Salvation comes from the Jew (John 4:22)

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#61
@Douglas Summers
Okay. I just wanted to understand the whole thing because the verse (in the post i quoted) is most often used to drum up or encourage support for the state of Israel. And i wanted its use defended in light of Galatians 3:6.
 





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#62
Okay. I just wanted to understand the whole thing because the verse (in the post i quoted) is most often used to drum up or encourage support for the state of Israel. And i wanted its use defended in light of Galatians 3:6.
This has nothing to do with the state of Israel, It is about faith, in type, Like Abraham, who is the father of Faith. Abraham was the first one to have faith in God as to His promise. You need read all of Chapter 3 to understand. And my first post to you applies also.
 





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#63
The word Gentiles existed before Abraham(goy & goyim ). Abraham was in fact a goy when he was called out. And God promised him that he would be the father to many goyim. It was simply used as a word to refer to the different nations, one of which Abraham came from, thus making him a goy, meaning one from the goyim.
The word foreigner did exist before Abraham and that is the context it was used in regards to Abraham (as in he was a foreigner in certain lands Genesis 23:4 for example). God even says to Abraham that the Israelites would be foreigners in another land. If this is what is meant by calling Abraham a gentile then I guess you have a point. But by using “gentile” which in modern terms means foreigner of Israel instead of the word “foreigner” it gives off a different connotation. Even though Abraham was a foreigner in certain instances and Israel as well, I’d be hard pressed to believe that Israelites in the Bible would say they descend from gentiles or they were once gentiles Because of the modern usage of the word. Just sounds like a way of inserting the “replacement theology” into genesis

Goyim by the way is the word for nation.
Acts 15:13:-14


The distinguishing of Israelites and Gentiles didn’t come about until the Israelites had formed as a nation and God set them apart.
I disagree. It’s clear (IMO of course) that God set the lineage of Shem apart from the other sons of Noah. And from Shem, Eber, then Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So before Israel even came on the scene, God (that is, if the Bible is to believed) set a lineage apart from the gentiles or who would later be called the gentiles to be the people He chose to accomplish His purpose .
 





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#64
The word foreigner did exist before Abraham and that is the context it was used in regards to Abraham (as in he was a foreigner in certain lands Genesis 23:4 for example). God even says to Abraham that the Israelites would be foreigners in another land. If this is what is meant by calling Abraham a gentile then I guess you have a point. But by using “gentile” which in modern terms means foreigner of Israel instead of the word “foreigner” it gives off a different connotation. Even though Abraham was a foreigner in certain instances and Israel as well, I’d be hard pressed to believe that Israelites in the Bible would say they descend from gentiles or they were once gentiles Because of the modern usage of the word. Just sounds like a way of inserting the “replacement theology” into genesis

Goyim by the way is the word for nation.


I disagree. It’s clear (IMO of course) that God set the lineage of Shem apart from the other sons of Noah. And from Shem, Eber, then Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So before Israel even came on the scene, God (that is, if the Bible is to believed) set a lineage apart from the gentiles or who would later be called the gentiles to be the people He chose to accomplish His purpose .
In Genesis 10:32 says regarding the lineages of Noah’s sons, including Shem:

Genesis 10:32
These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their goyim: and by these were the nations(goyim) divided in the earth after the flood.
As we can see, Moses grouped Shem and his descendants in with the other goyim, and classified all of Noah’s sons and their descendants as goyim/gentiles, which included Abraham.

The term goyim began to be used to refer to non-Israelites after the nation had been formed. Prior to, it referred to all humans.

What the Israelites *think* doesn’t matter, it’s what the Torah says that matters. The Torah says God went to the goyim/gentiles to call out a goy, Abraham, and to set a people apart from his descendants. The Israelites do descend from goyim, and our father Abraham was a goy, not an Israelite or Yahudi. He was of the nation of people called the Hebrews, or Abarim, but until God called him and chose him, he was a goy. He became the Father of many goyim through his faith in God.

If an Israelite truly goes by the what the Torah says, they would acknowledge that our father Abraham was indeed a goy before God chose him and he walked with God.
 





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#65
This has nothing to do with the state of Israel, It is about faith, in type, Like Abraham, who is the father of Faith. Abraham was the first one to have faith in God as to His promise. You need read all of Chapter 3 to understand. And my first post to you applies also.
so should i financially "bless" the state of Israel as Gen 12:3 states?
 





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#66
In Genesis 10:32 says regarding the lineages of Noah’s sons, including Shem:


Genesis 10:32


As we can see, Moses grouped Shem and his descendants in with the other goyim, and classified all of Noah’s sons and their descendants as goyim/gentiles, which included Abraham.
This is saying what I said. That goyim means nation, not specifically foreigners outside of Israel.

The term goyim began to be used to refer to non-Israelites after the nation had been formed

Prior to, it referred to all humans.
No, goyim means nation. Thats why God said to Abraham that He would make Abraham "into a great nation (goy)" in Genesis 12:2. He also said that Israel would be a "holy nation (goy)" to Him in Exodus 19:6. The word you should be translating to "Gentile" if any is ger not goyim.

What the Israelites *think* doesn’t matter, it’s what the Torah says that matters. The Torah says God went to the goyim/gentiles to call out a goy, Abraham, and to set a people apart from his descendants
What chapter/verse in the Torah says that?

. The Israelites do descend from goyim, and our father Abraham was a goy, not an Israelite or Yahudi. He was of the nation of people called the Hebrews, or Abarim, but until God called him and chose him, he was a goy. He became the Father of many goyim through his faith in God.

If an Israelite truly goes by the what the Torah says, they would acknowledge that our father Abraham was indeed a goy before God chose him and he walked with God.
The problem, imo, is you keep conflating goyim with gentile. Thats not how the word was translated as goyim refers to nation which can be any nation whether Israelite, or non-Israelite. Ger would be a better translation for Gentile, but even that isnt 1-1 as the Israelites were "gers" in Egypt (Exodus 22:21). If we're going to blanketly refer to Abraham as a gentile because at one time or another he was a foreigner in another country/nation, then we should also be calling the Israelites, Gentiles, because the same applies to them. And even worse, they were foreigners for a much longer period of time than Abraham. This is the problem with trying to retro fit "Gentile" and what Goyim supposedly means today, to back then.
 





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#67
goyim means nation. Thats why God said to Abraham that He would make Abraham "into a great nation (goy)" in Genesis 12:2. He also said that Israel would be a "holy nation (goy)" to Him in Exodus 19:6. The word you should be translating to "Gentile" if any is ger not goyim.
Goyim is a plural word - when it’s used, it usually means nations, plural. The singular form can also be used to refer to a person that comes from the nations.. For example, I am a goy. I come from the nations(goyim), thus I am a goy. Goy and goyim are not 1 dimensional words that only mean 1 thing

America is a goy/gentile, but a person can also be a goy/gentile. America and Canada are goyim, but a group of people from America and Canada are goyim.

Ger means stranger. For example:

Exodus 2:21-22
And Moses was content to dwell with the man: and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter.
And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom: for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land.
Ger and goy are not the same thing. They are different words and concepts. They’re not interchangeable, and it doesn’t fit when discussing this topic.
What chapter/verse in the Torah says that?
The chapter and verses that tell us of Abraham’s lineage and history and walk with God.

The problem, imo, is you keep conflating goyim with gentile. Thats not how the word was translated as goyim refers to nation which can be any nation whether Israelite, or non-Israelite. Ger would be a better translation for Gentile, but even that isnt 1-1 as the Israelites were "gers" in Egypt (Exodus 22:21). If we're going to blanketly refer to Abraham as a gentile because at one time or another he was a foreigner in another country/nation, then we should also be calling the Israelites, Gentiles, because the same applies to them. And even worse, they were foreigners for a much longer period of time than Abraham. This is the problem with trying to retro fit "Gentile" and what Goyim supposedly means today, to back then.
I’m calling Abraham a goy/gentile because he was a goy, and God called him out of the goyim. I’m not talking about Abraham sojourning and being in a stranger in different lands. I’m talking about Abraham’s origins.

Abraham is the *father* of his nation. It began with him, not his forefathers. His nation was new and chosen by God. God chose a goy, out of the goyim, to start His nation of called-out people - Israel.
 





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#68
so should i financially "bless" the state of Israel as Gen 12:3 states?
Gen
Gen. 12:3 Blessings come from the heart, and love of God in us that we love what He loves, We become one with Christ. It is not a question we ask (should we bless Israel) It is what we do. Read 1 Cor. 13:1-13) That is your answer, for Salvation comes from the Jew, The son of David the son of God. Rom.1:1-6
 





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#69
Goyim is a plural word - when it’s used, it usually means nations, plural. The singular form can also be used to refer to a person that comes from the nations.. For example, I am a goy. I come from the nations(goyim), thus I am a goy. Goy and goyim are not 1 dimensional words that only mean 1 thing

America is a goy/gentile, but a person can also be a goy/gentile. America and Canada are goyim, but a group of people from America and Canada are goyim.
Well thats what I said. You're trying to use the modern usage and apply to the past when in the past it simply meant nation. Even after Israel's existence, they were referred to as "goyim". Heres another reference to Israel as "goy"

2 Samuel 7:23
And who is like your people Israel--the one nation(goy) on earth that God went out to redeem as a people for himself, and to make a name for himself, and to perform great and awesome wonders by driving out nations(goyim) and their gods from before your people, whom you redeemed from Egypt?

Saying "goyim means gentiles" is going by how its used now, centuries after the bible was written. When the bible was written, goyim simply meant nations and could apply to Israel or any other nation. And words do change meaning over time (I believe brunette used to refer to skin color not hair), but that doesnt mean we go into the past and change the meaning. If today, I say "you are my friend" and tomorrow the word friend changes to meaning enemy, that doesnt mean you go into the past and say that I said "you are my enemy". You define the word in the context it meant in the day I said it. In the day that goy was written in the bible, it simply meant nation(s) not "gentiles".

Ger means stranger. For example:

Exodus 2:21-22
I agree with this but I did say this in my last post...

Ger and goy are not the same thing. They are different words and concepts. They’re not interchangeable, and it doesn’t fit when discussing this topic.
I didnt say goy and ger are the same thing. I said if you are going to translate any word to gentile in the modern sense of the word, it should be ger not goyim. Gentile is an outsider or "foreigner" of Israel and ger is the Hebrew word for foreigner. If you're going to say any usage in the bible of goy is gentile, then you might as well call Israel gentiles as well.

The chapter and verses that tell us of Abraham’s lineage and history and walk with God.
Nothing specific?

I’m calling Abraham a goy/gentile because he was a goy, and God called him out of the goyim. I’m not talking about Abraham sojourning and being in a stranger in different lands. I’m talking about Abraham’s origins.

Abraham is the *father* of his nation. It began with him, not his forefathers. His nation was new and chosen by God. God chose a goy, out of the goyim, to start His nation of called-out people - Israel.
Of course without me even having to say it, you are free to call Abraham anything. I just dont see the bible calling him that which is why I asked for the chapter/verse where the Torah calls him that..

To my recollection, the bible never says that God chose a nation out of nations to start a nation because thats what choosing a "goy out of the goyim to be his goyim would mean.
 





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#70
Well thats what I said. You're trying to use the modern usage and apply to the past when in the past it simply meant nation. Even after Israel's existence, they were referred to as "goyim". Heres another reference to Israel as "goy".

2 Samuel 7:23
And who is like your people Israel--the one nation(goy) on earth that God went out to redeem as a people for himself, and to make a name for himself, and to perform great and awesome wonders by driving out nations(goyim) and their gods from before your people, whom you redeemed from Egypt?
Where the Israelites ever called “goyim” after being formed as a nation?

When God tells Israel to not learn the way of the goyim, he’s referring to all other nations/peoples outside of Israel - in other words, the Gentiles.

God didn’t divide the nations up until after the flood - he saved Abraham & his descendants for himself and gave up the other goyim to the sons of God.

Once Israel was formed, “the goyim” became a term used to refer to people who were not Israelites - even in the Torah.

Israel is a goy, but they are distinguished from the Goyim. God himself even says “learn not the way of the Goyim”. God is referring to a specific group of people - non Israelites. When an Israelite reads “the goyim” in then Torah and the Prophets, particularly after Abraham was called out, we understand that it’s a term used to reference non-Israelites.

Saying "goyim means gentiles" is going by how its used now, centuries after the bible was written. When the bible was written, goyim simply meant nations and could apply to Israel or any other nation. And words do change meaning over time (I believe brunette used to refer to skin color not hair), but that doesnt mean we go into the past and change the meaning. If today, I say "you are my friend" and tomorrow the word friend changes to meaning enemy, that doesnt mean you go into the past and say that I said "you are my enemy". You define the word in the context it meant in the day I said it. In the day that goy was written in the bible, it simply meant nation(s) not "gentiles".
Where does Israel ever get referred to as Goyim?


Nothing specific?
Go back to the dividing of the nations and the story of Abraham


Of course without me even having to say it, you are free to call Abraham anything. I just dont see the bible calling him that which is why I asked for the chapter/verse where the Torah calls him that..

To my recollection, the bible never says that God chose a nation out of nations to start a nation because thats what choosing a "goy out of the goyim to be his goyim would mean.
The Torah tells us what happens - sometimes we have to put the pieces together. it doesn’t always put things in black and white.

We don’t live in a pre-Abraham, pre-Israel world anymore. “The Gentiles” refer to all people outside of the nation of Israel. This has been the case since Israel was set-apart.
 





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#71
Where the Israelites ever called “goyim” after being formed as a nation?
No disrespect but are you reading my posts? I already gave you two verses (Exodus 19:6, 2nd Samuel 7:23) as examples of God referring to Israel as "goy" or "goyim".

When God tells Israel to not learn the way of the goyim, he’s referring to all other nations/peoples outside of Israel - in other words, the Gentiles.

God didn’t divide the nations up until after the flood - he saved Abraham & his descendants for himself and gave up the other goyim to the sons of God.
Agreed.

Once Israel was formed, “the goyim” became a term used to refer to people who were not Israelites - even in the Torah.

Israel is a goy, but they are distinguished from the Goyim. God himself even says “learn not the way of the Goyim”. God is referring to a specific group of people - non Israelites. When an Israelite reads “the goyim” in then Torah and the Prophets, particularly after Abraham was called out, we understand that it’s a term used to reference non-Israelites.



Where does Israel ever get referred to as Goyim?
You couldnt have read the verses I posted (or Jeremiah 31:36 for another example where goy is used again in regards to Israel) and came back and repeated this. I do understand that today it has taken the connotation of meaning "Gentiles". Im saying that in the past, when the bible was written, it simply meant nation(s) which could refer to Israel or any other nation.


Go back to the dividing of the nations and the story of Abraham

The Torah tells us what happens - sometimes we have to put the pieces together. it doesn’t always put things in black and white.
Is there a reason why you're not referring me to the chapter/verse that says God called Abraham, a goy, out of the goyim, to be a goyim? That would make things easier than me simply saying "its not there"


We don’t live in a pre-Abraham, pre-Israel world anymore. “The Gentiles” refer to all people outside of the nation of Israel. This has been the case since Israel was set-apart.
Yes Gentiles can refer to what you say it does. My point is “goy/goyim” refers to nation (biblically speaking) whether that nation is Israel or a foreign nation and I think I've supported that stance where I've posted multiple verses that show this...
 





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#74
Trump managed to engineer it so he was seventy years, seven months and seven days old on his first full day in office - what are the odds?http://www.alamongordo.com/777-number-donald-trump/ Just goes to show the lengths the elites will go to in order to make the numbers fit ;-)
Personally not a big believer in the numbers game, but I know that they are. It's coincidence. It requires the caveat first FULL day in office to even be relevent. But he became President on Jan. 20th. Plus, he woulda been that old on that day had he not won the election. It's a stretch...
 





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#75
Personally not a big believer in the numbers game, but I know that they are. It's coincidence. It requires the caveat first FULL day in opffice to even be relevent. But he became President on Jan. 20th. Plus, he woulda been that old on that day had he not won the election. It's a stretch...
Just messing with you ;-)

Truthfully, as you look at prophecy it becomes much more clear in the rear view mirror imo.

E.g.

8857b3940ab68faf4af6946046c08c1f.jpg

Btw -

STILL the best prophetic outline I have watched to date - who would have guessed the overview of future history was hidden in plain view in the first books of the Bible? Impossible? Worth a watch...


P.s. don't be misled by the cover image on the clip - no dates are set whatsoever. This is big picture stuff...
 





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#76
Trump managed to engineer it so he was seventy years, seven months and seven days old on his first full day in office - what are the odds?

http://www.alamongordo.com/777-number-donald-trump/

Just goes to show the lengths the elites will go to in order to make the numbers fit ;-)
Not saying that is what happened in Trump's case but don't you believe that it happens in occult circles? That births are planned to coincide with auspicious dates...halloween, Beltane etc? Hitler's birthday is always cited in cases like these (April 20th). So, since the occult elite make plans that span generations, Trump isn't exactly being let off the hook here since, as it seems, he and his presidency and all things to do with the 3rd temple are intertwined.

@UnderAlienControl
I wish you'd posted it in the Prophetic Expectations thread. :)
 





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#77
Not saying that is what happened in Trump's case but don't you believe that it happens in occult circles? That births are planned to coincide with auspicious dates...halloween, Beltane etc? Hitler's birthday is always cited in cases like these (April 20th). So, since the occult elite make plans that span generations, Trump isn't exactly being let off the hook here since, as it seems, he and his presidency and all things to do with the 3rd temple are intertwined.

@UnderAlienControl
I wish you'd posted it in the Prophetic Expectations thread. :)
Ye shall know them by their fruits...

Based on Mr Trumps track record, I am currently here:-

85a07e44d65619bb552e542f24aad06e.jpg