Revelation

[phipps]

Replacing Israel with the Church makes God a liar.

God would be a liar if He had a different way of Salvation for one group of people just because of their genes or nationality. That is not biblical at all. That is not God at all.

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:19-22). God’s people, the Church of Christ, now represent the true spiritual house of God, built upon its true spiritual head, Jesus Christ, the cornerstone.

"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him" (Romans 10:12).

 

[phipps]

The Separation of the Church and Israel

Summary: The Bible uses the words "Israel" and "kingdom" in both literal and symbolic senses. Dispensationalism only allows for literal understanding of these terms.

Dispensationalism creates an artificial difference between the Church and Israel. According to this view, the Church consists of those trusting Christ, while Israel consists of the physical descendants of Jacob. Israel receives the benefit of the Abrahamic covenant because it is still God’s chosen people.

Dispensationalist Cyrus Scofield wrote, “The Jew was promised an earthly inheritance, earthly wealth, earthly honor, earthly power. The Church is promised no such thing, but is pointed always to heaven as the place where she is to receive her rest and her reward.”i

Dispensationalists say “the Kingdom” refers to the Jewish earthly kingdom, while the “Church” is composed of believers in Christ with a heavenly inheritance. Even conservative dispensationalist John Walvoord taught that Daniel 9:24-27 predicts the Antichrist rebuilding the temple to fulfill a covenant with the Jewish people in Israel.ii

This may help the government of Israel obtain American foreign aid, but it is at the expense of the truth of God’s Word. Dispensationalists link the destinies of the secular state of Israel with the spiritual Israel—the Church.


The Truth about God’s Kingdom

Jesus told Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world...” (John 18:36). Paul emphasized that both Jew and Gentiles become children of God when he said, “There is neither Jew nor Greek...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:28-29).

Using an olive tree to represent Israel, Paul tells believing Gentiles not to be boastful because “...if God spared not the natural branches [i.e. Jews who did not believe], take heed lest he also spare not thee” (Romans 11:21). In God’s eyes a Gentile who has faith in Christ becomes part of Israel—while a Jew who believes in Christ returns to the “natural olive tree” (See Romans 11). Both the root and the branches are part of the same Israel.

The real “Israel of God” is not a country in the Middle East, but those who trust and follow Christ.


Israel forfeited their blessings as God's chosen people

Deuteronomy 28:1-14 contains a list of blessings God promised to Israel—the most wonderful blessings ever given. These promises were conditional to obedience. Strict warnings were given about the curses that would occur if Israel chose not to obey.

Unfortunately, Israel did not keep God's commands, and became even more corrupt than the nations around them (2 Kings 17:6-23). Disobedience barred Israel from receiving its promised blessings.

In fact, all of Israel's tribes except Judah and Benjamin were carried away into captivity by the king of Assyria and disappear from history. A century and a half later, even Judah was plucked from the Promised Land and scattered in the Neo-Babylonian Empire.

Nevertheless, some remained faithful to God even in exile. Daniel and his friends were willing to face death rather than disobey God.

God gave Israel a second chance. They were to return to their land after 70 years of exile (Jeremiah 31:10-14; Isaiah 43:1-13) and rebuild the temple. They would again have the opportunity to be witnesses to the nations (Micah 4:1-4; 5:2-6; Zechariah 8:20-23). Again, all these promises were conditional to obedience (Zechariah 6:15).

Daniel’s prophecies predicted the coming of the Messiah, but Israel rejected the Messiah, forfeiting its covenant role and the covenant promises:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Matthew 23:37–39)


amazingdiscoveries.org.

 

[Thunderian]

God would be a liar if He had a different way of Salvation for one group of people just because of their genes or nationality. That is not biblical at all. That is not God at all.

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:19-22). God’s people, the Church of Christ, now represent the true spiritual house of God, built upon its true spiritual head, Jesus Christ, the cornerstone.

"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him" (Romans 10:12).

You are completely missing anything I am saying.

Jews are and will be saved the way we all are, by accepting Jesus Christ.

However, the Bible tells us of a time when ALL Israel will turn as one and accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

Then, Israel will inherit the promises that were made to them.

Please stop quoting that verse about Jews and Greeks. Yes, there is no distinction made between Jews and Greeks, males and females, but Jews don't stop being Jews when they accept Jesus Christ any more than I stopped being a male when I accepted him.

 

[Thunderian]

The Separation of the Church and Israel

Summary: The Bible uses the words "Israel" and "kingdom" in both literal and symbolic senses. Dispensationalism only allows for literal understanding of these terms.

Dispensationalism creates an artificial difference between the Church and Israel. According to this view, the Church consists of those trusting Christ, while Israel consists of the physical descendants of Jacob. Israel receives the benefit of the Abrahamic covenant because it is still God’s chosen people.

Dispensationalist Cyrus Scofield wrote, “The Jew was promised an earthly inheritance, earthly wealth, earthly honor, earthly power. The Church is promised no such thing, but is pointed always to heaven as the place where she is to receive her rest and her reward.”i

Dispensationalists say “the Kingdom” refers to the Jewish earthly kingdom, while the “Church” is composed of believers in Christ with a heavenly inheritance. Even conservative dispensationalist John Walvoord taught that Daniel 9:24-27 predicts the Antichrist rebuilding the temple to fulfill a covenant with the Jewish people in Israel.ii

This may help the government of Israel obtain American foreign aid, but it is at the expense of the truth of God’s Word. Dispensationalists link the destinies of the secular state of Israel with the spiritual Israel—the Church.


The Truth about God’s Kingdom

Jesus told Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world...” (John 18:36). Paul emphasized that both Jew and Gentiles become children of God when he said, “There is neither Jew nor Greek...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:28-29).

Using an olive tree to represent Israel, Paul tells believing Gentiles not to be boastful because “...if God spared not the natural branches [i.e. Jews who did not believe], take heed lest he also spare not thee” (Romans 11:21). In God’s eyes a Gentile who has faith in Christ becomes part of Israel—while a Jew who believes in Christ returns to the “natural olive tree” (See Romans 11). Both the root and the branches are part of the same Israel.

The real “Israel of God” is not a country in the Middle East, but those who trust and follow Christ.


Israel forfeited their blessings as God's chosen people

Deuteronomy 28:1-14 contains a list of blessings God promised to Israel—the most wonderful blessings ever given. These promises were conditional to obedience. Strict warnings were given about the curses that would occur if Israel chose not to obey.

Unfortunately, Israel did not keep God's commands, and became even more corrupt than the nations around them (2 Kings 17:6-23). Disobedience barred Israel from receiving its promised blessings.

In fact, all of Israel's tribes except Judah and Benjamin were carried away into captivity by the king of Assyria and disappear from history. A century and a half later, even Judah was plucked from the Promised Land and scattered in the Neo-Babylonian Empire.

Nevertheless, some remained faithful to God even in exile. Daniel and his friends were willing to face death rather than disobey God.

God gave Israel a second chance. They were to return to their land after 70 years of exile (Jeremiah 31:10-14; Isaiah 43:1-13) and rebuild the temple. They would again have the opportunity to be witnesses to the nations (Micah 4:1-4; 5:2-6; Zechariah 8:20-23). Again, all these promises were conditional to obedience (Zechariah 6:15).

Daniel’s prophecies predicted the coming of the Messiah, but Israel rejected the Messiah, forfeiting its covenant role and the covenant promises:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Matthew 23:37–39)


amazingdiscoveries.org.

Why does the Bible repeatedly tell us that Israel will be restored to God and will inherit all the blessings they were promised?

What did God mean in Hosea 5 when he said, "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."?

Please explain this verse from Zechariah 12, if Israel is finished.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.​

​

The house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem can refer to no other people than the Jews. The one who they pierced is clearly Jesus Christ. If Israel is done, this verse make no sense. Putting the Church in place of Israel makes even less sense.

Zechariah 13 goes on to say:

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.​

Who was wounded in his hands? Who could this be that Israel will mourn?

What will their final disposition be? God tells us that two thirds of them will be destroyed, but the remnant will be clean, tried and pure, and will finally be God's people.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.​

Israel goes through the events depicted in Revelation. It's the 70th week of Daniel, and the Church has nothing to do with it. That's why we're Raptured.

In light of these verses, and I can give you HUNDREDS more, how can you say Israel is finished?

 

[TokiEl]

Israel goes through the events depicted in Revelation. It's the 70th week of Daniel, and the Church has nothing to do with it. That's why we're Raptured.

Why would you be raptured ?

What is it with you that make you think you are rapture material ?

While Christians are being persecuted and killed for their faith... you will be raptured ?

Why you ?

 

[Thunderian]

Why would you be raptured ?

What is it with you that make you think you are rapture material ?

While Christians are being persecuted and killed for their faith... you will be raptured ?

Why you ?

I am part of the body of Jesus Christ, the Church, and I am sealed by the Holy Spirit.

1Co 12:13​

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​

All who are in Christ are qualified for the Rapture.

1Th 4:16​

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

​

1Th 4:17​

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Yes, there are Christians who have it far worse than I do. I suffer no persecution, but persecution doesn't make us saved. Jesus Christ makes us saved. You know this, and you shouldn't be asking foolish questions. You could be learning something here. God knows you need it.

Have you confessed your sin and accepted the salvation Jesus Christ died for? You have no salvation testimony, and you don't seem to understand that you're a sinner, so I wonder. There is no salvation after the Rapture for those who have rejected the Gospel. You need to make sure.

 

[TokiEl]

I am part of the body of Jesus Christ, the Church, and I am sealed by the Holy Spirit.

1Co 12:13​

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​

All who are in Christ are qualified for the Rapture.

1Th 4:16​

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

​

1Th 4:17​

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Yes, there are Christians who have it far worse than I do. I suffer no persecution, but persecution doesn't make us saved. Jesus Christ makes us saved. You know this, and you shouldn't be asking foolish questions. You could be learning something here. God knows you need it.

Have you confessed your sin and accepted the salvation Jesus Christ died for? You have no salvation testimony, and you don't seem to understand that you're a sinner, so I wonder. There is no salvation after the Rapture for those who have rejected the Gospel. You need to make sure.

You sound like a smug fuk to me.

 

[TokiEl]

Have you confessed your sin and accepted the salvation Jesus Christ died for?

You don't even understand what salvation is.

Salvation is to turn from sins that is stop sinning and starting to live according to His words.

If you do that... your sins will be forgiven.

God can easily forgive your sins because God actually paid the price for your sins.


You and the church think salvation is just believe in Jesus and that every sin even premeditated murder will be forgiven after coming to Christ. And that's why Jesus will tell many to go away.

 

[Serveto]

If Jews are considered the physical offspring and progeny of Abraham, how is it that, if I correctly read it, a bunch of Persians at the time of Esther became Jews?

"And in every province and in every city, wherever the king's order and his edict reached, [there was] joy and gladness for the Jews, a banquet and a festive day, and many of the peoples of the land became Jews because the fear of the Jews was upon them."
Esther 8:12​

 

[Thunderian]

If Jews are considered the physical offspring and progeny of Abraham, how is it that, if I correctly read it, a bunch of Persians at the time of Esther became Jews?

"And in every province and in every city, wherever the king's order and his edict reached, [there was] joy and gladness for the Jews, a banquet and a festive day, and many of the peoples of the land became Jews because the fear of the Jews was upon them."​

Esther 8:12​

Conversion to Judaism is a thing. Rahab and Ruth, both ancestors of Jesus Christ, were converts.

 

[Thunderian]

Conversion, at least for males, must not have been a light decision, on account of the old snippity-snip.

Exo 12:48​

And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.​

​

Exo 12:49​

One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.​

 

[Serveto]

Conversion to Judaism is a thing. Rahab and Ruth, both ancestors of Jesus Christ, were converts.

Do people who convert to Judaism become, somehow, physical descendants of Abraham? The question may seem silly, but isn't that what is essentially being claimed: that Jews are the physical descendants of Abraham and are thus the proper inheritors of Jerusalem and its surrounding territories?

 

[Thunderian]

Do people who convert to Judaism become, somehow, physical descendants of Abraham? The question may seem silly, but isn't that what is essentially being claimed: that Jews are the physical descendants of Abraham and are thus the proper inheritors of Jerusalem and its surrounding territories?

Unless all today's Jews are descendants of converts, and not of Abraham, I don't know that it matters, but I think that, for God's purposes, the convert is considered just as much a Jew as a natural born descendant of Abraham. He says they are the same under the law.

Exo 12:49​

One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.​

​

So all the Church needs to do to become Israel is keep the law that was given to Israel, including circumcision.

 

[TokiEl]

If Jews are considered the physical offspring and progeny of Abraham, how is it that, if I correctly read it, a bunch of Persians at the time of Esther became Jews?

"And in every province and in every city, wherever the king's order and his edict reached, [there was] joy and gladness for the Jews, a banquet and a festive day, and many of the peoples of the land became Jews because the fear of the Jews was upon them."​

Esther 8:12​

God of course got no problem with Persians or any other people wanting to worship Him and observe His commandments.

Same with Jesus no race preference whatsoever. Equal opportunity for all to relate to the true God.

Everybody got the knowledge of good and evil and the conscience to tell them the difference...

 

[Serveto]

"Beware the leaven of the Pharisees ..."

So all the Church needs to do to become Israel is keep the law that was given to Israel, including circumcision.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."
Matthew 23:15​

 

[TokiEl]

Do people who convert to Judaism become, somehow, physical descendants of Abraham? The question may seem silly, but isn't that what is essentially being claimed: that Jews are the physical descendants of Abraham and are thus the proper inheritors of Jerusalem and its surrounding territories?

Both the prophets and Jesus foretold the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the Jewish diaspora... and both foretold the return and restoration of a remnant of that Jewish diaspora.

It is all going according to the book of God.

 

[phipps]

The Forty-Two Month Prophetic Time Period

Summary: Revelation 13 says that the Antichrist will rule for 42 months. How does that add up considering the other Biblical prophecies about the Antichrist's reign?

The Bible prophecies about the end times tell us how long the Antichrist will rule. Revelation 13 says that period will be 42 months:

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months" (Revelation 13:5).

The 42 months that the Antichrist have authority is the same time period that the little horn power will have authority in Daniel 7:25, because the little horn of Daniel 7 and the beast of Revelation 13 are the same power.

Time, times and half a time, 42 months, and 1260 days are all the same time period written in different forms. This can be deduced from Hebrew parallelism.

Every time the Bible mentions this prophetic period it refers to the Papacy. As prophetic days symbolize actual years, this 1260-year period began in 538 AD when the Papacy established itself as the ruling religious power, and ended in 1798 when the Papacy appeared to receive a deadly wound.

During its period of supremacy, the Papacy wielded more power than even the emperors of Rome. Kings laid their crowns at the feet of the Pope, and had him crown them. The Pope was supreme over all nations and peoples.

 

[phipps]

The First Beast's Wound

Summary: One key characteristic of the first beast of Revelation 13 is that it receives a wound that appears deadly, but then heals.

The first beast of Revelation 13 comes from the sea. In Revelation 13:3, the beast seems to receive a mortal wound, but it is then healed:

"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

This is how the BBE version renders the text:

"And I saw one of his heads as if it had been given a death-wound; and his death-wound was made well: and all the earth was wondering at the beast."

And the NIV translates it like this:

"One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast."

The wound is a counterfeit wound, but nevertheless appears to be a mortal wound.

The Beast forms part of a trilogy of powers that constitute the last great confederacy against God, which the Bible calls Babylon. This end-time Babylon consists of three components: the Beast, the Dragon and the False Prophet. This false trinity wars against the true triune God.

The Papacy’s Counterfeit Wound

Papal supremacy of the Middle Ages ended in the year 1798, exactly 1260 years after Justinian’s decree established the Papacy as the supreme Christian power in 538 AD. In 1798, Napoleon’s army took the Pope captive and put him into exile. The murder of a Frenchman in Rome in 1798 gave the French the excuse they wanted to occupy the Eternal City.

It was really believed that the era of papal power had come to an end forever. However, the prophecy says, “And his deadly wound was healed and all the world wondered after the beast” (Revelation 13:3).

Since the Papacy had apparently lost its political status after the Pope's capture in 1798, it was, for all intents and purposes, dead. It could only be resurrected if it regained its political status.

Healing of the Wound

In 1929, Prime Minister Benito Mussolini and Cardinal Pietro Gasparri signed an accord whereby the Pope had to pledge his own political party’s support to Mussolini in exchange for the return of his papal seat and power.

This monumental event was recorded in the San Francisco Chronicle with the heading "Mussolini and Gasparri sign Historic Roman Pact." Even at that point, people understood the significance of what had happened. From 1929 onward, the political status of the Vatican was thus reinstated and the wound could heal fully.

The Beast, or Papacy, claims to be the representative of Christ. It demands the world’s obedience and also experienced a counterfeit death and resurrection. At the end of time, the power of the resurrected Papacy will be so great that no one would venture to make war against it. The deadly wound will be healed.

amazingdiscoveries.org.

 

[Thunderian]

@phipps, where does the woman of Revelation 12 fit in?

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.​

 

[TokiEl]

The First Beast's Wound

Summary: One key characteristic of the first beast of Revelation 13 is that it receives a wound that appears deadly, but then heals.

The first beast of Revelation 13 comes from the sea. In Revelation 13:3, the beast seems to receive a mortal wound, but it is then healed:

"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

Nobody wondered about the fact that the papacy continued right after Napolen put the pope in prison.

The one head of the beast (out of seven) with the mortal wound is simply not the papacy. Besides who are the other six heads ?

Who can make war with the beast ? Napoleon had no problem making war with the papacy... even Monaco would win in a war against the pope.


You keep sprouting the same errors like your salary depends on it...