Salvation/Born Again

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#1
What do these terms mean? Are they interchangeable? How does the kingdom of heaven/God and Hell tie in? What happens when I confess Christ? First and second death vs first and second birth?

I know I know but do I know? So with that in mind let's share what we know or what we think we know. Scripture only(unless you know history), I hate inference and assumption.
 





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#2
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Being Born again according to Jesus is being born in the spiritual realm. It has nothing to do with our physcial bodies or our fleshly carnal minds. Because of sin our spirits are "dead". When we come to a place of belief and faith in Jesus' work on the cross our spirits are made alive. Our flesh and our carnal mind is not changed when we are born again. Only our spirit is revived and "born again".

God foretold of this in Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh

If we believe the words of Paul on this subject our spirit is actually made alive in Christ and it is the spirit of Christ himself that begins to dwell in us when we are born again. Once this happens we engage in a battle between the sprit and the flesh (or our carnal mind, that is at emnity with God)

Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Can one be born again but still live according to the flesh? Can you have the Spirit of Christ inside of you and still sin? That is the question that will forever be argued and debated. It's a question that is difficult for those who claim works are not relevant for salvation.

When we are born again, God looks at us and sees his Son in us. We oursleves become the sons of God.

John 3:3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

According to John not too many people are truly Born again, because there are not too many people who do not commit sin. Did John really expect that we could live sinless after being Born Again? Notice that at the end of this passage John equates this idea of righteousness with the message of that we should love one another. Jesus himself summed up the law as "Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself" So the easiest way to define sin is through love. If anything is done out of a spirit other than love, it is sin.

1 John 1
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So obviously there is a dynamic here. When we are born again we have access to the ability to walk in the spirit of Christ. If we walk in his light we will not sin. But when we do sin, we confess those sins and he cleanses us form it. Cleansing is more than just forgiveness. When God cleanses he expects us to not sin again. But if we do we have an advocate.

1 John 2:1
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

So John's expectation is that we do not sin. However IF (notice he did not say when) we do sin, Jesus is our advocate before God.

Phillipians 2:12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Clearly Paul saw salvation as a process. The goal as a born again Christian should be to never sin. However it is not something that happens instantaneously when we are born again.

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it

Only by denying the flesh (or carnal mind) and allowing the Spirit of Christ to reign in us, can we ever approach the goal of living without sin. The process of denying the flesh and walking in the Spirit is the process of Salvation.
 





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#3
I love your new avi. You have to be born again to obtain salvation. We know this from Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus. We’re all born of the water(womb, though some people take this as baptism being necessary for salvation) Salvation is a spiritual deliverance secondary to a spiritual transformation.
 





Alanantic

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#4
Why do Christians (only!) think they need to be saved from something????? I'm fine just the way I am; faults and all!
 





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#5
Why do Christians (only!) think they need to be saved from something????? I'm fine just the way I am; faults and all!
This isn't really the thread for you. It's an introspective look into biblical terminology for being born again and salvation. You'll get the answer to your question at some point in this thread whether you believe the outcome or not.

Sit back and learn something.

@Violette me?

@Todd Thanks. That's where my line of thinking/teaching was. It brings home the spiritual circumcision in

Colossians 2:11-15 KJV
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. [13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
 





Alanantic

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#10
Salvation/Born Again: "What do these terms mean? Are they interchangeable?" Your words, Damien. I'm just wondering the same thing. Maybe we can both learn something.
 





X-Maverick

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#11
Why do Christians (only!) think they need to be saved from something????? I'm fine just the way I am; faults and all!
You must be confused about what Salvation saves you from. That is really the fault of Christians who say "God saves us from sin" or other such variation of the statement. It is not sin we need saving from. It's Death.

God saves us from death through His Son Jesus. No one on this planet can prevent you from dying, only He can. Immortality, that is something the vast majority of humanity would want. We want to live. Christ allows that. It's really as simple as that.

As for your faults, God accepts everyone with their faults. I'm flawed just like you.
 





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X-Maverick

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#12
This isn't really the thread for you. It's an introspective look into biblical terminology for being born again and salvation. You'll get the answer to your question at some point in this thread whether you believe the outcome or not.

Sit back and learn something.

@Violette me?

@Todd Thanks. That's where my line of thinking/teaching was. It brings home the spiritual circumcision in

Colossians 2:11-15 KJV
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. [13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Actually, this is the perfect thread for people like him. Don't make anyone wait to have an opportunity to hear the pure Gospel. Pure, as in not touched by the corruption that is works salvation or other such conditions.
 





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#13
That is really the fault of Christians who say "God saves us from sin" or other such variation of the statement. It is not sin we need saving from. It's Death.

God saves us from death through His Son Jesus.
Have to disagree. Death is simply the result of sin. Sin is the root and what needs to be addressed. Death is just a symptom.

We are saved from the power of sin, not death. If that is the case then none of us are saved because we are all going to die. What’s the point of being born again, if not so that the power of God can free us from the power of sin?
 





X-Maverick

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#14
Have to disagree. Death is simply the result of sin. Sin is the root and what needs to be addressed. Death is just a symptom.

We are saved from the power of sin, not death. If that is the case then none of us are saved because we are all going to die. What’s the point of being born again, if not so that the power of God can free us from the power of sin?
That is just pure nonsense. Sin brings death, but death is what we are being saved from; hence the resurrection. Agree, disagree, whatever. The fact of the matter is salvation from DEATH is what is mentioned in scripture. That was the entire point of the resurrection of Lazarus and the resurrection of the dead Jesus performed in general. His own resurrection had everything to do with salvation from such a fate. To reduce death as merely a symptom is disingenuous and very misguided. Did Jesus or the Apostles ever say salvation saves us from sin? No, but the Bible has said it only one time.

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

But many have made entire doctrines out of this one line. Nowhere in the Bible is it implied that salvation is a process. Salvation and being born again are part of the same package.

By saying salvation saves us from sin, you're putting a spotlight on the works of others, whether you meant to or not. Your doctrine is confusing and not at all stable when compared with scripture.
 





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cfowen

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#16
No where in the Bible does it equate being born again as salvation for Gentiles. In Jn 3, a Jew was told that he must be born again to enter the promised Jewish Kingdom. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and he never said anything about being born again, and Paul said in Acts 20:26-27, that he had not shunned from givng the entire counsel of God. If Paul didn't tell us that we must be born again to be saved, then being born again isn't for us Gentiles. For our salvation, we have 1Cor 15:1-4, which doesn't mention being born again. Even in Jn 3, it doesn't say anything about Nicodemus' salvation being based of being born again. It just says that it was required if he wanted to enter Israel's Kingdom. Born again is a perfect example of the myths that denominational preachers feed to the sheep.
 





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#17
No where in the Bible does it equate being born again as salvation for Gentiles. In Jn 3, a Jew was told that he must be born again to enter the promised Jewish Kingdom. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and he never said anything about being born again, and Paul said in Acts 20:26-27, that he had not shunned from givng the entire counsel of God. If Paul didn't tell us that we must be born again to be saved, then being born again isn't for us Gentiles. For our salvation, we have 1Cor 15:1-4, which doesn't mention being born again. Even in Jn 3, it doesn't say anything about Nicodemus' salvation being based of being born again. It just says that it was required if he wanted to enter Israel's Kingdom. Born again is a perfect example of the myths that denominational preachers feed to the sheep.
I respond to you lately because you write some of the most unusual, controversial and provocative stuff on this board. Given the nature and content of this place, that is saying something.


Allow me to ask: if to be "born again" was something meant only for Jews, and then only to enter a Jewish kingdom, how and why is it that so many non-Jews, including, thank God, my father (before I was born), are born again and it completely changes their being and their lives? Do you attribute the phenomenon of being born again to the mythology of denominational preachers? If so, my dad reports that he wasn't raised in any church and neither was he born again within one, although he did have contact with some older women from a nearby (Protestant, evangelical) church who were concerned about and prayed for -and ultimately with- him.
 





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#18
I have to concur with your observations @Serveto - the experience of being "born again" either on with the power of the Damascus road experience of Paul or alone in the quiet study of C.S Lewis has been a common thread through the centuries for repentant Jew and Gentile alike.

I don't find any case for a special, complicated type of salvation that wouldn't work for the thief of the cross, John Newton (writer of Amazing Grace) or for me.
 





cfowen

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#19
I try to obey my only apostle, Paul, and rightly divide the Word of God, in order to be approved unto God. As my apostle, Paul's word is the last word and his last 7 books are the last, last word. If something in his 1st 7 books is not repeated in his last 7 books, it's not for Gentiles today. The same with the OT, the Gospels, and all the other books. If it's not in Paul's last 7 books, it may be written FOR my edification, learning, and reproof, but it"s NOT written directly TO me. My name's not on the envelope. That's what right division is all about.

That's the only thing that sets me apart from most Christians. If something is for or is given to Jews, I don't believe it's specifically for me to obey unless Paul repeats it in his last 7 books. The only people I know of that rightly divide are dispensationalists. Therefore, they are the only ones approved unto God, according to 2Tim 2:15. I think that those who don't rightly divide, which is about 95% of Christianity, are leaving about 1/3 to 1/2 of Bible truth on the table. It's that big of a deal.

The verse about right division appears in Paul's last 7 books and also does Phil 1:10, where, approve things that are excellent actually means test, or try, the things that are different. Paul's last 7 books are based on a mystery that no part of was ever revealed anywhere in scripture, until Paul wrote it. EVERYTHING in these 7 books is brand spanking new and there are many things there that will contradict other scripture, including Paul's Acts books.The biggest difference is that we who SEE this Mystery and claim, will spend in Heaven. No one in the other 59 books of the Bible was ever promised a hope of Heaven! Therefore, the command to rightly divide and test the things that differ were needed because of the totally different doctrine in Pau's last books.These rules weren't needed before the end of Acts, because up to the end of Acts, EVERYTHING was Israel, including Acts, because, starting with Cornelius, every saved Gentile was grafted into Israel and was, thus, part of Israel. No purely Gentile church, like we have today, existed during Acts.

I've read a lot of complicated theories about what being born of water and Spirit means. To me, it simply means those are reborn due to water baptism and spirit baptism. In Ephesians, it says there is one baptism, and from other verses, that baptism is of the Spirit. Also, we are told in Colossians, that the ordinances are done away with. From all this, I feel assured that water baptism is not for us Gentiles today. For this and other reasons, such as knowing that the Kingdom in John 3 is earthly and belongs to Israel, being born again also belongs to Israel.

There are 100s of things taught in the denominational system that have no basis of Biblical truth. Some, like hell and the existence of a separate thing called a Soul, are totally bogus pagan traditions. Just about every Bible contain errors because the world "hell", in it's pagan meaning, is used to replace totally unrelated words: Gehenna, Sheol, Hades, Tartarus. Other things, like water baptism and the Great Commission and the rapture, solely belong to Israel and must be done away with in our thinking. The only way to do that is through right division, the only path to Bible truth.
 





cfowen

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#20
I have to concur with your observations @Serveto - the experience of being "born again" either on with the power of the Damascus road experience of Paul or alone in the quiet study of C.S Lewis has been a common thread through the centuries for repentant Jew and Gentile alike.

I don't find any case for a special, complicated type of salvation that wouldn't work for the thief of the cross, John Newton (writer of Amazing Grace) or for me.
The thief on the cross had no calling. Therefore, he will be resurrected at the white throne judgement and will be on the New Earth, where Paradise will be. In Lk 23:43, Christ said , "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise." Note that I changed the comma from before Today to after Today, where it is in a few of the more accurate bibles. The phrase, "I say unto you today" is a very common idiom that we still use today. There are 42 examples of this idiom in Deuteronomy. If anyone thinks that Christ died, then immediately went to paradise, which is in the 3rd heaven according to 2Cor 12, just to see this guy, and then return to earth, I have this bridge for sale. Besides, that verse gives false hope to those that think one goes immediately to heaven when they die. The truth is that only those who see, believe, and claim the calling and the hope of the calling in Paul's last 7 epistles will ever get to see heaven. Except for in those 7 books, no one has every received a calling of Heaven. Search and see. The mansions that Christ promised the 12 in Jn 14:2 will be in the New Jerusalem, which isn't Heaven.