, but never see. All here-say, NEVER something you actually witness. The purpose of the real gifts in the Bible was 100% for the witness to unbelieving Israel, who required signs and wonders before they would repent and accept Christ (1Cor 1:22). That was the ONLY PURPOSE of the Gifts in Acts. When God tired of Israel's disbelief, after 4 years in the Gospels and 33 years in Acts, he shut them down and, at the same time, He shut everything associated with Israel down - the Acts church, the rapture, and the Gifts, to name just a few. None of these things have been available to ANYONE living since about 63AD. When the 2 days (2000 years) of Hos 6:2 is finished in about 2063, Israel will be back in God's Graces and the fulfillment of OT prophecy, which hasn't occurred once in the last 1955 years, will start once again.
Todd
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Then why did Paul speak about tongues in letters written to gentile churches?
If you're talking about those 7 Epistles written during Acts, those weren't Gentile churches. They were 100% Jewish churches, since every Gentile member was part of Israel, being grafted into Israel. The only one of Paul's Acts epistles written entirely to Gentiles was Galatians, grafted-in Gentiles that belonged to the all-Jewish Acts church. The other Acts epistles, Rom, 1&2Cor, and 1&2Thess, all have separate sections to the Jews and sections to the Gentiles, because Paul ALWAYS went to the Jew first. When the Jews didn't listen, he went to the Gentiles.
The first Gentile allowed in wasn't until 8 years after Pentecost, in Ac 10. The gospel of the grace of God that was preached by Paul to the Gentiles was that the Gentiles could share in a few of Israel's blessings without having to keep the law. To do that, they had to keep the 4 ordinances that were given to them at the big meeting in Acts 15. The Gentiles had no blessings of their own in Acts. Acts was an extension of Christ's ministry in the Gospels and the Gospels were an extension of the OT - ALL 3 periods, a total of 2000 (+/-) years were ALL- ISRAEL. The ONLY purpose of Gentiles in Acts was so they might provoke Israel to the point that they might convert and Christ would then quickly return. He said in Mt 23:39, that He wouldn't return until Israel accepted Him- also see Ac 3:19-20. They still haven't accepted Christ and, since they don't exist, in God's eyes and won't, until this Gentile period is over, about 45 years from now. Also, He won't return intil the 7 years time of Jacob's trouble is over. So, at a minimum, Christ won'r be coming back for at least 52 years. That old wives tale about Him returning ar any moment is certainly not Biblical.
Note what Paul said in Ac 26;22, about one year before Acts ended. EVERYTHING Paul taught during Acts, to Jews and Gentiles, has it's basis in the 100% Jewish OT
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
AFTER Acts, NOTHING in the doctrine found in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles is found in the OT. Why? Because everything in those 7 books was written, before the world began, in the form of a Mystery, a secret, HID in God.
Eph 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Col 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
This Mystery was given to Paul in a revelation from Jesus Christ, like everything else he taught and wrote
Eph 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Except for Christ, NOTHING EVER given to Israel, in the 59, all-Israel books, was given to Gentiles, today. This includes the Acts Church, the Rapture, and the Gifts. Nothing in those 59 books will tell us anything about what belongs to us Gentiles, what our Calling and Hope of our Calling are, or anything about our future. We are an island surrounded by Israel, but this island has no doctrinal tracks into it or out of it. Our doctrine comes solely from what is contained in that Mystery and our doctrine comes ONLY from what's in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles, which contains no tongues, no healing, no prophecy, no gifts, period.
There is no Israel today, in God's eyes. They are Loammi, not My people, Hos 1:9. They will always have to keep the law and, if they don't keep the law, they are not God's people. They can't keep the law without a temple or animal sacrifices. If they want to get saved today, they must essentially become Gentiles and believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. When Israel ceased to exist as a nation, in God's eyes, in 63AD, the Gifts also ceased to exist. What were these gifts? They were what Joel had prophesied in the all-Israel OT - FOR ISRAEL. I think that they were the New Covenant kicking in, and, if Israel had repented, they would still exist - FOR ISRAEL Of course, the 2000 year Gentile program of today wouldn't have existed. The NC belonged ONLY to Israel, Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:8. The Gentiles in Acts share in the Gifts of the NC, but ONLY because they were grafted into Israel. They certainly aren't grafted in today and they share NOTHING given to Israel, including the Gifts.
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Dalit
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This is an excellent point and I do agree with this as one who has been fooled by the repetitive music sung by attractive, happy people and the preaching of charismatic men, etc.
Yet, despite all my experience in this, from childhood even, I still believe the gifts can be for today? I say this hesitantly because, like you and others, I've seen a truckload of abuse in them. I was deep into the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), which I, thanks be to God, now know is wrong yet holds so many people captive to running here and there and everywhere for their next spiritual high.
I speak in tongues privately to God and was made uncomfortable in a NAR church I attended almost 2 years because they persuaded me and others to be more vocal with tongues. So that means we need interpretation. The interpretation was rather vague and generalized and what one person thought it was didn't exactly mesh with what another person thought it was, but then everyone acted like it was all good, that there's room for practice and willing suspension of disbelief.
I got to where I saw the line between real and counterfeit was blurred and even tested it a little, speaking a vain imagination out of sincerity even though I knew in my spirit it was not a word but just off the wall stuff. Here's the thing. No one called me on it. I got a weird look but the lady was like "okay" and the man, a friend of mine at that time, was off in his weird little world or something, claiming to be drunk on the spirit. I realized people could say anything and say "I think this is a word from God for you" and no one was tested in this. It says in the Bible to test the spirits (1 John 4) and even in the gifts chapters of 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 to test prophecy. It's 1 Corinthians 14:29: "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment." That would be testing, right? I saw none of this happening. You could make stuff up and say it's in God's name and others would often say "Ooh, that's good. I receive that!"
It was thought by some that I had a gift of healing. Because of this, I was asked to lay hands on people and pray for them, often before I had a chance to get alone with the Lord and pray "should I pray for this person's healing?" I wish I had voiced my discomfort and left sooner, but I didn't. Pardon my crudeness here, but I almost felt like this group wanted to pimp me out for healing. So glad I got away from this mess! That group, not all charismatic groups, was certainly following doctrines of demons at the worst and attracting unstable people at best. So what did that say of me at that time? Ha ha.
When I got out, I still communicated with one still there, the drunk on the spirit man, but realized I had to cut that tie, too. And honestly, when I decided to leave and left as quietly as I could, I really think an evil spirit left me, one I didn't even know I had. I had had debilitating vertigo and it left. I sought medical care for it and was told nothing was wrong with me. Once I repented and dedicated my life to Jesus again and said I didn't want the gifts unless they were real and from Him, I meant it. So I didn't pray in tongues for over a year. I honestly think it is a private prayer language and a powerful one because it confuses the enemy, the devil, hasatan, etc.
Sorry for the long testimony. There is more I'd like to say, but need to think about how to address the Israel question. I still think they play a role today, the true believers are Jews and Gentiles and as Gentiles we've been grafted in (Romans 11), yet don't feel I can do it justice right now.
Todah!
When the Bible talks about speaking in tongues, it means speaking in different languages. The purpose of speaking in tongues is to preach the Gospel to people who speak in different languages. Its not meant to be used in private prayer. God gives spiritual gifts for blessing and ministering to others. They are given for God’s work. His power gives us the ability to spread the Gospel.
Not all true.
Evidently, Paul prayed in tongues. But only before the end of Acts. After Acts, since the gifts no longer exist, no matter what anyone says about their subjective experiences, there is no Biblical evidence that any of the Gifts are now active. Satan maintains the lie, that they're still for today, in order to keep people in the books of Acts, thus preventing them from SEEING the Hope of their Calling in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles, which will prevent them from going to Heaven, which is only obtainable through Faith..
1Cor 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Note that the word "unknown", when associated with tongues, never appears in the texts. It's been added by man.
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