Revelation

TokiEl

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God specifically said in the Script that MedoPersia is the ram... so what are people saying ? MedoPersia is the bear !


When God says MedoPersia is the ram people say MedoPersia is the bear... does that make sense ?
 

Thunderian

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God specifically said in the Script that MedoPersia is the ram... so what are people saying ? MedoPersia is the bear !


When God says MedoPersia is the ram people say MedoPersia is the bear... does that make sense ?
I suppose you think Jesus Christ can't be the Lion of the tribe of Judah, because he's already the Lamb of God.

Two different prophecies. Two different symbols that refer to the same thing.
 

phipps

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Others who identified the Antichrist

Summary: The apostle Paul, Martin Luther, and other fathers of the faith have identified the Roman Catholic system as the Antichrist.

Daniel 7 identifies the Papacy as the Antichrist. Throughout history, others have also stated that papal Rome is the Antichrist.

The Apostle Paul said that the "mystery of iniquity" was already working in his day, and would grow to full revelation before the Second Coming of the Lord.

The great French reformer, John Calvin, identified the Antichrist:

"Daniel and Paul had predicted that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God...we affirm him to be the Pope…Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak."i

"I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy."ii

Martin Luther also identified the Antichrist from his studies of Paul's epistle to the Thessalonians, and the prophetic books of Daniel and Revelation. In 1520, Luther wrote this:

"I am practically cornered, and can hardly doubt any more, that the Pope is really the Antichrist... because everything so exactly corresponds to the way of his life, actions, words and commandments."iii

"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist."iv

"Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself."v

"We are not the first who interpret the Papacy as the kingdom of Antichrist...He (John Purvey in 1390 AD) rightly and truly pronounces the Pope "Antichrist" as he is...a witness indeed, foreordained by God to confirm our doctrine."vi

Calvin and Luther were not the only church leaders to identify the Antichrist. A host of reformers identified the Antichrist as the Papacy, such as Thomas Cranmer ("Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons"vii), John Knox ("Hitherto the pope has been antichrist"viii), John Wesley ("He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers"ix), John Wycliffe, John Huss, Jerome, and John Melanchthon.

The same papal power will reveal itself again in the closing stages of this earth's history, we need to be grounded in Scripture so that we are not swept away by the subtle workings of this power.

amazingdiscoveries.org
 

TokiEl

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I suppose you think Jesus Christ can't be the Lion of the tribe of Judah, because he's already the Lamb of God.

Two different prophecies. Two different symbols that refer to the same thing.
Jesus is said to be the lamb of God and the lion of the tribe of Judah.

But where is it said that MedoPersia is the bear ? It is specifically said to be the ram !

You are not only making things up when you call MedoPersia the bear... you are calling God a liar for He said MedoPersia is the ram.
 

TokiEl

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The Apostle Paul said that the "mystery of iniquity" was already working in his day, and would grow to full revelation before the Second Coming of the Lord.

The great French reformer, John Calvin, identified the Antichrist:

"Daniel and Paul had predicted that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God...we affirm him to be the Pope…Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak."i

"I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy."ii
I have said several times that the man of sin sitting in 2 Thessalonians 2 as if God in the temple of God is actually referring to the papacy and not someone who will sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. There is no need to watch and wait for a God pretender as the world already has one in the infallible Vicar of Christ.. who when alien tech was no longer restrained was revealed to all on TV.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Others who identified the Antichrist

Summary: The apostle Paul, Martin Luther, and other fathers of the faith have identified the Roman Catholic system as the Antichrist.

Daniel 7 identifies the Papacy as the Antichrist. Throughout history, others have also stated that papal Rome is the Antichrist.

The Apostle Paul said that the "mystery of iniquity" was already working in his day, and would grow to full revelation before the Second Coming of the Lord.

The great French reformer, John Calvin, identified the Antichrist:

"Daniel and Paul had predicted that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God...we affirm him to be the Pope…Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak."i

"I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy."ii

Martin Luther also identified the Antichrist from his studies of Paul's epistle to the Thessalonians, and the prophetic books of Daniel and Revelation. In 1520, Luther wrote this:

"I am practically cornered, and can hardly doubt any more, that the Pope is really the Antichrist... because everything so exactly corresponds to the way of his life, actions, words and commandments."iii

"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist."iv

"Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself."v

"We are not the first who interpret the Papacy as the kingdom of Antichrist...He (John Purvey in 1390 AD) rightly and truly pronounces the Pope "Antichrist" as he is...a witness indeed, foreordained by God to confirm our doctrine."vi

Calvin and Luther were not the only church leaders to identify the Antichrist. A host of reformers identified the Antichrist as the Papacy, such as Thomas Cranmer ("Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons"vii), John Knox ("Hitherto the pope has been antichrist"viii), John Wesley ("He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers"ix), John Wycliffe, John Huss, Jerome, and John Melanchthon.

The same papal power will reveal itself again in the closing stages of this earth's history, we need to be grounded in Scripture so that we are not swept away by the subtle workings of this power.

amazingdiscoveries.org
2 Thessalonians 2?

“7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:”

I think that through the centuries, many Antichrist candidates have been identified, from Nero to Obama. After the rapture, the one who confirms Daniel 9:27 will show for sure.
 

TokiEl

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2 Thessalonians 2?

“7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:”

I think that through the centuries, many Antichrist candidates have been identified, from Nero to Obama. After the rapture, the one who confirms Daniel 9:27 will show for sure.
I see you put on your rose coloured eisegesis glasses when you read this passage : - )
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I see you put on your rose coloured eisegesis glasses when you read this passage : - )
Lol - I see you put your welding mask on in return ;-) you know I’m joking, but it illustrates my reasons for not openly sharing my prophetic view - at present the Gospel is why we are here, regardless of the timing and manner of our exit.
 

TokiEl

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Lol - I see you put your welding mask on in return ;-) you know I’m joking, but it illustrates my reasons for not openly sharing my prophetic view - at present the Gospel is why we are here, regardless of the timing and manner of our exit.
Paul told the church in Thessaly that the coming of Jesus Christ with the gathering together to Him... would not take place before the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin.

First is the falling away from faith that is correct doctrine and the revealing of the man of sin who acts as God... and after that the Lord will come.

Jesus even wondered if He would find faith on the earth when He returned.


Furthermore Paul said that the mystery of lawlessness was at work but for now restrained until this restriction be taken away... and then the man of sin will be revealed. The mystery of lawlessness is not flesh and blood but spiritual or paranormal principalities powers and rulers of darkness as Paul said in Ephesians 6:12.

These beings were restrained in Paul's time but there would come a time when this restriction would be taken away... and that would also reveal the man of sin. Technology is no longer restrained that is alien/angel tech for these beings are no longer restrained... they are free to do whatever they want. And they are the reason behind modern technology like TV which revealed the man of sin to the world.... the infallible vicar of Christ sitting as if God in the temple of God and opposing God.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Paul told the church in Thessaly that the coming of Jesus Christ with the gathering together to Him... would not take place before the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin.

First is the falling away from faith that is correct doctrine and the revealing of the man of sin who acts as God... and after that the Lord will come.

Jesus even wondered if He would find faith on the earth when He returned.


Furthermore Paul said that the mystery of lawlessness was at work but for now restrained until this restriction be taken away... and then the man of sin will be revealed. The mystery of lawlessness is not flesh and blood but spiritual or paranormal principalities powers and rulers of darkness as Paul said in Ephesians 6:12.

These beings were restrained in Paul's time but there would come a time when this restriction would be taken away... and that would also reveal the man of sin. Technology is no longer restrained that is alien/angel tech for these beings are no longer restrained... they are free to do whatever they want. And they are the reason behind modern technology like TV which revealed the man of sin to the world.... the infallible vicar of Christ sitting as if God in the temple of God and opposing God.
The Falling Away ~ Andy Woods

The Day of the Lord will not come unless the "falling away" comes first, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:3. What is this falling away? Is it apostasy, a spiritual departure from the faith, or is it an actual physical rapture? In this book, Dr. Andy Woods gives 10 reasons to believe it is a physical rapture.

About the Author
Andrew Marshall Woods left his law practice in Southern California to go into ministry full-time in 1998. After obtaining his PhD in Bible Exposition from Dallas Theological Seminary, he was a Full-Professor of Bible and Theology at the College Biblical Studies in Houston, TX (2009-2016). He is currently the president of Chafer Theological Seminary and senior pastor of Sugar Land Bible Church. Andy has a busy speaking schedule on a variety of topics at Christian conferences worldwide and has several published works.

Just to say, I understand your perspective, and I’m aware that it is one of a number of possible interpretations I hold in mind. For me, found Andy Wood’s analysis quite persuasive.

 

Thunderian

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Jesus is said to be the lamb of God and the lion of the tribe of Judah.

But where is it said that MedoPersia is the bear ? It is specifically said to be the ram !

You are not only making things up when you call MedoPersia the bear... you are calling God a liar for He said MedoPersia is the ram.
If you read Daniel 7, you will learn he had a vision of four beasts. The first beast was a winged lion, the second beast was a bear with three ribs in it's mouth, the third was a four-winged, four-headed leopard, and the fourth was a beast with ten horns.

In this vision, Daniel sees Jesus Christ sitting on a throne, surrounded by persons or beings who are ministering to him, and he is judging from open books. Daniel is told that the three other beasts have already had their dominion taken away, but Jesus Christ destroys the fourth beast himself, and is then given everlasting dominion over everything and everyone.

Daniel doesn't understand what's going on, so he asks one of the persons standing near Jesus Christ's throne what the deal is. He is told that the four beasts are four kingdoms, but the fourth is different from the others, and will devour the earth and break it into pieces. Daniel is told that the ten horns are ten kings, but a little horn will rise out of them, and will make war and overcome the saints for a time and times and the dividing of time (there's the 1260 days/3.5 years again).

So what makes me say the winged lion is Babylon, the bear is Medo-Persia and the leopard is Greece?

Well, history does.

The symbol of Babylon is the winged lion. This is a picture of one of the gates of Babylon that's now in the Louvre. That's the first kingdom.



The kingdom that came after that was the Persian empire, followed by the Greek empire of Alexander the Great, followed by the Roman empire, out of which the Bible says the man of sin (the little horn) will arise.

The prophecy of Daniel 8 uses the symbols of the ram and the goat to mean Persia and Greece, but that doesn't mean that Persia and Greece can't be represented by other symbols elsewhere. The symbols in Daniel 8 aren't that important. They could just as easily be an apple, an orange, a pear, and a pineapple with ten stems. The big picture is that there will be four global empires, starting with the Babylonian, moving on the Persian, then the Greek, then the Roman.
 

TokiEl

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The Falling Away ~ Andy Woods

The Day of the Lord will not come unless the "falling away" comes first, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:3. What is this falling away? Is it apostasy, a spiritual departure from the faith, or is it an actual physical rapture? In this book, Dr. Andy Woods gives 10 reasons to believe it is a physical rapture.

About the Author
Andrew Marshall Woods left his law practice in Southern California to go into ministry full-time in 1998. After obtaining his PhD in Bible Exposition from Dallas Theological Seminary, he was a Full-Professor of Bible and Theology at the College Biblical Studies in Houston, TX (2009-2016). He is currently the president of Chafer Theological Seminary and senior pastor of Sugar Land Bible Church. Andy has a busy speaking schedule on a variety of topics at Christian conferences worldwide and has several published works.

Just to say, I understand your perspective, and I’m aware that it is one of a number of possible interpretations I hold in mind. For me, found Andy Wood’s analysis quite persuasive.

So this man Andy try to convince christians that Strong's G646 - apostasia actually means rapture ? But how is that not the same as saying black is white ? There even is a witness as to the meaning of this word in Acts 21:21... and again it is the forsaking of faith.

But Andy man say in 2 Thess 2:3 it must mean the rapture... while he can hardly contain himself from laughing out loud.
 

TokiEl

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If you read Daniel 7, you will learn he had a vision of four beasts. The first beast was a winged lion, the second beast was a bear with three ribs in it's mouth, the third was a four-winged, four-headed leopard, and the fourth was a beast with ten horns.

In this vision, Daniel sees Jesus Christ sitting on a throne, surrounded by persons or beings who are ministering to him, and he is judging from open books. Daniel is told that the three other beasts have already had their dominion taken away, but Jesus Christ destroys the fourth beast himself, and is then given everlasting dominion over everything and everyone.
The lion and the bear and the leopard had their dominion taken away... but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. And the lion and the bear and the leopard make up the body of the foruth beast.

But what are the seven heads ? When John was shown a vision of the woman riding this beast...the angel said five heads were fallen and one is and the 7th would only last a short time... and the beast that was and is not is the 8th from the 7th.

What is the angel talking about ?
 
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TokiEl

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If you read Daniel 7, you will learn he had a vision of four beasts. The first beast was a winged lion, the second beast was a bear with three ribs in it's mouth, the third was a four-winged, four-headed leopard, and the fourth was a beast with ten horns.

In this vision, Daniel sees Jesus Christ sitting on a throne, surrounded by persons or beings who are ministering to him, and he is judging from open books. Daniel is told that the three other beasts have already had their dominion taken away, but Jesus Christ destroys the fourth beast himself, and is then given everlasting dominion over everything and everyone.

Daniel doesn't understand what's going on, so he asks one of the persons standing near Jesus Christ's throne what the deal is. He is told that the four beasts are four kingdoms, but the fourth is different from the others, and will devour the earth and break it into pieces. Daniel is told that the ten horns are ten kings, but a little horn will rise out of them, and will make war and overcome the saints for a time and times and the dividing of time (there's the 1260 days/3.5 years again).

So what makes me say the winged lion is Babylon, the bear is Medo-Persia and the leopard is Greece?
You are saying that the lion and the bear and the leopard that make up the body of the fourth beast... are Babylon and MedoPersia and Greece. Old Babylon is no more although Persia is still around but Greece is hardly a world power today.

But this is the terrible fourth beast ?
 
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TokiEl

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About the Author
Andrew Marshall Woods left his law practice in Southern California to go into ministry full-time in 1998. After obtaining his PhD in Bible Exposition from Dallas Theological Seminary, he was a Full-Professor of Bible and Theology at the College Biblical Studies in Houston, TX (2009-2016). He is currently the president of Chafer Theological Seminary and senior pastor of Sugar Land Bible Church. Andy has a busy speaking schedule on a variety of topics at Christian conferences worldwide and has several published works.
Free grace theology is a Christian soteriological view teaching that everyone receives eternal life the moment that they believe in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

Historic Christian denominations, including the Lutheran Churches, Reformed Churches and the Methodist Churches, regard free grace theology as an antinomian heresy.

Many modern proponents of Free Grace theology studied and taught at the Dallas Theological Seminary, although the seminary itself does not hold to Free Grace, including Charles Caldwell Ryrie, Zane C. Hodges, and Dave Anderson. A number of Free Grace churches are pastored by graduates of DTS.[28] A number of opponents of Free Grace also graduated from DTS including Darrel Bock and Daniel Wallace."



Beware who you listen to... a lot of wolves in sheep's clothings posing as ministers of righteousness have come to devour the flock.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Free grace theology is a Christian soteriological view teaching that everyone receives eternal life the moment that they believe in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

Historic Christian denominations, including the Lutheran Churches, Reformed Churches and the Methodist Churches, regard free grace theology as an antinomian heresy.

Many modern proponents of Free Grace theology studied and taught at the Dallas Theological Seminary, although the seminary itself does not hold to Free Grace, including Charles Caldwell Ryrie, Zane C. Hodges, and Dave Anderson. A number of Free Grace churches are pastored by graduates of DTS.[28] A number of opponents of Free Grace also graduated from DTS including Darrel Bock and Daniel Wallace."



Beware who you listen to... a lot of wolves in sheep's clothings posing as ministers of righteousness have come to devour the flock.
I wonder where Paul would have stood with respect to this question?

Q: Do people receive eternal life the moment that they believe in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

Ephesians 2

Alive with Christ
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The question to me here is when are we raised up? At the point of salvation or at a future point?
 
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Thunderian

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The lion and the bear and the leopard had their dominion taken away... but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
What's the significance of that, in your mind?

And the lion and the bear and the leopard make up the body of the forth beast.
I can't accept that. The Bible is clear that the fourth beast is distinct from the first three.

Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

But what are the seven heads ? When John was shown a vision of the woman riding this beast...the angel said five heads were fallen and one is and the 7th would only last a short time... and the beast that was and is not is the 8th from the 7th.

What is the angel talking about ?
The seven heads are identified as mountains on which the woman sits.

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The seven kings are empires. The five that are fallen are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. The one that Is, obviously, would be Rome, since it was Rome that was in charge when John was writing. The one that is not yet come is made up of the ten kings, or ten horns, of Daniel 7, and that kingdom's sole role is to give their power to the Beast, the eighth king, the little horn.

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
I cheerfully admit that I haven't the slightest clue who the ten kings or kingdoms are, or what configuration the fourth beast will have, in a political or national sense. It's not important, as far as I can see, that we have identities. We won't know who the man of sin will be, so it makes sense we don't know how his political power will come, or from whom. We can guess, of course, and I don't think that the ten kings necessarily have to be countries, or groups of countries, or men. The ten kings could include corporations like Facebook or Google. Or that computer in Belgium that my mom had a book about in 1981 that probably had less computing power than my phone does now.

People don't need to waste their time trying to name names. We can figure out the kind of power the Beast will have, and that will tell is where he will get it. It will be the leaders of the world who will support him.

The Beast is a man who will have incredible might -- political, economic, military, and most importantly, technological -- and the support or cooperation of the entire world, both secular and religious. He will be come with peace in his hand, but will soon begin a war against believers and Jews.
 

TokiEl

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I wonder where Paul would have stood with respect to this question?

Q: Do people receive eternal life the moment that they believe in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

Ephesians 2

Alive with Christ
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The question to me here is when are we raised up? At the point of salvation or at a future point?
Paul says we are saved by grace through faith... and this is the gift of God... not of works and so nobody can boast.

Well we are saved by the spilt blood of Jesus for remission of sins... and this is something no man could accomplish. It is a gift of God. But what about faith ? Jesus wondered if He would find faith when He returned. So what is faith according to Him ?
 

TokiEl

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What's the significance of that, in your mind?
The lion and the bear and the leopard had their dominion taken away yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time... and it is a fact that the lion and the bear and the leopard make up the body of the fourth beast... as the fourth beast is said to look like a leopard with the mouth of a lion and the feet of a bear.

So these three empires the lion and the bear and the leopard lost their empires but lived on for a while... and lo and behold the lion and the bear and the leopard make up the body of the fourth beast.



The seven heads are identified as mountains on which the woman sits.

The seven kings are empires. The five that are fallen are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. The one that Is, obviously, would be Rome, since it was Rome that was in charge when John was writing. The one that is not yet come is made up of the ten kings, or ten horns, of Daniel 7, and that kingdom's sole role is to give their power to the Beast, the eighth king, the little horn.
Egypt and Assyria ? Where did you get that from ? Have you been listening to someone you ought not listen to ?
 
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