"Soy Boys", "Toxic Masculinity" - what does it even mean to be a "Real Man"?

[irrationalNinja]

In the following interview, Dr. Jordan Peterson discusses the radical left’s motivations in creating a term like “toxic masculinity” as a valid definition of maleness.

It’s easy to mistake masculine competence for the tyranny that hypothetically drives “the patriarchy.” It’s part of an ideological worldview that sees the entire history of mankind as the oppression of women by men... A very pathological way of looking at the world.
—Jordan Peterson

 

[mecca]

a term like “toxic masculinity” as a valid definition of maleness

Toxic masculinity is not a definition of maleness. It is a descriptor for the harmful things in society that are passed off as masculine to boys. It's when boys are taught that "real men don't cry" or that males are violent by nature. The word "toxic" is a descriptor and an adjective for a specific type of masculinity in our society. Removing the toxic ideas that are taught to children in our society can leave us with beneficial and positive expressions of masculinity (and femininity), free from harmful sexist stereotypes. Using the word doesn't mean that men are toxic in any way.

We use the word "toxic gas" to describe gas that is toxic... but no one thinks it means that all gas is toxic. It's an adjective for a specific type of gas that is harmful. But you're a self proclaimed irrational, so I don't think you will understand anything even when it's explained simply.

 

[Vytas]

If you think anyone here is your "enemy" you really need to step away from these forums for a bit. Since we're all on the same side.

Are you kidding me ?

 

[Corvus Metus]

Are you kidding me ?

No. It's us ("the people") vs. them ("the system") and the vast majority of people here are part of the people. Just because they don't believe all the same things you believe doesn't mean they aren't on your side. I've know all sorts of people in my life that opposed the system. Devout Christians, agnostics, new age believers, chaos magicians, atheists... If you start thinking someone is your enemy just because they call you on on views you disagree with doesn't mean shit.

 

[Vytas]

System is created by people, and those people have certain beliefs too. If certain person is in agreement with general narratives and propagandas imposed on us by people who hide behind the word "system" they clearly aren't on the "same side".
That being said i do not see enemies in other people, but agendas are being pushed hard here by certain groups, and is easy to see. Same side? Pfff i doubt some here could behave in same room...

 

[irrationalNinja]

Toxic masculinity is not a definition of maleness. It is a descriptor for the harmful things in society that are passed off as masculine to boys. It's when boys are taught that "real men don't cry" or that males are violent by nature. The word "toxic" is a descriptor and an adjective for a specific type of masculinity in our society. Removing the toxic ideas that are taught to children in our society can leave us with beneficial and positive expressions of masculinity (and femininity), free from harmful sexist stereotypes. Using the word doesn't mean that men are toxic in any way.

We use the word "toxic gas" to describe gas that is toxic... but no one thinks it means that all gas is toxic. It's an adjective for a specific type of gas that is harmful. But you're a self proclaimed irrational, so I don't think you will understand anything even when it's explained simply.

Thank you for that radical leftist taradiddle.

 

[justjess]

System is created by people, and those people have certain beliefs too. If certain person is in agreement with general narratives and propagandas imposed on us by people who hide behind the word "system" they clearly aren't on the "same side".
That being said i do not see enemies in other people, but agendas are being pushed hard here by certain groups, and is easy to see. Same side? Pfff i doubt some here could behave in same room...

And this is why the system will always win... instead of looking for commonalities some insist on focusing only on what divides.

 

[Vytas]

And this is why the system will always win... instead of looking for commonalities some insist on focusing only on what divides.

System will win because we are under full surveillance and there are troops with automatic guns disguised as coops everywhere.

Focusing or seeing it as it is ? Some differences are too big to overcome...For example :

So someone can come to you and say " im a p***phile". That doesnt mean he/she is dangerous, that doesnt mean they are rapists or creeps. They are simply telling you what stimulates them.

Yes

I would not sit in same room with those two...

 

[Faker He-Man]

Men and boys who are naturally masculine and less emotional

This seems to be based on an old stereotype that does not reflect reality in a true sense. No male is "less emotional" than any other per se, the obvious personal difference is whether a man a has more introverted or extroverted method of processing their emotions.

In reality, nothing is more indicative of emotionally insecure man-child than an extroverted male who must suppress his emotions at every turn. This is done in avoidance of his own sense of vulnerability which is perceived as deeply threatening to a "masculine" self-image.

 

[justjess]

No, not everyone is a bleeding heart. But the message preached to boys from birth is that it is not manly to have emotions - in many boys/men this creates an unhealthy suppression of emotion that erupts in other toxic or potentially dangerous ways (even if only towards themselves aka drug use as one example- look at who’s been most effected by the recent opiate epidemic for example)

Men need to know it’s okay to feel emotions and to express those emotions, and taught a healthy way to do so. If they don’t have them that’s fine and this becomes a non point but for the very many who do this is necessary and up until now that is not the way we have taught them. Maybe the last ten/twenty years there’s been some change in this and as a result we see older males looking at younger males calling them such nonsense as “soy boys”. Please connect the dots.

As for the quoted p***phile conversation, not all pedophiles act on their desires. Just like not all homosexuals act on theirs. Just like not all married people act on theirs. There is nothing inherently wrong with what Mecca said and why you would not want to sit in a room with her as a result.. I don’t understand personally.

The elite will win because they can keep us divided over trivial nonsense like this. Yeah their technology helps but there is still great strength in numbers and there are far more of us then of them. If we could get past what divides us and stand together we might at least stand a chance.

 

[justjess]

If you are currently in university then you are of a generation where the hardlined attitudes towards boys and emotions already started shifting, you are a beneficiary of that. 20 years older and the world and your place in it would have looked very different.. you are privileged to have the ability to know that there is a range of emotional ability and expressiveness among men and all are okay.

Embrace that privilege and maybe feel some empathy to the men only somewhat older than you who were called sissies and faggots if they cried when someone they loved died, who were hit by their fathers for not being stoic enough in the face of disappointment. Above all, thank your mom.

 

[justjess]

I can see where they're coming from though because the difference is that even if gay or married people were to give in to their desires, their actions would only affect themselves (debatable on the part of the married person obviously). A paedophile however has no healthy, safe means of fulfilling their desires. Sometimes stigmas should exist for a reason. Now, in no way am I advocating a witch hunt for non-practising paedophiles. But I am saying that trying to normalise the attraction as innate and "okay" as long as they don't act on it is a dangerous thing. I can't blame people for getting vitriolic when the discussion of someone attracted to children comes up because unlike non-heterosexual attractions that revolve around adults, there are innocent children involved whose lives could be ruined if pity extends too far.

I’ve never ever seen Mecca try to my realize p***philia or have any sort of empathy for them.

No one is trying to normalize by simply acknowledging there are people who feel that way, and further that not all act on it. Both are facts of reality. If we demonize these people to the farthest extent it lowers the likelihood that they reach out and get help before hurting someone.

The ones who offend go straight ahead and castrate them, I’m all for it. I’m willing to bet I’ve sat in a room with more pedophiles then anyone else here, I have no love for them at all.

 

[Corvus Metus]

System is created by people, and those people have certain beliefs too. If certain person is in agreement with general narratives and propagandas imposed on us by people who hide behind the word "system" they clearly aren't on the "same side".
That being said i do not see enemies in other people, but agendas are being pushed hard here by certain groups, and is easy to see. Same side? Pfff i doubt some here could behave in same room...

Alternatively, people have different opinions on certain topics and think that certain ideas hurt the cause. I don't hold a fatalistic worldview, with the idea that we're all screwed by the powers that be. I believe these powers are ultimately earthly powers, therefor can be toppled... But it's not going to happen unless we stick together and stop judging each other as long as we're all working to a more free world.

Division is their weapon. Unity is ours. And as long as we have people judging people based on who they sleep with, what gender they identify as, or what religion (or lack of one) someone has we're never going to have unity. With unity, we could win.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Thank you for that radical leftist taradiddle.

Her words are correct.... but they way they interpret them into reality does not match up with their rhetoric.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

This seems to be based on an old stereotype that does not reflect reality in a true sense. No male is "less emotional" than any other per se, the obvious personal difference is whether a man a has more introverted or extroverted method of processing their emotions.

In reality, nothing is more indicative of emotionally insecure man-child than an extroverted male who must suppress his emotions at every turn. This is done in avoidance of his own sense of vulnerability which is perceived as deeply threatening to a "masculine" self-image.

Stereotype or nature defined gender roles? In the video I posted where Russel Means and his wife are interviewed, both of them are clear that males require nurturing their whole lives as-per the Matriarchal perspective. I know that blows a lot of gaskets within the modern feminist crowd, but life is a give and take proposition......

 

[mecca]

Men and boys who are naturally masculine and less emotional are told their character is a result of social engineering.

All humans are different and have different levels of expression for different traits, everyone understands this and I don't see anyone denying this. There are some men who are naturally less emotional just as there are women who are naturally less emotional as well... this isn't focused on because it's not a problem, it's really not the point. The point is that society constantly pushes the idea that men should not express their emotions at all. All men are influenced by this... everyone in society is affected by these ideas, even a man who is naturally less expressive. Addressing this fact doesn't erase the people who are naturally less expressive, no one is telling them that they are only a result of social engineering, they're just pointing out how society affects everyone.

The definition for what even constitutes masculinity is already shrouded in contention, so what is "toxic" for one person is not necessarily so for another.

It is objectively harmful to tell boys that men are violent by nature... or that they should not express their emotions. These exact ideas lead directly to repression, violence, and anger... it's unhealthy. It's not really subjective, these are real issues that have been identified across the board that are harmful to men and boys (and consequently women)... You can call it whatever you want, I don't even typically use the term "toxic masculinity", but these issues need to be addressed and resolved.

it's the vocal minority who get to project their views to the public and more often than not, their broad rhetoric does not make a distinction between "toxic" masculinity and maleness.

Feminists do make a distinction, that's precisely why they address these issues as specifically "toxic masculinity" and point out that they are a result of sexist social conditioning. The problem is not due to men or their "maleness", the problem is with what some of the things that society considers to be masculine. There are some harmful ideas that are encouraged as masculine and they really shouldn't be. Society pushes harmful ideas onto children about what they should be or do and it leads to major issues. What feminists want to do is remove these toxic and harmful ideas so that children can grow up and be able to express themselves positively and healthily without any sexism holding them back or causing issues. Once you get rid of the toxic ideas, you are left with a positive expression of masculinity and femininity.

 

[mecca]

I would not sit in same room with those two...

What is your problem? I was actually disagreeing with Valerian in our conversation but you conveniently cut out the entirety of my comment except the part where I said "yes". Lmao, if you're going to act this way, then I wouldn't want to hang out with you either.

 

[mecca]

Her words are correct.... but they way they interpret them into reality does not match up with their rhetoric.

What do you mean? Who is "they"? What I said is correct and I said it exactly how I meant it. It is interpreted into reality in the same way... when people use the phrase "toxic masculinity", they are referring to the harmful and sexist ideas that are taught to boys about what is masculine, they are not calling men toxic.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

What do you mean? Who is "they"? What I said is correct and I said it exactly how I meant it. It is interpreted into reality in the same way... when people use the phrase "toxic masculinity", they are referring to the harmful and sexist ideas that are taught to boys about what is masculine, they are not calling men toxic.

You lied about me in a thread in which you were defending/minimizing clearly satanic media. You never bothered to address that. You continue to spill your garbage in that thread and elsewhere so please respect my last communication with you which was my request you dont interact with me. I realize my reply to the other poster was regarding your words, but I dont see any reason for you and myself to further interact personally.

 

[mecca]

You lied about me in a thread in which you were defending/minimizing clearly satanic media.

Ok can you tell me what I lied about? I have not defended or minimized any clearly satanic media.