Rightly dividing the Bible

[Claire Rousseau]

I’m the one here who reads the NIV. You know I love the NIV, you know how much I hate KJVO too. Give it up already please lol.

Ok, great. But I do NOT know you.
Read whatever you want.
Btw, my name is CLAIRE, NOT “jess”

 

[Damien50]

@Thunderian to remain on topic, do you consider methods like dispensationalism to be valid methods in dividing the word of God?

 

[Todd]

After all, the very authority of St. Paul is not derived solely in his preaching or his interpretation of the Law and the Prophets but in that he was ordained by the Apostles of Christ; 'entrusted' with the Tradition of Christ, and was thus given power to ordain St. Timothy and instruct him in what he had himself 'received'.

Uhm, no Paul wasn't ordained by the Apostles of Christ. In fact it was quite the opposite. Paul had little respect for the authority of the 12 Apostles and did not care to learn anything about Jesus in the Flesh from them.

The only thing that comes close to an endorsement of Paul from the Apostles is the following in Acts 15
"
24Inasmuch as we have heard that some went out from us, to whom we had given no instructions,c and troubled you by words, upsetting your minds, 25it seemed good to us, having come with one accord, having chosen men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26men having handed over their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, and they are telling you the same things by word of mouth.
28For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us, to lay upon you no further burden, except these necessary things: 29to abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. Keeping yourselves from these, you will do well.
Farewell.”

No mention of Paul being ordained as an Apostle. If anything this should cause question and concern as the Apostles felt it necessary to send Judas and Silas with Paul, to testify of the Apostles decision. If Paul were truly an Apsotle in the sight of the twelve, they would have no need to send Judas and Silas as their representatives.

The apparent contradiction here is that even if the Bible was written by the hand of heretics or whether it fell from the 'Throne of Allah', there is an inherent need for an authority to verify its truthfulness. Otherwise, accepting an 'inherent authority' of the Bible is no more logical than accepting the Book of Mormon as from God.

Agreed, which is why Paul should at least be questioned. He derived his authority from a vision and nothing else. He fails the majority of tests of true authority given in God's word. In fact his very own defense that he is an Apostle is contradictory to the Word of God. "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds". God gave very specific warning against signs and wonders being a basis for authority. Duet 13, Mathew 24:24. I am not saying that Paul's signs and wonders were not from God. I'm simply saying he was in error to use his signs and wonders as evidence of his authority.

 

[Thunderian]

@Thunderian to remain on topic, do you consider methods like dispensationalism to be valid methods in dividing the word of God?

Yes. There are different dispensations of the gospel and mechanisms for salvation at different times in human history.

Got Questions has a great breakdown of the dispensations, so I'll just link to them. May God bless the good folks at Got Questions, btw.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Yes. There are different dispensations of the gospel and mechanisms for salvation at different times in human history.

Got Questions has a great breakdown of the dispensations, so I'll just link to them. May God bless the good folks at Got Questions, btw.

No, Thundy, ANYONE who has EVER been saved in the Bible got saved the same way....grace through faith.

 

[Thunderian]

No, Thundy, ANYONE who has EVER been saved in the Bible got saved the same way....grace through faith.

The question "what must I do to be saved?" has not always had the same answer.

Adam and Eve were saved by not eating of the tree. Israel was saved by keeping God's commandments, including sacrifices. We are saved by believing in Jesus Christ. We are all saved by God's grace, but in each age believers have different commandments and responsibilities.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

The question "what must I do to be saved?" has not always had the same answer.

Adam and Eve were saved by not eating of the tree. Israel was saved by keeping God's commandments, including sacrifices. We are saved by believing in Jesus Christ. We are all saved by God's grace, but in each age believers have different commandments and responsibilities.

It’s ALWAYS been by faith.
That’s why the Bible said Abraham BELIEVED God and his faith was counted as righteousness.

Jesus Christ IS the Word of God made flesh. He was first introduced in Genesis 1.
He just wasn’t made flesh yet.

God does not change.

Dispensationalism was dreamt up by theologians.

There is no biblical support for it.

Just because some folks were on one side of the Cross and we are on the other doesn’t mean salvation changed.

NO MAN is saved by works...only FAITH.

 

[Thunderian]

It’s ALWAYS been by faith.
That’s why the Bible said Abraham BELIEVED God and his faith was counted as righteousness.

Jesus Christ IS the Word of God made flesh. He was first introduced in Genesis 1.
He just wasn’t made flesh yet.

God does not change.

Dispensationalism was dreamt up by theologians.

There is no biblical support for it.

Just because some folks were on one side of the Cross and we are on the other doesn’t mean salvation changed.

NO MAN is saved by works...only FAITH.

If there is no difference between the dispensations, why wasn't King David sealed with the holy spirit? How will people be saved when Jesus Christ is on his throne right in front of them? By faith?

During this dispensation, the Church Age, we are saved eternally no matter what, but in other ages the Bible tells us about works being tied to salvation. I'm not sure how you can claim that dispensations are imaginary when they are right there in the Bible.

 

[Todd]

If there is no difference between the dispensations, why wasn't King David sealed with the holy spirit? How will people be saved when Jesus Christ is on his throne right in front of them? By faith?

During this dispensation, the Church Age, we are saved eternally no matter what, but in other ages the Bible tells us about works being tied to salvation. I'm not sure how you can claim that dispensations are imaginary when they are right there in the Bible.

You disagree with Paul? Romans 4, Paul said Abraham was not justified by works but by faith.

 

[Thunderian]

You disagree with Paul? Romans 4, Paul said Abraham was not justified by works but by faith.

Can you give reasonable answers to the questions I asked?

 

[Todd]

Can you give reasonable answers to the questions I asked?

Sure,

I don't believe in dispensationalism. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. There is only one covenant, it is only man's understanding of the covenant that has changed.

I believe everyone is reconciled to God the same thoughout all history. By faith in God that leads to repentance and observance of God's command. Faith and works born out of faith are neccesary for all men. Sin has seperated man from God and it is only by the blood of Jesus that man can be reconciled with God. Though Jesus had not yet come, the OT saints were dependent on the future promise of Christ to have fellowship with God. The promise of Jesus was first mentioned by God right after Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden. God is outside of time, so though Jesus hadn't yet lived, died and rose from the dead, the OT saints were still forgiven and reconciled through the power of the cross.

David and Abraham's sins were forgiven by the blood of Christ. Abraham and David might not have understood all the details, but they had faith in the prophetic promise of the messiah. So Abraham and David were saved by faith in the future promise of Christ and that faith led to repentance and obedience. Did they make mistakes and sin? Of course, but David was called a man after God's own heart. Not because he was perfect, but because he had a contrite heart and was moved to turn to God in repentance when he sinned.

Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness. Yet God tested his faith and required Abraham to prove his faith by works. Because I believe in Salvation by faith and works, I continually am accused of believing I can earn my salvation. Obedience (works) does not earn me salvation. Obedience is evidence of my faith. If you believe God and love God, you will obey.

When we are born again, our spirit is united with God, but our soul and flesh is still in need of sanctification and salvation from the power of sin. That is the process of salvation and without obedience to God, we miss the opportunity to progress in the process of sanctification.

You can't earn salvation by works, but works are a tool that God uses to sancfify and purify our soul and flesh. Works is necessary for the process of salvation. If salvation was a one time event/gift, like so many on this forum believe why did Paul say work out your salvation. It's right there....Paul even uses the word "work" in relationship to our salvation.

As for your specific questions....
Faith will still be necessary when Christ is on the throne.
Why do you think David did not have the Holy Spirit?
1 Sam 16:
12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the Lord said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.
13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

 

[elsbet]

Sure,

I don't believe in dispensationalism. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. There is only one covenant, it is only man's understanding of the covenant that has changed.

I believe everyone is reconciled to God the same thoughout all history. By faith in God that leads to repentance and observance of God's command. Faith and works born out of faith are neccesary for all men. Sin has seperated man from God and it is only by the blood of Jesus that man can be reconciled with God. Though Jesus had not yet come, the OT saints were dependent on the future promise of Christ to have fellowship with God. The promise of Jesus was first mentioned by God right after Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden. God is outside of time, so though Jesus hadn't yet lived, died and rose from the dead, the OT saints were still forgiven and reconciled through the power of the cross.

David and Abraham's sins were forgiven by the blood of Christ. Abraham and David might not have understood all the details, but they had faith in the prophetic promise of the messiah. So Abraham and David were saved by faith in the future promise of Christ and that faith led to repentance and obedience. Did they make mistakes and sin? Of course, but David was called a man after God's own heart. Not because he was perfect, but because he had a contrite heart and was moved to turn to God in repentance when he sinned.

Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness. Yet God tested his faith and required Abraham to prove his faith by works. Because I believe in Salvation by faith and works, I continually am accused of believing I can earn my salvation. Obedience (works) does not earn me salvation. Obedience is evidence of my faith. If you believe God and love God, you will obey.

When we are born again, our spirit is united with God, but our soul and flesh is still in need of sanctification and salvation from the power of sin. That is the process of salvation and without obedience to God, we miss the opportunity to progress in the process of sanctification.

You can't earn salvation by works, but works are a tool that God uses to sancfify and purify our soul and flesh. Works is necessary for the process of salvation. If salvation was a one time event/gift, like so many on this forum believe why did Paul say work out your salvation. It's right there....Paul even uses the word "work" in relationship to our salvation.

As for your specific questions....
Faith will still be necessary when Christ is on the throne.
Why do you think David did not have the Holy Spirit?
1 Sam 16:
12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the Lord said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.
13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

Paul even uses the word "work" in relationship to our salvation.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


I just wanted to finish the thought there.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

If there is no difference between the dispensations, why wasn't King David sealed with the holy spirit? How will people be saved when Jesus Christ is on his throne right in front of them? By faith?

During this dispensation, the Church Age, we are saved eternally no matter what, but in other ages the Bible tells us about works being tied to salvation. I'm not sure how you can claim that dispensations are imaginary when they are right there in the Bible.

The Holy Spirit was upon men in the OT.


“Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.”....Psalms
51:11

^^Otherwise David wouldn’t have said this.

Dispensationalism is not a biblical doctrine.

Salvation has ALWAYS been by faith.

Those in the OT looked forward to the Cross & believed, we look back on it & believe.

It is all faith.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I think it is fair to say that the entire message of the Bible is that God wants us to listen to Him and act towards him in faith.

What would require an act of faith has differed through time. Hebrews 11 provides a great tour through history here.

http://biblehub.com/kjv/hebrews/11.htm

The actions that would demonstrate faith toward God have changed through history. E.g. God asked Noah to build an Ark!

I read quite an interesting article on what a "dispensation" might be...


What is 'the dispensation of the fullness of times' in Ephesians 1:10? (pt 1)
By Dr. Paul M. Elliott

"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Him. (Ephesians 1:7-10)

These verses describe the ultimate, glorious climax of God's eternal plan of redemption in Christ. In the "dispensation of the fullness of the times" God the Father will "gather together in one all things in Christ." What exactly does this mean?

As we read these words in context, we're confronted by some terms that require careful study:

• What does Paul under divine inspiration mean when he speaks of a "dispensation"?
• What does he mean by "the fullness of times"?
• What does it mean to "gather together in one"?
• What does he mean by "all things"?

We need to understand the terms Paul is using in order to understand "the mystery of His will" - God's ultimate purpose in the plan of redemption. Otherwise, we may miss the point and draw wrong conclusions.

It will be helpful for us to subdivide our reader's question into the four subsidiary questions above, answer each one, and then step back and look at the sum of them. Today we begin that process.

What is a Dispensation in this Context?

So we begin with the word "dispensation". Paul uses the Greek word that's translated "dispensation" twice in Ephesians. One of those is in the passage we're considering, in verse 10. We also find this word in Ephesians 3:2, where Paul speaks of the "dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery."

[Note: Some translations use Greek source texts that also have the same word in Ephesians 3:9 in the phrase that is translated "the fellowship of the mystery" in the KJV and NKJV. In other versions it is variously translated "dispensation" (ASV), "administration" (NASB and NIV), or "plan" (ESV). But the most reliable Greek manuscript (the Received Text which is used to translate the KJV and NKJV) has a different word in the Greek, koinonia, which in fact means "fellowship" and not "dispensation".]

The word translated "dispensation" in Ephesians 1:1 and 3:2 is the Greek word oikonomia, which literally means "house order". It's the word from which we get our English word "economy". A dispensation, simply put, is 1.) a plan, or 2.) the carrying out of a plan. How the word is used in the original Greek of the Scriptures - sense number one or sense number two - depends on the point of view. The first usage of dispensation (1:10) is sense number one, from the standpoint of someone who is in authority, someone who makes a plan, who establishes the way that something will operate. The second usage (3:2) is sense number two, from the standpoint of a person who is under authority, who is given the responsibility or stewardship of carrying out some part of the plan.

In chapter three, Paul is speaking from his perspective. He's saying that God has given him a share in the responsibility of carrying out His plan. Paul also uses oikonomia in the same sense in Colossians 1:25, where he says that God has made him a minister of the Gospel "according to the dispensation (KJV, "stewardship" in the NKJV) of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the Word of God."

But in Ephesians 1:10, Paul is clearly speaking of things not from his perspective as an appointed steward carrying out God's plan, but from God's perspective as the author of the eternal plan. So when Paul uses the word "dispensation" in the phrase "the dispensation of the fullness of times" he is talking about God's plan for the ages, established and settled "before the foundation of the world" (1:4), centered in Jesus Christ, and now approaching its culmination."

Source

 

[Thunderian]

“Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.”....Psalms
51:11

^^Otherwise David wouldn’t have said this.

Dispensationalism is not a biblical doctrine.

Then how could David have lost the spirit of God, but we can't?

 

[Damien50]

@Claire Rousseau I was under the impression that dispensationalism was more of a method to dividing the bible rather than a theology though I know some sects do take it to extremes.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Then how could David have lost the spirit of God, but we can't?

He can’t, just as we can’t.

It may feel like we’ve been forsaken when going through trials & tribulations, but He doesn’t leave us.

We can anger, grieve or even quench the Holy Spirit, but once you’re saved, you’re saved.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

@Claire Rousseau I was under the impression that dispensationalism was more of a method to dividing the bible rather than a theology though I know some sects do take it to extremes.

Dispensationalism is man made.

If Abraham was saved by his works, why did God count his faith as righteousness?

 

[hammertime]

Mark 3:28: Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him.

1 Samuel 16:13 So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon David.

 

[Thunderian]

He can’t, just as we can’t.

It may feel like we’ve been forsaken when going through trials & tribulations, but He doesn’t leave us.

We can anger, grieve or even quench the Holy Spirit, but once you’re saved, you’re saved.

Why would David pray that God would not take his holy spirit from David if God can't do that? Furthermore, how was God able to take his spirit from Saul?

Is there a place in the Old Testament where believers are guaranteed eternal security, as there is in the New Testament?