Red Heifer Birth Paves Way For Renewed Temple Service

Serveto

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Did God promise that any of these other groups would return, or become a nation again in a day? In the end, my own voice is irrelevant to the question and I defer to the words of Gamaliel:-

"And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." —Acts 5:38–39.
The issue, to my mind, or one of the many issues, is not whether there are Jewish-specific prophecies in the Bible, but if the "70" nations in the Bible have lands specifically given to them and if they should follow Israel's example and become ultra-nationalists, operating largely within their own God-ordained borders.
 






Thunderian

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Why not just explain how Ishmaelites could inherit something that wasn't promised to the descendants of Abraham through Ishmael, but to the descendants of Abraham through Isaac?

If I give an inheritance to my descendants through my son, do my descendants through my daughter have a claim to it? Of course not. Do I have to explain why?
 






Thunderian

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The issue, to my mind, or one of the many issues, is not whether there are Jewish-specific prophecies in the Bible, but if the "70" nations in the Bible have lands specifically given to them and if they should follow Israel's example and become ultra-nationalists, operating largely within their own God-ordained borders.
Can you find any passages in the Bible where God gives land to anyone but the nation of Israel?
 






Serveto

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Can you find any passages in the Bible where God gives land to anyone but the nation of Israel?
No. I was wondering -and asking- those of you who are more Biblically literate. At any rate, even if there aren't any such passages, should other nations follow Israel's example and return to their places of origin and conquest? If Israel is to be a Jewish Nation, should Armenia be reserved for Armenians, Germany for the Teutons, France for the Franks and England for the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, etc., or are the "70" nations of the Bible expected to become a deracinated, multicultural polyglot, with help from George Soros and others, and an "open society?"
 






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Serveto

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Corrigendum:
Can you find any passages in the Bible where God gives land to anyone but the nation of Israel?
Correction, yes, it sounds as though here, Mount Seir and the "hill country" are given to Esau. Are other nations given specific, delineated land masses? I ask you and other Bible readers and believers.
 






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Red Sky at Morning

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Addendum:

Correction, yes, it sounds as though here, Mount Seir and the "hill country" is given to Esau. Are other nations given specific land masses? I ask you and other Bible readers and believers.
I think the subtle distinction here is that Esau is not promised by numerous prophets, in the “latter times” to return to said hill country, (while it might have certainly been given at a particular time).
 






Serveto

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I think the subtle distinction here is that Esau is not promised by numerous prophets, in the “latter times” to return to said hill country, (while it might have certainly been given at a particular time).
Understood. But it did seem to answer, in the affirmative, @Thunderian's question as specifically stated: "Can you [Serveto] find any passages in the Bible where God gives land to anyone but the nation of Israel?"
 






Karlysymon

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No, I don't think so, according to prophesy experts this event is prior to the appearance of the anti-christ

Perhaps this video could explain it better

A) The 2009 Brookings Institution paper titled, “Which Path to Persia? Options for a New American Strategy toward Iran,” US policymakers would openly admit:

…it would be far more preferable if the United States could cite an Iranian provocation as justification for the airstrikes before launching them. Clearly, the more outrageous, the more deadly, and the more unprovoked the Iranian action, the better off the United States would be. Of course, it would be very difficult for the United States to goad Iran into such a provocation without the rest of the world recognizing this game, which would then undermine it.
B)
AIPAC and WINEP

C) Tom Neumann, executive director of Jinsa, spelled out the plan in clear, cold terms:
"Jordan will likely survive the coming war with US assistance, so will some of the sheikhdoms. The current Saudi regime will likely not.
"The Iran dissident movement would be helped enormously by the demise of Saddam, and the Palestinians would have to know that the future lies with the West. Syria's Ba'athist dictatorship will likely fall unmourned, liberating Lebanon as well.
"Israel and Turkey, the only current democracies in the region, will find themselves in a far better neighbourhood." Would anyone like to bet on that?
JINSA
_________________
I wonder, when the big and revered names in the Evangelical world talk about this subject, of Gog and Magog, why is the information above never mentioned? Is it highly irrelevant or just inconvenient truth?

As one, who will straight up own to being so hopelessly blind to Gog and Magog happening before mine eyes, I ask you: does this prophecy, by any chance, accommodate geopolitical shenanigans a.k.a falseflags coming from Israel and her staunch “ally”, the USA to induce Armageddon? Or is it just the case of evil, angry Persians, Russians and Muslims descending on sweet and innocent Israel, without any provocation whatsoever? If the latter is the case, what am I to make of the work/position of the numerous Washington think tanks that call for Israeli aggression in any and every possible way?

When our fave televangelists get up to teach on this subject, why is end-time, unprovoked, Israeli aggression so painfully absent from their talks despite available evidence? And this begs the question: are their prophetic interpretations reliable/legit given how much is omitted or are they merely furthering an agenda: for whom and to what end? I’ve never heard anything about this intrigue from Pat Robertson or Hagee or Perry Stone etc. They are always quick to pull up the headlines, dwelling on the Middle East, to emphasize to the audience that the Second Advent is at hand and prophecies are being fullfilled but never give a balanced view of what’s going on/what’s driving the chaos in the ME. Even more, your average Conspiracy theorist-Christian Zionist blogger won’t touch the other side of the equation to ME chaos, is it just too inconvenient or belief-shattering, to address?
the countries who will invade Israel (the nation) for the purpose of plundering and looting Israel's resources (some say for oil as Israel just recently found a very rich oilfield within its territory).
If it is oil, why would the presumed enemies do that? Russia has its own oil, and there’s more in the Arctic. So does Iran and Libya. Maybe China is the exception here.

only Abraham's physical descendants who qualify for the physical promises.

The modern state of Israel obviously doesn't encompass all of that, and I don't expect it to until the Lord returns. Israel will come into her full inheritance only in the perfect kingdom of Jesus Christ.
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind". Isaiah 65:17

Its been said that the Nile never used to empty into the Mediterranean but coursed through West Africa and into the Atlantic. Clearly, the new earth will obviously have no resemblance to the one we currently inhabit. So do you think the physical descendants of Abraham will still likely inherit that exact same spot? From the Nile to the Euphrates?

If they are to come into their full inheritance at the Second Coming, why not just wait until Christ returns, like some sects believe within Judaism, to have all the borders promised to them? Or is this a redux of Jacob attaining the inheritance that was meant for him through deception rather than waiting for the appointed time? And that deception cost him dearly.
 






Vixy

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“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind". Isaiah 65:17

That answered questions for me, right there. Thanks, Karly. <3
 






TokiEl

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As one, who will straight up own to being so hopelessly blind to Gog and Magog happening before mine eyes, I ask you: does this prophecy, by any chance, accommodate geopolitical shenanigans a.k.a falseflags coming from Israel and her staunch “ally”, the USA to induce Armageddon? Or is it just the case of evil, angry Persians, Russians and Muslims descending on sweet and innocent Israel, without any provocation whatsoever? If the latter is the case, what am I to make of the work/position of the numerous Washington think tanks that call for Israeli aggression in any and every possible way?
God said Israel would be back... and the world can't handle that.

The world leaders want nothing to do with God.

And so God's people must be annihilated according to God's enemies.
 






Karlysymon

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I think I actually watched Syriana almost 15 years ago. My memory of it is vague. Probably went over my head but will probably have more meaning now.
I had to watch it 3 times! But not back to back. I mentioned it to you because you'd liked my post, months ago, that contained this video about Director Stephen Gaghan's comments. When i finally watched the film, alot clicked for me, especially after Thunderian posted that map :) .Alot went over my head when i first read up on the plot.

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind". Isaiah 65:17

That answered questions for me, right there. Thanks, Karly. <3
That section of the chapter, verses 17-25, is a beautiful promise from God about the coming age.
 






Thunderian

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Its been said that the Nile never used to empty into the Mediterranean but coursed through West Africa and into the Atlantic. Clearly, the new earth will obviously have no resemblance to the one we currently inhabit. So do you think the physical descendants of Abraham will still likely inherit that exact same spot? From the Nile to the Euphrates?
Israel's inheritance will be on this earth. I can't speak to what it will look like in the next.

If they are to come into their full inheritance at the Second Coming, why not just wait until Christ returns, like some sects believe within Judaism, to have all the borders promised to them? Or is this a redux of Jacob attaining the inheritance that was meant for him through deception rather than waiting for the appointed time? And that deception cost him dearly.
As I've pointed out already in this thread, Israel doesn't need scripture to have a valid claim to the land they currently possess, which is nowhere near the entire land they will have when Jesus Christ returns. How about you let me know when they lay claim to everything else that's been promised to them by God, and we'll continue this conversation then?
 






Axl888

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A) The 2009 Brookings Institution paper titled, “Which Path to Persia? Options for a New American Strategy toward Iran,” US policymakers would openly admit:

…it would be far more preferable if the United States could cite an Iranian provocation as justification for the airstrikes before launching them. Clearly, the more outrageous, the more deadly, and the more unprovoked the Iranian action, the better off the United States would be. Of course, it would be very difficult for the United States to goad Iran into such a provocation without the rest of the world recognizing this game, which would then undermine it.
B)
AIPAC and WINEP

C) Tom Neumann, executive director of Jinsa, spelled out the plan in clear, cold terms:
"Jordan will likely survive the coming war with US assistance, so will some of the sheikhdoms. The current Saudi regime will likely not.
"The Iran dissident movement would be helped enormously by the demise of Saddam, and the Palestinians would have to know that the future lies with the West. Syria's Ba'athist dictatorship will likely fall unmourned, liberating Lebanon as well.
"Israel and Turkey, the only current democracies in the region, will find themselves in a far better neighbourhood." Would anyone like to bet on that?
JINSA
_________________
I wonder, when the big and revered names in the Evangelical world talk about this subject, of Gog and Magog, why is the information above never mentioned? Is it highly irrelevant or just inconvenient truth?

As one, who will straight up own to being so hopelessly blind to Gog and Magog happening before mine eyes, I ask you: does this prophecy, by any chance, accommodate geopolitical shenanigans a.k.a falseflags coming from Israel and her staunch “ally”, the USA to induce Armageddon? Or is it just the case of evil, angry Persians, Russians and Muslims descending on sweet and innocent Israel, without any provocation whatsoever? If the latter is the case, what am I to make of the work/position of the numerous Washington think tanks that call for Israeli aggression in any and every possible way?

When our fave televangelists get up to teach on this subject, why is end-time, unprovoked, Israeli aggression so painfully absent from their talks despite available evidence? And this begs the question: are their prophetic interpretations reliable/legit given how much is omitted or are they merely furthering an agenda: for whom and to what end? I’ve never heard anything about this intrigue from Pat Robertson or Hagee or Perry Stone etc. They are always quick to pull up the headlines, dwelling on the Middle East, to emphasize to the audience that the Second Advent is at hand and prophecies are being fullfilled but never give a balanced view of what’s going on/what’s driving the chaos in the ME. Even more, your average Conspiracy theorist-Christian Zionist blogger won’t touch the other side of the equation to ME chaos, is it just too inconvenient or belief-shattering, to address?

If it is oil, why would the presumed enemies do that? Russia has its own oil, and there’s more in the Arctic. So does Iran and Libya. Maybe China is the exception here.
Some say that in the Ezekiel 38 invasion scenario, no country will help Israel from her invaders and only God alone will help to defeat her enemies (as the Scripture does not mention that Israel will be getting help from other countries except God), and when these things happen, some say that USA might not be superpower anymore, or that there is going to be an administration change that USA is totally anti-Israel, or that USA is also totally committed fighting its own war on the other side of the world (perhaps with China) that she cannot send any help to Israel. Again, this is believe to be a separate event from the Armageddon.

In regard to the possible loot that Gog/Magog and his coalition are after, it might not be oil alone, it could be technology(ies) as Israel is now in the fore front of scientific researches and innovations, or perhaps other important resources we do not know about that Israel may have in that future time line.
 






Karlysymon

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Some say that in the Ezekiel 38 invasion scenario, no country will help Israel from her invaders and only God alone will help to defeat her enemies (as the Scripture does not mention that Israel will be getting help from other countries except God), and when these things happen, some say that USA might not be superpower anymore, or that there is going to be an administration change that USA is totally anti-Israel, or that USA is also totally committed fighting its own war on the other side of the world (perhaps with China) that she cannot send any help to Israel. Again, this is believe to be a separate event from the Armageddon.

In regard to the possible loot that Gog/Magog and his coalition are after, it might not be oil alone, it could be technology(ies) as Israel is now in the fore front of scientific researches and innovations, or perhaps other important resources we do not know about that Israel may have in that future time line.
I jettisoned my Christian Zionism beliefs a long time ago so I can’t possibly remember all the particular (eschatological) details and because of your post, I actually had to go back and re-read Ezekiel 38 & 39 since I hadn’t read those chapters in a good while.

You are right about one thing though…the USA will not remain a super-power in its current form. While the list of countries that are oft-mentioned as being in neocon cross-hairs doesn't bear the US, it should. These wars that US soldiers are waging on behalf of Israel are ruining the country; not just financially but unraveling the social fabric aswell.

"Of course, they got their Pearl Harbor, but contrary to popular opinion I think it’s wrong to assume that the PNAC was designed to open the door to American hegemony. Rather, I think the intention was to cause the opposite – the eventual fall of American geopolitical influence. After all, what happened to the Soviet Union after they bungled into a land war in Afghanistan? Only a long and costly quagmire that ultimately contributed to their economic downfall. This is exactly what is happening to the US today. Are we to believe the elites are completely unaware of this outcome?

To put it another way, perhaps the real goal of efforts toward American hegemony is to sabotage the US image over time, as well as sink it into bankruptcy? But let’s examine the underlying factors a little further…

US involvement in the Middle East thus far has led to nothing but disaster. While total financial costs are often debated, general estimates of the combined costs of US involvement in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and Pakistan are in the area of $5 trillion (a conservative estimate in my opinion). The civilian body count from the Iraq war alone stands at around 208,000 people according to Iraqbodycount.org. US, Israeli and Saudi Arabian covert agencies involved in Libya and Syria trained, funded and armed the same militants that would eventually give rise to ISIS under a program called Timber Sycamore. And, though we continually hear about Trump’s intentions to pull US troops out of the region, tens of thousands of soldiers and private contractors remain in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria to this day."
LINK


Edit:
"Indeed, it appears that a Zionist cabal is interested in a new kind of world war, one that would weaken and fragment all the enemies of Israel for decades to come, putting it in a position to surpass even the United States, who would be ruined by their ruthless military spending (just like the USSR in the 80s) and hated across the globe."
 






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Karlysymon

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Yisrael Ariel oversees a Temple Mount Faithful enactment of rituals for a rebuilt Third Temple

A "holy temple" and a “renewal of the divine service”, aspects of which (according to premill/pretrib), the antichrist is supposed to suspend, which suspension and his presence in the temple apparently accounts for the prophesied “desecration/abomination”. For a christian to believe that the antichrist will initiate a cessation of the “divine service” /sacrifices, the Christian [inorder to remain consistent in his/her beliefs] has to suspend their belief in the book of Hebrews and by extension the NT because the NT revolves around the subject of the ‘Lamb that was slain”. That consistency inevitably leads to Judaism, exactly what Ariel adheres to. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out if premil/pretrib was seeded into Christianity by judaizers.

It was subsequently revealed that the Temple Institute had received a government contract from Israel’s Ministry of Education. That contract paid the Temple Institute to develop a mandatory social studies curriculum that would instill a “longing for the Temple” in children at the kindergarten level and above. Critics argued that the curriculum “could drive students to take violent actions to advance the building of the Third Temple,
While i often visit the site, I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest bit if it came to light that BreakingIsraelNews (link in the OP) was some sort /part of the “educational” arm of the Temple Institute. Every development regarding the temple is written about especially appealing to a particular Christian audience despite the beliefs of the authors. If it is indeed an “educational arm”, it would be evidence for their goals. From the essay: “Etzion had lamented that the plot (to blow up Al Aqsa) had failed only because “the generation was not ready.” ….he called for the building of “a new force that grows very slowly, moving its educational and social activity into a new leadership,”

Apparently, The Temple Institute’s annual budget runs up to $1million. The Israeli government covers about 10%, so I was left wondering at who covers the other 90%. The list of patrons would certainly make for an interesting read since there are other entities interested in seeing the temple erected.
"... due to the occult value or sacredness of the numerous elements surrounding Freemason versions of Solomon’s Temple (on which all Masonic lodges and ceremonial rituals are based), there has been an idea for some time that groups from among the Freemasons and illuminated fraternities intend to rebuild or to participate in the rebuilding of a glorious new Temple in Jerusalem fashioned after the one built by Solomon. Disclosure of this has occasionally reached the public’s ear. The Illustrated London News, August 28, 1909, ran a spectacular supplement detailing this goal. The article was titled, “The Freemason’s Plan to Rebuild Solomon’s Temple at Jerusalem.” Three years later, September 22, 1912, the New York Times published an outline by Freemasons to rebuild the Temple under the title, “Solomon’s Temple: Scheme of Freemasons and Opinions of Jews on Rebuilding.”"
Dr. Thomas Horn

I have also come to the conclusion that Christian Zionists are just being used….a means to an end…and that once these various groups achieve their age-old dream, CZs will as soon be thrown under the bus.
When I landed in Jerusalem, I stepped onto the El-Al jetbridge. There was a billboard. Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein was smiling, joyously, and welcoming the passengers under the banner of his organization, the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. 20 years ago when I first started coming to the Middle East, that billboard would never have been there. His fellow Orthodox rabbis rejected Eckstein’s overt solidarity with these evangelical Christians, whose theology they viewed as anti-semitic.
Source

On another note: in the bible, David wasn’t given the honor of building the temple because he wasn’t a man of peace (he’d been involved in many wars: 1 Chronicles 22:6-10). So it is rather curious that we have rabid terrorists that are at the heart of this movement which begs the question if they are chosen by God to advance “his cause”.

Afew weeks ago, Anne-Marie Slaughter appearing with Tom Friedman (NYT) on Fareed Zakaria’s GPS commented on the State Dept’s decision on the West Bank settlements by saying :we’ve effectively taken the side of Israel’s hard right.
With the first article in mind, it’s at this point that it becomes increasingly obvious that American foreign policy in the Middle East has always had a religious aspect to it and it looks like the religious garb is ever changing.
 






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Thunderian

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Yisrael Ariel oversees a Temple Mount Faithful enactment of rituals for a rebuilt Third Temple

A "holy temple" that and a “renewal of the divine service”, aspects of which (according to premill/pretrib), the antichrist is supposed to suspend which suspension and his presence in the temple apparently accounts for the prophesied “desecration/abomination”. For a christian to believe that the antichrist will initiate a cessation of the “divine service” /sacrifices, the Christian [inorder to remain consistent in his/her beliefs] has to suspend their belief in the book of Hebrews and by extension the NT because the NT revolves around the subject of the ‘Lamb that was slain”. That consistency inevitably leads to Judaism, exactly what Ariel adheres to. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out if premil/pretrib was seeded into Christianity by judaizers.



While i often visit the site, I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest bit if it came to light that BreakingIsraelNews (link in the OP) was some sort /part of the “educational” arm of the Temple Institute. Every development regarding the temple is written about especially appealing to a particular Christian audience despite the beliefs of the authors. If it is indeed an “educational arm”, it would be evidence for their goals. From the essay: “Etzion had lamented that the plot (to blow up Al Aqsa) had failed only because “the generation was not ready.” ….he called for the building of “a new force that grows very slowly, moving its educational and social activity into a new leadership,”

Apparently, The Temple Institute’s annual budget runs up to $1million. The Israeli government covers about 10%, so I was left wondering at who covers the other 90%. The list of patrons would certainly make for an interesting read since there are other entities interested in seeing the temple erected.
"... due to the occult value or sacredness of the numerous elements surrounding Freemason versions of Solomon’s Temple (on which all Masonic lodges and ceremonial rituals are based), there has been an idea for some time that groups from among the Freemasons and illuminated fraternities intend to rebuild or to participate in the rebuilding of a glorious new Temple in Jerusalem fashioned after the one built by Solomon. Disclosure of this has occasionally reached the public’s ear. The Illustrated London News, August 28, 1909, ran a spectacular supplement detailing this goal. The article was titled, “The Freemason’s Plan to Rebuild Solomon’s Temple at Jerusalem.” Three years later, September 22, 1912, the New York Times published an outline by Freemasons to rebuild the Temple under the title, “Solomon’s Temple: Scheme of Freemasons and Opinions of Jews on Rebuilding.”"
Dr. Thomas Horn

I have also come to the conclusion that Christian Zionists are just being used….a means to an end…and that once these various groups achieve their age-old dream, CZs will as soon be thrown under the bus.
When I landed in Jerusalem, I stepped onto the El-Al jetbridge. There was a billboard. Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein was smiling, joyously, and welcoming the passengers under the banner of his organization, the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. 20 years ago when I first started coming to the Middle East, that billboard would never have been there. His fellow Orthodox rabbis rejected Eckstein’s overt solidarity with these evangelical Christians, whose theology they viewed as anti-semitic.

On another note: in the bible, David wasn’t given the honor of building the temple because he wasn’t a man of peace (he’d been involved in many wars: 1 Chronicles 22:6-10). So it is rather curious that we have rabid terrorists that are at the heart of this movement which begs the question if they are chosen by God to advance “his cause”.

Afew weeks ago, Anne-Marie Slaughter appearing with Tom Friedman (NYT) on Fareed Zakaria’s GPS commented on the State Dept’s decision on the West Bank settlements by saying :we’ve effectively taken the side of Israel’s hard right.
With the first article in mind, it’s at this point that it becomes increasingly obvious that American foreign policy in the Middle East has always had a religious aspect to it and it looks like the religious garb is ever changing.
How does the anti-pretrib/Israel-hating (funny how those two are always found together in the wild, isn’t it?) crowd still get this so wrong? It’s not like they haven’t been told.

Here it is again. Write this down somewhere.

The prophesied Third Temple isn’t commanded by God, and will serve no useful spiritual purpose for Israel. It just is.
 






Karlysymon

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How does the anti-pretrib/Israel-hating (funny how those two are always found together in the wild, isn’t it?) crowd still get this so wrong? It’s not like they haven’t been told.

Here it is again. Write this down somewhere.

The prophesied Third Temple isn’t commanded by God, and will serve no useful spiritual purpose for Israel. It just is.
Please let me know which temple the antichrist is supposed to storm into and "put an end to the sacrifice and offering". Because thats prophecy, right?

***just so you know, before i posted this, i had to read a couple posts of yours in another thread on this very subject.
 






Thunderian

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Please let me know which temple the antichrist is supposed to storm into and "put an end to the sacrifice and offering". Because thats prophecy, right?

***just so you know, before i posted this, i had to read a couple posts of yours in another thread on this very subject.
What Temple do you think the antichrist commits the abomination of desolation in, if not the one built by Jews in the last days who still think they’re under the law?
 






Karlysymon

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What Temple do you think the antichrist commits the abomination of desolation in, if not the one built by Jews in the last days who still think they’re under the law?
Why is the cessation of the rituals and his presence in the temple deemed an abomination? You, yourself said
The prophesied Third Temple isn’t commanded by God, and will serve no useful spiritual purpose for Israel. It just is.
So, is the temple holy or not, for the aforementioned to be deemed an abomination? Unless its only an abomination to them since, as you said, God has nothing to do with this. Meaning its only an abomination in their eyes but not in God's eyes, kinda like the antichrist walking into Starbucks...not such a big deal.
 






Lisa

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How does the anti-pretrib/Israel-hating (funny how those two are always found together in the wild, isn’t it?) crowd still get this so wrong? It’s not like they haven’t been told.

Here it is again. Write this down somewhere.

The prophesied Third Temple isn’t commanded by God, and will serve no useful spiritual purpose for Israel. It just is.
I’m anti pre trib but I don’t hate the Jews...guess I’m the exception to the rule ;) Otherwise I agree with you about the temple.
 






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