Red Heifer Birth Paves Way For Renewed Temple Service

Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
3,050
Likes
3,857
@Daciple you're not responding in good faith. All those verses are referring to a literal, earthly kingdom of Jesus Christ. You need to explain why we don't need to take those verses literally.
 





Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
847
Likes
1,763
The scripture I posted. That everyone.
No, you say everyone believes as you believe, but I am saying no you are wrong not everyone believes all of those verses pertain to a literal physical reign of Christ on this planet. I am saying that until the 1800's almost NO ONE thought they pertained to a literal physical reign of Christ on this planet.

This is just facts...

@Daciple you're not responding in good faith. All those verses are referring to a literal, earthly kingdom of Jesus Christ. You need to explain why we don't need to take those verses literally.
I have responded to everything you have written in good faith, you my friend have continually dodged and ignored slews of questions that I have brought up concerning your ideology, lets not get it twisted. Just the post before the last I asked you at least 21 questions, you answered how many? Zero, how about you sir respond in a bit of faith...

As I have stated above, almost no one in History believed that these verses referred to a literal reign of Christ on this planet some thousands of years later, that sir is a fact.

As I showed in the first one in which I address, it isnt speaking of some future reign of Christ on this Earth, it was FULFILLED in Christs Death and Resurrection, just as Paul stated. Do you not agree with Paul?

Now you want me to go and do the same thing with each verse? Why, you didnt even acknowledge the ONE that I did show. Why is it that Paul says that verse was already fulfilled in Christ? Why is it NOT fulfilled if Scripture itself already says it was?
 





Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
3,050
Likes
3,857
The thing is, Daciple, there are a lot of verses that should give you pause. There are so many times that a literal, earthly reign of Jesus Christ is spoken of in the Bible. The prophets, the apostles, the angels, Jesus Christ -- like I said -- everyone.

Are they really all speaking of a spiritual fulfillment of a literal prophecy? Because that's what you say, but what you still have not proven.

I ask you what each of the components of the spiritual kingdom represent, and you have no answer.

I ask you when literal prophecy had ever been fulfilled spiritually, and you have no answer.

I ask you for scriptural foundation -- not just taking verses and saying they're spiritual, but verses where your doctrine is fundamentally determined -- but you have no answer.

Can you find one verse that says there will be no literal reign, and that all those other verses are to be taken spiritually? Because I've shown you dozens that say there will be a literal reign. Your answer to every verse is that they are spiritual, but without a foundation for that view, the only reason we have to take them spiritually and not literally is your say so.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
5,128
Likes
7,748
@Daciple and @Thunderian ...

I have stayed out of this discussion but followed the points each of you have made. I can offer my own perspective which may or may not help.

I think throughout Church history, Christians have believed in the creed of 1 Corinthians 15, but somehow managed to get into debate and confusion on many other issues. Despite being born again, we don't get a download of heavenly wisdom at the alter.

For centuries the Church needed to understand itself in relation to the promises of God and many battles over truths we take for granted took place. In many ways, "Covenentalism Theology" helped the Church understand its relationship to Jesus. On the other hand, despite practicing infant baptism for centuries, I find nobody willing to make a case to say this time honoured church tradition is the way we should go.

I think as time has got towards the end, the relationship of the Church to Israel has become an area of study. I think some dispensationalists also become cessationist and therefore forget their earlier Covenental lessons. I also think some covenentalists forget that God may have a wider plan for the unfolding of history than may have traditionally been imagined and so reject it.

As I read, some passages of the Bible use picture language to illustrate literal future events and we become confused if we take these simply as allegories of the church. Likewise I think if you assume that every piece of imagery must tie into an exact, concrete fulfillment in the future you can get a headache, especially with Zechariah!

Why not be aware of both perspectives and live in the good of that understanding. After all, we do agree about the thing that matters the most...
 





Last edited:
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
847
Likes
1,763
The thing is, Daciple, there are a lot of verses that should give you pause.
You again act like I havent held your perspective, I have written at length as to why YOU are the one who should be at pause, I have given you reasons, and Scriptures, History and everything in between. You have for the most part ignored all of it. I truly dont think you even really read most of what I have written, you blew it all off.

Perhaps go back and read these discussion between us in the mindset and heart you had when you apologized for being a jerk, because prior to that I truly dont think you read with any type of desire to understand anything I wrote...

There are so many times that a literal, earthly reign of Jesus Christ is spoken of in the Bible. The prophets, the apostles, the angels, Jesus Christ -- like I said -- everyone.
And of course as I have stated over and over, as well as taking exceedingly great lengths to point out, most of what you attribute to a literal earthly reign of Christ, isnt how it has been interpreted, by the Apostles, Jesus Christ, and the History of the Church. I am simply reiterating the understanding that basically everyone in the past until JND interpreted Scriptures.

It is YOUR opinion that this is what they are speaking about, but when I go back and show you how the Apostles and Jesus Himself were NOT speaking about a literal Earthly Reign you ignore it.

When I go back and show you how those in the History of the Church interpreted it, which was NOT literal, you choose to ignore it.

You are free to ignore it but you are being dishonest to say that everyone wrote or meant a literal earthly reign of Christ, that is just patently false and I have written essentially multiple essays detailing why...

Are they really all speaking of a spiritual fulfillment of a literal prophecy? Because that's what you say, but what you still have not proven.
Again that is YOUR opinion, I have shown over and over how the Apostles took these verses as being fulfilled in Christ, the Church or the New Heavens and New Earth, I implore you to go back and actually READ what I wrote because we both know you didnt, you immediately ignored it and basically made some snarky remark...

I ask you what each of the components of the spiritual kingdom represent, and you have no answer.
Again Thunder you are wrong I wrote of it in detail YOU DONT READ WHAT I WRITE, you are asking me to go back and re write everything I have already written, here let me requote myself and maybe you will take the time and READ what I have already written instead of saying I dont address what you ask. YOU are the one who refuses to answer ONE of the questions I have asked of you...

Well mountains are seen in the Scriptures as the places where those who lived back then would erect Temples and burn incense and worship their gods at:

2 Chron 21:11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.

The idea being portrayed here is that the Lords House, the dwelling place of God is going to be or is raised above everything else.

Search mountains in Scripture and look at how often it is NOT referring to a literal mountain, all most every time it is written except the ones where its like, I will run out the people from the mountain of this place or that place, it is used metaphorically.

Isaiah 42:11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

Isaiah 44:23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the Lord hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

Isaiah 41:15 Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.

Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

Isaiah 64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

Jeremiah 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jeremiah 13:16 Give glory to the Lord your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.

Jeremiah 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Ezekiel 31:12 And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him.

I could quote dozens more, but in none of these are the mountains literal, they are all used symbolically to represent great height or weight ect. In the same manner the use of mountain in that Prophecy you are quoting is speaking of God being raised above everything else...

The Lords house is where the Lord dwells. I believe I have already shown that in Scripture, the New Jerusalem/ the Jerusalem above is where the Lord dwells.

Also it is fulfilled in the fact that the Lord dwells in us, we are the Temples which of course you know but still are looking for some Temple in Jerusalem to be rebuilt...

The nations are the mass of all people, and all people have now been flowing to the Jerusalem above since Christ came and opened all of us up to it. Do you believe this?
I ask you when literal prophecy had ever been fulfilled spiritually, and you have no answer.
Seriously man, you are being obtuse or lying IDK which it is at this point. The entire thread I have shown how EVERYTHING you have presented a literal is actually NOT literal as you see it, but instead have been fulfilled either in Christ, the Church or the New Heaven and New Earth. I Literally just did this with the last post, but you ignore it why?

According to YOU this is literal correct

Psalm 2:6-9 — David says the Messiah will reign over “the very ends of the earth”from Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
And my response to your literal fulfillment is:

Ps 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Already has been fulfilled! Dont believe me?

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

What does Paul say, does he say this has been fulfilled?

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Paul acknowledges that this has been fulfilled in Christs Death and Resurrection.

You dont like to see it but its done, that has been fulfilled Christ is set already upon the Holy Hill of Zion, the Heathen has already been given to Him, the Earth is His Possession right now, and He is breaking us with an iron rod and dashing us in pieces.

The Gentiles better Kiss the Son lest they He be angry and they perish from the way..
How many more times do you want to me show it?

Go back READ what I write man...

I ask you for scriptural foundation -- not just taking verses and saying they're spiritual, but verses where your doctrine is fundamentally determined -- but you have no answer.
You are so full of it, I have given so many instance of Scriptural foundation, specifically quoting Jesus Himself and Paul and the Apostles in how THEY themselves interpreted Old Testament Prophecies, and it wasnt in the method that YOU interpret them. Yet you have the audacity to say that I have no answer?

Again lets be honest here Thunder until post #285 at the EARLIEST you were not reading with any real intent to understand and more honestly were probably not even reading anything I wrote.

Go back and READ what I wrote, actually read it, with an open mind and intent to learn and understand instead of deride and ignore and I bet everything you say I have no answer for is there. In fact I know it is...

Can you find one verse that says there will be no literal reign, and that all those other verses are to be taken spiritually? Because I've shown you dozens that say there will be a literal reign. Your answer to every verse is that they are spiritual, but without a foundation for that view, the only reason we have to take them spiritually and not literally is your say so.
Again why do I take Scripture as being fulfilled in Christ, the Church and the New Heavens and New Earth? Because I went back and read how THEY interpreted Scriptures, and it wasnt literal as you personally take it.

I have given multiple examples of how THEY interpreted it, which is the FOUNDATION of how I have chosen to interpret the REST of the Old Testament.

An example would be Peter, he says Joel 2 has been fulfilled, so was it a literal fulfillment in the method YOU would say a Prophecy is going to be fulfilled?

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
12 Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the Lord your God?
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O Lord, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
18 Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
19 Yea, the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the Lord will do great things.
22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

So I am quite sure that according to your Theology, 1-27 is going to happen in the Future, you also dont believe that the Day of the Lord had anything to do with Jesus 1st Advent. So now lets look at how Peter interprets this passage, and let us remember that AFTERWARD of 1-27 28-32 happens:

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Did Peter say all of that was literal? Absolutely not, however he does say that Joel 2 ALL OF IT, was confirmed by Jesus Death and Resurrection and then the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is fulfilled at Pentecost. This has already been fulfilled, yet YOU want to place this some 2000 yrs after the fact.

I have shown this in multiple instances and in every single text prior to your copy and paste where I did show 1 easily and quickly that it was already fulfilled and Paul interpreted as fulfilled in Christ and not some literal earthly reign.

So stop with these false accusations and read what I wrote, then we can continue with the discussion faithfully...
 





Last edited:
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
847
Likes
1,763
@Daciple and @Thunderian ...

I have stayed out of this discussion but followed the points each of you have made. I can offer my own perspective which may or may not help.

I think throughout Church history, Christians have believed in the creed of 1 Corinthians 15, but somehow managed to get into debate and confusion on many other issues. Despite being born again, we don't get a download of heavenly wisdom at the alter.

For centuries the Church needed to understand itself in relation to the promises of God and many battles over truths we take for granted took place. In many ways, "Covenentalism Theology" helped the Church understand its relationship to Jesus. On the other hand, despite practicing infant baptism for centuries, I find nobody willing to make a case to say this time honoured church tradition is the way we should go.

I think as time has got towards the end, the relationship of the Church to Israel has become an area of study. I think some dispensationalists also become cessationist and therefore forget their earlier Covenental lessons. I also think some covenentalists forget that God may have a wider plan for the unfolding of history than may have traditionally been imagined and so reject it.

As I read, some passages of the Bible use picture language to illustrate literal future events and we become confused if we take these simply as allegories of the church. Likewise I think if you assume that every piece of imagery must tie into an exact, concrete fulfillment in the future you can get a headache, especially with Zechariah!

Why not be aware of both perspectives and live in the good of that understanding. After all, we do agree about the thing that matters the most...
I appreciate your desire to try and reconcile these opposing viewpoints and I am not fully above saying there can not be some type of merging in understanding. However my point is to show OTHERS the massive errors with in Dispensationalism, why? Because I doubt MOST people who accept it have ever in any meaningful way tried to understand WHY they believe what they believe.

I think it is important that people examine WHAT they believe and WHY they believe it. I had to personally do that ever since I came to this site, and the more and more I examined my long held beliefs I became aware that I was just accepting THAT Eschatology because it was what I was raised in and what almost everyone around me believed. I just accepted that it was THE way to interpret everything and I honestly didnt even understand to any degree or level that OTHER Eschatlogies really existed.

It was Pre Trib Dispensationalism and that was it, nothing else was taught to me as an Early Christian and nothing else was brought up in the Non Denominational Churches I attended. They never ever told me WHY I should believe these things, but just that this is the Truth period.

Then I came on to this site, started truly learning about the Illuminati ideologies, then started learning about the different Eschatologies and began to study independently of what I was told to believe my whole life. I went and did what the Bible said and tested the Spirits and became a Berean on these subjects and as I began to learn WHY I held these beliefs I began to see that these beliefs many of them didnt align to what Scripture stated.

First was Pre Trib Rapture, quite quickly I saw that this is straight up wrong and have completely renounced it all together as bogus. If I were to accept a Millennial Eschatology then I would have to strike that from the list of ever being anything remotely close to the Truth. I also would reject Full Preterism as correct, that is a farce as well.

If I were to argue from a Millenial stance I would say the Pre Wrath Rapture would be the most Scriptural, as Pre Trib is a lie and Post Trib makes the Church endure the Wrath of God which I believe is only for the unbelieving.

As I studied these things I was lead to a Church by God Himself and not of my own desire or choosing, that believed in AMillennialism. When God Himself puts you in a Church in a divine fashion it behooves you to take serious some of their doctrine, and so began my more in depth study of AMillennialism which has been on going for a couple of years now.

So when I started studying this and began to have to acknowldge the reality that Dispensationalism didnt exist AT ALL in the manner you and Thunder and everyone today holds to, prior to JND it put up red flags. Hard for me to think that everyone in existence until him didnt know how to interpret the Bible.

Then I began to study how the Church in the past viewed Prophecy and the more I learn the more I believe they knew how to interpret it, I believe their views to be much more correct than JND.

So I have decided to share with others on this forum what I have learned, the problems I see with Dispensationalism and give them an understanding they may not have been aware of.

I will put money on it Thunder never really studied anything I have mentioned, I can tell simply because of how he derided and was a jerk to me acting like I am some idiot heretic. Guess what, somewhere along the lines something got to him because now I believe he is studying these other ideas. I believe he IS looking into why he believes what he believes, I believe he is looking into JND, I believe he is looking into Church History.

He may never admit it, he may never change his mind and honestly I am not here to change his or anyone elses mind, I am here to bring up ideas, and views to get OTHERS to think for themselves, to learn for themselves and come to their own conclusion even if it is opposite of what I believe...

And you are right he and I and you all believe in what matters, I dont think of anyone as a heretic or anything like that because of their Eschatology, as I have stated over and over, no one knew how Jesus was going to come in His 1st Advent, people thought they did, but they really had no idea.

I believe the same can be said for His 2nd Advent, we can say this or that about how and what He will do when He comes back, we probably are all gonna be wrong in some or all of our beliefs, but who really cares, all that matters is, He IS coming back!!
 





Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
2,731
Likes
3,175
The prophet Muhammad(pbuh) stated that Adam(pbuh) was 30 meters tall. And if you were to look at this logically it makes sense. If you and your wife were the only humans you needed to have been pretty big to survive on this earth and to keep on reproducing because it just simply wouldn't be possible to survive with the current stature we have now in such little numbers.
Muhammad said that Adam was almost 100 feet tall? Hmmm... very interesting.
 





Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Messages
2,963
Likes
5,662
Picture from the church of Chora in Constantinople from the 14th century depicting an early understanding of prophecy.



As you can see, Satan is bound in chains underneath Christ the way he is depicted in Revelation 20 demonstrating that the early understanding of prophecy included the belief that the Millenial kingdom was not a literal 1000 years after the Antichrist is revealed, but the time that spans between the first and second coming of Christ.
 





Todd

Veteran
Joined
Apr 16, 2017
Messages
974
Likes
1,579
Picture from the church of Chora in Constantinople from the 14th century depicting an early understanding of prophecy.



As you can see, Satan is bound in chains underneath Christ the way he is depicted in Revelation 20 demonstrating that the early understanding of prophecy included the belief that the Millenial kingdom was not a literal 1000 years after the Antichrist is revealed, but the time that spans between the first and second coming of Christ.
Oh no it's the white Jesus with the Sun God symbol behind his head! Perpare to be persecuted for even thinking of posting that image, you white paganized Christian! LOL!
 





Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
847
Likes
1,763
So there was a post @Thunderian you wrote that I was in the middle of replying to but was erased. I have some time atm so I have decided to revisit it and answer what you have written. I hope one day you go back to the multitude of posts I have written and begin to answer the many questions I have posed to you sir...

It's just that we disagree on what the kingdom of God is.
Clearly, you say that you read things literally then say the Kingdom of Heaven is actually the literal physical kingdom of Israel on Earth some time in the future. That isnt being intellectually honest my friend, Heaven is Heaven and Earth is Earth. The Kingdom of Heaven is Spiritual and it is the same as the Kingdom of God as I pointed out earlier, Jesus used the 2 synonymously.

You're basing your interpretation of the Bible on one verse. No doctrine of the Bible is based on one verse. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. There will always be at least two or more foundational verses for any doctrine.
Absolutely not, I have based this on many different verses of the Bible and ones that are outright specific. If you dont believe that there is a Kingdom that Jesus Christ is ruling over right now and then gives over to the Father then how do you interpret or make of this verse that outright say that is exactly what He will do?

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This is at the end of all things, Jesus who now is over all things, having been given the Authority over it all by the Father, then delivers up the Kingdom to the Father, and becomes subject unto Him.

How can you tell me THAT isnt what happens when THAT is exactly what Scripture tells us will happen?

I can tell you when I held your belief this was an extremely tough verse for me to try and wrap my head around, it didnt make sense or fall inline with my Theology at the time. Why is Jesus who is God giving the Kingdom to the Father when Jesus is to rule over it all forever cuz Millenial Reign and what not. It didnt and still doesnt make any sense in your Theology.

However in my Theology it makes perfect sense, the Father and Jesus set up an agreement before time existed, where Christ would set out of Heaven and usher in His Kingdom, in which He is continually transforming us who were essentially trapped or bound in the kingdom of Satan, into His Kingdom.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Whose Kingdom have we been translated into again? Oh that is right, the Kingdom of the Son.

And at the end, when Christ has subdued ALL THINGS and destroys Death, by Resurrecting everyone, and casts all the offending into the Lake of Fire, THEN in the New Heaven and New Earth, He hands the perfected Kingdom over to the Father, just as Scripture tells us.

So no I do not base this off of one verse, I base it off of many different verses, including the one that outright tells us that is what is going to happen...

For instance, a foundational verse for the doctrine of a literal, earthy reign of Jesus Christ is Isaiah 2:
I disagree that this has anything to do with a literal earthly reign of Christ. Lets look at Isaiah 2:

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Lets start with last days, to you that is some 1000 yr literal reign of Christ on the Earth, however when are the last days according to Scripture?

How does the Apostle view the term last days? Is it some 2000+ time far removed from them?

Heb 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds


God in the PAST spoke by the Prophets but in THESE last days speaks by the Son, the last days started when Christ came! We have been in the last days since Christ!

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams
:

This Prophecy was fulfilled at Pentecost, Joel said that it would come to pass, it would be fulfilled in the last days, Peter says this has already been fulfilled, therefore we KNOW without a doubt that the last days spoken about in the Old Testament refer to NOW, to when Christ came. THAT is the last days, not some future 2000+ year from them and the last days culminate at Christs coming!

So now that we have established how the Apostles viewed the last days, which is NOW and SINCE Christ came, we can look at Isaiah and see WHEN this is to take place which is?

NOW and SINCE Christ has come, so we know this isnt talking about some future event and has nothing to do with Christ literally on Earth, it is speaking about the Church and Christs Kingdom since His 1st Advent.

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

You think this means people will literally go to the middle east into a mountain into the house of Lord and that is how they will be taught His ways and how to walk in His path. So how does Paul see Jerusalem? Is he looking for a city in the middle east? No sir he doesnt view Jerusalem in that manner as you do:

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Paul isnt ever going to be directing anyone to look at this city in the middle east, that is to have them look at BONDAGE, instead he is telling us to look to Jerusalem which is ABOVE because it is free. Guess where THAT Jerusalem is? It is above all the mountains!

Isaiah says that from Mt Zion shall go forth the Law, you think this means literal Zion in the middle east, but Paul tells us what Mt Zion we belong to:

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

We have come to Mt Zion, the city of the Living God and the Heavenly Jerusalem, THIS is how Paul interprets all of these things you say are talking about this physical city. He in no way EVER is looking at that place in the middle east he is ALWAYS looking at the REAL Mt Zion, the REAL city of the Living God, the REAL Jerusalem which is above, which is in Heaven, which is free, which is SPIRITUAL!!

So when we understand HOW the Apostles interpreted these Scriptures we see clearly that Isaiah 2 is NOT speaking about people literally going up to some literal mountain in literal bondage Jerusalem, but instead Isaiah was Prophesying Christ, who has opened the REAL Mt Zion, the Real city of the Living God, the REAL Jerusalem which is above, to ALL the nations, so that we ALL can flow freely to it.

The same can be said concerning the affect of going to that Mt Zion, in these last days we go to Christ and flow to THAT Jerusalem and He teaches us His ways, this has zero to do with humans walking on this earth to a city and learning about how to do things Gods way...

Another foundational verse is Jeremiah 25:5
I am glad that you happened to mention Jeremiah, I was reading from his book recently and as I was reading over and over I kept thinking of our conversation.

You meant Jer 23:5, but when I was reading it was further along and it says in 33:

Jer 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.
17 For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
19 And the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20 Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;

21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.

You want to put the fulfillment of Jer 23:5 at some future time with Jesus on the Earth, however reading in 33 and knowing BOTH of these are intertwined, we see that it CAN NOT be speaking of Jesus on the Earth some 1000's of years after His coming. Why? Because then God would have broken His Covenant with David!

Since we know God cant and hasnt broken His Covenant with David, we can be assured that THIS Prophecy is fulfilled IN CHRIST, at His 1st Coming. Jesus sits on the REAL Throne of David, which again is where? In the REAL city of God, the Heavenly Jerusalem. Since Christ came He has sat on the Throne of David, and WE are the Priest and Ministers and the Prophecy is fulfilled and not broken.

You insist that the Kingdom of Heaven is heavenly in nature, so maybe you can tell me what the Bible means when it says that Jesus Christ will reign on earth.
As I have shown NEITHER of your proof texts mean a literal reign of Christ on Earth and instead are BOTH fulfilled in Christ at His 1st coming...

It is actually pretty amazing how Christ has fulfilled all of this and what it means for us now, it will change how you view your relationship with Jesus NOW as opposed to thinking you need to wait till you die and He comes back for any of this to actually mean something to you...

You're taking verses and applying them to your theory, but there is nothing in those verses that go against what I'm saying, and there is nothing foundational in any of them.

However, there are many verses in the Bible -- whole books, even -- that are at terrible odds with your interpretation.
What is foundational to you then? Only verses that you believe support your ideology?

When we can see clearly there is a distinction between the Kingdom of the Father and the Kingdom of the Son, that is foundational. When texts literally say the Son HANDS OVER His Kingdom to the Father, that is foundational. I really dont know how much more blatant or foundational texts can be.

And no there is nothing you have brought up that goes against what I have shown and every time you try, I have shown exactly how what you are saying is not interpreted in the manner you suggest. You have yet to show how anything I am saying is wrong, you just declare it and then give your own proof texts, which I again show arent really saying what you want them to say..

Everyone else looks at this as a prophecy of the rebirth of Israel, which literally became a nation overnight in 1948.
Who is everyone else? The tiny % of Christians throughout Church History that believe as you do?

Obviously this is meant to be a picture of the peace of Jerusalem flowing like mother's milk to the nations of the earth. Read verses 10 and 11 in context with verse 12.
I read it in context of the whole Chapter and have given the interpretation that has been held for centuries, how long have people been interpreting it as you do?

Since 1948?

1830?

Show me prior to that if more than a handful of people IF that, viewed it as you do...

I agree, except it's figuratively flowing from literal Jerusalem.
You must mean in the future because it definitely isnt now. So what do we do now?

Do you just reject everything I have quoted of Paul that speaks of the REAL Jerusalem and Mt Zion? You know the one that you are going up to according to HIM?

Is the second coming of Jesus Christ literal, in your opinion, or figurative?
Come now, you know the answer, the Bible is specific, Jesus is coming back AMEN!

It is getting late so I will continue when I have a chance...
 





Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Messages
2
Likes
0
I believe that you were on the right track when that the red heifer was a foreshadow of Christ. This is but another type/anti-type that we see repeatedly throughout the Old Testament that pointed to Christ. However, I differ with you in regards to the idea Jesus stated that another temple would need to be built. The main context of the Olivet Discourse was in regards to the Herod’s temple being destroyed in 70 AD. When they had left the temple the disciples, filled with pride of how magnificent the temple was, brought its attention to Christ. He then said that it would soon be thrown down without one stone being left one upon another. They replied by asking when will this take place and what be the signs of the end of the age and of His return.

The disciples were familiar with the fact that Jesus said that He would destroy this temple a rebuild it in three days. They still didn’t understand that it was His body that He was speaking of and that the kingdom of God was spiritual and not physical. It is quite reasonable to say that they were expecting Jesus to leave, return, destroy the temple an establish an earthly kingdom in three days, but this was not the case.

When Jesus said “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet”, He was referring to Daniel 9:24-27 when Gabriel told Daniel that the second temple would be destroyed. When you read Luke 21, Luke chose to use the phrase “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies” instead of “abomination of desolation”. Luke was writing to a Greek reader so the prophecies of Daniel may not have been understood like the gospels of Matthew and Mark, which were written to Jewish readers. This abomination of desolation should be correlated with the Jerusalem surrounded by armies event, which was 70 AD.

In regards to Ezekiel 41-45, there was never any command that this temple should be built. In fact, this vision was given to Ezekiel prior to the Jewish exiles returning from Babylonian exile. If this temple were supposed to have been built, then it would have been built at that time. The purpose for Ezekiel’s temple vision is actually given:

Ezekiel 43: 10 “As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan. 11 If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them. 12 This is the law of the house: its entire area on the top of the mountain all around shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

Another slight issue with a "red heifer" is that the heifer that Israel has in their possession today was genetically engineered. The ancient red heifer, just like Christ, was supplied by God.

Peace!
 





Joined
Jun 29, 2017
Messages
960
Likes
1,723
Besides, as its often claimed that the Nephilim gene survived the Flood, it only stands to reason that there would be carriers, not only in Christ's time but ours aswell. Unfortunately, i've never seen nor heard of Palestinians in the 10-13feet+ range of height. Clearly, the NBA would have caught on to it and already sent scouts ;)
Nba has scouting program called giants of Africa :)
 





Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
506
Likes
816
Picture from the church of Chora in Constantinople from the 14th century depicting an early understanding of prophecy.



As you can see, Satan is bound in chains underneath Christ the way he is depicted in Revelation 20 demonstrating that the early understanding of prophecy included the belief that the Millenial kingdom was not a literal 1000 years after the Antichrist is revealed, but the time that spans between the first and second coming of Christ.
The harrowing of hell prophetic.. thats new..
 





Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Messages
2,963
Likes
5,662
The harrowing of hell prophetic.. thats new..
Right, the resurrection of Christ or, in other words the harrowing of hell, depicting a connection between Christ’s resurrection and Satan being chained, which is spoken of in revelation 20. Therefore, the understanding was that this was fulfilled with the resurrection of Christ.