Slave Reparations

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#41
The thing is that at one point in time forty acres and a mule were promised as reparations.

Forty acres and a mule is part of Special Field Orders No. 15, a post-Civil War promise proclaimed by Union General William Tecumseh Sherman on January 16, 1865, to allot family units, including freed people, a plot of land no larger than 40 acres (16 ha). Sherman later ordered the army to lend mules for the agrarian reform effort. The field orders followed a series of conversations between Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton and Radical Republican abolitionists Charles Sumner and Thaddeus Stevens[1] following disruptions to the institution of slavery provoked by the American Civil War. Many freed people believed, after being told by various political figures, that they had a right to own the land they had long worked as slaves, and were eager to control their own property. Freed people widely expected to legally claim 40 acres of land (a quarter-quarter section) and a mule after the end of the war. Some freedmen took advantage of the order and took initiatives to acquire land plots along a strip of South Carolina, Georgia and Florida coasts.[2] However, Lincoln's successor, president Andrew Johnsonexplicitly reversed and annulled proclamations such as Special Field Orders No. 15 and the Freedmen's Bureau Act. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty_acres_and_a_mule
In some respects, this is similar to telling the people who fought in the civil war that they would be paid in the beginning, and then changing your mind and not paying them. Reparations were agreed upon already, and then they were denied. In some ways, I think the arguments opposing reparations now are very similar to the reasons that they weren't paid to begin with.

In other ways, I think people are not informed of the actual history regarding this offer that was made and are beginning to conflate it with the present way we perceive implementing social programs. I have seen many of the political arguments for this that overcomplicate what the legitimate history of this subject teaches. Cooper had the only argument that I could somewhat support. He suggests having a reparations committee, but I think that this committee is also a way of overcomplicating this issue. We don't need to redefine what reparations need to be made. We just need to find a way to create an equivalent to the promise that was already made that should have been implemented, to begin with.

Overcomplicating this issue would create conflict because of the present political climate, so you would need someone who was able to be firm about the focus of this issue not deviating from resolving this as strictly a loose end in our history. Not doing this would contribute to the hostilities that are present. However, not resolving this is like a lingering red flag that racism does still exist outside of other factors you could use to make a case that this is true. I do see completing this as something of a symbolic peace offering, but this is only if you don't deviate from this focus and spend 10 years trying to debate how you place a monetary value on the years of discrimination that this community has experienced since the end of the civil war.

It is a very fascinating history and I am enjoying becoming more familiar with it because of the presence of this discussion right now. Here is an article I liked on the history of this subject in case anyone is interested.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-am...history/the-truth-behind-40-acres-and-a-mule/

and a description of the Freedmen Bureau.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedmen's_Bureau_bills
 





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#42
The thing is that at one point in time forty acres and a mule were promised as reparations.



In some respects, this is similar to telling the people who fought in the civil war that they would be paid in the beginning, and then changing your mind and not paying them. Reparations were agreed upon already, and then they were denied. In some ways, I think the arguments opposing reparations now are very similar to the reasons that they weren't paid to begin with.

In other ways, I think people are not informed of the actual history regarding this offer that was made and are beginning to conflate it with the present way we perceive implementing social programs. I have seen many of the political arguments for this that overcomplicate what the legitimate history of this subject teaches. Cooper had the only argument that I could somewhat support. He suggests having a reparations committee, but I think that this committee is also a way of overcomplicating this issue. We don't need to redefine what reparations need to be made. We just need to find a way to create an equivalent to the promise that was already made that should have been implemented, to begin with.

Overcomplicating this issue would create conflict because of the present political climate, so you would need someone who was able to be firm about the focus of this issue not deviating from resolving this as strictly a loose end in our history. Not doing this would contribute to the hostilities that are present. However, not resolving this is like a lingering red flag that racism does still exist outside of other factors you could use to make a case that this is true. I do see completing this as something of a symbolic peace offering, but this is only if you don't deviate from this focus and spend 10 years trying to debate how you place a monetary value on the years of discrimination that this community has experienced since the end of the civil war.

It is a very fascinating history and I am enjoying becoming more familiar with it because of the presence of this discussion right now. Here is an article I liked on the history of this subject in case anyone is interested.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-am...history/the-truth-behind-40-acres-and-a-mule/

and a description of the Freedmen Bureau.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedmen's_Bureau_bills
Interesting.. I never knew that. And I live in the south. @Dalit ... did you know about this?
 





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#44
If they were smart they'd pay reparations as that would be better than coming up off what they really owe but I dont get why black people are asking for it. America would have to empty their bank accounts, and leave for them to make adequate payment for the damage they did. Of course thats not going to happen but I still dont know about begging for scraps in comparison to what you're really owed and will get (imo)...
 





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#45
Having integrity as a nation would mean caring for our own people more than caring about our status as a world power. Having integrity as a nation would mean ensuring all our citizens had healthcare and homeless veterans weren’t homeless and could live with dignity after serving our country. Having integrity as a nation would mean a million different things that we don’t have now that we should.

Throwing a few dollars to the third generation defendants of slaves isn’t going to restore our nations integrity and might very well start a race riot the likes of which we’ve never seen before when all the struggling poor of every other race resent their tax dollars going to help people who’s problems they didn’t cause while they themselves are starving and every single program to help low income people is being gutted.
Sounds like an excuse. Nobody riots when their money goes to fight these wars or worse, Israel. But all of a sudden it goes to people this country purposely hurt for centuries and thats a problem? You mean to tell me if they redirected money that went to Israel and other countries, that our tax dollars goes to or money that goes to wars, and redirected it to descendants of slaves that people would still have a problem? Of course they would but I dont see the LOGICAL reason as to why they would...

Tell me this, the native (not indigenous) Americans got reparations to the tune of land, money, casinos (and broken promises) for what they went thru. This country gave "Jews" reparations (3 billion a year) for stuff they (allegedly) had no hand in. Japanese went thru 1-4 years of internment camps during WW2 in America and got some sort of reparations. But black people are the only ones who have received nothing for their suffering? I dont believe in them asking for anything because I believe if they stay patient and do what they're supposed to do (that they're not doing now) they'll get that and more from America without even lifting a finger. But with that said, I dont understand the logic of people being against it.
 





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#46
Having integrity as a nation would be finding a point of origin to start making changes. This is a good point of origin. Having integrity is looking for ways to improve our foundation. This would help improve our foundation.

I truly would need support to believe it would cause race riots too since I don’t personally a lot of the negativity the media presents as well. I truly think this is a sensationalized comment. The only way I see it causing race riots is if Donald trump established it. Otherwise, I don’t see anything about this getting enough attention to cause a race riot.

This is what our country said it would do. It should do it. Saying that we should distribute a benefit like this among everyone who ever has experienced discrimination in America as though this were the Soviet Union is what would cause problems. These people were promised something they didn’t get. They should get this because it was promised to them alone.
It would get worldwide attention. The fallout is anyone's guess. I don't think it would be simple, either. Especially determining who qualified though you seem to think it would be a breeze. There are also people who have intermarried with other races.. will their children be penalized?
 





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#47
Sounds like an excuse. Nobody riots when their money goes to fight these wars or worse, Israel. But all of a sudden it goes to people this country purposely hurt for centuries and thats a problem? You mean to tell me if they redirected money that went to Israel and other countries, that our tax dollars goes to or money that goes to wars, and redirected it to descendants of slaves that people would still have a problem? Of course they would but I dont see the LOGICAL reason as to why they would...

Tell me this, the native (not indigenous) Americans got reparations to the tune of land, money, casinos (and broken promises) for what they went thru. This country gave "Jews" reparations (3 billion a year) for stuff they (allegedly) had no hand in. Japanese went thru 1-4 years of internment camps during WW2 in America and got some sort of reparations. But black people are the only ones who have received nothing for their suffering? I dont believe in them asking for anything because I believe if they stay patient and do what they're supposed to do (that they're not doing now) they'll get that and more from America without even lifting a finger. But with that said, I dont understand the logic of people being against it.
The government is currently cutting or trying to cut all social safety net programs under the auspices of “we can’t afford it” - do you really think that saying at the same time we are going to give 500billion dollars to the third generation descendents of slaves is going to go over well with the people who are struggling to survive financially and depend on those programs?

They aren’t going to take the money from Israel. Or wars. They never do. They should, but they never do. The money will come off the backs of those who can afford it least.

There are ways to do this, perhaps, which wouldn’t be so problematic but imo unless it’s paired with something that helps ALL who are experiencing poverty - considering the climate in this country right now - we are going to have a problem. Racial tensions are high, hate crimes are increasing yearly... personally I don’t want to light the match that sets that bomb off.

Tell me what’s the goal of reparations? Because I always thought it was to close the wealth gap between the classes that was caused by slavery and segregation. Even as originally proposed it was to provide assets to former slaves so they could start their lives on a fair footing. There are other, less controversial, ways to do that then calling it “reparations” and driving a wedge into an already fractured racial divide in this country.
 





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#48
The government is currently cutting or trying to cut all social safety net programs under the auspices of “we can’t afford it” - do you really think that saying at the same time we are going to give 500billion dollars to the third generation descendents of slaves is going to go over well with the people who are struggling to survive financially and depend on those programs?

They aren’t going to take the money from Israel. Or wars. They never do. They should, but they never do. The money will come off the backs of those who can afford it least.

There are ways to do this, perhaps, which wouldn’t be so problematic but imo unless it’s paired with something that helps ALL who are experiencing poverty - considering the climate in this country right now - we are going to have a problem. Racial tensions are high, hate crimes are increasing yearly... personally I don’t want to light the match that sets that bomb off.

Tell me what’s the goal of reparations? Because I always thought it was to close the wealth gap between the classes that was caused by slavery and segregation. Even as originally proposed it was to provide assets to former slaves so they could start their lives on a fair footing. There are other, less controversial, ways to do that then calling it “reparations” and driving a wedge into an already fractured racial divide in this country.
Well I see it like this. I come and take your house and send you and your family elsewhere. Three generations later, your great (great?) grandchildren come back to the house and say it belongs to them. Whats the right thing to do? America got fat off the backs off free labor? People are supposed to forgive and forget? While they watch America CURRENTLY pay billions of dollars to people they never harmed in WW2? Japanese got reparations from WW2? Native (not indigenous) Americans got them too? So whats the argument for these groups getting it but not the group that got it undoubtedly the worst? How does helping EVERYONE right or at least attempt to right the wrong done to one specific group? And wouldnt THAT be the goal of "reparations"? To right the wrongs done to specific group that a country benefited off of? Alot of questions I know, but its just to make one think if theres really a logical, secular answer as to why reparations arent deserved.

And race tensions have always been high in this country. And if you say they havent then you're saying that they havent then you're at the very least talking about a timespan of the 70's to somewhere in the 2000's out of the US's existence. And if reparations causes people to actually lash out then that shows that they have a problem with the people receiving them because no one (and I mean no one) is lashing out about the billions going to Israel beyond computer screens.

Im not arguing that America should pay or that black people should be asking, expecting, or demanding they pay. Im just saying from a logical, secular perspective, theres no argument against it. And I dont think sparing people's feelings is a solid argument against it.
 





Sunshine

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#49
No one else was ever offered reparations and had this offer neglected. We are under no obligation to pay reparations to those who may have suffered discrimination after coming to this country by choice.

Reparations are in response to Africans coming to this country by force and being forced to work as slaves.
Do you not realize that those Africans who became slaves were captured by, and sold to the white Europeans, by other Africans? If you want reparations, start there.

No one whose ancestors came here after slavery ended "agreed," in your words, to pay, or have their descendants pay any money to the descendants of former slaves. If they had, we certainly would have heard about it before now.

Why is this even an issue? It has nothing to do with "healing." It's just people being greedy for money they didn't earn. It's a like a free winning lottery ticket to them, that's all. Besides, so many blacks live below the poverty line, they already get untold millions in state and federal aid, year after year after year. SNAP, Medicaid, Section 8, free phones and rent and utilities and internet, free breakfast and lunches in school, free after-school activities and day-care, and let's not forget free birth control and abortions. In a way, we've already been paying your "reparations," since the 1970's at least.

Blacks only comprise 16% of the overall populationof the US, yet 41%, almost half, have participated in one or more public assistance program. I've known people who have spent their entire lives on public assistance, and have no ambition toward getting off of it. It's not a safety net any more. It's a way of life. That's your reparations, right there.
 





morita

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#50
Immigration doesn't compare to being forced to slavery for hundreds of years. Whose labour built this country?
White people on this thread are trying so hard to look like they're oppressed. Even if you're a strugling white person in America you still have privilege bc of your skin color. You have easier access to ressources, to jobs, etc. You're still ripping the benefits of white supremacy.
 





morita

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#51
And race tensions have always been high in this country. And if you say they havent then you're at the very least talking about a timespan of the 70's to somewhere in the 2000's out of the US's existence. And if reparations causes people to actually lash out then that shows that they have a problem with the people receiving them because no one (and I mean no one) is lashing out about the billions going to Israel beyond computer screens.
I think white people get the idea that "racial tensions are high" all of the sudden because of social media. It's given a platform to poc that they didn't have before to be vocal about race and racial inequity.
 





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#54
I think white people get the idea that "racial tensions are high" all of the sudden because of social media. It's given a platform to poc that they didn't have before to be vocal about race and racial inequity.
Well it used to be avoidable for some. Now, not so much. And the media is definitely fanning the flames in regards to it as well.
 





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#55
Reparations are like Affirmative Action...... they are both whats owed and they are also both correct in theory. In practice, they are just another crutch for Caucasian Americans to say "Ok, we humored you and invested the very minimum we could get away with in these programs, so dont ever complain about racism again because its now been solved" and for that reason, I cant support their implementation.
 





Lisa

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#56
Reparations are like Affirmative Action...... they are both whats owed and they are also both correct in theory. In practice, they are just another crutch for Caucasian Americans to say "Ok, we humored you and invested the very minimum we could get away with in these programs, so dont ever complain about racism again because its now been solved" and for that reason, I cant support their implementation.
If any reparations were to be owed anyone it should have happened with the actual slaves, not their descendants.
 





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#57
If any reparations were to be owed anyone it should have happened with the actual slaves, not their descendants.
So by your logic, the state of Israel and its Jewish citizens should get not one more penny from another foreign government now..... especially from Germany for their part in the Holocaust or America for our part in delivering them from it eh?
 





Lisa

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#58
So by your logic, the state of Israel and its Jewish citizens should get not one more penny from another foreign government now..... especially from Germany for their part in the Holocaust or America for our part in delivering them from it eh?
That makes no sense...all western governments give handouts to many foreign governments..not just Israel. And ya we should probably cut them all off but we really don’t understand why governments pay off other governments....do we? Especially when all that foreign aid just goes to the elite of those countries and doesn’t trickle down to the people who need it the most.
 





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#60
Immigration doesn't compare to being forced to slavery for hundreds of years. Whose labour built this country?
overwhelmingly european americans.

in 1860, there were about 3.5 to 4 million slaves in the south. 500,000 free blacks lived in the north. thats not a lot compared to other ethnic groups in the US which made up the other 26 million. (blacks have never been more than 19% of the population.) those slaves mustve been working septuple shifts in order to outpace everyone elses labor.

if slavery was so productive, why wasnt the south unbelievably rich? the american south was always poorer than the north, yet the north didnt have slaves. 90% of the industrial production at the start of the civil war was from the slave-free north.

if you want to talk about cotton, it did comprise 1/2 of the US` exports, but that wasnt very much in the grand scheme of things (6% of the GNP). yes, slaves did that. but who did the mining? the actual construction? timber industry? who laid the railroad ties? the telegraph lines?