Some simple questions about the "trinity" that no "Christian" seems to be able to answer

A Freeman

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I would also add Luke 23:34 that should undoubtedly put a hole in the trinity belief, but it is what it is. Well, at least on these boards.
Thank-you. Agreed. That verse also proves our insanity, which is what belief in the trinity really is.

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do (i.e. they are insane). And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
 

Maldarker

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Thank-you. Agreed. That verse also proves our insanity, which is what belief in the trinity really is.

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do (i.e. they are insane). And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
yeah that sure put holes in the trinity arguement 1 verse yup ends the debate right there.... (i.e your insane if you think that proves it as you think it does) seems like i.e you like to put your own interpetation right there that its insane hmm don't see it that way....maybe read the whole chapter one verse out here or there you can make it sound like anything at that point. just like this one Matt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
 

YokeFellow

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I would also add Luke 23:34 that should undoubtedly put a hole in the trinity belief, but it is what it is. Well, at least on these boards.
Not at all. I will explain...

First, let us make one thing clear. The Godhead is the same as the Trinity. Therefore, those that reject the Trinity reject this verse...

Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"


I have seen non-Godhead preachers like the OP claim that the above verse 'should not be in the Bible'. Talk about putting a 'hole' in a belief.

Here is the big Revelation that the non-Godhead preachers are unable to process....

The word 'Father' in the Bible is synonymous with the Word of God.

You know the verse...

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


The 'One God' is not some being sitting on a Throne, as we see for example in the Throne Room. The One God is literally an infinite Information Field...

mhp-0663.gif

Does the above look like what is described in this next verse?

Revelation 4:2
"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."


Is there an Infinite Information Field sitting on the Throne? No. The Throne is a MANIFESTATION of the Father/Word. In other words, the Throne is a representation of the Godhead, and NOT God.

The Being sitting on the Throne represents the Father part of the Godhead. The Lamb represents the Word, and the Rainbow represents the Holy Ghost. ALL of which are being manifested from the WORD...

Hebrews 11:3
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."


Meditate on the above verse. GOD IS INVISIBLE. Thus, John did not see God, but rather a 'projection'... i.e., John saw the Godhead/Trinity. John saw a 3D image generated from the Word. John saw 'things which are seen'. This is what so many do not understand.

No one can see God and live. Remember?

Exodus 33:20
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."


The above applies to the Throne Room as well as anywhere else. No one can see the Word. Not even Neo. That is fiction.

Let us not forget that God is a Consuming Fire...

Hebrews 12:29
"For our God is a consuming fire."


Fire is Electromagnetism. It is Energy. The Word is Living.

Are those in the Throne Room being consumed? No. Therefore, God exists outside of it.

Sadly, those that reject the Godhead are unable to see the Bigger Picture that exists outside of the Throne Room. They cannot perceive that which exists beyond. They 'dumb down' the teachings of Scripture to their 'inside the box' understanding of things.
 
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Not at all. I will explain...

First, let us make one thing clear. The Godhead is the same as the Trinity. Therefore, those that reject the Trinity reject this verse...

Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"


I have seen non-Godhead preachers like the OP claim that the above verse 'should not be in the Bible'. Talk about putting a 'hole' in a belief.

Here is the big Revelation that the non-Godhead preachers are unable to process....

The word 'Father' in the Bible is synonymous with the Word of God.

You know the verse...

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


The 'One God' is not some being sitting on a Throne, as we see for example in the Throne Room. The One God is literally an infinite Information Field...


Does the above look like what is described in this next verse?

Revelation 4:2
"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."


Is there an Infinite Information Field sitting on the Throne? No. The Throne is a MANIFESTATION of the Father/Word. In other words, the Throne is a representation of the Godhead, and NOT God.

The Being sitting on the Throne represents the Father part of the Godhead. The Lamb represents the Word, and the Rainbow represents the Holy Ghost. ALL of which are being manifested from the WORD...

Hebrews 11:3
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."


Meditate on the above verse. GOD IS INVISIBLE. Thus, John did not see God, but rather a 'projection'... i.e., John saw the Godhead/Trinity. John saw a 3D image generated from the Word. John saw 'things which are seen'. This is what so many do not understand.

No one can see God and live. Remember?

Exodus 33:20
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."


The above applies to the Throne Room as well as anywhere else. No one can see the Word. Not even Neo. That is fiction.

Let us not forget that God is a Consuming Fire...

Hebrews 12:29
"For our God is a consuming fire."


Fire is Electromagnetism. It is Energy. The Word is Living.

Are those in the Throne Room being consumed? No. Therefore, God exists outside of it.

Sadly, those that reject the Godhead are unable to see the Bigger Picture that exists outside of the Throne Room. They cannot perceive that which exists beyond. They 'dumb down' the teachings of Scripture to their 'inside the box' understanding of things.
Yeah, and you're a scholar of this topic because...? I'll stick to the truth rather than the gobbledygook you post on here. The mere fact that you support the trinity tells me all I need to know. FYI:

The Pagans Origins of the Trinity:
 

A Freeman

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yeah that sure put holes in the trinity arguement 1 verse yup ends the debate right there.... (i.e your insane if you think that proves it as you think it does) seems like i.e you like to put your own interpetation right there that its insane hmm don't see it that way....maybe read the whole chapter one verse out here or there you can make it sound like anything at that point. just like this one Matt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
What do you think "they know not what they do" means?

Only a complete lunatic would murder an innocent individual, particularly if they knew that individual housed the Firstborn/Eldest Son of God.

And again, there are HUNDREDS of verses that prove there is no 3-in-1, 1-in-3 "trinity" (not just one).

Why not just answer the questions in the OP?
 
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Maldarker

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^ Only a complete lunatic would murder an innocent individual, particularly if they knew that individual was the Firstborn/Eldest Son of God.

And yet your the one saying we live in an insane asylum....
 

YokeFellow

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Yeah, and you're a scholar of this topic because...? I'll stick to the truth rather than the gobbledygook you post on here. The mere fact that you support the trinity tells me all I need to know. FYI:

The Pagans Origins of the Trinity:
So, the verses I posted are 'gobbledygook'. Got it.

Thanks for proving my point.
 

YokeFellow

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And again, there are HUNDREDS of verses that prove there is no 3-in-1, 1-in-3 "trinity" (not just one).
And again, you need to differentiate between God in the Highest Heaven (invisible) and God as a Physical Manifestation (visible).
 

YokeFellow

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The word 'Godhead' is in the Bible.

Anyone who denies the Godhead, denies the Word of God. Period.

Your only option is to say that the Bible is in error. You literally have no other choice.
 

YokeFellow

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I mean... gobbledygook. How can anyone refute that?

Lol... I can always tell when information is over someone's head. They use phrases like that.

Maybe this will help...

Debate2.png
 

A Freeman

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And again, you need to differentiate between God in the Highest Heaven (invisible) and God as a Physical Manifestation (visible).
No, no one needs to do that, because there is no such thing as a visible, physical manifestation of the One True invisible (to human eyes) God.

Numbers 23:19 GOD [IS] NOT A MAN, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do [it]? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?

John 4:24 GOD [IS] A SPIRIT: and they that worship Him must worship [Him] with their spirit (Being) and in Truth.

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: OUR FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN, Hallowed be Thy name.
 

A Freeman

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References to Christ as the Son OF God (50)

Matthew (9):
4:3, 4:6, 8:29, 14:33, 16:16, 26:63, 27:40, 27:43, 27:54

Mark (5): 1:1, 3:11, 5:7, 14:61, 15:39

Luke (7): 1:32, 1:35, 4:3, 4:9, 4:41, 8:28, 22:70

John (11): 1:34, 1:49, 3:18, 5:25, 6:69, 9:35, 10:36, 11:4, 11:27, 19:7, 20:30

Acts (2): 8:37, 9:20

Books with single references (5): Galatians 2:20, 2 Corinthians 1:19, Romans 1:4, Ephesians 4:13, Revelation 2:18

Hebrews (4): 4:14, 6:6, 7:3, 10:29

1 John (7): 3:8, 4:15, 5:5, 5:10, 5:12, 5:13, 5:20

Also, three of the references to Christ being the literal Son of God refer to Him as the Son of THE Most High or THE Highest. Further, there are at least three more references made by Father to His Anointed (His Christ) as His Son.

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son OF the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son OF the Highest: and THE LORD God his Father shall give unto him the Throne of David:

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

And in Psalms, where Father (God, the Most High) refers His Anointed (His Christ) as His Son: Psalm 2:7, 2:12, Dan. 3:25.

Also of interest is the designation of the other angels, both in heaven and here on earth, as “the sons of God”, “children of the Most High” or “sons of the Living God”, etc., including:

Genesis 6:2-7, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7, Psalm 82:6, Hosea 1:10, John 1:12, Romans 8:14-19, Philippians 2:15, 1 John 3:1-2.

This of course is in perfect agreement with the references to Christ as “the firstborn among many brethren” in Romans 8:29, “the firstborn of every creature” in Colossians 1:15, and “the beginning of the creation of God” in Rev. 3:14. There simply is no other way for Christ to be the literal Son of God (as well as the literal firstborn).


REFERENCES IN SCRIPTURE TO CHRIST AS “GOD THE SON”: ZERO (0)

REFERENCES IN SCRIPTURE TO “THE DEITY OF CHRIST”:
ZERO (0)

The word “of”, by definition, indicates the origin or derivation of something, e.g. a Son OF God.

Common-sense: A Father ALWAYS comes BEFORE the Father's Son, just as a son ALWAYS is descended FROM the Son's Father. The Son is the OFFSPRING CREATED BY the Father, by definition.

Anyone who denies that Christ is the LITERAL Son Of God is an antichrist (1 John 2:22-23).
 

A Freeman

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The truth from Christ, directly through the mouth of Jesus, about God:-
(with the words of Christ in blue)

John 10:29 MY FATHER, which gave [them] me, IS GREATER THAN ALL; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, MY GOD, MY GOD, why hast Thou forsaken me? (Eno. 89:20; Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Sura 4:157-8.)

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY FATHER, and your Father; AND [to] MY GOD, and your God.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in The Temple of MY GOD, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of MY GOD, and the name of the city of MY GOD, [which is] New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from MY GOD: and [I will write upon him] my NEW name.

Matthew 6:9-10
6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be THY name.
6:10 THY Kingdom come. Thy Will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; NEITHER HE THAT IS SENT GREATER THAN HE THAT SENT HIM.

Jesus also referred to Himself as “the Son of Man” over 80 times, proving He couldn't possibly be claiming to be God, as Father (Who IS God) made it crystal clear He is NOT, and NEVER will be a man or the “son of man”.

Numbers 23:19 GOD [IS] NOT A MAN, that He should lie; NEITHER THE SON OF MAN, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do [it]? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good (i.e. God is omnipotent – Christ, by His own admission, is NOT omnipotent – John 5:30)?

Jesus referring to Himself as the “Son of Man” (at least 81 times):-

Matthew (30): 8:20, 9:6, 10:23, 11:19, 12:8, 12:32, 12:40, 13:37, 13:41, 16:13, 16:27, 16:28, 17:9, 17:12, 17:22, 18:11, 19:28, 20:18, 20:28, 24:27, 24:30, 24:37, 24:39, 24:44, 25:13, 25:31, 26:2, 26:24, 26:45, 26:64

Mark (14): 2:10, 2:28, 8:31, 8:38, 9:9, 9:12, 9:31, 10:33, 10:45, 13:26, 13:34, 14:21, 14:41, 14:62,

Luke (26): 5:24, 6:4, 6:22, 7:34, 9:22, 9:26, 9:44, 9:56, 9:58, 11:30, 12:8, 12:10, 12:40, 17:22, 17:24, 17:26, 17:30, 18:8, 18:31, 19:10, 21:27, 21:36, 22:22, 22:48, 22:69, 24:7

John (11): 1:51, 3:13, 3:14, 5:27, 6:27, 6:53, 6:62, 8:19, 12:23, 12:34, 13:31

Anyone who mistakenly thinks that Jesus is/was God is calling Christ-Jesus a liar, and is obviously working for Satan (the Opposer), as Christ told us repeatedly (hundreds of times) that He is NOT God and that His Father is His (Christ's) God, just as Father is our God.

Christ is the TRUTH (John 14:6) SENT by Father (God) IN THE FLESH (John 1:14), i.e. as the “Son of Man”. Christ is NOT a liar, as “trinitarians” and those who falsely claim Jesus is God would have you believe.

Believe Christ instead of believing in lies about Him.
 
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A Freeman

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Christ, the CREATED Son OF God, the Firstborn of every creature.


There are NUMEROUS verses that tell us that Christ is, IN TRUTH, the FIRST of all CREATED Beings, i.e. MADE by God, giving Christ the position of preeminence over the other angels (Christ's BRETHREN), as would be expected for the FIRSTBORN.

Romans 8:28-29
8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [His] purpose.
8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the FIRSTBORN among MANY brethren.

Colossians 1:12-18
1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, Which hath made us meet to be sharers of the inheritance of the holy people in Light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the Kingdom of His dear Son:
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of every creature:
1:16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for him:
1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
1:18 And he is the head of the body, the community: who is THE BEGINNING, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell*;

*Which is why Father (God) made/created His Dear Son, known here on Earth as Christ, FIRST; i.e. Christ was the BEGINNING of the creation of God.

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING of the creation OF God;

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the House of Israel know ASSUREDLY, that God hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who by God is MADE unto us Wisdom, and Righteousness, and Sanctification, and Redemption:

2 Corinthians 5:20-21
5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] through us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
5:21 For He hath MADE him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God through him.

Romans 8:14-17
8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the (adopted) sons of God.
8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit (Being), that we (our Beings) are the children of God:
8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ**; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Hebrews 1:1-4
1:1 God, Who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the Prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [His] Son, whom He hath APPOINTED heir** of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of [His] glory, and the express IMAGE of His person, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of His Majesty on high;
1:4 Being MADE so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

**Note: Someone cannot be the heir of their own estate. According to Father's Law, the FIRSTBORN SON receives a double-portion relative to his brethren as the primary heir to the dad's estate, being considered the beginning of the dad's strength (Deut. 21:17). All the firstborn belong to Father (Num. 3:13), beginning with His Christ (Rev. 3:14), The One God Anointed (Luke 4:18, Acts 10:38), The Firstborn Son OF God (Col. 1:15), and Heir to The Kingdom OF God (Heb. 1:2), making Christ The Great Prince (Dan. 10:21, Dan. 12:1). The firstborn son of the king is heir to the kingdom (2 Chronicles 21:1-3), and is referred to as the prince.

Hebrews 2:9-11
2:9 But we see the Saviour, who was MADE a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to MAKE the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN,

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be MADE like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 5:5-11
5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be MADE The High Priest; but He that said unto him, Thou art My Son, to day have I incarnated thee.
5:6 As He saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a Priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
5:9 And being MADE perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
5:10 Called BY God an High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.
5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

Hebrews 6:20 Where the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, MADE The High Priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:15-17
7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest,
7:16 Who is MADE, not after The Law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless Life.
7:17 For He testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:26 For such an High Priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and MADE higher than the heavens;


References to Christ Being an Angel…

Exodus 23:20-21 (one of numerous references to Christ, The Angel of God)
23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in The Way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name [is] in him.

The name Micha-EL is Hebrew, and literally means "Who is LIKE God?"

John 5:45-47
5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


CHRIST'S Revelation to his Apostle John

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Christ Jesus, which God gave unto him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified [it] by His angel unto His servant John:

Revelation 10:1-3
10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a "Cloud": and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the "sea", and [his] left [foot] on the "earth",
10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as [when] a lion roareth (2 Esd. 12:31, Rev. 5:5): and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was Lightened with his glory (Matt. 24:27; Luke 17:24).

And also exactly which (Arch)angel Christ is (known in heaven as PRINCE Michael).

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand (Matt. 21:44).

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the Commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, the first of the chief princes [of God], came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Daniel 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the Scripture of Truth: and [there is] NONE that holdeth with me in these things, EXCEPT Michael your prince (Eno. 67:1; Rev. 5:3; 5; 9 & 12:7).

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael [the Archangel] (Eno. 20:5; 36:1; 40:8; 58:1; 59:9; 57:1-2; 70:4; Rev. 12:7; Sura 2:98) stand up, the Great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the Book [of Life] (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; 20:15; 21:27; Sura 83:20).

Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of Life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

The firstborn son of the king is heir to the Kingdom (2 Chronicles 21:1-3), just as Christ—the Firstborn Son of God—is Heir to the Kingdom of God
 
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YokeFellow

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No, no one needs to do that, because there is no such thing as a visible, physical manifestation of the One True invisible (to human eyes) God.
How is Moses able to see God if God is invisible?

Hebrews 11:27
"By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible."


What did Moses see?

How does the above verse relate to the verse preceding it?

Hebrews 11:26
"Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward."


What did Moses see?
 

A Freeman

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How is Moses able to see God if God is invisible?

Hebrews 11:27
"By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible."
It's difficult to know whether people simply cannot read, or whether they simply don't understand what they're reading.

The verse you've cited does NOT say that Moses saw God; it is likening his faith and endurance to seeing Him Who is invisible (to human eyes).

Hebrews 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, AS seeing Him Who is invisible.

Faith is belief in the unseen. And he that endureth until the end shall be saved (Matt. 10:22).

What did Moses see?
Moses obviously did NOT see God, did he?

John 1:18 NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME; the only incarnated Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [Him].

John 5:37 And the Father Himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.

How does the above verse relate to the verse preceding it?

Hebrews 11:26
"Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward."
The complete passage in Hebrews is as follows, letting us know Moses was guided by and learned from Christ, aka "the angel of God (Father, Whose Name is "I AM").:

Hebrews 11:24-27
11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ (see Exod. 23:20-23) greater riches than the treasures in Egypt (see Matt. 13:45-46): for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, AS seeing Him Who is invisible.

What did Moses see?
You've read Exodus, haven't you please? Moses saw Christ, aka The Angel of the "I AM", Who appeared to Moses in "the burning bush", exactly as it says in Scripture.

Exodus 3:1-3
3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, [even] to Horeb.
3:2 And THE ANGEL OF THE "I AM" APPEARED UNTO HIM IN A FLAME OF FIRE OUT OF THE MIDST OF A BUSH: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.
3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

It was Christ, The Angel of the "I AM", Who led Moses and the Israelites through the wilderness.

Exodus 23:20-23
23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in The Way (John 14:6), and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name [is] in him.
23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23:23 For Mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

John 14:20-23
14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
14:21 He that hath my COMMANDments, and KEEPETH them, HE it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
14:22 Jude saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will obey my words: and my Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
14:24 He that loveth me not obeyeth not my sayings: and the Truth which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
 
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TokiEl

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There are HUNDREDS of verses in the Bible which plainly tell us that Christ is a CREATED Being and therefore NOT God.
The biological body was of course grown in the womb of Mary... but just as us Jesus is more than a biological body.

He is the Logos of God who inhabited the biological body grown in the womb of Mary.
 

A Freeman

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IF John 1:1 is read properly, i.e. honestly and with an open-mind, the term "Jesus" isn't in it at all, either directly or by inference.

Only when one WRONGLY ASSUMES that they can substitute “Jesus” into BOTH John 1:14 AND John 1:1 (when “Jesus” doesn't appear in either verse) for the term “the Word” (Logos), can one misinterpret those two very simple and easy to understand verses.

Please see the following link for an example of the false logic being used by “Christians” to read something into John 1:1 which simply isn't there.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/111/Illicit_Substitution_of_Identicals

An illicit substitution is one of the many forms of non sequitur logical fallacies, i.e. faulty deductions that simply do not logically follow from the information at hand. Along with the examples at the link above, please consider the following illicit substitution, to realize how dangerous this type of irrational thinking really is.

Mr. Hatfield owns a .45 caliber pistol.
Mr. McCoy was shot by a man with a .45 caliber pistol.
Mr. Hatfield is therefore guilty of shooting Mr. McCoy.


Hopefully this illustrates how dangerous illicit substitutions can be, causing people to jump to erroneous conclusions using this false logic (i.e. illogic). Bearing this in mind, please consider there are at least 4 different ways that God's Word is referred to, or defined as, in the Bible.

a) The Word of the "I AM" came to the Prophets/God's Messengers by vision/dream. (telepathically).

b) The Word of the "I AM" was verbally spoken by the Prophets/God's Messengers.

c) The Word of the "I AM" was recorded in writing by the Prophets/God's Messengers (including the Disciples and Apostles), in what we refer to as the Bible (the written Word of God).

d) The Word of the "I AM" was also MADE into a flesh and blood example for us (The Way - John 14:6), in the form of the human+Being Jesus+Christ.


So why do “Christians” arbitrarily choose one of the four methods in which the Word of the "I AM" has been delivered to us, in preference to the other three, to use in their illicit substitution into John 1:1? Is it not because “Christians” want to read into those verses something that isn't actually there?

By substituting the four different forms in which the Word was delivered from God to us listed above, John 1:1 would read as follows:-

In [the] beginning was the vision/dream, and the vision/dream was with THE God, and the vision/dream was God.

In [the] beginning was the spoken Word, and the spoken Word was with THE God, and the spoken Word was God.

In [the] beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with THE God, and God was the Bible.

In [the] beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with THE God, and Jesus was (past tense) God.

Hopefully the fundamental flaw in these types of illicit substitutions is self-evident, but just in case it isn't, please consider the following insurmountable difficulties in claiming Jesus is God:-

1) Clearly God was NOT a vision, even if that vision came from Him. It was the TRUTH of that vision that was, since the beginning, with God and was God, because God IS the TRUTH and, unlike satan and humans, God cannot lie.

2) Clearly God was NOT a verbal message, even if that verbal message was His Word, being delivered by His Messengers. It was the TRUTH contained within that verbal message that was, since the beginning, with God and was God, because God IS the TRUTH and, unlike satan and humans, God cannot lie.

3) Clearly God was NOT a book, even if that book was the Bible. It was the TRUTH contained within the Bible that was, since the beginning, with God and was God, because God IS the TRUTH and, unlike satan and humans, God cannot lie.

4) It therefore LOGICALLY follows that God was NOT Jesus, even if Jesus was the flesh and blood example God gave us. It was the TRUTH that Jesus spoke and did that was, since the beginning, with God and was God, because God IS the TRUTH and, unlike satan and humans, God cannot lie.

5) How could anyone be WITH someone at the same time they were that someone? No one claims some part of them was “with them” (my head was with me) nor would anyone claim to be with themselves (I was with me), except in jest.

6) There is also a tense problem with John 1:1 that is being ignored, which likewise proves the illicit substitution of “Jesus” for "the Word" in that verse simply does NOT work. The last phrase of the verse is as follows:

“...and the Word WAS God” (or, using the substition of Jesus for the Word: “...Jesus WAS God” – past tense).

IF Jesus actually IS God, then ALL of the verb tenses in John 1:1 should be present tense, NOT past tense. But that is NOT what it says, is it? "Jesus WAS God", is clearly PAST TENSE.

IF Jesus actually IS God, then ALL of the verb tenses in John 1:1 should be present tense, NOT past tense. But that is NOT what it says, is it? "Jesus WAS God", is clearly PAST TENSE.

It seems noteworthy that the "tense blindness" is not only misapplied in John 1:1, but in the other verse Christians routinely quote as evidence that Jesus allegedly claimed to be God: John 8:58 KJV (John 8:49 King of kings' Bible).

Where using the illicit substitution in John 1:1 ignores the past tense reference ("Jesus WAS God") that proves its error, John 8:58 KJV ignores the fact that the present tense form of "to be" is used because using the past tense form would indicate Christ (speaking through the mouth of Jesus - see John 8:14, John 17:5, John 18:36) no longer existed (it's "I am going to live forever", NOT "I was going to live forever", the latter of which would mean that is no longer going to happen).

7) And finally, to further illustrate how absurd this substitution idea really is, please consider how substituting both the pagan Babylonian/Roman “trinity” and the Son Jesus into John 1:1 would render that verse:-

John 1:1 In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with THE God, and the Word was God.

...would become...

John 1:1 In [the] beginning was the Son Jesus, and the Son Jesus was with THE Father, Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and the Son Jesus was the Father, Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Which should leave no reasonable doubt in any rationally-minded human+Being that Jesus is NOT God, which should also explain why Jesus NEVER claimed to be God.
 

TokiEl

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IF John 1:1 is read properly, i.e. honestly and with an open-mind, the term "Jesus" isn't in it at all, either directly or by inference.

Only when one WRONGLY ASSUMES that they can substitute “Jesus” into BOTH John 1:14 AND John 1:1 (when “Jesus” doesn't appear in either verse) for the term “the Word” (Logos), can one misinterpret those two very simple and easy to understand verses.
John is of course talking about Jesus. Anyone can read it ...



John 1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [a]comprehend it.

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

15John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [f]is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

16[g]And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [h]Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
 
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