So.... The Revelation 12 Sign!

Red Sky at Morning

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Just to set the general point of the thread, I have looked into Bible prophecy for years (but with quite a few where I didn't want to live in prophetic times included - just being honest!). I'm just a regular guy, so I liked this YouTube clip from another regular guy.


I'm not setting any dates, in England we play football, and the game ends when the ref blows the whistle (at the moment he chooses) even if the game is playing some extra time ;-)
 

Hubert

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Someone is always saying that the world is going to end. The signs are always stronger than ever before. Adults are always telling their children "If it doesn't happen with in my life time it will happen with in yours." and then those children grow up and tell their children the same thing. Those trying to predict the rapture or the end of days have always been wrong, they will always be wrong.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@Hubert

I told people that at a Bible study a few years ago!!!

Seriously though (and the above was true) many people are very delicate with people's religious sensibilities and don't spell out their criticisms... I prefer people who are just honest! Looking from the outside it, the bizarre antics where people start looking at signs, patterns, dates, variants in the Greek translations etc etc must seem extremely perverse!

As as general thing, for the largest part of my life, my mind-set towards "end times" was a bit like the way that one writer described the mouse's sincere search for the cat - I felt it might be about and I wanted to avoid it!!!

As I was growing up and various suggested "dates" would come and go, I would watch each one with the relief of a Monopoly player glad to pass Park Lane and Mayfair with their red hotels, and get another round of the board. Quite simply, it was my life and if anything "biblical" were to happen, I would much prefer it did when I was really old and I had experienced as much of this world as I wanted to.

My thinking changed for reasons too long for this post. I might write about it some time... From the point of an evolutionary perspective which you took last time we spoke, i would imagine that seeing our present universe as an unfolding story with a meaningful beginning, direction and a conclusion (like a novel, almost) will be as foolish to you as a flying pig!

The slow, undirected process to life, the emergence of man, the search for meaning, the premise of the "Golden Bough" (from magic to religion to science etc etc) will perhaps be axiomatic to you?

From that basic assumption it would be difficult for me to make a case to you that we might possibly be in what the Bible describes as the "Last Days".

Standing back from the viewpoint of history, it is possible to see how the first coming of Jesus was prophesied. From the shadows and patterns, to the many individual prophecies right through to the dates that could have been used to calculate His coming...

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/552/

Study reveals a God outside time who is involved with his creation. Just as the prophecies of the first coming of Jesus came true, many believe that the ones of his return will follow a similar pattern.

Sometimes it is worth standing back and taking in the big picture before launching into any specifics... I used to paint a lot and I was rubbish at people because I always preferred landscapes. My picture of "girl dancing with man with one long arm" is a good case in point! The detail was nice but stand back and the overall effect is unsatisfactory!

 
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Hubert

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I used to try to be delicate, but it would take me three paragraphs to spell out what you were able to understand form three lines, so basically I got lazy ;). And you are correct the idea of the universe as a novel, with humanity and Christianity as the central premises, is ludicrous to me, though I'm not familiar with the concept of the Golden Bough.

My question to you is ultimately this. Pretend that I am right and the Apocalypse does not happen within your or my lifetime. What will you do? Will you tell the children of the next generation that since the end times are not coming in your life time they will be coming within theirs, or will you stop spreading the story?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I used to try to be delicate, but it would take me three paragraphs to spell out what you were able to understand form three lines, so basically I got lazy ;). And you are correct the idea of the universe as a novel, with humanity and Christianity as the central premises, is ludicrous to me, though I'm not familiar with the concept of the Golden Bough.

My question to you is ultimately this. Pretend that I am right and the Apocalypse does not happen within your or my lifetime. What will you do? Will you tell the children of the next generation that since the end times are not coming in your life time they will be coming within theirs, or will you stop spreading the story?
Could I answer your question with a question?

What do you make of the already fulfilled prophecies?

prophecy.jpg

Read more about just 40 at:

https://jewsforjesus.org/answers/top-40-most-helpful-messianic-prophecies/

Even an Evolutionist must regard these odds as a little daunting ;-)

If the prophecies of Jesus's first coming were so accurately fulfilled, should we be discounting those of his second?
 

JoChris

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Someone is always saying that the world is going to end. The signs are always stronger than ever before. Adults are always telling their children "If it doesn't happen with in my life time it will happen with in yours." and then those children grow up and tell their children the same thing. Those trying to predict the rapture or the end of days have always been wrong, they will always be wrong.
Your position was prophesied.



There are a lot more signs that point to Jesus' coming in this generation though.

 

rainerann

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Did anyone here actually see the eclipse we just had? I worked night shift the night before and slept through the whole thing that day.

I came across this video yesterday when I was searching through videos about the hurricanes taking place. It shows that there are a whole bunch of natural disasters happening all over the world right now starting around this eclipse we just had.

It also shows two lights during the eclipse. One that is the eclipse that they say was covered by the media, while another light is still shining super bright.

I didn't get to see the eclipse so I am interested in hearing from anyone that did. This video has definitely made me more interested in this subject. However, I am still having trouble seeing how people are associating a date with Revelation 12. From my understanding, Revelation 12 doesn't describe a specific date but spans a length of time. Yah, I don't see the connection to this chapter even though I do see a connection to some of these events and prophecy.

 

Red Sky at Morning

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Did anyone here actually see the eclipse we just had? I worked night shift the night before and slept through the whole thing that day.

I came across this video yesterday when I was searching through videos about the hurricanes taking place. It shows that there are a whole bunch of natural disasters happening all over the world right now starting around this eclipse we just had.

It also shows two lights during the eclipse. One that is the eclipse that they say was covered by the media, while another light is still shining super bright.

I didn't get to see the eclipse so I am interested in hearing from anyone that did. This video has definitely made me more interested in this subject. However, I am still having trouble seeing how people are associating a date with Revelation 12. From my understanding, Revelation 12 doesn't describe a specific date but spans a length of time. Yah, I don't see the connection to this chapter even though I do see a connection to some of these events and prophecy.

Wow! Interesting video...

With regards to what some people are interpreting as the "Revelation 12 Sign", this sign appears within the wider context of Revelation 12...

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Whether the astronomical observations around 23rd September correspond to this sign is a hot topic right now...

In addition, there is debate over what this sign might mean.

Furthermore, even if it is a "sign" it remains a complete unknown whether it signifies something that is about to happen, something that might happen that day or as notice of something that will happen.

With that in mind, in 15 minutes, this is a round up of why people have stood up and took notice.

 
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Hubert

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Could I answer your question with a question?

What do you make of the already fulfilled prophecies?

View attachment 1616

Read more about just 40 at:

https://jewsforjesus.org/answers/top-40-most-helpful-messianic-prophecies/

Even an Evolutionist must regard these odds as a little daunting ;-)

If the prophecies of Jesus's first coming were so accurately fulfilled, should we be discounting those of his second?
Those odds aren't daunting at all, it's easy to back fill a prophecy. The story of Jesus was written/edited to fit the prophecies. After all those prophecies were written before Jesus, and there was about three hundred years between Jesus's death and the writing, or should I say compiling, of the bible. The authors/editors of the bible would have had the benefit of knowing the old prophecies before they put the story together. They simply included prophecies that corroborated their vision of the messiah, and omitted those that didn't. Those "fulfilled" prophesies are explained by hindsight, divine revelation is not required.

You still haven't answered my question. Assume that I am right, and the world does not end within your lifetime. When you are old will you tell the youngest generation that Armageddon will be happening within their lifetime, or will you stop spreading that story?
 

Hubert

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Your position was prophesied.



There are a lot more signs that point to Jesus' coming in this generation though.

The prophecy in Second Peter is probably the most robust prophecy in the entire bible. It basically says that there will be some people who recognize end times prophecies as crap, and we will call out such prophecies as crap. A smart conman knows that some people will see straight through a ruse, and he plans ahead, in order to more firmly capture those that don't.
 

Hubert

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Did anyone here actually see the eclipse we just had? I worked night shift the night before and slept through the whole thing that day.

I came across this video yesterday when I was searching through videos about the hurricanes taking place. It shows that there are a whole bunch of natural disasters happening all over the world right now starting around this eclipse we just had.

It also shows two lights during the eclipse. One that is the eclipse that they say was covered by the media, while another light is still shining super bright.

I didn't get to see the eclipse so I am interested in hearing from anyone that did. This video has definitely made me more interested in this subject. However, I am still having trouble seeing how people are associating a date with Revelation 12. From my understanding, Revelation 12 doesn't describe a specific date but spans a length of time. Yah, I don't see the connection to this chapter even though I do see a connection to some of these events and prophecy.

I did see the eclipse, I drove to Herndon Kentucky with most of my family. We were squarely in the path of totality. There was no second light. It looks like the author of the video is showing some sort of lens effect and calling it a second light, but I can't say for certain. What I can say for certain is this; where I was, there was no second light in the sky.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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"There was about three hundred years between Jesus's death and the writing, or should I say compiling, of the bible."

Response part 1...

"In 1955 there were discovered several papyrus fragments in Qumran Cave 7. The unusual – and unexpected – feature of Cave 7 was that all of its fragments were in Greek, as opposed to the exclusively Hebrew and Aramaic scrolls that had been found in the other caves. Apart from two of the fragments which were from the Greek version of the Old Testament (Exodus and the apocryphal Letter of Jeremiah), the rest of the fragments from Cave 7 were all catalogued as unidentified, and were considered indeed to be unidentifiable. That’s how things remained until 1972, when the papyrologist, Dr José O’Callaghan, thought that he would try to identify them. They were housed at the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem, and in April 1972 he was able to do a hands-on examination of each of them and take a series of infra-red and other photographs. What he discovered concerning them was to shock the academic world – the fragments belonged to books of the New Testament.

Why that should have shocked the world of academe was this. The cave and its fragments were sealed up in the year AD 68 when the Roman 10th Legion overran the area. This means that these New Testament books had been written out before that year, and were indeed copied out of earlier exemplars. It means that the New Testament had been written out and was in circulation well inside the Eyewitness Period of AD 30-70. In other words, it undermines everything - and I mean everything! - that the Bible critics have been saying for the past couple of hundred years or so. This is evidence which tells us that our New Testament is no collection of fables written out so late that they are worthless, but a thoroughly authentic eyewitness account of the Man Christ Jesus, the Son of God. It is time for the fragments from Qumran Cave 7 to speak for themselves once again."

Bill Cooper
The Authenticity of the New Testament Fragments of Qumran
 

rainerann

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Wow! Interesting video...

With regards to what some people are interpreting as the "Revelation 12 Sign", this sign appears within the wider context of Revelation 12...

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Whether the astronomical observations around 23rd September correspond to this sign is a hot topic right now...

In addition, there is debate over what this sign might mean.

Furthermore, even if it is a "sign" it remains a complete unknown whether it signifies something that is about to happen, something that might happen that day or as notice of something that will happen.

With that in mind, in 15 minutes, this is a round up of why people have stood up and took notice.

Oh, so the connection is basically the same as saying the description in Revelation 12 represents constellation patterns that appear in the sky. That is very interesting Red. Thanks for sharing.
This video actually makes more sense as an interpretation of Revelation 12 than any other discussion on the chapter I have ever experienced. I have for a long time considered that understanding the prophecy would increase as the prophecy was fulfilled in the same way as the prophecy of the Messiah is best understood by its fulfillment, not its speculation.

In all my years of prophecy debates, there are few things that pop out at me that actually make sense the way this video did. Super interesting. Will have to look more into this.

I wonder if this would make the dragon HAARP or some kind of weather manipulation? Probably could do more to explain this better a little later.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Those odds aren't daunting at all, it's easy to back fill a prophecy. The story of Jesus was written/edited to fit the prophecies. After all those prophecies were written before Jesus, and there was about three hundred years between Jesus's death and the writing, or should I say compiling, of the bible. The authors/editors of the bible would have had the benefit of knowing the old prophecies before they put the story together. They simply included prophecies that corroborated their vision of the messiah, and omitted those that didn't. Those "fulfilled" prophesies are explained by hindsight, divine revelation is not required.

You still haven't answered my question. Assume that I am right, and the world does not end within your lifetime. When you are old will you tell the youngest generation that Armageddon will be happening within their lifetime, or will you stop spreading that story?
Response part 2...

Matthew 24

"The lesson of the Fig Tree

(Mark 13:28-31; Luke 21:29-33)

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

A popular interpretation (that I think stands scrutiny) is that the "Fig Tree" represents Israel, and the appearance of the leaves represents it's restoration (as a sign to the Nations). With the dates 1948 and 1967 as dates for the start of "that generation" this then becomes something of a time limited proposition...

If that were the case, and I were to reach the end of my lifetime (not exactly giving away my age ;-) I would have to say that the interpretation of the "establishment of Israel" as a ticking clock of one generation, might be incorrect.

That would then defer to the position that the Lord might return during their lifetimes (the way it has been for the last 2000 years).

This latter alternative to the mainstream "Israel = Fig Tree" interpretation is held out here...
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/289/

Of course, in providing you with a biblical answer, I will be doing so based on a work of what you currently believe to be fiction ;-)
 
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this forum is going very slow, page keeps freezing so i can't read the thread
Tell me, by referencing Revelation 12 are you implying that the floods in yankistan are the fulfillment of the dragon making war against the woman and her offspring?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I read this and it was so much better than I could say...

The End of the World is Coming, Again?!

"The end of the world is coming again and people wonder, “Is it true this time?”

This year’s doom’s day prediction is scheduled for September 23rd based on an alignment of the stars called Virgo, the constellation of a woman that will be in position over the moon and under 12 stars. As with most end-time predictions, the date corresponds to this year’s Jewish calendar and believers are saying this rare alignment of stars represents the last days woman found in Revelations chapter 12 with “the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.”

What are we to do? With the Jewish holidays just weeks away, we could spend our remaining days and hours (or until next year’s predictions) trying to calculate what the Bible says about the end of the world and wait to see what happens.

But the truth we so easily ignore, and which is often concealed behind these annual doom’s day predictions, is that the end of the world is coming for all of us - and it could be any day, at any hour. By September 23rd, millions around the world will die in car accidents, disease, overdose or in one of the many hurricanes and natural disasters now visiting the earth. Are you ready?

Can you get ready? The idea that we are at the end of the world can be scary, and if so for you, hold that thought for a minute, and ask yourself, “What am I afraid of?” When you discover the answer, think about what changes you could make in your life, where you might better invest your time and how you can make things right with God, and with yourself. Nobody knows better than you what you need to do to get your house in order.

If you clean your house just once a year it becomes an overwhelming task to face. The time you need to clean it, and the energy you would need is so great that you probably give up before you even start. Our lives are not much different than a dirty house. If it hasn’t been cleaned for a long time it's easy to give up. It would be far better to clean regularly, take the garbage out every day, wash your clothes when they are dirty and fix things when they break. Maintain your life, correct, repair and be ready for the end of your world. It could happen any day.

These end of the world scenarios remind me of the safety exercises that are supposed to make us ready for fires, bomb attacks and earthquakes, so that when the real thing happens we won’t become confused and disorientated and get lost. In the Israeli army we use a saying from Alexander Suvorov, the greatest Russian military strategist: “Hard in training, easy in war.” Practicing to be prepared for the coming of our Messiah, or to meet him sooner than we thought, is always a good idea, even if you wonder about the sign of a 12 starred constellation.

Exercise kindness, unselfishness, sympathy, decency, good will and live an upright life before God in your daily life and perhaps the end of the world (or the end of our world) might not be so terrifying. The only way to cope with the disquieting fact of our pending mortality is to practice daily the skills of faith in God and a moral lifestyle until these become so much a part of who you are that you don’t even have to think, or worry, about it anymore because you are prepared.

The Apostle Paul in his First Letter to the Corinthians (chap.13) reminds us that we prophecy in part, but faith, hope and love endure forever (not doom, gloom or red moons). One more thing. Remember Noah. The end of his world came true even as he boldly warned the people through his words and actions. How many believed and repented? How many missed that boat?"

Source
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@AspiringSoul ...

In reference to the earlier post and your last comment, it is my understanding that these events (opening of the bottomless pit, EzekieI 38 war etc) don't take place till Daniels 70th week / The Day of the Lord / Time of Jacob's Trouble begins.

These events appear to unfold after the "Church" age of Revelation 2 and 3. Many Christians believe that these last seven years before the return of Jesus will begin with the "rapture" or removal of those who believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

After the departure of the Church, imo, the world will go into a period the Bible describes as the "Great Deception", I have no idea what that will look like but any number of "lying wonders" might occur, there has been much speculation of possibilities e.g. "alien" invasion explaining sudden disappearances, technological cover stories etc. Who knows?

While you might not agree with my conclusions, I hope that makes sense...
 
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