Red Heifer Birth Paves Way For Renewed Temple Service

[Karlysymon]

I guess I would see the "wicked tenants" applying to that generation and clearly the diaspora and destruction of the Temple followed from that rebellion.

It can't be a permenant rejection otherwise Paul's words on the ingrafted olive tree would make no sense?

So you are saying that Jesus, saying that He'd take the kingdom of God away from them, would somehow return that kingdom to them later? You'd have to provide a verse to back up your claim.
***
Just to be clear, my position is they weren't cast off forever, like a complete rejection. They simply lost their privilege. That's why in sunday school, we sing that we are all Abraham's kids. Natural descent has no bearing on spirituality as is circumcision of the flesh.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

So you are saying that Jesus, saying that He'd take the kingdom of God away from them, would somehow return that kingdom to them later? You'd have to provide a verse to back up your claim.
***
Just to be clear, my position is they weren't cast off forever, like a complete rejection. They simply lost their privilege. That's why in sunday school, we sing that we are all Abraham's kids. Natural descent has no bearing on spirituality as is circumcision of the flesh.

Rather - I think that together the Jews and Gentiles who make it through to the Millennium will be united if faith in Jesus. There is no "other" way to salvation for them or alternative covenant. They cannot carry on forever with types and shadows. God brings them (and the rest of the world that rejects Jesus) to a point of final decision during the Tribulation.

I think it's put pretty well here...

 

[Daciple]

Except that's not being honest at all.

It is, it is being 100% totally and completely honest, just because you dont acknowledge it doesnt mean its not the Truth.

Paul taught the pre-tribulation raptuire (and dispensationalism, and the restoration of Israel)

Absolutely not, Paul had no mind of Pre Trib Rapture, some 7 year reign of the Antichrist that the Christians would be taken from the World before he comes, this idea of dispensationalism nor does he teach a physical restoration of Israel on Earth.

You wouldnt think any of this either if you were not told to read and interpret the Bible under the googles of Dispensationalism and JND teachings...

so did many others who came after him.

Absolutely not, not until the 1800's, again the writings you are providing are choosing to interpret it in a dispensational mind set, just like the one you provided in this Post. Lets look at that..

So here are some facts concerning this writing, it is called The Sermon of the End of the World attributed to Ephraim the Syrian who lived from 306-373. However most scholars and historians believe that this wasnt actually written by him but instead used his name to give it more credence. This probably was written anywhere from 373-627 we dont know when it was written, still lets go ahead and look at what he did write and see if it actually lines up to Dispensationalism and Pre Trib Rapture as you would like to tell us it does...

From this Sermon:

We have already told you that the end of the world is near, the consummation remains.

When the Roman Empire begins to be consumed by the sword, the coming of the Evil One is at hand. It is necessary that the world come to an end at the completion of the Roman Empire.

And so the Adversary will be loosed and will stir up hatred between the Persian and Roman empires. There will be stirrings of nations and evil reports, pestilences, famines, and earthquakes in various places. All nations will receive captives; there will be wars and rumors of wars. From the rising to the setting of the sun the sword will devour much. The times will be so dangerous that in fear and trembling they will not permit thought of better things, because many will be the oppressions and desolations of regions that are to come.

We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom.

So off rip we see that no where in this does he even hint at a Restoration of Israel, he says clearly that EVERYTHING has been fulfilled the only thing left is for the Antichrist to come and the Lord to Return. This alone immediately disqualifies this writing as being supportive of Dispensationalism or the Pre Trib Rapture. Yet if we read further in the writings the timing of the event called Rapture is given without question.

And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy of son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the wood of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints, with those who bear the sign of the holy cross upon their shoulders, as the angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come! Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord forever and ever.

He clearly puts the timing of the Rapture Event, you know when the dead in Christ arise to meet Him, after all the events of the Tribulation. This is NOT a document that supports Dispensationalism nor the Pre Trib Rapture. Just because you saw it on some Pro Pre Trib Rapture site doesnt mean anything, it would help to read the whole text and you know, update your knowledge...

As for the meaning behind your quote, IDK if you Thunder are aware of this, but there is 2 different version of this same document, one in Syriac and one in Latin. You cite the Latin version, from Wiki:

A translation of a radically different "Ephraem" text, written in Latin and with disputed date, and also purported to be a sermon of Ephraem, has been put forward by Cameron Rhoades, a professor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, an unaccreditedprivate Christian seminary located in Fort Worth, Texas.[2] This document has been proffered as support for an early Church reference to a pretribulational rapture — the belief that a core of Christian believers who have died will be raised from the dead, and believers who are still alive and remain shall be "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess 4:17) in conjunction with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. While the Latin text is dated in the period 4th to 8th centuries, exactly when in that time bracket is questionable. The Latin text is certainly not translated from the (radically different) Syriac sermon, and may be earlier or later than the Syriac document. Its relation to the Greek texts is uncertain.

So lets look at what the more reputable Syriac Document states:

People will flee to cemeteries And hide themselves among the dead, Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions! But as for us, woe is us! For when we die, Vultures will serve as escort for us!' And if the days of that time were not shortened, The elect would never survive The calamities and afflictions. For Our Lord revealed (and) disclosed to us In his Gospel when He said: 'Those days will be shortened For the sake of the elect and the saints.' And when he has harassed the whole of creation, (When) the Son of Destruction (has bent it) to his will, Enoch and Elijah will be sent That they might persuade the Evil One. With a gentle question The saints will come before him, In order to expose the Son of Destruction Before the assemblies surrounding him

According to the Syriac Document the way people avoid what is to come is by death not some Secret Rapture.

So it would do one well to read the whole of what they cite and see if it really says what they wish it to or not, this document you provided does not in anyway actually teach Dispensationalism, the Regathering of Israel (actually denounces that ideal to be honest) or some Pre Trib Rapture.

What else did you cite for me to update my knowledge, lets see if they cherry pick and lie concerning these things like the last source you cited:

The Shepherd of Hermas

So read over all of that and absolutely no where does this even hint at Dispensationalism, Eschatology or Pre Trib Rapture. I mean here is what I see as the actual meaning behind this:

That if we are faithful to God then we will not have to endure many Tribulations in THIS LIFE however the end of this says:

I asked her concerning the four colours, which the beast had upon its head. Then she answered me and said, ‘Again thou are curious about such matters.’ ‘Yes, lady,’ said I, ‘make known unto me what these things are.’ ‘Listen,’ said she; ‘the black is this world in which ye dwell; and the fire and blood colour showeth that this world must perish by blood and fire; and the golden part are ye that have escaped from this world (to\ß de\ crusouvn me/roß uJmei√ß ejste/ oiJ ejkfugo/teß to\n ko/smon touvton.). For as the gold is tested by fire and is made useful, so ye also [that dwell in it] are being tested in yourselves. Ye then that abide and pass through the fire will be purified by it. For as the gold loses its dross, so ye also shall cast away all sorrow and tribulation, and shall be purified, and shall be useful for building of the tower.

This seems much more of us going thru things in this World and testing and being purified by experiencing these Tribulations than some type of teaching on being Raptured before a Final Tribulation. I mean even in the description of the colors its simply speaking of what we all as Christian know and experience, we go thru Fire Trials to purify us and draw us closer to the Lord and bring us out of the World.

1 Peter 4;12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

And from your own source:

While Hermas clearly speaks of escaping the tribulation, pretribulationists and nonpretribulationists tend to agree that he does not articulate a clear message similar to modern pretribulationism

Whats next:

IRENAEUS

From your own source again:

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.

So no go on him as well, whats next:

IMMINENCY IN THE EARLY CHURCH

Do you even read your own sources brother? Look at what they say:

`In sum, with few exceptions, the premillennial fathers of the early church believed that they were living in the last times. Thus they looked daily for the Lord’s return. Even most of those who looked for Antichrist’s appearance prior to the second advent, saw that event as occurring suddenly

So according to your own Source the Early Church believed they were living in the Last Days therefore what does that presuppose? That there was absolutely no thought in their mind of Israel being Re Established to usher in the Anitchrist. I didnt quote the next part of that sentence because it is wrong, at least in context of what they wish it meant. However what does your own source conclude?

“the historical fact is that the early church fathers’ view on prophecy did not correspond to what is advanced by pretribulationists today except for the one important point that both subscribe to the imminency of the rapture.

So what have I been saying? That no one in the past viewed prophecy in the method you do and your own source says I am right. No one ever looked at Prophecy the way you do until John Nelson Darby invented his theology. As for this idea of an imminent rapture, so what! That doesnt uphold Dispensationalism or Pre Trib or anything you profess as being believed in prior to JND.

Lets get it straight, I who do no longer hold to Dispensationalism, nor the Pre Trib, believe that the Rapture of the Church is imminent, it can happen literally at any time. In fact THAT is a Historical view point, one that dates to Paul and the Apostles. They did not THINK Israel had to be restored for Jesus to come back and take them, they didnt think this or that had to happen. They believed that the Bible Prophecy had been completed the only thing left was Jesus to Return and that is it...

So again another section that doesnt in anyway uphold Dispensationalism being taught by anyone prior to JND...

BROTHER DOLCINO

However, such a view falls short of Darby’s developed form of a rapture within a dispensational, futurist framework.

Another swing and miss even from your own sources mouth, nice...

THOMAS COLLIER

Your source concludes something interesting concerning him as well. He lived in the late 1600's and of him and that time they say what?

If this is a pre-trib rapture statement, it was hardly recognized as such at the time. It is true that Collier had a futurist view of Revelation, which was rare to non-existent in his day.

So your own source concludes that its very doubtful that anything he had to say or even debate against upheld Dispensationalist or a Pre Trib view of Eschatology and then goes on to say clearly that a Futurist view of Revelation was if anything rare or more like did not at all exist...

So far all you have done is proven my statement correct sir...


JOHN ASGILL

Conclusion:

Asgill did not relate the possible any-moment translation to the tribulation or any other prophetic event. Thus, his view could hardly be call any form of pretribulationism


Another person who cant be cited for Dispensationalism or Pre Trib...

MORGAN EDWARDS

So this is the ONLY person on your list that comes close to saying anything along the lines of Dispensationalism and the Pre Trib, even tho if I so choose or if you decide to read your own source, can clearly see there are differences between what you hold and he held.

So good job Thunder you overwhelmingly proved my point that no one on Earth viewed Eschatology, or believed in Dispensationalism the way you do until John Nelson Darby invented it all in the 1800's. Your own source says this over and over again. I highly suggest you read your sources before quoting them to make sure they align to the position you would like others to accept. Instead it basically proved you wrong and me right. In case you missed it the first time:

If this is a pre-trib rapture statement, it was hardly recognized as such at the time. It is true that Collier had a futurist view of Revelation, which was rare to non-existent in his day.

Yeah buddy, didnt exist and what did I personally say?

Lets be honest here brother, Christians like you didnt exist until the 1800s, why? Because no one believed in Dispensationalism, believed in Israel being created again for some End Time Scenario, believed in interpreting Prophecy the way you do until John Nelson Darby formulated it.

Do you read the Bible at all?

Almost everyday...

Have you seen what God himself says about Israel and how awful they are? How is any of what you say relevant in the face of God's word?

Because people such as yourself support them even tho God has clearly casted them out saying this:

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Are any of them saying Blessed is He that came in the name of the Lord? No, so why try and say that this False Nation set up by Antichrist IN SPITE of what Jesus declared, is the real Israel or has anything to do with God?

Just like when they set up the Temple for Sacrifice, will you be supporting them then, even tho Christ Himself is the one who died as a Final Sacrifice for Sin, who Himself destroyed that Temple? That is straight up spitting in Jesus face to start the Sacrifices again...

Everything these people are doing is utterly against God and Christ yet people like you have been convinced by this False Ideology to support them no matter what they do, declaring that God is the one who restored this False Nation. That they are still Gods Chosen when the Bible declares WE who believe in Christ not them are Gods Chosen...

Israel doesn't commit rampant atrocities

Come on man be real, take off your rose tinted goggles and look at them for what they are and do. I can say with no doubts this Nation commits horrible atrocities, it has blood all over its hand. You seem like you would be the one to tell Jesus to reel it in a little when He outright declared that they kill the Prophets and have their blood is on their head..

Israel is an abomination straight up, but let see are you only going to defend Israel and their horrible actions or can you admit that America is an abomination that commits horrible atrocities?

I view Israel and America and all these Nations the same they are Evil and commit mass murder continually. I refuse to justify Israel because of some Eschatology that lies and says they are Gods People or Nation...

how does that change God's word?

Gods Word doesnt change, but the interpretation you have of it is not only incorrect in my view, but it didnt exist until the 1800's just as your own source declared over and over...

You think it is in Gods Word that Israel will be Established for some 1000 yr Reign of Christ on Earth, I say Israel is nothing but a blasphemy to Christ and God and that every Prophecy you attribute to a literal Israel on this Planet is actually Prophecy concerning the New Heaven and New Earth. I say that Jesus Christ is Reigning right now on the Throne, that everything in the Old Testament that you view as Literal is actually nothing but foreshadowing and types. I choose to view Gods Word and Prophecy in the same avenue that Jesus, the Apostles, Paul and the Early Church Fathers...

Ive tried to speak about this with you but it goes no where, just as I doubt you will attempt to continue to speak about all of this now..

I don't know any Christians who blindly support Israel.

Well brother I have watched you for a long time defend everything concerning Israel, and the fact is all those who are believers of Dispensationalism ardently defend Israel. I mean this Forum is a microcosm, everyone here who believes in Dispensationalism supports Israel, some even to a point of trying to threaten others that God will smite or curse them if they dont blindly support them...

It's written in black and white in the Bible which you like to quote that those who curse Israel will be cursed. I'm actually doing you a favor by making you aware of your mistake.

See...

I do know a lot of Christians who seem to blindly hate Israel.

Lol you know that is not the Truth. Let me ask at your Church how many of you support Israel and believe the same exact thing Toki just stated to me?

I will go on a limb and say 90% or more. Lets ask the Forum, Christians only, how many support Israel and think that the Jews are still Gods People? Ill bet 100% of them that believe in Dispensationalism.

I dont hate the Jews themselves but I do hate that they have mislead my brothers and created a Nation that is straight up spitting in the face of Christ and God. I love all people, I want to see them all saved in Christ so they can partake in all the Prophecies that are fulfilled in the New Heaven and New Earth...

Almost everything that passes for common knowledge these days about Israel is a lie.

Is that right? Seems to me that everything is Pro Israel here in the states, dont see much lies about them save IDK all the stuff I am bringing up and you are denying...

If you care about the truth, make an effort to know what it really is.

Come on Thunder, I cared to know the Truth and that is why I went from a Pre Trib die hard Israeli supporter to taking off my Dispensational Glasses and seeing things for how they are, which is Dispensationalism is made up lie, and that Israel is an abomination to God because they are trying in and of themselves to set up a Nation and Temple that God purposefully destroyed because they Rejected the Christ.

I could say the same for you, but you would probably get kicked out of your Church if you reject Dispensationalism...

 

[TokiEl]

Okay. To you, what reason(s) does God give for bringing them back, and its significance if any?

Everybody thought that the Jews were done on day 2 of their independence when the neighbouring Arab armies attacked. Problem solved.Finality.

But but but they survived. Therefore Israel has been a thorn in the side of not only Islam but most of the world for 70 years. They don't know what to do with it. They tried to attack Israel three times but ended up loosing lands so they resorted to terror til this day.

GogMagog players have been practising battle in Syria for years and must soon be ready for a massiv surprise attack against Israel.

And that's what God wants. God wants division. God wants each and everyone to choose and show their true colors.


God is checking your hearts to see where it's at... after 6 million Jews were massacred for being Jews. So if someone can't give the Jews a break after that... they simply have no heart. And that's the cold hard facts.

Also, what does this verse buried in the parable of the Wicked Tenants mean to you?

“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be
taken from you and given to
a nation bearing the fruits of
it." (Matt 21:43)

Do not pick one verse and make a theology out of it. That's not how it works.

 

[TokiEl]

Just to be clear, my position is they weren't cast off forever, like a complete rejection. They simply lost their privilege. That's why in sunday school, we sing that we are all Abraham's kids. Natural descent has no bearing on spirituality as is circumcision of the flesh.

God is a Jew.

If God did not begin to bring them back in the 1880s they would all be dead by now.

 

[Karlysymon]

Everybody thought that the Jews were done on day 2 of their independence when the neighbouring Arab armies attacked. Problem solved.Finality.

But but but they survived. Therefore Israel has been a thorn in the side of not only Islam but most of the world for 70 years. They don't know what to do with it. They tried to attack Israel three times but ended up loosing lands so they resorted to terror til this day.

GogMagog players have been practising battle in Syria for years and must soon be ready for a massiv surprise attack against Israel.

And that's what God wants. God wants division. God wants each and everyone to choose and show their true colors.


God is checking your hearts to see where it's at... after 6 million Jews were massacred for being Jews. So if someone can't give the Jews a break after that... they simply have no heart. And that's the cold hard facts.

None of that is in the bible. I want a solid answer, where God clearly provides a reason for the regathering of the Jews (you can't say: because its their land).
When the 70yr exile ended, which Daniel experienced and also quoted Jeremiah, there were reasons why they had to return. The temple had to be rebuilt and for the rites to continue until Christ would come and officially end the system.
Also, all the prophecies (i.e Micah 5) pointed to Christ being born, living, dying and resurrecting in His home country. Not in exile. Besides, it wouldn't make alot sense for Christ to say 'only a prophet is rejected in his hometown' if His ministry had taken place while the Jews and Himself were in exile.

God never does anything without a reason. If He regathered the Jews, then there is a reason as to why and it is major. So i ask again, what is that reason? Where are the verses? It is the only way to prove that the creation of Israel in 1948 has God's fingerprints all over it and that Darby's prediction, more than 100yrs before, came from God.

All these things are tied together, the creation, the temple, including the treaty with the antichrist, 7yr tribulation, and the rapture. So if we determine that the beginning is false, the sequence is rendered false aswell.

Do not pick one verse and make a theology out of it. That's not how it works.

Then just explain what the entire parable is about.

 

[TokiEl]

None of that is in the bible. I want a solid answer, where God clearly provides a reason for the regathering of the Jews (you can't say: because its their land).

The Final Solution was supposed to be completed 70 years ago.

But those obstinate people still have a place they call home... despite three serious attempts to annihiliate them.

God saved them from utter destruction by bringing them back in the 1880s.


Why would i bother copy pasting the relevant Bible verses for the tenth time ?

 

[Thunderian]

Okay. To you, what reason(s) does God give for bringing them back, and its significance if any?

Also, what does this verse buried in the parable of the Wicked Tenants mean to you?

“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be
taken from you and given to
a nation bearing the fruits of
it." (Matt 21:43)

The Kingdom of God is Jesus Christ. Jesus came to the Jews and they rejected him, so his salvation was taken from the Jews and offered to the gentiles. When the time of the gentiles is complete, the Jews will again have a chance to accept him as their Messiah.

and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son​

 

[Thunderian]

It is, it is being 100% totally and completely honest, just because you dont acknowledge it doesnt mean its not the Truth.

Excuse me? You are the one who needs to accept the truth.

Lets be honest here brother, Christians like you didnt exist until the 1800s, why? Because no one believed in Dispensationalism, believed in Israel being created again for some End Time Scenario, believed in interpreting Prophecy the way you do until John Nelson Darby formulated it.

Christians like me did exist, from the time of Christ and to this day. There are hundreds and hundreds of books and manuscripts available that spell out the exact eschatology that Christians like me believe. None of it started with Darby, and it's ignorant and dishonest for you to keep saying that.

A pre-tribulation Rapture, a dispensational system, and the restoration of Israel in the end times have always been the positions of the church. Your point of view is a relatively modern heresy.

 

[Karlysymon]

The Final Solution was supposed to be completed 70 years ago.

But those obstinate people still have a place they call home... despite three serious attempts to annihiliate them.

God saved them from utter destruction by bringing them back in the 1880s.


Why would i bother copy pasting the relevant Bible verses for the tenth time ?

Iam simply asking a very relevant question on behalf of everyone else. You, Red and Thunderian have failed to give us, even one biblical reason, for their return. ^ that, in the face of maintaining that the regathering is a marker on the eschatological timeline.

While some people claim that the regathering is the only way God would get them to return to Him in repentance, how in the world is it possible that since 70AD the HolySpirit has failed to soften their hearts unto repentance and that a return to the homeland is the only solution? If the softening of the hearts failed while in the diaspora, it sure is to happen while back in the homeland?

Conclusion: There isn't one reason in the Bible that God gives for a regathering of Abraham's blood descendants in a patch of land in the Middle East. Iam sure you now know where that leaves everything else that hangs onto that one event...

 

[phipps]

The Prophecies of Israel Apply to the Followers of Jesus

Where Israel failed, Jesus was victorious. Remember that in the Old Testament, the name Israel first applied to one man, Jacob, to represent his spiritual victory over sin. Even so, in the New Testament, Jesus Christ is the Israel who is victorious over all sin! Literal Israel failed to fulfill their calling and so God looks for a new nation coming out of a new man.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:16

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:26-29

We become part of Jesus and therefore part of spiritual Israel by faith! The promises of literal Israel are now the promises of spiritual Israel. When you come to Jesus, you partake of all His promises. By faith you are incorporated in spiritual Israel. God is not concerned about chromosomes and genes—He is concerned about faith and obedience. When baptized, you accept the death and resurrection of Christ and become true Israel! All New Testament writers understood this. Notice how Peter addressed the Gentiles who now had faith in Jesus as their Saviour.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10

The Bible truths about Israel give us a new focus. The whole focus is Jesus who is the overcomer! By coming to Him, we become part of spiritual Israel and, through His help, gain victory over sin like Jacob did.

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Rom 2:28-29

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Rev 3:12-13

This is a promise to the movement of God and it is a promise to you. May you be an overcomer through the power of Jesus—your Israel!

Many think that today's nation of Israel is also spiritual Israel—the fulfillment of God's promises to ancient Israel. They expect the restoration of Israel in the Middle East. However, along the way, literal Israel gave up its right to be God's missionary nation. After the 70 weeks (490 literal years) that God cut off for them according to the book of Daniel, Literal Israel would never get a second chance again. God gave the nation and its leaders so many opportunities to repent and go back to Him but after the 70 weeks ended they still had not changed. This is going to happen to the world too. God has given us chance after chance to repent and change our ways but one day probation will close once and for all. Revelation 22:11, He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. There will be no second chances for the world ever again just like there will never be a second chance for the nation of Israel again.

God gave Israel a long time in which to change and choose Him just like He is giving the world because He is unwilling to give up one soul that might yet choose eternal life. However, it has to come to an end at some point. Sin must come to an end once and for all.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Karlysymon

Did I mention that I'm quite fond of the PaRDeS way that the Jews would understand scripture? I guess it's a bit different from standard reformed protestant exegesis, which in my view developed in opposition to the Catholic church's attempts to mystify and complicate scripture much it required the intervention of trained priests!

In the PaRDeS view there can be different layers of meaning in scripture that are ALL true. This does not sit easily with the fact that in protestant exegesis, you have the principle expressed in David Cooper’s Golden Rule Of Interpretation: “When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages, and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”

The problem for both Dispensationalism and Covenentslism is that these "macro" questions are not a matter of a interpreting individual verses correctly, but of an overall perspective on the way to read the Bible.

*Btw I know I haven't yet answered your question but I wanted to make a start ...

 

[Karlysymon]

@Karlysymon

Did I mention that I'm quite fond of the PaRDeS way that the Jews would understand scripture? I guess it's a bit different from standard reformed protestant exegesis, which in my view developed in opposition to the Catholic church's attempts to mystify and complicate scripture much it required the intervention of trained priests!

In the PaRDeS view there can be different layers of meaning in scripture that are ALL true. This does not sit easily with the fact that in protestant exegesis, you have the principle expressed in David Cooper’s Golden Rule Of Interpretation: “When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages, and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”

The problem for both Dispensationalism and Covenentslism is that these "macro" questions are not a matter of a interpreting individual verses correctly, but of an overall perspective on the way to read the Bible.

*Btw I know I haven't yet answered your question but I wanted to make a start ...

Iam cool with that. Thank you.
As you are already aware, i hate not having a conclusive answer , you wouldn't want me to die from restless brain syndrome

But try to understand where iam coming from, this is a very important issue, divisive in the microcosm and macrocosm. Salvational issue or not, it really is important to understand/examine because of the implications. As i said in another post, there is only one truth to anything. Only one Israel is mentioned in eschatology; which is it, the physical or the spiritual? And the implication each position entails.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

OK...

As far as I can see it, we all agree on the central importance of the Gospel. Nobody in this discussion has seriously challenged that notion or disagreed with 1 Corinthians 15 3-5. As such we are all brothers and sisters in Jesus who have a different view of how to read and balance the main themes of the Bible.

To start with, does the Bible teaches us about covenants? YES!!!
Dispensations? YES!!!

What if both views are part of a dynamic understanding of scripture that is mediated by the Holy Spirit and reflect something of the sovereignty of God? To think that we have figured out a series of theological compartments that God will neatly fit into gives me issues.

One of the worst for me is that I know first hand that God is alive and active in the world NOW and that genuine healings, miracles and other gifts of the Spirit are in operation today, and not all are to do with hype, Kundalini spirit or people being flaky! As such I am not a cessationist though I know and like many dispensationalists who are.

In the same vein, the sheer unlikelihood of the survival of Israel, with multiple incidents of supernatural intervention during its periods of recent major conflict, along with correlation to scripture in the pattern of their return mean I would find it hard to accept a Covenental, Amil view.

I really don't have all the answers on this one!!! The closest I have felt to it is through an image that has rattled round in my head.

When trying to see distant object better, a pair of high magnification binoculars can help. When you want to see things up close a microscope is a useful tool. I find the microscope of covenentalism helpful in understanding the here and now principles wherein all the promises of God are "yes"and "Amen" in Jesus, whilst the binoculars of Dispensationalism help me understand the macro view of history.

God bless you all.

 

[TokiEl]

Iam simply asking a very relevant question on behalf of everyone else. You, Red and Thunderian have failed to give us, even one biblical reason, for their return. ^ that, in the face of maintaining that the regathering is a marker on the eschatological timeline.

In Ezekiel 38/39 GogMagog attacks Israel. In Ezekiel 37 the Holocaust dry bones are revived. In Ezekiel 36 God says because of His name and reputation He will return Israel to the land He gave to their forefathers.

 

[phipps]

The prophecy of Ezekiel 37 was speaking primarily to his fellow captives among the children of Israel. By this time in history, the 10 tribes of Israel had been so widely scattered among the surrounding nations that they seemed all but lost as a people. The tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi had just been conquered and carried away captive to Babylon. It looked as if their national identity was forever gone and they would never again return to their Promised Land. Hence, one purpose of this vision was to inspire them with hope that God would someday revive them as a nation. The Jews did return to the promised land after being in captivity. After their time that was cut off for them according to Daniel's prophecy, Israel as a nation had made their choice. God knew no matter how much more time He would have given them, they would not change their minds.

This prophecy also speaks about what God will do for spiritual Israel, which is the church today. An obvious theme of the vision is that God can resurrect dry bones-that He can give literal life to that which is dead and inanimate. It is a message that He can revive His people and turn them into a mighty army.

Last of all, it speaks to us individually. No matter how dried up and worthless we may feel, or how dead in trespasses and sins, God can restore us to life through His Word and Spirit.

So should we ignore everything the Bible has said about literal and spiritual Israel? The Bible doesn't work against itself. So if a prophecy or prophecies don't go hand in hand with what Jesus and the apostles preached, then it has a different message.

Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Matt 21:33-45

The vineyard represents Israel and the servants sent to the vineyard are the prophets sent to Israel over and over again. The parable tells us that they are beaten, stoned, and killed. Finally the owner’s son is sent. Jesus refers to Himself here! He indicates through the parable what the people were about to do to Him. Jesus makes it crystal clear that Israel cannot continue as it is. Either the nation was to bear fruit, being a light as was purposed from the very time God called Abraham, or else the kingdom and blessing of God, would be given to another people. Daniel's prophecy tells us exactly what happened and we read about their fulfilment in the New testament.

 

[Karlysymon]

In Ezekiel 38/39 GogMagog attacks Israel. In Ezekiel 37 the Holocaust dry bones are revived. In Ezekiel 36 God says because of His name and reputation He will return Israel to the land He gave to their forefathers.

Who is Gog Magog?

 

[TokiEl]

The prophecy of Ezekiel 37 was speaking primarily to his fellow captives among the children of Israel. By this time in history, the 10 tribes of Israel had been so widely scattered among the surrounding nations that they seemed all but lost as a people. The tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi had just been conquered and carried away captive to Babylon. It looked as if their national identity was forever gone and they would never again return to their Promised Land. Hence, one purpose of this vision was to inspire them with hope that God would someday revive them as a nation. The Jews did return to the promised land after being in captivity. After their time that was cut off for them according to Daniel's prophecy, Israel as a nation had made their choice. God knew no matter how much more time He would have given them, they would not change their minds.

The prophet Jeremiah foretold that they would spend 70 years in Babylon.

That's not what Ezekiel 37 is about. And how can GogMagog in Ezekiel 38 attack Israel... if there is no Israel ?

 

[TokiEl]

Who is Gog Magog?

He is the guard of a confederacy consisting of Elam Torgamah Gomer Libya Ethiopia etc etc that will surprise attack Israel.

 

[elsbet]

Regarding the hour...

Ahh... indeed, choose ye this day--

Back to Yeats, and a nod to @Serveto --
I had to read in context. Chilling, isnt it?

Second Coming
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

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