Some simple questions about the "trinity" that no "Christian" seems to be able to answer

A Freeman

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For man, of course not, but with God, nothing is impossible...do you not believe the Word of God?
Shouldn't you be asking yourself that question? If you believed God, then you would KNOW that He can NEVER be a flesh and blood human, nor the Son of Man, exactly as He said.

Numbers 23:19 God [is] not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do [it]? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?

Did Christ not tell us the same thing?

John 4:22-24
4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship THE FATHER in Spirit and in Truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.
4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship [Him] with their spirit (Being) and in Truth.

John 1:1-5 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Amen. None of the above passage is claiming that Jesus allegedly is or was God.

That is why Christ plainly and repeatedly told us that He is only the Son of God, that His Father is GREATER THAN he (Christ) is, that Father is his (Christ's) God, that Father SENT him (Christ) and that while he (Christ) was here in the body of Jesus, he (Christ-Jesus) repeatedly referred to himself as "the Son of Man", something that God Himself plainly said He could NEVER be.

Christ also prayed to his Father and his God, and instructed us to do the same.

That's at least two hundred verses, most of which were spoken by Christ through the mouth of Jesus.

Only someone who doesn't believe Christ or His Father (God) could be so easily misled into believing John 1:1-14 somehow contradicts both Father (God) and His Christ.

None of us could ever comprehend the power of the Godhead. But I suspect that if the power of one person of the Godhead is between 0.01 to 0.99, the power of any of His creations (including man, angels, etc.) is perhaps any number you could think of to the 'negative infinity' in comparison.
Father (God) has told us He is All-Powerful All the time. But for someone who doesn't believe Him, how will they believe His Word (Truth)?
 
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Axl888

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Amen. None of the above passage is claiming that Jesus allegedly is or was God.
So you are saying that apostle John is not talking about Jesus Christ on those verses and that the Word (was God) is not Jesus Christ?

If you say yes, then I give up...I hope and pray God will give you discernment.
 

A Freeman

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So you are saying that apostle John is not talking about Jesus Christ on those verses and that the Word (was God) is not Jesus Christ?
What does the word "word" mean? A word is a means to convey a message, isn't it?

And what is God's Message? TRUTH.

Is the Bible not the Word of God (in writing)?

Is verbally citing the Bible not speaking the Word of God?

Is God SENDING His Messenger to deliver His Message of Truth in ANY form not also The Word of God?

Christ was sent in the body of Jesus to serve as a flesh and blood Example of The Word of God. Should we not be following God's Word in ALL of its forms?

John 1:1 is telling us that God's MESSAGE OF TRUTH - in ALL of its forms - has been with God since the beginning of time (time began with God's first creation).

Anyone who arbitrarily attempts to substitute one form of the Word into John 1:1 in such a way that it renders that verse contrary to the rest of Scripture is in obvious error. How can we be certain of that error?

Because the Word NEVER contradicts itself when properly translated, properly read and properly understood.

Christ plainly stated at least seven times that he (Christ) has a God and that His Father is God.

IF one truly believes Christ, then they cannot believe John 1:1-14 is somehow claiming Christ (or Jesus) is God when Christ plainly stated that Father is his (Christ's) God and The God of us all.

To believe otherwise is to believe a strong delusion (that Father and His Christ are somehow liars).


If you say yes, then I give up...I hope and pray God will give you discernment.
Have you considered the log in your own eye that prevents you from seeing this clearly?

God truly is The Father (Creator) of Christ, whom Father created FIRST (Col. 1:12-15, Rev. 3:14), exactly as Father says in His Word. That's why Father is Christ's God too, exactly as the Word says.

Peace be upon you.
 
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A Freeman

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For those who may be conned into believing that just because a belief is held by the majority, it allegedly must be true, please consider the following:

1) knowing that this world is FILLED with evil and deceit, our Creator has given us the following COMMAND in His Law:

Exodus 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to [do] evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to agree falsely with the majority and thereby pervert [judgment]:

2) Christ similarly told us that the overwhelming majority will not find The Way home, but instead are heading for destruction.

Matthew 7:13-14
7:13 Enter ye in at the "Strait" gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because Strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] The Way, which leadeth unto Life, and few there be that find it.

Even here on Earth, this kind of backward thinking is considered totally illogical, and is commonly referred to as the bandwagon logical fallacy.

2000 years ago when Christ visited in the body of Jesus, there were only 12 men who recognized Him, dropped everything they were doing and followed Him. And one of those eventually betrayed Him (rejoined the evil majority).

Why would this time be any different?

The worldly, majority opinion is usually, if not always, wrong. Follow Father's Command and avoid it.
 
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Alanantic

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For those who may be conned into believing that just because a belief is held by the majority, it allegedly must be true, please consider the following:

1) knowing that this world is FILLED with evil and deceit, our Creator has given us the following COMMAND in His Law:

Exodus 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to [do] evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to agree falsely with the majority and thereby pervert [judgment]:

2) Christ similarly told us that the overwhelming majority will not find The Way home, but instead are heading for destruction.

Matthew 7:13-14
7:13 Enter ye in at the "Strait" gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because Strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] The Way, which leadeth unto Life, and few there be that find it.

Even here on Earth, this kind of backward thinking is considered totally illogical, and is commonly referred to as the bandwagon logical fallacy.

2000 years ago when Christ visited in the body of Jesus, there were only 12 men who recognized Him, dropped everything they were doing and followed Him. And one of those eventually betrayed Him (rejoined the evil majority).

Why would this time be any different?

The worldly, majority opinion is usually, if not always, wrong. Follow Father's Command and avoid it.
I have a conscience. I follow my heart, not some religion's "commands". Why can't you people think for yourself? All you people do is point to your book and say, "This is what I believe." You've given up your personal wills to the whims of some ancient texts found thousands of years ago.

"If you take the Christian Bible and put it out into the rain, wind and snow, it will soon dissolve. Our religion IS the rain, wind and snow." -- Native American medicine woman.
 

A Freeman

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I have a conscience.
What you call a conscience is actually our Creator (The Great Spirit) offering spiritual guidance in the moment.

No one on this planet had EVER had an original thought. All thoughts come from one of two sources: Good (God) or evil (the devil/Satan/Iblis). Our gift of free-will is to choose between the two.

The only thing that cons people into believing otherwise is the ego/self.

I follow my heart, not some religion's "commands".
The Commands are from our Creator (not some satanic organized religion), given to us to protect us from evil and to set and keep us free. The heart is desperately wicked (emotion); who can know it?

Why can't you people think for yourself?
Wouldn't one need to know what thinking actually is before asking that question?

What most refer to as "thinking" is actually linking to our Creator telepathically. Unfortunately, most human+Beings are so self-absorbed that they are easily conned into believing they came up with the answer to their question on their own, so quickly forgetting they didn't know the answer moments before, when they asked.

All you people do is point to your book and say, "This is what I believe."
Upon careful inspection of what's been shared in this thread, it should be self-evident that while people do point to the Book, most clearly don't believe what it says, choosing instead to believe their organized religion and its doctrines and dogma instead (all of which were created by Satan through our egos).

You've given up your personal wills to the whims of some ancient texts found thousands of years ago.
Is truth a whim? Does truth have an expiration date? Is there anything more precious in a world filled with lies than the truth?

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
--Henry David Thoreau

"If you take the Christian Bible and put it out into the rain, wind and snow, it will soon dissolve. Our religion IS the rain, wind and snow." -- Native American medicine woman.
The Great Spirit said, "It is up to you, if you are willing to live My poor, humble and simple life way. It is hard but if you agree to live according to My teachings and instructions, if you never lose faith in the life I shall give you, you may come and live with Me."

- Chief Dan Evehema, (105) Spiritual leader, Eldest Elder Greeswood / Roadrunner Clan.
From Hotevilla, Arizona, Hopi Sovereign Nation.
 
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Alanantic

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What you call a conscience is actually our Creator (The Great Spirit) offering spiritual guidance in the moment.

No one on this planet had EVER had an original thought. All thoughts come from one of two sources: Good (God) or evil (the devil/Satan/Iblis). Our gift of free-will is to choose between the two.

The only thing that cons people into believing otherwise is the ego/self.


The Commands are from our Creator (not some satanic organized religion), given to us to protect us from evil and to set and keep us free. The heart is desperately wicked (emotion); who can know it?


Wouldn't one need to know what thinking actually is before asking that question?

What most refer to as "thinking" is actually linking to our Creator telepathically. Unfortunately, most human+Beings are so self-absorbed that they are easily conned into believing they came up with the answer to their question on their own, so quickly forgetting they didn't know the answer moments before, when they asked.


Upon careful inspection of what's been shared in this thread, it should be self-evident that while people do point to the Book, most clearly don't believe what it says, choosing instead to believe their organized religion and its doctrines and dogma instead (all of which were created by Satan through our egos).


Is truth a whim? Does truth have an expiration date? Is there anything more precious in a world filled with lies than the truth?

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
--Henry David Thoreau


The Great Spirit said, "It is up to you, if you are willing to live My poor, humble and simple life way. It is hard but if you agree to live according to My teachings and instructions, if you never lose faith in the life I shall give you, you may come and live with Me."

- Chief Dan Evehema, (105) Spiritual leader, Eldest Elder Greeswood / Roadrunner Clan.
From Hotevilla, Arizona, Hopi Sovereign Nation.
I have no reason to believe any god gives commands.

"Religion is for those not strong enough to stand up to the fear of the unknown alone." -- Robert Heinlein
 

A Freeman

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I have no reason to believe any god gives commands.

"Religion is for those not strong enough to stand up to the fear of the unknown alone." -- Robert Heinlein
‘No human laws should be suffered to contradict [God’s] laws … Nay, if any human law should allow or enjoin us to commit it, we are bound to transgress that human law, or else we must offend both the natural and the divine.’
- William Blackstone

"where there is no law, there is no freedom"
- John Locke
 

Alanantic

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‘No human laws should be suffered to contradict [God’s] laws … Nay, if any human law should allow or enjoin us to commit it, we are bound to transgress that human law, or else we must offend both the natural and the divine.’
- William Blackstone

"where there is no law, there is no freedom"
- John Locke
I obey the laws of Nature. How's that.
 

A Freeman

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I obey the laws of Nature. How's that.
Are you sure about that? The Laws of Nature ARE our Creator' Law. There is no other.

From the United States Declaration of Independence:

Introduction

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature AND OF NATURE'S GOD entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

Preamble

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

-------

The basic, fundamental tenet of our Creator's Law is a prohibition of theft, in every form (theft is a crime).

ALL man-made legislation, rules, policies, "codes", religious doctrines, etc. are an attempt to circumvent this basic tenet, I.e. to "legalize" theft for the rule-makers. Taxes, licenses, fees, etc. imposed by UNNATURAL, man-made corporate fictional governments are readily recognizable forms of theft.

The same is true of unlawful usury (interest), collected by the banksters under similarly UNNATURAL, made-up rules, which have plunged the entire world into debt slavery, poverty and oppression. The same slavery, injustice and oppression which made the magic virus scam possible, and which has brought us to the next phase of the unlawful depopulation agenda: WW3.

All because of our individual and collective insanity in believing we know better than Nature and Nature's God how to run this planet, which we seem hell-bent on destroying, along with each other.

War is "legalized" murder, which is the unlawful theft of the human life of another. And this third and final war will prove to everyone beyond any reasonable doubt that, left to our own devices and made-up rules, no flesh would be saved.

Exactly as prophesied thousands of years ago in that "ancient text" of extraterrestrial origin that just so happens to have a flawless track record of accurately predicting future events.
 
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Alanantic

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Are you sure about that? The Laws of Nature ARE our Creator' Law. There is no other.

Now prove that without a word of scripture.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
 

A Freeman

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A Freeman said:
Are you sure about that? The Laws of Nature ARE our Creator' Law. There is no other.

Now prove that without a word of scripture.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
Isn't this another feeble attempt to make up your own rules yet again, deciding what does and doesn't constitute evidence in your(?) mind, as if you are the judge?

The Scripture is an accurate historical record of our behavior over the past 6000 years, shining a light on how we have been blessed when we have even marginally kept Father's (God's) Law (e.g., as happened under the reigns of king David and king Solomon), and how we have punished ourselves when we haven't.

"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light."
-Plato

You blindly ask for evidence, while arbitrarily removing the evidence you believe does the most damage to your assumptions. That logical fallacy is commonly referred to as "cherry-picking". Isn't that ample evidence that you are in no position to judge another, or even have a basic understanding of right and wrong?

Men have adopted one of Father's COMMANDments from His Law, by restating murder is a crime. How would one go about proving that murder is a crime, if they were prohibited from presenting written evidence that murder (unlawful killing) is a crime? Yes, we all should intuitively know that murder is a crime, but given the fact that most have no concept anymore of what is right and what is wrong, can you really not see how totally illogical and hypocritical your request actually is?

Nevertheless, we have an entire universe FILLED with evidence of obedience to Father's Law.

The stars and planets obey His Law. The sun rises and sets each day in a logical, predictable fashion. The stars keep their courses as do the planets, so that the passage of time is uniform and predictable, proving its design.

On Earth, every season brings with it the cycle of life and the built-in lessons that go along with the seasons. The plants and animals coexist in a perfectly balanced, symbiotic/interdependent relationship with each other, and with their Creator, also obedient to His Law.

The fittest survive, breeding out the imperfections to make and keep each species as strong and healthy as it can be.

The only exception to this is mankind, who makes up his own rules and works AGAINST Nature and Nature's God (Father) in virtually everything we do.

We make UNNATURAL combinations of chemicals and then use them to poison each other and our natural surroundings. We intentionally attack our source of O2 by clear-cutting the forests and poisoning the oceans with toxic chemicals and toxic waste. We genetically modify the plants and crops to make them INFERIOR, which in turn makes the plants, and the animals and humans that eat them, sick and sicker. And we create this needless suffering and carry on this totally insane destruction of our life-support system for money, so we can continue to work as slaves at jobs we hate, to buy more things we don't need, so we can become even more proficient at destroying all life (plant, animal and human) on Earth.

When all of the trees are cut down;
When all of the rivers and lakes are polluted;
When all of the fish have been caught from the sea;
Only then will you realize that money cannot be eaten.


-old Cree Indian saying

And, as previously shared, this selfish, stupid, and self-destructive behavior is the exact result of us doing whatever we want instead of learning to work WITH Nature and WiTH Nature's God, exactly as we've been COMMANDED to do in His Law.

So you are literally and physically surrounded by the evidence you seek. Are you really unable to see it? Or are you intentionally ignoring the evidence so that you can continue to feed your ego, which has conned you into believing it's in a position to judge?

The ONLY Way to end this unnecessary and destructive division and conflict is for everyone to UNITE under a single standard of right and wrong, so that we can peacefully coexist with each other and our natural surroundings.

And that single standard is The Law that our Creator gave us, to set and keep us free, so that we might LIVE at ONE with the rest of the universe.

Those who continue to rebel against Nature and Nature's God are not spiritually fit, and thus will NOT survive. That is the natural order of all things.
 
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The Sojourner

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In my opinion, if people (myself included) spent more time studying the theme of Redemption, contemplating the question of sin, etc we wouldn't be baffled by all this or fall back on the meme that OM posted.

Sin, obviously began in heaven with Lucifer's rebellion, and in it's wake not only created a schism and distortion in the human family (our first parents) but also in their relationship with God. Inorder to redeem man, a subordination had to occur within the God-head...I will be his Father and He will be my Son (Heb 1:5)
Whatever agreements They had in their counsels, Christ had to come to earth, to restore man's relationship with God aswell as the human to human one. Only Christ could bridge that gap because only He, who is the exact representation of the Father's being (Heb 1:3), would be the perfect candidate/representative of the Father to the human family. And after His death and resurrection, He became the perfect advocate for the human family (Job 16:19-21, Heb 5 & 2)

Ofcourse, as a representative of the God-head, Christ isn't just going to talk about Himself all day. He came to show us the Father. Because of sin, the distorted image of God in the human mind had to be corrected through Christ's subordination. That distorted image or understanding often manifests itself today in the form of: "I like Jesus because He's sweet and nice but the God of the OT is always angry and vengeful". In response to Philip's inquiry, Christ responded; Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say show us the Father? (John 14:8-11)

Therefore, Christ praying to the Father isn't evidence against the claim of His divinity. Rather it is stronger evidence for it...as the divine Being who donned human garb inorder bridge the great divide that sin had wrought.


That's the perfect unity that exists within the God-head. The individual will moves in perfect unison...unlike the human marriages where spouses have secret bank accounts, secret dalliances and cite in their divorce filings "ireconcilable differences". You cannot run the vast universe without that perfect unity.
Any action of God the Father is not done without any input or consideration of the Son's. Which is why;
"Through Him all things were made , without Him was nothing made that has been made. (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17)
Thank you for your thoughtful response. My opinion is not that Christ is not divine. It's rather that the trinity doctrine, which is forced, is simply not needed. So what exactly does divinity mean? I looked up a definition:

divine

dĭ-vīn′
adjective
  1. Having the nature of or being a deity.
  2. Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity.
  3. Being in the service or worship of a deity; sacred.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.

According to this definition, the meaning of the term divine, includes "Being in the service or worship of a deity; sacred" and "Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity" and also the first one "Having the nature of or being a deity."

Christ certainly satisfies the definition of being divine. He however does not claim himself to be the head of divinity (God). Paul said the head of Christ is God, and that God was in Christ. So that is not being disputed.

Here is the issue. In order to be considered a Christian, and to be accepted as being one, one has to accept and proclaim to believe their doctrine of the trinity which is Roman Catholic. So, when one reads the scripture one one's own, and does not perceive or experience the words of Christ to be what the RCC's papal doctrine claims, then there arises an issue. According to the RCC trinity doctrine I cannot be saved unless I believe them and hence submit to their authority. I'm not a Christian according to them, because I have chosen to study the scripture and be guided in my own personal understanding without them.

For many this may not be seen as an issue, but for me, it is. I therefore have to choose between Christ's Teaching and the RCC's teaching. And, to top it off, I was not even raised a catholic, but protestant. Yet, the doctrine recited in the protestant church still turns out to be catholic, so how are they truly not catholic, if they are then still in practice being loyal to it by teaching its doctrine as essential?

Are angels of God divine? I don't see it as being against the definition that was found. They are created by Him, are in His service and worship Him. That's within the definition. But in all of this, God is The Creator of it, He is known as The Most High and as The One True God (John 17:3).

So for me it's just much simpler to understand it going by the scriptures themselves and free from being in bondage to church doctrine that does not make sense. It's much more personal and allows me to be able to think, ask, go through my own personal reasoning process, and receive personal answers/Revelation. So, I don't belong the the "group" because of being disqualified and not fitting in, due to not being in agreement with what is said to be the central doctrine of Christianity (according to the RCC). Am I to be loyal to the pope, or to God? I know the answer, I'm sure others would too.

To me, Christ being the Angel/The Son of God sent by Him (rather than being personally God Himself) does not take away at all from Christ being divine, since He is of the Father (The Chosen One of God - John 1:33-34) and was sent by Him. He is the Elect one (Isa 42:1) Appointed by God to be heir of all things (Heb. 1:2) and to be the one mediator between the One God and man (1 Tim. 2:5). For redemption, I think it is more important to focus on the Message and seeking to follow and understand it, rather than getting constantly bogged down and ultimately separated through arguments. In the end we seek to know how we should be and how we should live. We need the Holy Spirit within us to guide us and to me that is at the core of Christ's Teachings.

John 10:31-39
Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’

‘We are not stoning you for any good work,’ they replied, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’

Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your Law, “I have said you are ‘gods’”? If he called them “gods”, to whom the word of God came – and Scripture cannot be set aside – what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, “I am God’s Son”? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.’ Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
So, does that not mean that Christ was saying to them (and to us) that we, in our true spiritual form, are actually divine too (of divine source), but we have lost the awareness of it? We don't behave like it. But if he, the Son of God, is divine, then what of us? Are we not called to be sons and daughters too by the Spirit of adoption? Christ being the First of many brethren. Clearly He is the FIRST as testified to in the scriptures. I think He is teaching us something of ourselves and our true nature. To begin to realise that, we would first need to re-learn to behave like it. But, thoughts like this are probably considered anathema by the RCC. To me it is them giving themselves power, but it is not them, but the truth that sets us free. Is our true nature really human, or, are we in fact spiritual beings? Christ was teaching them (and us) about actually being spiritual (spirit beings) rather than the human nature that we find ourselves inside of. His Jewish opponents didn't like it and found what Christ was saying to them to be contrary to their traditions and beliefs.

An "ex-catholic" (but who even so, still held strongly to catholic doctrinal beliefs and interpretations) once said to me, when we were having this same discussion, that we can't possibly aspire to be like Jesus, because we were not made of the same "stuff" that he was made of. He was made of "God" stuff and we were made of "human" stuff. (How can we then hope to be accounted as Christ's brethren?)
 
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Karlysymon

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Thank you for your thoughtful response. My opinion is not that Christ is not divine. It's rather that the trinity doctrine, which is forced, is simply not needed.
Thank you, aswell

Thoughts??
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Matt 12:31-32

So many countries around the world have blasphemy laws. Do you think laws ciminalizing defaming Christ and the Holyspirit are misplaced?

Is our true nature really human, or, are we in fact spiritual beings? Christ was teaching them (and us) about actually being spiritual (spirit beings) rather than the human nature that we find ourselves inside of. His Jewish opponents didn't like it and found what Christ was saying to them to be contrary to their traditions and beliefs
Man has a spiritual side to himself, otherwise how else would he commune with his Maker, moreso after the separation caused by sin when he couldn't see or communicate physically? Everyone who has been to sunday school has been taught that we have a "God-shaped hole in our hearts that only God can fill."

Thou hast made us for Thyself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee.~ Saint Augustine

St Gregory of Sinai clearly states that forgetfulness of God is a disease of the soul and of the faculty of reason. It has a direct impact on human memory, which ends up divided, diffused and fragmented.


An "ex-catholic" (but who even so, still held strongly to catholic doctrinal beliefs and interpretations) once said to me, when we were having this same discussion, that we can't possibly aspire to be like Jesus, because we were not made of the same "stuff" that he was made of. He was made of "God" stuff and we were made of "human" stuff. (How can we then hope to be accounted as Christ's brethren?)
Maybe s/he was unaware of Hebrews 2:10-18 and 4:14-16
 

A Freeman

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The meaning of the word "of":

of
(preposition)

Derived or coming from; originating at or from.

Caused by; resulting from.

The terminology "Son OF God" indicates the Son is derived from, comes from, caused by, and/or originates from God.

It does NOT mean the son is allegedly God Himself, or it would instead say: "God the Son", a phrase which is found nowhere in all of Scripture (and neither is the phrase " God the Holy Spirit").

ALL of the Sons of God are Divine, but that does not make any of them Father, THE Guardian Of Divinity and The King Ruler of the Universe.

IF the Scripture is read as it is written, without any preconceived notions, there is not one single verse that lends any support to the Roman/Babylonian trinity doctrine. Not one.
 

The Sojourner

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Thank you, aswell

Thoughts??
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matt 12:31-32

So many countries around the world have blasphemy laws. Do you think laws ciminalizing defaming Christ and the Holyspirit are misplaced?


Man has a spiritual side to himself, otherwise how else would he commune with his Maker, moreso after the separation caused by sin when he couldn't see or communicate physically? Everyone who has been to sunday school has been taught that we have a "God-shaped hole in our hearts that only God can fill."

Thou hast made us for Thyself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee.~ Saint Augustine

St Gregory of Sinai clearly states that forgetfulness of God is a disease of the soul and of the faculty of reason. It has a direct impact on human memory, which ends up divided, diffused and fragmented.



Maybe s/he was unaware of Hebrews 2:10-18 and 4:14-16
my thoughts: They were calling good, evil (Isaiah 5:20-21) by accusing Christ of casting out devils (healing people) by what they claimed to be the prince of the devils, when Christ was healing people by the Spirit of God (Matt. 12:28). So, they were clearly blaspheming in saying what they did. They were obviously lying and so it was an attempt at maliciously slandering Him, to try to deceive and scare off the people who were believeing and following Him.

So, Christ then explained to them how and why, what they were doing was extremely wrong and misguided (from Satan) and warned them of the implications and consequences of their evil actions.

He said,
Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then The Kingdom of God is come unto you. (Matt. 3:16)
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

Isaiah 5:20-21 would also already have been known to them, yet they did not heed it:

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for Light, and Light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 5:21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

(It says woe unto them, so it's clearly a warning.)

So Christ pointed out to them, that their blasphemy was aimed against the Spirit of God. Because, they spoke against the Spirit that was in Christ (2 Corintians 5:19) through which Christ was healing people (casting out devils). So, they were maliciously slandering.

Sins that are not forgiven, are punished. That means paying for it.

So, we have to be careful. In the Quran it says that the only sin that God does not forgive, is the association of others with Him. The Jews who accused Jesus Christ, were blaspheming against the Spirit of God (2 Cor. 5:19). They were thereby associating something/someone else (what they said and claimed) with Him.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us The Word of reconciliation.
 
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Interestingly, those who deny the divinity of Christ find good company among those who put Him to death.
”For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God (John 5:16-18).”
The same charges for which Jesus Christ was condemned to death are levelled by A Freeman today, who condemns Jesus to death under Pharisaic law, for making himself One with God.

What he told the Jews was clear, they understood and they put him to death for it, even if A Freeman doesn’t understand.
“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.”

The Son gives life and passes judgement, two qualities belonging only to God, and is to be honoured identically to God..

“The Lord will judge the ends of the earth” (1 Sam 2:10). “For He is coming to judge the earth” (1 Chron 16:33). “He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity” (Ps 9:8). Just in case there is any ambiguity Paul makes clear that “God judge the world” (Rom 3:6), “God judges” (1 Cor 5:13), and “Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead” (2 Tim 4:1).

To honor the Son even as they honor the Father means to be worshiped identically. The word “honor” occurs 23 times in the New Testament. It consistently refers to three types of people: God, parents, and the government. Are we charged to honor our parents equal to the Father? No. Are we told to honor the king equal to the Father? No. Yet, we are told to honor the Son “even as they honor the Father.” Yet, we worship the Father! There is no higher honor than to literally by worshiped as God. How can we then honor the Son even as the Father if we do not honor Him as God Himself?

So even as the words of Jesus escape A Freeman, they did not escape the Jews to whom he spoke, who put him to death for making himself One with God.
 
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The Sojourner

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Interestingly, those who deny the divinity of Christ find good company among those who put Him to death.
”For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God (John 5:16-18).”
The same charges for which Jesus Christ was condemned to death are levelled by A Freeman today, who condemns Jesus to death under Pharisaic law, for making himself One with God.

What he told the Jews was clear, they understood and they put him to death for it, even if A Freeman doesn’t understand.
“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.”

The Son gives life and passes judgement, two qualities belonging only to God, and is to be honoured identically to God..

“The Lord will judge the ends of the earth” (1 Sam 2:10). “For He is coming to judge the earth” (1 Chron 16:33). “He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity” (Ps 9:8). Just in case there is any ambiguity Paul makes clear that “God judge the world” (Rom 3:6), “God judges” (1 Cor 5:13), and “Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead” (2 Tim 4:1).

To honor the Son even as they honor the Father means to be worshiped identically. The word “honor” occurs 23 times in the New Testament. It consistently refers to three types of people: God, parents, and the government. Are we charged to honor our parents equal to the Father? No. Are we told to honor the king equal to the Father? No. Yet, we are told to honor the Son “even as they honor the Father.” Yet, we worship the Father! There is no higher honor than to literally by worshiped as God. How can we then honor the Son even as the Father if we do not honor Him as God Himself?

So even as the words of Jesus escape A Freeman, they did not escape the Jews to whom he spoke, who put him to death for making himself One with God.
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Therefore, it must be true (John 14:6).

Even so,

John 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Should we seek to condemn or should we rather seek to understand? Just a thought.
 

The Sojourner

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The goal is to seek to follow the Instructions faithfully and do as we are told.

To become obedient, like Christ.

Hebrews
5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
5:10 Called by God an High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.
 
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John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I
This doesn’t contradict the trinity. The Son is eternally begotten or the Father. Regardless, the Son was with God before creation, and was God. (John 17, John 1). Your options really are to ignore, editorialize, or simply deny these verses exist as A Freeman does, or if you accept they exist, you accept that the Son is a part of God, as the rest of the Bible teaches, eternally begotten of the Father, who became flesh.
 
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