Reincarnation Is An Irrefutable Fact

shankara

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I don’t think that’s logical at all. We all want it to be logical but its not and I don’t think that it works in real life.
A man could get 20 years because he stole something but a murderer could get 10 years...sometimes the time doesn’t seem to fit the crime.
Exactly why reincarnation is necessary in order for everything to eventually balance itself out.
 






Lisa

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Exactly why reincarnation is necessary in order for everything to eventually balance itself out.
No, things don’t get balanced out...we have one life to live, that’s all we get and we must decided correctly about this life or else there is hell to pay...don’t ya think?
 






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Re:antireincarnation

The souls of animals and morality.

Problem that arises is that animals are basically damned to hell in the mainstream Abrahamic model if you take it seriously. There is clearly more to it, or else, given that the 'animals nature' in mankind itself is seen to be evil ("sins of the flesh" et al), then animals by their nature are beings destined to hell. There is no way around it under the typical pretenses. (things get even worse if you believe that belief and morals are salvation, because animals don't believe anything or follow any moral systems, they are purely innocent).
If animals don't have souls however, then things are just strange, and provokes the question of whether we ourselves even have souls, or what a 'soul' even is.

Also, morality. If morality (in the metaphysical sense, not in the sociological or anthropological/cultural) exists, then any kind of being would be subject to that, God as much as you or I. Considering how terrible God is in the Bible, that cannot be a source of morality. Morality has to come from some metaphysical law relating to the relation of things in the material universe. The Dharmic view explains this very eloquently and is more reliable in grounding this fact.
Without some kind of interlocking concept such as reincarnation (which solidifies the reality of the soul through the mode of Karma), then morality itself cannot be said to have a stable existence - whether in a Christian or Atheist worldview makes no difference here.
 






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Lisa

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Re:antireincarnation

The souls of animals and morality.

Problem that arises is that animals are basically damned to hell in the mainstream Abrahamic model if you take it seriously. There is clearly more to it, or else, given that the 'animals nature' in mankind itself is seen to be evil ("sins of the flesh" et al), then animals by their nature are beings destined to hell. There is no way around it under the typical pretenses,
If animals don't have souls however, then things are just strange.

Also, morality. If morality (in the metaphysical sense, not in the sociological or cultural) exists, then any kind of being would be subject to that, God as much as you or I. Considering how terrible God is in the Bible, that cannot be a source of morality. Morality has to come from some metaphysical law relating to the relation of things in the material universe. The Dharmic view explains this very eloquently and is more reliable in grounding this fact.
Without some kind of interlocking concept such as reincarnation (which solidifies the reality of the soul through the mode of Karma), then morality itself cannot be said to have a stable existence - whether in a Christian or Atheist worldview makes no difference here.
Why would this work with animals? Did Jesus come to save animals? I don’t see where that happened in the Bible.

Morality cannot come from a material universe..what would the material universe care about morality? That’s silly reasoning really. But, a holy God caring about morality isn’t silly is it? In fact it make more sense. Where do we get this right and wrong concept from? The universe, or a God who created us and put HIs laws in our hearts?

I don’t think God is terrible in the Bible...He did send His Son after all to save us all from His punishment...that’s pretty good don’t ya think?
 






A Freeman

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I would like to believe that reincarnation is a “fact,” but the realistic fact is that not a living souls has ever returned to Earth and told anyone anything about this being true. There is simply zero proof.
Did you watch the videos please? There are countless similar stories people have shared about previous life experiences that have no other possible explanation.

It is also a well-documented fact that MILLIONS of people have had out-of-body near-death experiences (NDEs).

What do you think "déjà vu" is? How exactly do you explain small children exhibiting skills they've never learned (e.g. playing a piano by ear the first time they see one)?

We are literally SURROUNDED by proof.
 






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Why would this work with animals? Did Jesus come to save animals? I don’t see where that happened in the Bible.
That's a question worth pondering, seriously. If we're going to apply such ideas to humans, then we need to consider other living things often thought to possess a soul and consciousness.

Morality cannot come from a material universe..
I didn't say that, read again. ("from some metaphysical law"..)

That’s silly reasoning really. But, a holy God caring about morality isn’t silly is it?
Firstly you have to demonstrate how a deity from a book (that acts the way that Satan is otherwise depicted and envisioned by Christians) would be the pillar for morality.


He did send His Son after all to save us all from His punishment...that’s pretty good don’t ya think?
No, that's actually very horrible and worthy of all the condemnation it can possibly get.
 






Lisa

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"God demands blood sacrifice" just let that sink in.
Yes, you should. Sin is so bad it needs a blood sacrifice to correct. It means your life is forfeit. That really should get people thinking...but it doesn’t because all people focus on is how unfair they think their life should be forfeit for lying etc...
 






Lisa

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That's a question worth pondering, seriously. If we're going to apply such ideas to humans, then we need to consider other living things often thought to possess a soul and consciousness.
Why? Humans and animals are separate entities..animals were not created in the image of God.

I didn't say that, read again. ("from some metaphysical law"..)
Guess I misread that...what is the difference?

Firstly you have to demonstrate how a deity from a book (that acts the way that Satan is otherwise depicted and envisioned by Christians) would be the pillar for morality.
How does God act the way satan is depicted? Since God says He put His laws in our hearts..then that is the one who made the laws, don’t ya think?

No, that's actually very horrible and worthy of all the condemnation it can possibly get.
Do you want to take the punishment for your own sin..or would you be happy to get a pass on that because someone else took it for you?
 






Lisa

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How did you come to this conclusion?
Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness.
Hebrews‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
‭‭​
 






elsbet

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Depends how you're defining virtue doesn't it? If you mean the unnecessary cultivation of extreme asceticism, yes I can that such a mode of action would be self-centered. But the "love thy neighbour as thyself" kind of virtues, like compassion, wishing peace, resistance against forces of oppression, honesty, I can't see how cultivating these sorts of qualities can be egoistic exactly. By the way, I'm not suggesting that I do fully manifest them myself!
Loving your neighbor as yourself is ideal-- it encompasses all the other things listed after, and is one of the "... two commandments [on which] hang all the Law and the Prophets."

As a means of salvation, though, it doesn't add up-- a basic understanding of human nature ought to tell us that generally speaking, we aren't capable. And, if those virtues are what a person believes will save him, then he would necessarily have to focus on himself. Reincarnation? Another round, focusing on what you did wrong, so you can get it right. But isn't the goal self- knowledge or actualization, anyway? Self-oriented? Imo, it just doesn't make sense-- not intellectually, and certainly not spiritually.
Oh and isn't professing a creed as a means of salvation exactly and entirely what Protestantism is about? Perhaps you have a better definition of it?
If professing a creed is exactly and entirely what it is about, we could have managed nicely for millennia with only a pamphlet.

And it is a spiritually binding agreement to be possessed by the Spirit of God.
 






elsbet

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Re:antireincarnation

The souls of animals and morality.

Problem that arises is that animals are basically damned to hell in the mainstream Abrahamic model if you take it seriously. There is clearly more to it, or else, given that the 'animals nature' in mankind itself is seen to be evil ("sins of the flesh" et al), then animals by their nature are beings destined to hell. There is no way around it under the typical pretenses. (things get even worse if you believe that belief and morals are salvation, because animals don't believe anything or follow any moral systems, they are purely innocent).
If animals don't have souls however, then things are just strange, and provokes the question of whether we ourselves even have souls, or what a 'soul' even is.

Also, morality. If morality (in the metaphysical sense, not in the sociological or anthropological/cultural) exists, then any kind of being would be subject to that, God as much as you or I. Considering how terrible God is in the Bible, that cannot be a source of morality. Morality has to come from some metaphysical law relating to the relation of things in the material universe. The Dharmic view explains this very eloquently and is more reliable in grounding this fact.
Without some kind of interlocking concept such as reincarnation (which solidifies the reality of the soul through the mode of Karma), then morality itself cannot be said to have a stable existence - whether in a Christian or Atheist worldview makes no difference here.
lol
 






A Freeman

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Re:antireincarnation

The souls of animals and morality.

Problem that arises is that animals are basically damned to hell in the mainstream Abrahamic model if you take it seriously. There is clearly more to it, or else, given that the 'animals nature' in mankind itself is seen to be evil ("sins of the flesh" et al), then animals by their nature are beings destined to hell. There is no way around it under the typical pretenses. (things get even worse if you believe that belief and morals are salvation, because animals don't believe anything or follow any moral systems, they are purely innocent).
If animals don't have souls however, then things are just strange, and provokes the question of whether we ourselves even have souls, or what a 'soul' even is.

Also, morality. If morality (in the metaphysical sense, not in the sociological or anthropological/cultural) exists, then any kind of being would be subject to that, God as much as you or I. Considering how terrible God is in the Bible, that cannot be a source of morality. Morality has to come from some metaphysical law relating to the relation of things in the material universe. The Dharmic view explains this very eloquently and is more reliable in grounding this fact.
Without some kind of interlocking concept such as reincarnation (which solidifies the reality of the soul through the mode of Karma), then morality itself cannot be said to have a stable existence - whether in a Christian or Atheist worldview makes no difference here.
Nonsense.

Animals are animals. What is flesh is flesh (mortal), and what is spirit is spirit (immortal).

A LIVING Soul = a spiritual-Being = a Jinn = an angel = the REAL you, which is temporarily "locked" inside the human body you see in the mirror.

Morality in REALITY is ETERNAL. It is not some transient theory for lunatics to debate and alter as they see fit, exactly as is being done in the world today through the government and its propaganda organs (e.g. mainstream media, the courts AND organized religions).

Just think about how many things have been twisted upside down and backwards just in the last 6000 years and how that would play out over eternity in a "make up your own rules as you go along" universe.

We have been give ONE PERFECT LAW by our Creator--found in the first five books of the Bible, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy (which also include unmistakable references to reincarnation)--which defines what is good and what is evil in His UNCHANGING Mind. THAT is where morality originates.
 






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Why? Humans and animals are separate entities..animals were not created in the image of God.
No, but they are created and they are conscious beings that live on this earth, which creates massive theological issues whatever way you try to answer the problem.

Guess I misread that...what is the difference?
Wait, so you don't know the difference between the material world and the metaphysical? :rolleyes: (aka, the 'spiritual' or transcendent)

How does God act the way satan is depicted? Since God says He put His laws in our hearts..then that is the one who made the laws, don’t ya think?
Read this and make up your own mind: http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2012/06/yahweh-and-problem-of-evil-why-yahweh.html

This is not a subject I really need to add anything to.

Do you want to take the punishment for your own sin..
Yes, that is called accountability.

Anyway, under your own worldview you contradict yourself because you believe that people who reject Jesus are going to hell anyway, so he served really no important role at all, in that aspect.
 






Lisa

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Reincarnation? Another round, focusing on what you did wrong, so you can get it right.
I didn’t realize that was why people believe in it..thanks! It does make sense..people don’t ever want to lean on God, but will try to get it all right in themselves..they are all they need.
 






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Nonsense.

Animals are animals. What is flesh is flesh (mortal), and what is spirit is spirit (immortal).

A LIVING Soul = a spiritual-Being = a Jinn = an angel = the REAL you, which is temporarily "locked" inside the human body you see in the mirror.

Morality in REALITY is ETERNAL. It is not some transient theory for lunatics to debate and alter as they see fit, exactly as is being done in the world today through the government and its propaganda organs (e.g. mainstream media, the courts AND organized religions).

Just think about how many things have been twisted upside down and backwards just in the last 6000 years and how that would play out over eternity in a "make up your own rules as you go along" universe.

We have been give ONE PERFECT LAW by our Creator--found in the first five books of the Bible, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy (which also include unmistakable references to reincarnation)--which defines what is good and what is evil in His UNCHANGING Mind. THAT is where morality originates.
You really haven't provided anything here. Are you saying that animals don't have souls? why do you think animals exist at all?
 






Lisa

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No, but they are created and they are conscious beings that live on this earth, which creates massive theological issues whatever way you try to answer the problem.
They don’t have the ability to reason or know what the world is about..they just are.

Wait, so you don't know the difference between the material world and the metaphysical? :rolleyes: (aka, the 'spiritual' or transcendent)
You related them..
Morality has to come from some metaphysical law relating to the relation of things in the material universe.
Read this and make up your own mind:
I already know the truth, thanks

Yes, that is called accountability.

Anyway, under your own worldview you contradict yourself because you believe that people who reject Jesus are going to hell anyway, so he served really no important role at all, in that aspect.
He did serve an important role...not everyone will go to hell now.
 






shankara

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Loving your neighbor as yourself is ideal-- it encompasses all the other things listed after, and is one of the "... two commandments [on which] hang all the Law and the Prophets."

As a means of salvation, though, it doesn't add up-- a basic understanding of human nature ought to tell us that generally speaking, we aren't capable. And, if those virtues are what a person believes will save him, then he would necessarily have to focus on himself. Reincarnation? Another round, focusing on what you did wrong, so you can get it right. But isn't the goal self- knowledge or actualization, anyway? Self-oriented? Imo, it just doesn't make sense-- not intellectually, and certainly not spiritually.

If professing a creed is exactly and entirely what it is about, we could have managed nicely for millennia with only a pamphlet.

And it is a spiritually binding agreement to be possessed by the Spirit of God.
Yeah so of course actually manifesting that command is a very difficult thing... Which is why it takes many lifetimes.

You are attempting to reduce belief in reincarnation to being simply the product of some kind of psychological weakness, some longing for "another chance". It could be that there are cases where people are thinking like that, where it is founded on complexes, but then you can find the same kind of cases with nearly any belief. Saying that is the centre of it all is simply reductionism which is always a serious obstacle to clear thinking.

I don't really see how focusing on manifesting what is necessary for humanity as a whole can be self-centred except in a very indirect and circuitous way. Maybe from the Nietzschian perspective you could have a point, but then I have the funny feeling that either you have never read or would be seriously opposed to the ideas of Nietzsche...?
 






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