Skeptic Mangles ZEITGEIST (and Religious History)

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#1
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/skeptic-zeitgeist.html

Interesting fact, Horus did have 12 disciples, like Jesus. Excerpt (I recommend reading the whole page too) :

Horus and the 12
When Callahan makes such comments as, "I have absolutely no idea where Joseph got the notion that Horus had 12 disciples or that he was ever crucified," he is revealing again that he did not even look at the sources for ZEITGEIST before presenting himself an expert on the subject. This sentence betrays Callahan's shallow knowledge of the subject--he has no ideawhere this information came from, because he has not studied the subject in depth; therefore, ZG must be wrong! If Callahan had checked with me first, I could have steered him in the right direction as to where to find these various aspects of the Egyptian mythos. For example, he could have read the work of Dr. Hornung, in which he produces this wonderful image from the Book of Amduat of Horus heading the 12:


Horus enthroned before the Twelve,
Seventh Hour of the Amduat.
(Hornung, The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife, 48)​

From the Egyptian texts, images and artifacts themselves--that is where we get these notions!

In my various books, I include an extensive discussion of the mythical motif of the "Twelve Followers," devoting an entire chapter to it in Christ in Egypt. That the 12 became an astrological theme in religions of the Roman Empire is a proven fact not only with the cults of Mithra and the Egyptian hybrid god Serapis but also with the 12 Tribes of Israel. As I relate in Christ in Egypt (261):

As is the case with other major characteristics of the Egyptian gods that have been associated with Jesus, the claim that Horus had 12 "disciples" cannot be found easily in modern encyclopedias or mainstream books. In reality, the association of the sun god with "the Twelve" constitutes a common motif, based on both the months of the year and the 12-hour divisions of day and night. Indeed, we find the theme of "the Twelve" in a number of other cultures, including the 12 Olympian gods of Greece, as well as those of the Romans, along with the 12 adventures of Gilgamesh, the 12 labors of Hercules and the 12 Tribes of Israel, all of which symbolize the months of the year and/or the zodiacal signs.​
In a footnote to this paragraph, I write:

See Exodus 39:9-14: "...they made the breastplate... And they set in it four rows of stones... And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve...according to the twelve tribes." As Josephus says (Antiquities, 3.8): "And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning." (Josephus, 75.) Earlier than Josephus, Philo ("On the Life of Moses," 12) had made the same comments regarding Moses: "Then the twelve stones on the breast, which are not like one another in colour, and which are divided into four rows of three stones in each, what else can they be emblems of, except of the circle of the zodiac?" (Philo, 99.)​
As we can see, by the first century it was well known that the theme of "the 12" was astrological in nature.

In Christ in Egypt I provide the evidence for the rest of the Egyptian claims in ZG, including an entire 32-page chapter entitled "Was Horus 'Crucified?'" There was in reality no need for the mystification that unfortunately indicates ignorance of the subject matter. In CIE, I show that not only is Horus associated with the sacred cross in a number of ways but that, in an important pre-Christian icon, he was also placed on the cross of the vernal equinox, between two "thieves."
 





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#4
Good guess, I'm just discovering this myself but this page shows all the evidence I can find:

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html
Yeah... I don't think the ankh was a cross in the same sense in Egypt. You know it had almost like a handle, I think? Like a T? But they carried them around.


I'm pretty sure she's not *booping* his nose with it, but I don't think it was used for the death penalty either. :/
 





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#6
Good guess, I'm just discovering this myself but this page shows all the evidence I can find:

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html
I saw that page too... :)

Hey, could you clarify please? I'm honestly not sure what side of the debate you're on here, Helioform lol

I am not a believer in the Zeitgeist thing-- I've found that much of myth applied to Jesus was done by the Roman Catholic church. I also think that Satan already knew of the sets of "12" being a part Gods creation... it makes sense that he would co-opt them.
 





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#7
I saw that page too... :)

Hey, could you clarify please? I'm honestly not sure what side of the debate you're on here, Helioform lol

I am not a believer in the Zeitgeist thing-- I've found that much of myth applied to Jesus was done by the Roman Catholic church. I also think that Satan already knew of the sets of "12" being a part Gods creation... it makes sense that he would co-opt them.
^ So much wisdom in Exodus 7*....

*Middle of the night here otherwise I would write more!!
 





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#8
I saw that page too... :)

Hey, could you clarify please? I'm honestly not sure what side of the debate you're on here, Helioform lol

I am not a believer in the Zeitgeist thing-- I've found that much of myth applied to Jesus was done by the Roman Catholic church. I also think that Satan already knew of the sets of "12" being a part Gods creation... it makes sense that he would co-opt them.
I think there is much truth exposed at that site, the Zeitgeist thing was just a very brief summary of it with some errors in it. Some people used the errors as a way to try and invalidate the sun/Christ relationship theory.
 





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#9
Yeah... I don't think the ankh was a cross in the same sense in Egypt. You know it had almost like a handle, I think? Like a T? But they carried them around.


I'm pretty sure she's not *booping* his nose with it, but I don't think it was used for the death penalty either. :/
It was a symbol of eternal life. To raise Osiris from the dead...
 





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#10
I saw that page too... :)



I am not a believer in the Zeitgeist thing-- I've found that much of myth applied to Jesus was done by the Roman Catholic church. I also think that Satan already knew of the sets of "12" being a part Gods creation... it makes sense that he would co-opt them.
There are Jewish and Pagan mythological associations with Christ, for the simple reason the writers used mythology of their target audiences to convert people ( and later the Church )

I don’t need miracles or mythology to know that Jesus is “God” the teaching speaks for itself.

I think the similarities between Jesus and Dionysus ( especially from The Bacchae ) stand out.

This isn’t me in anyway trying to downplay/deny Jesus, but the similarities are there and it was probably done intentionally.
 





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#11
There are Jewish and Pagan mythological associations with Christ, for the simple reason the writers used mythology of their target audiences to convert people ( and later the Church )

I don’t need miracles or mythology to know that Jesus is “God” the teaching speaks for itself.

I think the similarities between Jesus and Dionysus ( especially from The Bacchae ) stand out.

This isn’t me in anyway trying to downplay/deny Jesus, but the similarities are there and it was probably done intentionally.
That last part yes.. I'm sure it was intentional.
 





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#12
I was struck by the similarity between the Osiris legend and Nimrod. It seems that truth and "story" have been in place for a very long time, perhaps even from the beginning.

If you were to allow for Satan being real, and taking prophecy seriously, he may be the biggest student of messiology and eschatology out there.

I remember as a child there was an untruthful kid in my class with an active imagination. My teacher told her more than once not to "tell tales".

Apt.
 





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#13
I was struck by the similarity between the Osiris legend and Nimrod. It seems that truth and "story" have been in place for a very long time, perhaps even from the beginning.

If you were to allow for Satan being real, and taking prophecy seriously, he may be the biggest student of messiology and eschatology out there.

I remember as a child there was an untruthful kid in my class with an active imagination. My teacher told her more than once not to "tell tales".

Apt.
Osiris and Nimrod, indeed... I've even heard / that Osiris was just another name for Nimrod. Not to go OT, but there is no doubt who it is that fueled them.

From JOSEPHUS...

Now it was Nimrod who excited them to such an affront and contempt of God. He was the grandson of Ham, the son of Noah, a bold man, and of great strength of hand. He persuaded them not to ascribe it to God, as if it were through his means they were happy, but to believe that it was their own courage which procured that happiness. He also gradually changed the government into tyranny, seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence on his power.

He also said he would be revenged on God, if he should have a mind to drown the world again; for that he would build a tower too high for the waters to reach. And that he would avenge himself on God for destroying their forefathers.

Now the multitude were very ready to follow the determination of Nimrod, and to esteem it a piece of cowardice to submit to God; and they built a tower, neither sparing any pains, nor being in any degree negligent about the work: and, by reason of the multitude of hands employed in it, it grew very high, sooner than any one could expect; but the thickness of it was so great, and it was so strongly built, that thereby its great height seemed, upon the view, to be less than it really was. It was built of burnt brick, cemented together with mortar, made of bitumen, that it might not be liable to admit water. When God saw that they acted so madly, he did not resolve to destroy them utterly, since they were not grown wiser by the destruction of the former sinners; but he caused a tumult among them, by producing in them diverse languages, and causing that, through the multitude of those languages, they should not be able to understand one another. The place wherein they built the tower is now called Babylon, because of the confusion of that language which they readily understood before; for the Hebrews mean by the word Babel, confusion ...
 





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#14
I was able to find more info on the crucifixion of Horus:

As we have seen, the fox and jackal were both of them Typhonian types of the dark power, the thief of light in the moon, and co-types, therefore, with the dragon that swallowed the moon during an eclipse. Now, the name of Herod in Syriac denotes a red dragon; and the red dragon in Revelation, which stands ready to devour the young child that is about to be born, is the mythical form of the Herod who has been made historical in our gospels. Here the legendary devourer, the dark half of the lunation. The Germans have a saying that the wolf is eating the candle when there is what is still called a thief in it. So the primitive observers saw the dark encroaching on the light, and they said the wolf, jackal, rat, or other sly animal was eating the moon as the thief of its light. This is why Hermes was represented as the thief. In two different forms of the lunar mythos the jackal and the dog-headed ape were two types of this thief of the light. And in the zodiac of Denderah, just where Horus is on the cross, or at the crossing of the vernal equinox, these two thieves, Sut-Anup and Aan, are depicted one on either side of the luni-solar god. These two mythical originals have, I think, been continued and humanised as the two thieves in the Gospel version of the crucifixion.

http://gerald-massey.org.uk/massey/dpr_07_luniolatry.htm
 





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#15
I was struck by the similarity between the Osiris legend and Nimrod. It seems that truth and "story" have been in place for a very long time, perhaps even from the beginning.
There are a lot of parallels between Jesus and Osiris as well.

If you were to allow for Satan being real, and taking prophecy seriously, he may be the biggest student of messiology and eschatology out there.
Wouldn't he hate that instead?

I remember as a child there was an untruthful kid in my class with an active imagination. My teacher told her more than once not to "tell tales".

Apt.
I fail to see how this is relevant.
 





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#16
I was able to find more info on the crucifixion of Horus:

As we have seen, the fox and jackal were both of them Typhonian types of the dark power, the thief of light in the moon, and co-types, therefore, with the dragon that swallowed the moon during an eclipse. Now, the name of Herod in Syriac denotes a red dragon; and the red dragon in Revelation, which stands ready to devour the young child that is about to be born, is the mythical form of the Herod who has been made historical in our gospels. Here the legendary devourer, the dark half of the lunation. The Germans have a saying that the wolf is eating the candle when there is what is still called a thief in it. So the primitive observers saw the dark encroaching on the light, and they said the wolf, jackal, rat, or other sly animal was eating the moon as the thief of its light. This is why Hermes was represented as the thief. In two different forms of the lunar mythos the jackal and the dog-headed ape were two types of this thief of the light. And in the zodiac of Denderah, just where Horus is on the cross, or at the crossing of the vernal equinox, these two thieves, Sut-Anup and Aan, are depicted one on either side of the luni-solar god. These two mythical originals have, I think, been continued and humanised as the two thieves in the Gospel version of the crucifixion.

http://gerald-massey.org.uk/massey/dpr_07_luniolatry.htm
They may... Or the God who spread out the heavens may have known all the patterns and associations they would have had from the very beginning. In the war of truth, you ultimately need to make a choice on who to believe.
 





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#18
Interesting topic. For me, the zeitgeist subject centers on which ancient civilization was first rather than trying to focus on which one of these examples bears the closest resemblance to the story of Christ.

I have been reading on Mithras which was practiced in Rome during the time of early Christianity.

This is one article I looked at about Mithras, Josephus and Jewish elite http://www.viewzone.com/mithras.html

I’m pretty sure this one points out how odd it was that Roman authority who established a Mithras secret society with initiations and all the trimmings, all accepted the change from this belief to Christianity along with Constantine.

I guess a survivor of ritual abuse named Fiona Barnett says that the Catholic Church never did change from the worship of Mithras.

Mithras was supposed to have been born of a virgin and had a last supper.

Mithras is to Mithra as Horus is to Osiris essentially. So the question is which one of these was first, which is difficult to tell. Egypt would travel along the Fertile Crescent so you could say Egypt originated from ancient Mesopotamia or that mithra was closer to point of origin. However Egypt says they originate from Ethiopia from what I found briefly on the subject, which is another ancient civilization.

So the point of origin is the important aspect of this discussion I think. Who came first.
 





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#19
It’s unlikely that Jesus had exactly 12 disciples anyway. He may had more, or less and at least 15 names are mentioned ( thus starting so and so is actually so and so ) and it’s pretty obvious that the number 12 comes from Jewish myth which has its origins in the mythology of North Africa and Mesopotamia.
 





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#20
@Helioform

If I were the Devil, at what point in history might I have suspected God had a plan to oppose me, and what form might this opposition take?
Good question...I don't think Satan would know until the very end of the world that he would end up in the lake of fire (God's opposition). So studying eschatology and messiology would not be worthwhile during all the time before that as he would not have a clue he would be defeated in such a way. Better to waste time turning people against God instead rather than study things that have no meaning to him.

So I don't buy the idea that "Satan" used all these similar stories of redemptive figures who died and were resurrected, just to imitate and lead people astray. There is just no point in doing so because most do not see the similarities between all religions; the mainstream thing to do is to believe in a single one and ignore the others.

I don't see anyone worshipping Horus or any figure that you may see as "counterfeit", except really fringe religious groups...or the "Illuminati." There is 1 billion Catholics in the world, and about 1 billion Muslims? I don't see them converting anytime soon.

Anyhow I do not believe in Satan as a real being. Anyone can become a Satan, or a Jesus even if they choose to. Jesus said to do as he did, because that is the heart of his message.
 





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