Should Christians return to the Law of Moses?

[bible_student]

Okay.. so you do, or you don't, believe Christ was the final offering (once, for all), paying the (blood) debt for our sins / inborn sin nature? I think maybe you don't?

Okay. If you read Romans 3:25 - what does it say in the last half of the verse? In other words, which sins does it say? (P.S. look at the KJV - the NIV is crap).

Trying to get a handle on what you actually believe, here. Because it seems like you believe we have walk a tightrope to get to heaven.. :/

@elsbet To know about that, we have to take a close look at what Jesus said about this:

Matthew
7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the Law and the Prophets.
7:13 Enter ye in at the "Strait" gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because Strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] The Way, which leadeth unto Life, and few there be that find it.

So... do we have to walk "a tightrope"? I never actually heard it put that way before, but, from these above verses it does kind of seem like it, doesn't it?... He didn't say take up the wide road and travel it. He said no, that one is the wrong path.

Rather than call it a tightrope, we probably do better to just stick with the strait and narrow Way which leadeth unto Life. We know it's not the broad path, because Jesus said that one leads to destruction.

Question - Have you ever read the book "The Pilgrim's Progress", please? It was delivered under the similitude of a dream. (and happen to know where a PDF copy can be found).

"Wherein is discovered
the manner of his setting out, his dangerous journey
and safe arrival at the Desired Country."

 

[Douglas Summers]

Additionally, as @bible_student gives equal credence to both the Bible ("King of Kings" version of course) and the Qur'an.

As Laws are expressed in both the OT Commandments and the Levitical law (perhaps 600 other laws) as well as the Qur'an (with its own set of legal requirements) I have to ask...

How do you harmonise and fully comply with the religious laws of both Muslims and Jews. Should we pray five times a day facing Mecca, celebrate Biblical feasts, avoid sabbath journeys, pay Zakat etc etc, or has JAH produced a new harmonised set of rules that is the "new revelation"?

There are many written laws in all religions. Man has never kept them, but instead, used them to condemn other men. When I was born again, I came under the Law Of Christ. I no longer pride myself by the letter of the Law, because, if you live by the letter (Pride), And you brake just one law....the penalty is the same for all of them...DEATH! And Christ is no avail to you, because you have chosen works over God's gift of grace. It is God's grace that produces in us to reflect God's Grace to other...for that, there is no law....it is heredity by the birth of the Holy Spirit in the Born again believer.

 

[KoncreteMind]

I would and have argued against this position just as adamantly as I will argue against BHI

Which is exactly the problem. Every time you quote me you rant on about what they believe. I'll just go thru your post and tell you what I believe. You tell me what you need more proof of....

Regardless of your opinion which matters not compared to Scripture, all men are given exactly the same opportunity to be part of the "preferential" treatment

Heres what I believe:

Isaiah 56:1-8

Spoiler

Thus says the Lord:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give [a]them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

Ezekiel 37:21-28

Spoiler

21This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding,[b] and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.


24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

According to the OT THESE are the end times. God will gather Israel back to their land and foreigners who "hold fast to the Covenant" and "keeps from defiling the Sabbath" would be gathered along with Israel. God then says that His servant David (why didnt He just say your gods name?) would be king over them and they would follow HIS LAWS and be careful to keep His DECREES. His "LAWS" are obviously (biblically speaking that is) in the first 5 books and first 5 books only...Heres what I believe about things that go against that:

Isaiah 8
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there[o] is no light in them.

No light.

That is as ignorant as me a White man with Germanic Descent

And see that makes plenty of sense. You know who's also of Germanic descent? The so called Ashkenazi Jews. Heres what I believe of them:

Genesis 10
2 The sons[a] of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshek and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer:
Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah.

In no way shape or form, can they be considered Jews. They're pretenders. But they're probably close family to you genealogically. So thats probably why you dont want to discuss the identity theft that the bible speaks of. This is speaking of them:

Deuteronomy 28
9 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young.

There was also a Holy Catholic church in Germany before there was one in Rome... Theres that hidden history we're not told about too

Spoiler

So lets see you are going to reject Christ because a Non Christian Organization used His name when they went and tried to take over the world not for evangelization purposes but for power and greed?

Im going to reject him because people's first introduction was when people were invading, stealing, murdering, enslaving, raping, etc... them. There were kingdoms taken down behind that belief system. That’s how your god introduced himself to people so why wouldnt I reject him? Then I personally read the OT and conclude that I cannot accept the NT at whole without ignoring some parts of it or the OT to make it all fit.. And then the NT is written in Greek while the OT is written in Hebrew?

And again you have zero clue about understanding Prophecies, just as you constantly deny any Prophecy that Christ clearly fulfills you even deny that they are Messianic in nature. Psalm 2 is Messianic, you try and deny this because Jesus clearly fulfills it, the same with Isaiah 7:14, this is Messianic Prophecy aka the Messiah has to fulfill it, if the person who claims he is the Messiah doesnt fulfill it then he is to be cast out. In context of the surrounding chapters, it is clearly evident that Isaiah 7:14 and other passage before and after are Messianic in nature.

Isaiah 7

Spoiler

11 Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above. 12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord. 13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Ahaz was told to ask for a sign.And God gave him one concerning the THREAT he was facing AT THAT TIME. Theres no room for this being a sign for thousands of years later EXCEPT when you do what is typical for your belief system in taking a verse or chapter and making it stand on its own. I posted part of the context so you could explain, using the context how a sign for Ahaz concerning the 2 kings who were making war against him, was a sign for your future god?

I also asked about the messiah coming twice... You have that verse from the OT?

And the Jews understood that God was both invisible and visible and tried to wrap their head around it, PERIOD. Do you believe God is a man or not?

Bring me laws man. Not interpretations but laws...

Deuteronomy 4

Spoiler

15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the [e]form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, 18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth. 19 And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the Lord your God has [f]given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage. 20 But the Lord has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be His people, an inheritance, as you are this day.

If you cant bring me a LAW that shows three in one or worship a father/son god then I have to go with this:

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: [a]The Lord our God, the Lord is one

One. Not 2 in 1 or 3 in 1 like He obviously could have said here, but didnt....

Well thats not in the Old Testament or the New Testament so IDK what relevance any of this has to do with our discussion. I can quote plenty of actual Scriptures about how the actual Hebrews rejected their God, and rejected their Prophets, and tried to kill them or did kill them when they told them the Truth or spoke about destruction that would come their way ect ect ect. There is this one guy, IDK if you have ever heard of Him, His name is Jesus and He told the Jews to repent of them following their false Gods and accept their Messiah or else they would be destroyed and well they killed Him. Just so happens not too long after the Jews killed their Messiah, Israel was utterly destroyed for not heeding the warnings given to them by the Prophet of God.

Its to point out that it wasnt as simple as Israel not obeying. Gentiles, like you, were fighting tooth and nail to get them to disobey. And thats important in understanding what happened to them and why it happened. The same Greek hands the NT came from, were the same Greek hands writing laws to get them to disobey. Why? Because they, like other Gentiles knew that:

Judith 5
20 Sir, if these people are now sinning against their god, even unknowingly, and if we can be sure that they are guilty of some offense, we can successfully attack them. 21 But if they have not disobeyed the law of their god, then you should leave them alone, or he will defend them, and we will be disgraced before the whole world.

Same concept as Deuteronomy 28. Obey, you're blessed. Disobey, you're cursed. Gentiles found that out and started trying to get them to disobey thru religion or force...Thats exactly what Maccabees shows which is why you dont want to address it.

Except literally God said He was going to bring a New Covenant that ISNT the same as the Old Covenant, but hey if you want to continue with the real Hebrews and Jews and reject what God told them and continue to reject Your Savior as they do, then so be it, but dont act like God hasnt literally told you He was going to move everyone from the Old Covenant:

Yea the New covenant was to be made with Israel and Judah. Not you (unless you want to do as they were to do). The law is NOT a covenant. It was part of the old covenant and is part of the new covenant. The old covenant was conditional. Obey = blessing, disobey = curses. The new one wont be as EVERYONE (in Israel and Judah) will know God and will not have to teach one another. That is obviously not in effect.

 

[TokiEl]

There are many written laws in all religions. Man has never kept them, but instead, used them to condemn other men. When I was born again, I came under the Law Of Christ. I no longer pride myself by the letter of the Law, because, if you live by the letter (Pride), And you brake just one law....the penalty is the same for all of them...DEATH! And Christ is no avail to you, because you have chosen works over God's gift of grace. It is God's grace that produces in us to reflect God's Grace to other...for that, there is no law....it is heredity by the birth of the Holy Spirit in the Born again believer.

There is no law... against love compassion charity righteousness etc etc... which are the fruits of the Holy spirit.

 

[bible_student]

There are many written laws in all religions. Man has never kept them, but instead, used them to condemn other men. When I was born again, I came under the Law Of Christ. I no longer pride myself by the letter of the Law, because, if you live by the letter (Pride), And you brake just one law....the penalty is the same for all of them...DEATH! And Christ is no avail to you, because you have chosen works over God's gift of grace. It is God's grace that produces in us to reflect God's Grace to other...for that, there is no law....it is heredity by the birth of the Holy Spirit in the Born again believer.

To the born-again believer there is no pride in keeping and living by The Law... but there is the Joy!

The born-again believer knows, that keeping and living by The Law is his/her own personal spiritual exercise and duty, and that The Law is a Blessing not a curse (to all those who keep it)!

Ecclesiastes
12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His Commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into Judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

To the truly born-again believer, knowing and living by The Law, is more to be desired than gold and sweeter than honey and the honeycomb:

Psalms
19:7 The Law of the "I AM" [is] Perfect, converting the soul: The Covenant of the "I AM" [is] sure, making wise the simple.
19:8 The Statutes of the "I AM" [are] right, rejoicing the heart: the Commandment of the "I AM" [is] pure, enlightening the eyes.
19:9 The fear of the "I AM" [is] clean, enduring for ever: the Judgments of the "I AM" [are] True [and] Righteous altogether.
19:10 More to be desired [are they] than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Paul wrote about this being the spiritual joy and duty of every truly born-again believer.

Romans
12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your spiritual duty.
12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, Will of God.

To the truly born-again believer, living by The Law is a Blessing!

Psalm
119:97 MEM. O how love I Thy Law! It [is] my meditation all the day.
119:113 SAMECH. I hate [vain] thoughts: but Thy Law do I love.
119:119 Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth [like] dross: therefore I love Thy Testimonies.
119:127 Therefore I love Thy Commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold.
119:140 Thy word [is] very pure: therefore Thy servant loveth it.
119:163 I hate and abhor lying: [but] Thy Law do I love.
119:164 Seven times a day do I praise Thee because of Thy Righteous Judgments.
119:165 Great peace have they which love Thy Law: and nothing shall offend them.
119:166 "I AM", I have hoped for Thy salvation, and done Thy Commandments.
119:167 My soul hath kept Thy Testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.

To the truly born-again believer, there can be nothing better than the Blessing that is experienced and comes only from loving The Law and Living by The Law!

Nothing can be better!

Anyone who thinks they have been "born-again", but then yet still find themselves not loving The Law, are deluding themselves (their "Self" is alive and in control and is deluding and blinding them) and they need to become truly born-again (which only happens when the human-"self" is defeated and dies) before they can SEE The Kingdom, along with the beauty and the wisdom of The Law.

The human "Self" (which is your WORST enemy) absolutely HATES The Law, with a passion, because "it" (the "Self") wants to keep itself alive and in control (of you) and "it" only wants to keep on serving itself and it's master Satan.

The human "self" is YOUR worst enemy.

The human-animal absolutely HATES God's Law. This is because The Law is meant for spiritual beings who can and will understand it, not for humans. Humans cannot ever understand The Law. The Law makes absolutely no sense to a human, since The Law (which teaches unselfishness and the Love of God) is completely alien to and contrary to humans. Humans are selfish creatures and are horrible. So, it will NEVER make sense to a human (or if studied from a human point of view). How could it? It (God's Law) teaches you (the being) to crucify the human "Ego/Self" daily (to destroy its selfishness and ego, that is making your life, and other people's lives around you, a complete misery) and tells you that it (the human - your "self") is your enemy. And that you (the being) are imprisoned inside of it (inside of the body that you are using) and that you (the being) need to learn to take control of it and master it and overcome its selfishness, instead of it mastering and controlling you (which is the default position) and that it (the human) is dragging you towards "The Fire", with it.

Unless/until you become born-again as your spirit-being (the REAL you - which is NOT human) you cannot possibly SEE the Kingdom of God because your "Self" will still be in complete control of you and will be blinding you to it, for it's master Satan, to keep you from being able to see and learn the truth that YOU (your being) NEEDS to learn in order to be able to be released from this Prison, because "it" (the human "Self" - YOUR own worst and deadly ENEMY) wants to keep you here and get you EXECUTED, along with Satan, on the Last Day which is now imminent.

Your human "self" actually works for Satan and it wants to get you KILLED (spiritually).

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot SEE the Kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (human) and then is born (later) from above as his spirit-"Being" (his REAL self which is NOT human), he can NOT enter into the Kingdom of God (Who is a Spirit-"Being").
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is human; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (a spirit-"Being") - (a human+Being).
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

That is why Christ said we need to pick up our cross and follow Him and crucify the "self" daily, because, if you don't destroy it (your Ego/"Self") then "it" (the "Self") will destroy YOU (for Satan).

Romans
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to The Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
8:8 So then they that are in the ways of flesh cannot please God.
King of kings' Bible

That is why the "Self" (your Ego) must die, because if you don't destroy the ego/"self" (by crucifying it) then it will destroy you.
http://jahtruth.net/natgra

 

[KoncreteMind]

Pt2

Now when it comes to the insanity of Black Hebrews, you are correct, I havent and wont spend my time debating this nonsense, because that is exactly what it is, nonsense. I dont care what bias sources or any other fake "Historians" you would provide, it is 100% know with zero doubts that Blacks are not now nor ever were the Original Hebrews. There is a term that is popular now a days, one in which 99% of the time I think is garbage, because it truly can not be applied to people who live in the modern world, and that term is Cultural Appropriation. However that is absolutely the best term that can be used to describe what you are doing, hijacking the Hebrew Culture and trying to make it into your own, or Black or White if you are Bible Student.

There is plenty of History for Africans, and plenty of History for Americans, plenty of History for you to identify with, but instead for whatever reason you have chosen to take the Non African, Non American, Non Black History and Culture of the Hebrews and apply it to yourself. That is as ignorant as me a White man with Germanic Descent trying to identify as a Black person and telling you that White Germans are actually the True Descendants of Africa. Just complete and total insanity and the opposite of all Historical Evidence and Record.

So you are right, Ill never enter into any debate with you or any other Black or White person that tries to tell me that they are the True Hebrews, yall are not, however if you really want to join the Family of God and inherit the Promises given to Abraham and all the rest of the Hebrews then get Born Again and you will be grafted into Israel and become part of the True Israel which is Spiritual Israel, which has no respect to anyones Race, Culture, Heritage, Age, Sex or any other physical aspect of a persons make up, period...

You're just ranting with no regard to the person you're ranting at. Im just going to lay out my beliefs so next time you quote me bringing them up outside of the topic of the thread, you can start from here and not from what BHI's believe. Stop trying to force me into a box I am not a part of. Anyways, Its Deuteronomy 28:46 that says that the curses would be a sign on the descendants of Israel forever. Heres ONE sign:

47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

Spoiler

I dont know about anyone else in modern times who have had iron yokes put on their necks that we have images of. Do you? Where is the holocaust (definition: a Jewish sacrificial offering that is burned completely on an altar.) mentioned biblically and how come we dont have any images of them being in iron yokes?

I also wonder if US stenographer Isaac Roberdeau was "faking history" when he mapped out a Native American mound with Hebrew Symbols in Ohio? Maybe Antonio de Montezinos was lying when he said he met people in Ecuador reciting the Shema? I wonder if Colombus was confused when he said he was looking to capture the holy land/India at a time where the land we know as India was called Hindustan? I wonder if his people were confused calling people of this land they were looking for Indios which means people of God in their language?

You talk about Africans but why was there a law passed that thru blacks, moors, and Indians into one group?

Christian parentage Act (Virginia Act 1682)

Spoiler

Virginia "Act I. It is enacted that all servants [...] which shall be imported into this country...whether Negroes, Moors, mulattoes or Indians who and whose parentage and native countries are not Christian at the time of their first purchase by some Christian [...] are hereby adjudged, deemed and taken to be slaves to all intents and purposes."

Notice Indians are included . Oh but then they passed a law that said, "except Moors" (i.e. Moors are exempt from being treated like blacks)...

Sundry Act

Spoiler

1790 advisory resolution passed by South Carolina House of Representatives, clarifying the status of free subjects of the Sultan of Morocco, Mohammed ben Abdallah. The resolution offered the opinion that free citizens of Morocco were not subject to laws governing blacks and slaves.

So these moors argued that they shouldnt be subject to the same laws as negroes. Abraham Lincoln defended a person who sued for libel for being called black though obviously looking as what you would call black...

Spoiler

William Dungey had no choice but to respond to what he considered to be a slanderous act (being accused of being black). His brother-in-law had dubbed him “Black Bill” and it was causing him harm. In October 1854 Dungey retained 46 year-old attorney Abraham Lincoln to respond to his brother-in-law’s libel. In April 1855, Lincoln filed suitagainst Spencer and after some legal wrangling, a hearing was set for the following May. Spencer’s attorneys, Clifton H. Moore and Lawrence Weldon, immediately went out to build their case against Dungey which was set for October 1855. They traveled back to Dungey’s home town of Giles County, TN to depose people who claimed to know his family.

Lincoln was prepared with a defense that memorialized his superior legal mind, elevated the complexity of the social construct of race and emphasized the criminalization of being a negro or black person in the United States. Despite his client sitting in court with the face of a black man with a light complexion, Lincoln’s argument was simple, Dungey was not negro. He was not black because his ancestral origins were of Portuguese descent, not the ambiguous, non-specific ancestry of being negro or black.

(Abraham Lincoln)

My client is not a Negro, though it is a crime to be a Negro–no crime to be born with a black skin. But my client is not a Negro. His skin may not be as white as ours, but I say he is not a Negro, though he may be a Moore.” Mr. Lincoln interrupted Judge Davis, scarcely able to restrain a smile, “You mean a Moor, not Moore.” “Well, your Honor, Moor, not C.H. Moore,” replied Mr. Lincoln, with a sweep of his long arm toward the table where Moore and I sat. “I say my client may be a Moor, but he is not a Negro.”

Slavery still in full effect in much of the nation, Lincoln was not seeking to absolve all people with skin that might be misinterpreted as black of the “crime” of being negro. He was simply drawing a distinction that one who could identify their ancestral origins of something other than black, to a specific culture, people group or nation was not subject to the same statutes that governed those who were or had been marred with the shameful badge of blackness. Despite the defendant’s claim that the white community in Dungey’s home town considered he and his family to be “negro,” or of “mixed blood,” Lincoln pointed out that no one who lived within 30 miles of the plaintiff was present to testify to that effect. Lincoln drew the distinction that not only was Dungey not negro or black, but that he quite possibly was of Moorish ancestry, by way of his Portuguese descent that would account for his skin tone but separate him from the domesticated amalgamation that defined those who were still in or who had emerged from the bonds of American captivity.
Read More Here

I bring this up to explain those "black" guys with the funny looking (but exquisite) clothes always in the back of George Washington photos... The last picture being a picture of the "wild men and the moors" (not my words) warring against each other. That is what was going on in Europe before they got to America...

Spoiler

Psalm 83

Spoiler

O God, do not remain silent;
do not turn a deaf ear,
do not stand aloof, O God.
2 See how your enemies growl,
how your foes rear their heads.
3 With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
4 “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
so that Israel’s name is remembered no more.”


5 With one mind they plot together;
they form an alliance against you—
6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
of Moab and the Hagrites,
7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
8 Even Assyria has joined them
to reinforce Lot’s descendants.

I bring that up to say that in my belief system its not as simple as black and white. Saying everyone is black dilutes real history that says there were black people in a variety of places.

Everyone turned on Israel when God turned His face from them. The Book of Maccabees and that Judith verse I posted showed that even Gentiles knew that when Israel was in obedience they couldnt take them over, and thats why you dont want to address it. None of this represents reality with those people who over there in "Israel" (barren land with no resources)getting tribute and protection from nations now as they set up freemason symbols on their land and allow gay parades. They're not obeying the laws in the Torah but are getting blessed as if they are. Either they're fake or the scriptures are fake.. So if you want to quote me about my belief system even when the thread doesnt call for it, then start HERE and not with the BHIs. Stop trying to force me into a box that I dont belong to....

 

[Douglas Summers]

To the born-again believer there is no pride in keeping and living by The Law... but there is the Joy!

The born-again believer knows, that keeping and living by The Law is his/her own personal spiritual exercise and duty, and that The Law is a Blessing not a curse (to all those who keep it)!

Ecclesiastes
12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His Commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into Judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

To the truly born-again believer, knowing and living by The Law, is more to be desired than gold and sweeter than honey and the honeycomb:

Psalms
19:7 The Law of the "I AM" [is] Perfect, converting the soul: The Covenant of the "I AM" [is] sure, making wise the simple.
19:8 The Statutes of the "I AM" [are] right, rejoicing the heart: the Commandment of the "I AM" [is] pure, enlightening the eyes.
19:9 The fear of the "I AM" [is] clean, enduring for ever: the Judgments of the "I AM" [are] True [and] Righteous altogether.
19:10 More to be desired [are they] than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Paul wrote about this being the spiritual joy and duty of every truly born-again believer.

Romans
12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your spiritual duty.
12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, Will of God.

To the truly born-again believer, living by The Law is a Blessing!

Psalm
119:97 MEM. O how love I Thy Law! It [is] my meditation all the day.
119:113 SAMECH. I hate [vain] thoughts: but Thy Law do I love.
119:119 Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth [like] dross: therefore I love Thy Testimonies.
119:127 Therefore I love Thy Commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold.
119:140 Thy word [is] very pure: therefore Thy servant loveth it.
119:163 I hate and abhor lying: [but] Thy Law do I love.
119:164 Seven times a day do I praise Thee because of Thy Righteous Judgments.
119:165 Great peace have they which love Thy Law: and nothing shall offend them.
119:166 "I AM", I have hoped for Thy salvation, and done Thy Commandments.
119:167 My soul hath kept Thy Testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.

To the truly born-again believer, there can be nothing better than the Blessing that is experienced and comes only from loving The Law and Living by The Law!

Nothing can be better!

Anyone who thinks they have been "born-again", but then yet still find themselves not loving The Law, are deluding themselves (their "Self" is alive and in control and is deluding and blinding them) and they need to become truly born-again (which only happens when the human-"self" is defeated and dies) before they can SEE The Kingdom, along with the beauty and the wisdom of The Law.

The human "Self" (which is your WORST enemy) absolutely HATES The Law, with a passion, because "it" (the "Self") wants to keep itself alive and in control (of you) and "it" only wants to keep on serving itself and it's master Satan.

The human "self" is YOUR worst enemy.

The human-animal absolutely HATES God's Law. This is because The Law is meant for spiritual beings who can and will understand it, not for humans. Humans cannot ever understand The Law. The Law makes absolutely no sense to a human, since The Law (which teaches unselfishness and the Love of God) is completely alien to and contrary to humans. Humans are selfish creatures and are horrible. So, it will NEVER make sense to a human (or if studied from a human point of view). How could it? It (God's Law) teaches you (the being) to crucify the human "Ego/Self" daily (to destroy its selfishness and ego, that is making your life, and other people's lives around you, a complete misery) and tells you that it (the human - your "self") is your enemy. And that you (the being) are imprisoned inside of it (inside of the body that you are using) and that you (the being) need to learn to take control of it and master it and overcome its selfishness, instead of it mastering and controlling you (which is the default position) and that it (the human) is dragging you towards "The Fire", with it.

Unless/until you become born-again as your spirit-being (the REAL you - which is NOT human) you cannot possibly SEE the Kingdom of God because your "Self" will still be in complete control of you and will be blinding you to it, for it's master Satan, to keep you from being able to see and learn the truth that YOU (your being) NEEDS to learn in order to be able to be released from this Prison, because "it" (the human "Self" - YOUR own worst and deadly ENEMY) wants to keep you here and get you EXECUTED, along with Satan, on the Last Day which is now imminent.

Your human "self" actually works for Satan and it wants to get you KILLED (spiritually).

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot SEE the Kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (human) and then is born (later) from above as his spirit-"Being" (his REAL self which is NOT human), he can NOT enter into the Kingdom of God (Who is a Spirit-"Being").
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is human; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (a spirit-"Being") - (a human+Being).
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

That is why Christ said we need to pick up our cross and follow Him and crucify the "self" daily, because, if you don't destroy it (your Ego/"Self") then "it" (the "Self") will destroy YOU (for Satan).

Romans
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to The Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
8:8 So then they that are in the ways of flesh cannot please God.
King of kings' Bible

That is why the "Self" (your Ego) must die, because if you don't destroy the ego/"self" (by crucifying it) then it will destroy you.
http://jahtruth.net/natgra

You quoted all that...mostly from the OT when Christ did away with the Old Covenant.....Not because it was not good, but because the problem was with man. So The Lord said He would make a New Covenant, where as one man would not say to the other man, "know the Lord," But put it into their minds and their hearts...So therefore, we are never without Christ and never without The comforter. That is being Born again....Not I, but Christ in us. For I was crucified with Christ (dead to self) and risen with Christ in His resurrection.....Really...….Not imaginary! Waiting for the redemption of our bodies. Flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, Nor shall corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[bible_student]

You quoted all that...mostly from the OT when Christ did away with the Old Covenant

No, Christ did not 'do away with it'. The churches however have helped to deceive christians everywhere into believing what you just said.

Christ said think not that He came to do away with The Law (written in the Mosaic/Old Covenant): He did not come to do away with it but to fully preach it.

Matthew
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill (Gr. "pleroo" - fully preach).
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from The Law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least COMMANDments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.
5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall EXCEED [the righteousness] of the lawyers and politicians, ye shall in no case enter into the Kingdom of heaven.

Still don't want to believe it? Then please read what Christ said further, in Revelation 14:12 and 15:3.

So The Lord said He would make a New Covenant, where as one man would not say to the other man, "know the Lord," But put it into their minds and their hearts...So therefore, we are never without Christ and never without The comforter. That is being Born again....Not I, but Christ in us. For I was crucified with Christ (dead to self) and risen with Christ in His resurrection.....Really...….Not imaginary! Waiting for the redemption of our bodies. Flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, Nor shall corruption inherit incorruption.

Agreed, that is how it should be. But, are people really dead to self, if they still want to keep rejecting The Law?

If The Commandments are really written in their heart and mind then it won't seem like something grievous to them to keep The Law. But, it does seem grievous to people who are still full of self, instead of being dead to self.

1 John
5:1 Whosoever believeth that the Christ was in Jesus is born of God: and every one that loveth Him that incarnates loveth him also that is incarnated by Him.
5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and KEEP His Commandments.
5:3 For THIS is the love of God, that we KEEP His Commandments: and His Commandments are not grievous.
King of kings' Bible

 

[Douglas Summers]

No, Christ did not 'do away with it'. The churches however have helped to deceive christians everywhere into believing what you just said.

Yes He did.....Read it! (Heb. 8:6-13)

 

[bible_student]

Yes He did.....Read it! (Heb. 8:6-13)

No, He did not. Read it but then also read onwards, chapter 9 etc. (and then read Rev. 15:3 - from Christ Himself).

It's only talking about the ceremonial aspect of The Law in Hebrews, i.e. the priesthood, Temple service and animal sacrifice for the redemption of sin (Ceremonial Law) having been made obsolete, by Christ's Sacrifice on The Cross, once and for all.

Hebrews is NOT talking about the Moral Law at any point, because that part of The Law is ETERNAL throughout The Universe and it remains FOREVER, as Christ said.

The heaven and the earth are still there, are they not? Matt. 5:18

It's talking about the ceremonial aspects of The Law only in Hebrews... please read and see this for yourself.

Right and wrong will always be right and wrong and that never changes. So, no He did not do away with the Moral Law contained in the Old Covenant and ALL of the Moral Commandments therein therefore remain exactly the way they are written (without any change - not a jot or tittle changed) and they are still in effect today, along with the Statutes and the Judgments.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Agreed, that is how it should be. But, are people really dead to self, if they still want to keep rejecting The Law?

You must be born again, Just you saying it does not make you born again. You must be born again. It is the PERMANENT indwelling of the Holy Spirit....We do not reject the Law! We let the Law do what it was intended to do, and that is to condemn us when we ( by the weakness of the flesh) sin, and in turn, sends us to Christ...That is the whole of the new covenant...You must be born again!

 

[bible_student]

You quoted all that...mostly from the OT when Christ did away with the Old Covenant

We do not reject the Law! We let the Law do what it was intended to do, and that is to condemn us when we ( by the weakness of the flesh) sin

So, which is it? Did Christ do away with it, or do you let The Law condemn you when you sin? (therefore, not done away)
It can't possibly be both... so, which one is it?
Done away or not done away?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You must be born again, Just you saying it does not make you born again. You must be born again. It is the PERMANENT indwelling of the Holy Spirit....We do not reject the Law! We let the Law do what it was intended to do, and that is to condemn us when we ( by the weakness of the flesh) sin, and in turn, sends us to Christ...That is the whole of the new covenant...You must be born again!

^ This should be re-read by people till they get it. Christians honour God's law BECAUSE they love Him and they are saved!!!! Trying to do what is right without first being born-again is the "way that seems right to a man" but leads to spiritual death because man is imperfect.

The problem with the above is that UNLESS you are a true Christian, nothing said on this topic will connect with an experience you can relate to.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Hebrews is NOT talking about the Moral Law at any point, because that part of The Law is ETERNAL throughout The Universe and it remains FOREVER, as Christ said.

Law and Grace do not mix. They are contrary to each other. It is not Law plus Christ...It is Christ alone.

 

[Karlysymon]

@Karlysymon

Same with Satan’s existence. He could have been destroyed but God permitted him to live on, now someone could argue that since he wasn’t destroyed, its evidence for universal reconciliation...​

​

You have baffled me on this one... I'm not contesting the thought, I'm just not sure where you're coming from. Wouldest thou elaborate?

It was just an example used to strengthen my point. Someone out there, who believes in UR might, in trying to understand the question of evil and Satan's continued existence, conclude that in not blotting him out of existence its proof of UR. That in the end, Satan will be in the throng of the Redeemed, as Lucifer i suppose (since he'll no longer be an Adversary).

 

[Douglas Summers]

So, which is it? Did Christ do away with it, or do you let The Law condemn you when you sin? (therefore, not done away)
It can't possibly be both... so, which one is it?
Done away or not done away?

It is Spiritual...You are dealing in carnal knowledge. If you were born again, You would understand.

 

[Beloved]

The Messiah taught obedience to God’s law, aka the Law of Moses.

 

[bible_student]

We do not reject the Law! We let the Law do what it was intended to do, and that is to condemn us when we ( by the weakness of the flesh) sin, and in turn, sends us to Christ

So, it is not done away then? Because, if it was done away, then why would anyone still be paying any attention to it and using The Law by allowing it to do what it was intended to do?

It can't be both, that would be cognitive dissonance (trying to hold two contradictory thoughts at the same time).

 

[bible_student]

Law and Grace do not mix. They are contrary to each other. It is not Law plus Christ...It is Christ alone.

That's not what Christ said in Revelation 15:3.

(How can they be contrary to each other when Christ is The Lawgiver? For proof, please read: Numbers 21:4-6, John 5:22, 23, 1 Corinthians 10:4-9, Hebrews 3:1-6, 3:14-17, 11:24-26, 13:8)

 

[bible_student]

The Messiah taught obedience to God’s law, aka the Law of Moses.

Amen. As did the Apostles, too.