Red Heifer Birth Paves Way For Renewed Temple Service

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And when it gets taken away and given to the actual Israelites (the God fearing ones) what will your excuse be then?
Islam has tried three times to take Israel by force... but had to resort to terror til this day.

It's possible that Jews will give autonomy to Arabs in the West Bank Gaza and even the Old City just to give peace another chance... but Islam is not interested in peace until it is the only sociopolitical religion in the world.

So why give in... why not just shoot it out ?
 





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We use the context of the entire Bible to discern. It's not that hard.
Apparently for you it is...

There are two kingdoms
I agree but completely disagree with you interpretation. There are 2 Kingdoms, the Kingdom of the Son which is what we are all in now which is Spiritual and the Kingdom of the Father in which the Son takes His Perfected Kingdom and hands it over to the Father in the New Heaven and New Earth.

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

his is why you guys screw up Israel's inheritance and standing so badly.
Yeah your incorrect interpretation is probably why you guys do screw up Israel's inheritance and standing so badly...

Instead of using one good example and verse and moving on to the next point, you go on and on and on and on. I don't want to invest that much time in reading your posts, so I generally don't.
Yes lets complain about someone being thorough in their points, the mark of this ignorant generation. So lets reiterate, I dont ever plan on changing your mind, I already can tell you are closed minded on this, only an act of God will get you to examine your long held beliefs.

You are a platform to bring about other ideas to those who actually care to learn and because of that reason, I make sure to be thorough in my explanations. What person who is actually wanting to learn something will take one verse and immediately be like oh yeah everything is clear now. No one that is intelligent, therefore I provide as much detail as possible to give others, who unlike you are open to learning and understanding a different perspective from the one they hold, the most information I can to help them understand the position.

TLDR, dont care if you read it or not, I dont write for you, you are closed minded, I write for people who want to learn a different perspective.

The other kingdom of the two is the Kingdom of Heaven, also known as the Millennial Kingdom. This the earthly, literal kingdom of Jesus Christ.
No, that is not at all what that means. You want to take things literally, then you say Heaven means Earthly talk about confusion. Heaven means Heaven.

Matt 19;23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God
.

The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are synonymous as Jesus shows here. We know that the Kingdom of God is within us, as Jesus stated in Luke 17:21-22. The Kingdom of Heaven is within us, its not some Earthly Riegn of Christ 2000 yrs removed from His 1st Advent.

Christians will rule and reign with Jesus Christ, doing his work and teaching the nations.
We do that now.

The nations will be bound to obey certain parts of the law, including sacrifices and observing feasts, and representatives will attend the Temple for these things.
Yeah that makes no sense if you take time to think about it. Jesus literally came to do away with all of this, everything in the Old Covenant has been abolished by Christs work on the Cross. However your ideology teaches that Jesus really didnt nail this stuff to the cross, that the Old Covenant hasnt actually been fulfilled, that Jesus work on the Cross didnt accomplish what Scripture states it did. Your ideology teaches that the New Covenant isnt what is Eternal, that the New Covenant disappears, it literally teaches that everything Jesus did on the Cross means nothing in the end because the Old Covenant is going to be Re Established.

However Scripture in zero places tell this as what is or will happen. Scripture tells us that the Old Covenant has been fulfilled, and passed away, and that the New Covenant in which all humanity is under is the Eternal Covenant and that it will not be like the Old Covenant. Your ideology destroys all of these Scriptures...

Do you believe that we will have rank in a spiritual kingdom? To what point? Who would we be governing? The disciples' question doesn't make sense in that context.
I believe that in the New Heaven and Earth there will be rank, and basically everything you apply to this Earthly Reign is actually to be understood in the New Heaven and Earth, which your ideology basically ignores..

1 Cor 6;2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


So in your ideology are the angels down here on Earth? Or does this Scripture not pertain to your Earthly Reign of Jesus?

This in my view is pertaining to the End Judgement and that we will Reign over the Angels in the New Heaven and New Earth.

Also considering there is rank in Heaven right now with the Spiritual Beings that are among God why wouldnt there be rank in the Kingdom of Christ at the moment? The Church establishes a type of rank systemt doesnt it? Leaders, Bishops, Pastors, Teachers ect. Do you not think any of this is in affect?

You don't know there's a difference between the two kingdoms, even though scripture speaks of each distinctly, so you just make everything spiritual, which is not only heretical, but totally boring.
I know the difference between the Fathers Kingdom (which you never mention) and the Sons, but I reject the ideology that there is a Spiritual Kingdom and then some projected semi perfect not really Jesus on this Earth fake Kingdom that you are talking about. To reject that is not heretical, because as we have established which you have yet to produce anything at all in defense or rebuttal of, 99% of the Church throughout History didnt believe it.

The onus is on you to show that more than 2 or 3 or a handful of people in the past 1800 years since the foundation of the Church believed as you do. If you can not (which you cant because it didnt exist) produce this evidence, then your claims of heretic are even more illegitimate and uncalled for than they already are. You dont see me calling you a heretic because of your misunderstanding do you? But keep with the name calling if you would like, I know you are wrong and thats ok that you are...

I think you have forgotten the original point, which was the Jesus didn't read those things. In the progression of the passage, everything after what he reads will be fulfilled completely after the day of vengeance, which is still on the way.
I actually understand the point, just because Jesus didnt read the entire Chapter doesnt mean that He wasnt stating that He was fulfilling it all. Or that it will be fulfilled some thousands of years in the future. I know this will be too much for you to read because you dont like when people are throughout in their explanation, but I am going to show others how your understanding and saying that because Jesus stopped meant everything else was in the future is wrong...

It is clear that Jesus purposefully would recite PART of a Scripture with the intention that ALL of it pertains to Him. Let us look at the most clear example and the validation that that is exactly what his hearers understood.

Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

Here Jesus only is recorded as saying the very 1st verse of Psalm 22, however the audience clearly understand that He is applying the entire Psalm to Himself. The most clear way we know they understood He was applying it to Himself is that they ran and gave him a spounge filled with vinegar to give Him something to drink:

Ps 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

So since we can turn to Scripture and see that Jesus only quoted one verse and still was intending to apply it ALL to Himself, which we all know the entire Psalm is concerning and was fulfilled on the Cross and by Jesus, we can also know that just because Jesus didnt read the entire Chapter of Isaiah doesnt mean He was saying nothing past the part He read was being fulfilled by Him.

The fact is even tho you refuse to admit it, you know everything I wrote concerning that Scripture applies to Jesus NOW and you know that Jesus has already done all of that for you right NOW.

Jesus fulfilled that entire chapter, there is no need to look to the future for Him to fulfill it, it is finished...
 





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I agree but completely disagree with you interpretation. There are 2 Kingdoms, the Kingdom of the Son which is what we are all in now which is Spiritual and the Kingdom of the Father in which the Son takes His Perfected Kingdom and hands it over to the Father in the New Heaven and New Earth.

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Can you expound a bit more on the kingdom of the Son and the kingdom of the Father? I'd love to see some more scripture on this.

No, that is not at all what that means. You want to take things literally, then you say Heaven means Earthly talk about confusion. Heaven means Heaven.
You are so precious sometimes.

Matt 19;23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God
.

The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are synonymous as Jesus shows here. We know that the Kingdom of God is within us, as Jesus stated in Luke 17:21-22. The Kingdom of Heaven is within us, its not some Earthly Riegn of Christ 2000 yrs removed from His 1st Advent.
It is possible that the Kingdom of Heaven can be literal and the Kingdom of God spiritual and that verse still make sense.

We do that now.
We rule and reign with Jesus Christ? On earth? Right now?

We're doing a terrible job, then. The world sucks.

Yeah that makes no sense if you take time to think about it. Jesus literally came to do away with all of this, everything in the Old Covenant has been abolished by Christs work on the Cross. However your ideology teaches that Jesus really didnt nail this stuff to the cross, that the Old Covenant hasnt actually been fulfilled, that Jesus work on the Cross didnt accomplish what Scripture states it did. Your ideology teaches that the New Covenant isnt what is Eternal, that the New Covenant disappears, it literally teaches that everything Jesus did on the Cross means nothing in the end because the Old Covenant is going to be Re Established.
Oh, brother. Sacrifices never took away sin. And not all sacrifices were for sin. It doesn't besmirch the completed work of Jesus one bit to perform them in his millennial kingdom. Paul sacrificed, remember?

However Scripture in zero places tell this as what is or will happen. Scripture tells us that the Old Covenant has been fulfilled, and passed away, and that the New Covenant in which all humanity is under is the Eternal Covenant and that it will not be like the Old Covenant. Your ideology destroys all of these Scriptures...
Sure. If there is no millennial kingdom as I have described, then what is Zechariah talking about here in chapter 14?

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

I believe that in the New Heaven and Earth there will be rank, and basically everything you apply to this Earthly Reign is actually to be understood in the New Heaven and Earth, which your ideology basically ignores..

1 Cor 6;2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


So in your ideology are the angels down here on Earth? Or does this Scripture not pertain to your Earthly Reign of Jesus?

This in my view is pertaining to the End Judgement and that we will Reign over the Angels in the New Heaven and New Earth.
Wait. You believe that the new heaven and the new earth are literal? Why are they literal and the 1000-year earthly reign of Jesus Christ not? Just to forestall any confusion, I believe the millennial reign and the new heaven and new earth are both literal. But you think one is, and one isn't. How come?

Also considering there is rank in Heaven right now with the Spiritual Beings that are among God why wouldnt there be rank in the Kingdom of Christ at the moment? The Church establishes a type of rank systemt doesnt it? Leaders, Bishops, Pastors, Teachers ect. Do you not think any of this is in affect?
No, I don't. I know Christian leaders who have no place being in any kind of spiritual authority. That is a real stretch.
 





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Can you expound a bit more on the kingdom of the Son and the kingdom of the Father? I'd love to see some more scripture on this.
Just remember you asked for me to expand on this, please dont complain that I have honored your request.

The Kingdom of the Father and the Son is the terminology to refer to the Kingdom of God that is ushered in, in 2 stages, separated by the Parousia of our Lord. The Kingdom of the Son, the Present Era of Proclamation and the Kingdom of the Father, not yet, the Future World to come.

Jesus Himself relates to the dual Kingdoms. As we have already seen Jesus Himself says the Kingdom is here now and presently, He Himself ushered it in when He came.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (or amidst you)

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

So we know without a doubt that Jesus has already ushered in the Kingdom of God.

Jesus also contrasts these 2 Kingdoms as seen below in these Scriptures:

Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage
:

Paul also clearly denotes the 2 different Kingdoms:

Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come
:

1 Tim 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

So we can see from Scripture that there are 2 distinct ages or worlds, there are not 3 or 4 but 2 and only 2 spoken about in Scripture. These 2 ages comprise of the Kingdom of God which is related to us as the Kingdom of the Son the Present Age and the Kingdom of the Father the Coming Age or World. This isnt to say that the Father isnt active in the Kingdom of the Son or that the Son isnt active in the Kingdom of the Father. Again one final Scripture that shows the 2 Kingdoms:

Matt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

And as we see here the Kingdom of the Father immediately follows the Son, there isnt a some space of 1000 yrs between the Sons Kingdom, which is NOW and the Fathers Kingdom.

This Parable, the Parable of the Wheat and Tares explain how the Kingdom of the Son operates and what ends the Kingdom of the Son and ushers in the Kingdom of the Father, again all of this is an understanding of the ONE Kingdom of God that is ushered in, in 2 stages. To further explain the position using the Parable of the Wheat and Tares lets examine somethings we notice in those verses:

Matt 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Jesus interprets this for us:

Matt 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So according to these Scriptures, the Children of the Kingdom which is NOW are those who accept the Gospel, you and me and everyone Born Again. During this time there are also children of the wicked, the devil and his kingdom. We will all grow together until the Parousia of our Lord aka the 2nd Coming at which time all those who are of the devil and his kingdom are taken out and thrown into the furnace of fire (the Judgement) and then comes the Kingdom of the Father, where as it is shown Jesus hands over His Kingdom to the Father so God can be all and all.

1 Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

There is no 1000 yrs between the Parousia and the world to come, aka the New Heaven and the New Earth. There is no literal reign of Christ on this Earth, its this Present Age, then the 2nd Coming, then the Judgement, then the Kingdom is handed over to the Father so God is all and all...

I can expand further and more deeply if needed, but I think that ought to suffice for a base understanding of the 2 stages of the Kingdom of God...

You are so precious sometimes.
Aww thanks broski! You're adorable too!

It is possible that the Kingdom of Heaven can be literal and the Kingdom of God spiritual and that verse still make sense.
I mean sure if you want to force a preconceived ideology into it, I mean that is what you are doing, but if we take the text for what it states and more importantly what Jesus was meaning, it is obvious that He is using the two sayings concerning the Kingdom as being synonymous.

Oh, brother. Sacrifices never took away sin. And not all sacrifices were for sin. It doesn't besmirch the completed work of Jesus one bit to perform them in his millennial kingdom. Paul sacrificed, remember?
Did I say those Sacrifices took away Sin? No, I am saying to restart the Sacrifices for Sin, which if you are honest in your literal reading of the Old Testament that you attribute to this 1000 yr Reign of Christ on Earth, specifically says that there will be Sacrifices for Sin, are a spitting in the face of Christ and His Sacrifice for ALL Sin...

An example of course would be:

Ez 43:18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord God; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering
.

I could of course give more examples but that should do. Is this not what your ideology teaches is going to be happening in this supposed 1000 yrs Reign of Christ on Earth? Isnt this what your ideology says the Temple is going to be and what is going to be going on there?

To have anyone ever again Sacrifice for Sin is to blaspheme the Work of Christ, as tho His Sacrifice wasnt complete, which again is against Scripture. Once and FOR ALL period. Now that is Heretical, that is to destroy Salvation, that is a Salvation dependent doctrine if there ever was one...

Any Theology you bring to this verse will immediately require you to admit that Sin will be rampant because there would be a need for a Sacrifice of it, which of course is going to cause you to go back on your point you tried to make previously when I brought this to your attention:

How can you be so ignorant of scripture? Jesus Christ will reign for a thousand years on a curse-free earth.
So much for a curse-free Earth that needs Sacrifices for Sin...

Sure. If there is no millennial kingdom as I have described, then what is Zechariah talking about here in chapter 14?

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
First and foremost, here nor anywhere else is anyone mentioning a temporary 1000 yr Reign of Christ. Anyone who reads the Text directly and refuses to import a millennial presupposition into it will see that the Prophet is speaking of the Conversion of the Eschatological Israel, the Last Battle, the Day of the Lord, and the World and Worship of the (eternal) Age to Come. To look at the whole of the Prophecies it would be rediculous that he would write of things in such a cosmic scale to have them end in a weak 1000 yr Reign of Christ on Earth as opposed to an Ultimate Glory in a Perfected Kingdom of God Eternally.

Another problem with reading this literally as you would is if we do then we have to take other passages literally. Do you really believe that the Nations of the Earth are going to come up against Israel riding Donkeys and Horses?

Zec 12;4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

Or that they will literally bring cattle with them to serve as food?

Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

And again do you really believe that the Old Testament Law will be Re Instituted? Because that is what you have to accept to read the text as literal. That not just some but ALL of the Old Testament is going to be Resurrected and Established again. As I have mentioned previously this throws everything Christ did into disarray.

So the proper way to interpret this is not to view it as literal Israel but how Jesus and the Apostles viewed this type of Scripture which I have been telling you about for 5 pages now, which is to relate it to the Church, the Kingdom of the Son and the Final Kingdom of the Father.

When we look at all these Scriptures the same way they did, then we get a more clear understanding of how and what the Future of the Church holds and the end of the World and the coming of the ONLY Kingdom past this one, the New Heaven and New Earth.

I could give a break down of all of it but lets just skip ahead to the one verse you brought up, how is it to be understood?

Again this is a snap shot of the Future World not under some Millennial Reign of Christ but a Typology of how the New Heaven and New Earth will be, again not literal but revealed in Old Testament imagery to convey an Picture of how things will be in the ETERNAL State.

So this Feast of Booths that you think is literal is not, it is Typology and an Allegory, so what exactly was the Feast of Booths about? It is the Harvest Feast, that commemorates Israel being lead from Egypt thru the Wilderness where they camped in Booths, and finally deliverance into the Promise Land. If we relate this to the Church and the World to come and use Jesus own words what do we find?

Matt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


So the Harvest is the End of the World, those who have been saved at the Harvest are those in the Church who have been Born Again, who have been lead safely by Christ thru the Wilderness and out of Egypt and now into the Real Promise Land, the New Heaven and New Earth. We will FOREVER "go up" to Worship thru Christ unto our King.

We all were at one time enemies of the Spiritual Jerusalem, and we were all Rescued by Christ, we are all then going to be Harvested and celebrate this Rescue FOREVER worshiping God. THAT is how we are to look upon these Scriptures, again I can go thru all the verses and practically the whole Book showing how all of this relates to understanding the 2 Stages of the One Kingdom of God.

Wait. You believe that the new heaven and the new earth are literal? Why are they literal and the 1000-year earthly reign of Jesus Christ not?
Because absolutely no where in all of Scripture is there anywhere that speaks explicitly of a literal 1000 yr earthly reign of Jesus Christ, and basically NO ONE in History thought this way until the 1800's. This 1000 yr earthly reign of Christ is concocted by trying to string random verses together and making them fit when in reality they dont. One sec it literal then its not, then it is, then its not, its all confusion when we start reading the Scripture WITHOUT that preconceived ideology forced on to them...

However the New Earth and the New Heaven are EXPLICITLY spoken of over and over and over and over in Scripture. We are NOT to look to some weak 1000 yr reign of Christ on this Sinful Earth, no we are to look to the New Heaven and New Earth.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The Promise of Him is the New Heaven and New Earth not that weak Earthly Reign you are looking toward, and if you can point me to a Scripture that say THAT but replaces it with a direct and explicty Jesus will Reign on Earth for 1000 yrs then we can talk, until then I look to the Promise Peter tells me...

I can quote many more direct verses that speak of God creating a New Heaven and New Earth, I can find zero that say I will have my Son Reign on Earth literally for exactly 1000 yrs...

We rule and reign with Jesus Christ? On earth? Right now?

We're doing a terrible job, then. The world sucks.
You dont believe Scripture?

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I mean I can quote many more but I dont want to overwhelm you with too many Scriptures but that should be enough for you to accept what Jesus has done for you, He has made you a King and a Priest in His Kingdom right now!! Maybe if we all took that a bit more seriously then maybe the World wouldnt suck as much?

No, I don't. I know Christian leaders who have no place being in any kind of spiritual authority. That is a real stretch.
Ok well again Scripture disagrees with you, clearly it defines people as having more Authority over one another and thus more Responsibility. Elders, Deacons, Pastors ect. Also calls for an Authoritative Structure in the Home, Christ, Husband, Wife, Children. Its ok if you dont want to accept what Scriptures say concerning this to win an online argument, I understand...
 





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Just remember you asked for me to expand on this, please dont complain that I have honored your request.
Never. :)

The Kingdom of the Father and the Son is the terminology to refer to the Kingdom of God that is ushered in, in 2 stages, separated by the Parousia of our Lord. The Kingdom of the Son, the Present Era of Proclamation and the Kingdom of the Father, not yet, the Future World to come.

Jesus Himself relates to the dual Kingdoms. As we have already seen Jesus Himself says the Kingdom is here now and presently, He Himself ushered it in when He came.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (or amidst you)

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

So we know without a doubt that Jesus has already ushered in the Kingdom of God.
At what point did Jesus usher in the Kingdom of God/the Son? Am I correct that they are one and the same?

Jesus also contrasts these 2 Kingdoms as seen below in these Scriptures:

Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage
:

Paul also clearly denotes the 2 different Kingdoms:

Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

1 Tim 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
I don't find the phrases "kingdom of the father" or "kingdom of the son" anywhere in the Bible. I'm interested in some firm scriptural evidence that there are two successive kingdoms, one right now, where Jesus Christ is king, and one to come -- post-parousia -- where the Father takes over. I know you have some verses that you think speak of these kingdoms, but is there any prophecy related to the concept, or any verses that develop the idea? What's the purpose of the two different kingdoms?

So we can see from Scripture that there are 2 distinct ages or worlds, there are not 3 or 4 but 2 and only 2 spoken about in Scripture. These 2 ages comprise of the Kingdom of God which is related to us as the Kingdom of the Son the Present Age and the Kingdom of the Father the Coming Age or World. This isnt to say that the Father isnt active in the Kingdom of the Son or that the Son isnt active in the Kingdom of the Father. Again one final Scripture that shows the 2 Kingdoms:

Matt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
I love how you're a dispensationalist, but don't even see it. Even if there are only two different ages, that means there are dispensations.

And as we see here the Kingdom of the Father immediately follows the Son, there isnt a some space of 1000 yrs between the Sons Kingdom, which is NOW and the Fathers Kingdom.
I have to wonder what you make of Revelation 20.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

BTW, the point when this happens is just after the second advent of Jesus Christ, after the defeat of every evil force and power on earth at Armageddon.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

First mention of a thousand years, as the length of time that Satan will be bound and unable to influence humankind.
.
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Second mention of a millennium, again as the length of Satan's imprisonment.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Here we have the third reference to a thousand year period, but this time it's the length of time that believers will reign with Jesus Christ on an earth that has been renewed and where Satan has no influence. This calls to mind the world that Adam and Eve lived in. Theirs was even nicer, I think, but the millennial earth won't have Satan. This verse contains a clear reference to a reign of Jesus Christ that will last a thousand years. The only reason you would have to want to deny this is that it means the Kingdom of the Son would have come to an end about a thousand years ago. I am very interested in how you deal with this verse.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Fourth reference to a thousand years, relating to the aforementioned reign of Jesus Christ and his saints. We know now that there is a definite period of a thousand years when Satan will be bound and believers will reign with Jesus Christ.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I don't see how anyone can still insist there is no thousand year reign of Jesus Christ. This is the fifth reference to a period of a thousand years within the first six verses of Revelation 20, and the second direct reference to a reign of Jesus Christ that lasts a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

During the literal millennial reign of Jesus Christ, all the promises made to Israel will be literally fulfilled, and Jesus Christ will rule the world from Jerusalem. Kingdoms have laws, and so will the kingdom of Jesus Christ. Resurrected believers in Jesus Christ will act as administrators, judges and teachers. The earth will have been filled again with good things, there will be no pests, diseases or famine. It will be a very easy world to live in, and because Satan is bound and the perfect government of Jesus Christ is in effect, people will have nothing to do but enjoy themselves. The Bible tells us that during this time, sacrifices and festivals will be observed by the nations, and there will be consequences for those nations who disobey, just as there are consequences for subjects in any kingdom who don't obey the king. Sin will still be an option, of course, since the inhabitants of the earth will still be human, and there will be a final rebellion when Satan is set free at the end of the millennial age.

This Parable, the Parable of the Wheat and Tares explain how the Kingdom of the Son operates and what ends the Kingdom of the Son and ushers in the Kingdom of the Father, again all of this is an understanding of the ONE Kingdom of God that is ushered in, in 2 stages. To further explain the position using the Parable of the Wheat and Tares lets examine somethings we notice in those verses:

Matt 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Jesus interprets this for us:

Matt 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So according to these Scriptures, the Children of the Kingdom which is NOW are those who accept the Gospel, you and me and everyone Born Again. During this time there are also children of the wicked, the devil and his kingdom. We will all grow together until the Parousia of our Lord aka the 2nd Coming at which time all those who are of the devil and his kingdom are taken out and thrown into the furnace of fire (the Judgement) and then comes the Kingdom of the Father, where as it is shown Jesus hands over His Kingdom to the Father so God can be all and all.
Can you see how your interpretation runs into some problems in Revelation 20? It says that the reign of Jesus Christ on earth will last a thousand years, and that Satan will be bound. Your kingdom of the Son is running 2000 years and counting, and if Satan was bound at the beginning of it, he seems to have escaped.

Did I say those Sacrifices took away Sin? No, I am saying to restart the Sacrifices for Sin, which if you are honest in your literal reading of the Old Testament that you attribute to this 1000 yr Reign of Christ on Earth, specifically says that there will be Sacrifices for Sin, are a spitting in the face of Christ and His Sacrifice for ALL Sin...

An example of course would be:

Ez 43:18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord God; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering
.

I could of course give more examples but that should do. Is this not what your ideology teaches is going to be happening in this supposed 1000 yrs Reign of Christ on Earth? Isnt this what your ideology says the Temple is going to be and what is going to be going on there?

To have anyone ever again Sacrifice for Sin is to blaspheme the Work of Christ, as tho His Sacrifice wasnt complete, which again is against Scripture. Once and FOR ALL period. Now that is Heretical, that is to destroy Salvation, that is a Salvation dependent doctrine if there ever was one...

Any Theology you bring to this verse will immediately require you to admit that Sin will be rampant because there would be a need for a Sacrifice of it, which of course is going to cause you to go back on your point you tried to make previously when I brought this to your attention:
The earth will be curse-free -- not sin free. Do you think that sin was brought by the curse? No, the curse was brought by sin.

Genesis 3
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

During the millennium, there will still be sin. I'm a little surprised that you can say that you used to believe the same as I do but you need these things explained to you. Maybe you were never clear on the details to begin with.

I can't respond to the rest of your post. I just don't have that much time. If we keep things short, I think we can cover a lot of ground, but if we're long-winded, I won't be able to reply.

How about you just deal with Revelation 20? How do you make that passage work with your view of scripture?
 





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At what point did Jesus usher in the Kingdom of God/the Son? Am I correct that they are one and the same?
When He left Heaven and came to the Earth, when He died on the Cross, when He Resurrected, when He ascended to the Father, when He sent the Holy Spirit.

Do you not agree with Christ in the Scripture I quoted?

Matt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

I don't find the phrases "kingdom of the father" or "kingdom of the son" anywhere in the Bible.
I dont find the phrase Trinity in the Bible either, nor do I find the phrase Rapture (I know the drawing from the Greek Word but that actual phrase isnt in the Text), nor do I find the phrase Pre Tribulation, nor many other phrases that we use to denote Theological Ideologies.

I also dont find the phrase dispensationalism in the sense in which your ideology is wrapped around in the Text either. The 3 uses of the word Dispensation has little to no relation to the ideology that you hold, all of that is terminology we use to express what we see in Scripture, I hope you can agree with this...

With that said here you go:

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The Son has a Kingdom, the Father has a Kingdom, right there in Scripture...

I'm interested in some firm scriptural evidence that there are two successive kingdoms, one right now, where Jesus Christ is king, and one to come -- post-parousia -- where the Father takes over. I know you have some verses that you think speak of these kingdoms, but is there any prophecy related to the concept, or any verses that develop the idea?
I have listed many different verses that explicitly show this concept. I really dont know how it can get any more blatant than, Jesus hands over the Kingdom to the Father so God can be all in all, is that not direct enough?

1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This idea comes directly from Scripture, it is explicit how things go in these verses. Christ was first, first to Resurrect, then comes the General Resurrection with us first at His coming, followed by everyone else (which is a different topic but we can speak on all of this as well if you would like) then immediately comes the end aka the Judgement when Death is fully overcome, all those who havent believed are thrown into the Lake of Fire, and then when that is finished, Jesus hands over the Kingdom to the Father.

What other verses do you need tho? Again IDK how much more clear it can be that Jesus has a Kingdom and then hands it to the Father than these Scriptures.

I also gave you clear Scripture where both Paul and Christ Himself speak of the 2 ages, this age and the one to come, or as written in the KJV this world and the one to come. There is a clear distinction between them, and there are only 2 spoken of, not 3 or 4 or 7 but 2. These are related to us as the Kingdom of the Son, Jesus the Present Age/World and the Kingdom of the Father, the Age to Come or the New Heaven and New Earth.

Here is part of an article that summarizes it yet again, you can read the whole article at the link:

The impact of this two-age eschatological framework upon the question of millennialism becomes very apparent when we examine how these terms are used throughout the New Testament. Whenever the term “this age” is used it is always in reference to things temporal, things destined to perish. Consider the following things predicated by the biblical writers of “this age.” The end of the age will be preceded by signs (Matthew 24:3), and Christ himself will be with us until this age ends (Matthew 28:20). There are material rewards in this age (Luke 18:30), and the people of this age marry and are given in marriage (Luke 20:34). According to Mark, the present age is an age of homes, fields and families (Mark 10:30). Paul, on the other hand, puts this in ethical terms. We are not to be conformed to the pattern of this age (Romans 12:2), for this present age is evil (Galatians 1:4). The wisdom of this age is the godless speculation of the philosophers (1 Corinthians 1:20), and is characterized by rulers who do not know the truth (2 Corinthians 2:6-8). In fact, says Paul, Satan himself is the “god” of this age (2 Corinthians 4:4) for the ways of this age are evil (Ephesians 2:2). Paul exhorts those who are rich in this age not to put their hopes in their riches for the age to come (1 Timothy 6:17), for we are to live godly lives now as we await the age to come (Titus 2:12).

In every case, the qualities assigned by the biblical writers to “this age” are always temporal in nature and represent the fallen world and its sinful inhabitants awaiting the judgment to come at our Lord’s return. This becomes clear when we see “this age” as the biblical writers intend—an age which stands in stark contrast to the eschatological “age to come.”
http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace....-as-interpretive-grid-amillennialism-101.html

When it come to Prophecy, over and over in Scripture it speaks of a temporal aspect then an Eternal aspect. Much of the Prophecy you regard as having to do with this Millennial state of Christ on Earth is actually concerning an Eternal aspect that doesnt really align with your literal reading of Scriptures.

Do you consider Is 66 being about a literal Jerusalem on this literal Earth?

See I believe that Is 66 speaks of the 1st Advent of Christ and His Work on the Cross and then it speaks of His coming and then the New Heaven and New Earth. It shows the Kingdom of the Son and then the Kingdom of the Father, again these are terminologies to relate to the 2 eras or ages or worlds as spoken of in the Bible.

Here is the Kingdom of the Son, or the Present Era:

Is 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

God asks can a Nation be born at once? The answer is yes, in Christ a Nation was born at once, a Kingdom given and brought forth.

Is 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory
.

You somehow will take this as being about literal Jerusalem in the Middle East, I take this as the Spiritual Jerusalem that Paul speak about, and that we shall be glad with her, rejoice with her, suck and be satisfied from what she offers and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. None of this has anything to do with a literal Jerusalem, it is an Allegory of our current Reign with Jesus.

Is 66:12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem
.

More Symbolism, or Allegories that describe what flows forth from the Spiritual Jerusalem and thru Christ.

Is 66:15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many
.

This is the 2nd Coming the Parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Then comes the New Heavens and the New Earth, which as we know from clear Scripture as stated above, when everything is fulfilled Christ hands the Kingdom to the Father.

As for the next 2 verses, which you read literally but cant possibly be literal unless you think that Jesus will physically be on this Earth FOREVER, they are speaking again in Old Testament symbolism of the Eternal aspect of the New Heaven and New Earth. Verse 23 simply reiterates ETERNAL, and 24 speaks of those thrown in the Lake of Fire will be Eternally Punished.

So you ask for Prophecy that builds or relates to this idea, my answer is almost all Prophecy that has anything to do with the Future, relates and shows these 2 different eras, worlds or Kingdoms. They all speak of the current Era of Christ, a 2nd Coming, and a Future State that is Eternal. Almost everything you attribute to a Millennial Reign of Christ, I say is actually speaking of one of these 2 aspects, eras, worlds or Kingdoms. Pick one and I more than likely it will relate to what I am saying...

I love how you're a dispensationalist, but don't even see it. Even if there are only two different ages, that means there are dispensations.
Stop. You and I both know that the understanding of Dispensationalism that you hold too is nothing close to anything I am relating. I get it Thunder, you want to say that because I am relating to a sense of God dealing with people in different methods at different times to you that means different Dispensations. However we both know that is NOT what it means to be a Dispensationalist in the sense that you and all the rest of the Dispensationalist on this board and in the world truly relate to Scriptures. It is a very specific and detailed method of interpretation of Scriptures that has been Systematically given to you and you parrot back to everyone else.

I have tried in the past to discuss this, and the problems with it, would you like to move the conversation to that as well? I mean I am happy too but you are the one wanting to narrow in the discussion. If you really want to start talking about Dispensationalism as a Systematic Theology and how nothing I am saying relates in anyway to that, or if you would like me to start bringing up all the flaws in that System of Theology, let me know we can go down that road.

However to me it seems that we are speaking more on the details atm than the complete and total overarching Systematic Theology that you hold to.

I have to wonder what you make of Revelation 20.
I can tell you its nothing like what you say it is that is for sure and I will detail it a bit in my next post. For brevity sakes because I dont have time I am not going to break down every aspect of your interpretation right now nor can I go fully into my own understanding, but I will honor you request and show part of how I view this when I finish up tomorrow. or the next day...

Can you see how your interpretation runs into some problems in Revelation 20? It says that the reign of Jesus Christ on earth will last a thousand years, and that Satan will be bound. Your kingdom of the Son is running 2000 years and counting, and if Satan was bound at the beginning of it, he seems to have escaped.
No I dont, because as we keep going back and forth on, this 1000 yrs isnt to be read literally. Thats the whole problem with your perspective, and it was something I had to come to terms with myself. The entire book of Revelation is straight up Symbolic, it is ALL to be taken Spiritually, Allegorically, Eschatologically, and NOT literally. The Book is jammed packed from beginning to end with Symbolism but you want to take it literally, and as I have been trying to point out, when we start taking this stuff literally it become absurd. Why? Because we have to maintain a literal reading throughout or else you are being dishonest in your approach to the Scriptures.

During the millennium, there will still be sin. I'm a little surprised that you can say that you used to believe the same as I do but you need these things explained to you. Maybe you were never clear on the details to begin with.
I dont need anything explained by you to me concerning Dispensationalism, what I am expressing is the fact that I disagree with how it is interpreted. This idea that there is Sin and a need to Sacrifice for it, no matter what other stuff you want to bring up about a Curse or no Curse is absolutely an abomination to the finished Work of Christ. There will never ever ever be a need for any Sacrifice for Sin EVER, otherwise you are clearly saying Jesus Sacrifice was NOT enough, that it was NOT once and for all.

I dont see how you can rationalize this away, either Jesus Sacrifice was ONCE and for ALL, or it wasnt. If is ONCE and for ALL then never again should there be a need for a Sacrifice of Sin. In your ideology in order to maintain it you must rationalize away this massive huge gaping problem, which again I personally believe THAT is Heretical. Why? Because it interferes with Salvation.

IDC what you or anyone else thinks about Israel. You believe its gonna be reinstated and Jesus is going to Reign there, ok fine, I think that is totally wrong but if that is what you believe go for it, it doesnt affect Salvation.

However to start teaching that Sacrifices are not only going to be done, but needed at anytime ever, for Sin, is to blaspheme the finished Work of Christ. It diminishes the Cross to almost nothing honestly. It wholly affect Salvation and the plan God created for ALL men to abide by for Salvation thru out ALL of time. (See I wholly dont agree with your Dispensationalism, its much much bigger than talking about 2 eras or Covenants ect).

This is one massive reason why I have rejected your Theology, it doesnt add up on things that are actually important, like how are men Saved...

How about you just deal with Revelation 20? How do you make that passage work with your view of scripture?
I will detail it in my next post.

What I will say is that I appreciate your tone in this post, it has been different than all of your previous ones. I hope we can continue a dialogue that doesnt include so much demeaning tones, calls of Heretics, or condescending remarks. I will respond more so later...
 





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When He left Heaven and came to the Earth, when He died on the Cross, when He Resurrected, when He ascended to the Father, when He sent the Holy Spirit.

Do you not agree with Christ in the Scripture I quoted?

Matt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
It's just that we disagree on what the kingdom of God is.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The Son has a Kingdom, the Father has a Kingdom, right there in Scripture...
You're basing your interpretation of the Bible on one verse. No doctrine of the Bible is based on one verse. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. There will always be at least two or more foundational verses for any doctrine.

For instance, a foundational verse for the doctrine of a literal, earthy reign of Jesus Christ is Isaiah 2:

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Another foundational verse is Jeremiah 25:5

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

You insist that the Kingdom of Heaven is heavenly in nature, so maybe you can tell me what the Bible means when it says that Jesus Christ will reign on earth.

I have listed many different verses that explicitly show this concept. I really dont know how it can get any more blatant than, Jesus hands over the Kingdom to the Father so God can be all in all, is that not direct enough?

1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This idea comes directly from Scripture, it is explicit how things go in these verses. Christ was first, first to Resurrect, then comes the General Resurrection with us first at His coming, followed by everyone else (which is a different topic but we can speak on all of this as well if you would like) then immediately comes the end aka the Judgement when Death is fully overcome, all those who havent believed are thrown into the Lake of Fire, and then when that is finished, Jesus hands over the Kingdom to the Father.

What other verses do you need tho? Again IDK how much more clear it can be that Jesus has a Kingdom and then hands it to the Father than these Scriptures.
You're taking verses and applying them to your theory, but there is nothing in those verses that go against what I'm saying, and there is nothing foundational in any of them.

However, there are many verses in the Bible -- whole books, even -- that are at terrible odds with your interpretation.

I also gave you clear Scripture where both Paul and Christ Himself speak of the 2 ages, this age and the one to come, or as written in the KJV this world and the one to come. There is a clear distinction between them, and there are only 2 spoken of, not 3 or 4 or 7 but 2. These are related to us as the Kingdom of the Son, Jesus the Present Age/World and the Kingdom of the Father, the Age to Come or the New Heaven and New Earth.

Here is part of an article that summarizes it yet again, you can read the whole article at the link:

http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace....-as-interpretive-grid-amillennialism-101.html

When it come to Prophecy, over and over in Scripture it speaks of a temporal aspect then an Eternal aspect. Much of the Prophecy you regard as having to do with this Millennial state of Christ on Earth is actually concerning an Eternal aspect that doesnt really align with your literal reading of Scriptures.
So the two ages are the kingdom of the Son, followed by the kingdom of the Father, and the kingdom of the Son begins when Jesus leaves Heaven.

What was the time period before Jesus left Heaven? Was that not an age?

Do you consider Is 66 being about a literal Jerusalem on this literal Earth?
Obviously, I do.

See I believe that Is 66 speaks of the 1st Advent of Christ and His Work on the Cross and then it speaks of His coming and then the New Heaven and New Earth. It shows the Kingdom of the Son and then the Kingdom of the Father, again these are terminologies to relate to the 2 eras or ages or worlds as spoken of in the Bible.

Here is the Kingdom of the Son, or the Present Era:

Is 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

God asks can a Nation be born at once? The answer is yes, in Christ a Nation was born at once, a Kingdom given and brought forth.
Everyone else looks at this as a prophecy of the rebirth of Israel, which literally became a nation overnight in 1948.

Is 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory
.

You somehow will take this as being about literal Jerusalem in the Middle East, I take this as the Spiritual Jerusalem that Paul speak about, and that we shall be glad with her, rejoice with her, suck and be satisfied from what she offers and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. None of this has anything to do with a literal Jerusalem, it is an Allegory of our current Reign with Jesus.
Obviously this is meant to be a picture of the peace of Jerusalem flowing like mother's milk to the nations of the earth. Read verses 10 and 11 in context with verse 12.

Is 66:12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem
.

More Symbolism, or Allegories that describe what flows forth from the Spiritual Jerusalem and thru Christ.
I agree, except it's figuratively flowing from literal Jerusalem.

Is 66:15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many
.

This is the 2nd Coming the Parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Is the second coming of Jesus Christ literal, in your opinion, or figurative? :)

Is 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain
.

Then comes the New Heavens and the New Earth, which as we know from clear Scripture as stated above, when everything is fulfilled Christ hands the Kingdom to the Father.
That verse doesn't say that the next chronological thing is the new heavens and new earth. It just refers to them.

As for the next 2 verses, which you read literally but cant possibly be literal unless you think that Jesus will physically be on this Earth FOREVER, they are speaking again in Old Testament symbolism of the Eternal aspect of the New Heaven and New Earth. Verse 23 simply reiterates ETERNAL, and 24 speaks of those thrown in the Lake of Fire will be Eternally Punished.
Well, let's look at those last two verses, and I'll show you that they are literal indeed.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

This is an affirmation of what I've been saying. That all nations of the earth will come to Jerusalem to sacrifice, to observe feasts and holy days, and to worship King Jesus on his throne. Other references to this earthly reign are found in Psalms, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Micah, Zephaniah, Haggai and Zechariah. And that's just the Old Testament.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The lake of fire will be a literal place on earth during Jesus Christ's reign, and the people who come to Jerusalem will be able to go and see those that have been cast into it. At the end of the millennium, everything evil will be cast into the lake of fire, and then wiped away, making way for the new heaven and new earth.

So you ask for Prophecy that builds or relates to this idea, my answer is almost all Prophecy that has anything to do with the Future, relates and shows these 2 different eras, worlds or Kingdoms. They all speak of the current Era of Christ, a 2nd Coming, and a Future State that is Eternal. Almost everything you attribute to a Millennial Reign of Christ, I say is actually speaking of one of these 2 aspects, eras, worlds or Kingdoms. Pick one and I more than likely it will relate to what I am saying...
Like I said, you are just taking verses and applying them to your theory, and spiritualizing anything that doesn't fit.

Stop. You and I both know that the understanding of Dispensationalism that you hold too is nothing close to anything I am relating. I get it Thunder, you want to say that because I am relating to a sense of God dealing with people in different methods at different times to you that means different Dispensations. However we both know that is NOT what it means to be a Dispensationalist in the sense that you and all the rest of the Dispensationalist on this board and in the world truly relate to Scriptures. It is a very specific and detailed method of interpretation of Scriptures that has been Systematically given to you and you parrot back to everyone else.

I have tried in the past to discuss this, and the problems with it, would you like to move the conversation to that as well? I mean I am happy too but you are the one wanting to narrow in the discussion. If you really want to start talking about Dispensationalism as a Systematic Theology and how nothing I am saying relates in anyway to that, or if you would like me to start bringing up all the flaws in that System of Theology, let me know we can go down that road.

However to me it seems that we are speaking more on the details atm than the complete and total overarching Systematic Theology that you hold to.
You've already identified three different ages, so why stop there? I'm sure if you put your mind to it, you can make it a perfect seven. (Now why is that number significant?)

[T]his 1000 yrs isnt to be read literally.
Why not?

The entire book of Revelation is straight up Symbolic, it is ALL to be taken Spiritually, Allegorically, Eschatologically, and NOT literally.
Why do you take Isaiah 66:15 and 16 literally, but not Revelation 19:11-16? Are they not the same event?

The Book is jammed packed from beginning to end with Symbolism but you want to take it literally, and as I have been trying to point out, when we start taking this stuff literally it become absurd. Why? Because we have to maintain a literal reading throughout or else you are being dishonest in your approach to the Scriptures.
You say we have to maintain a literal reading throughout Revelation, but you don't have to do the same for Isaiah 66? What gives you special dispensation to have literal and figurative things in the same passage?

I dont need anything explained by you to me concerning Dispensationalism, what I am expressing is the fact that I disagree with how it is interpreted. This idea that there is Sin and a need to Sacrifice for it, no matter what other stuff you want to bring up about a Curse or no Curse is absolutely an abomination to the finished Work of Christ. There will never ever ever be a need for any Sacrifice for Sin EVER, otherwise you are clearly saying Jesus Sacrifice was NOT enough, that it was NOT once and for all.

I dont see how you can rationalize this away, either Jesus Sacrifice was ONCE and for ALL, or it wasnt. If is ONCE and for ALL then never again should there be a need for a Sacrifice of Sin. In your ideology in order to maintain it you must rationalize away this massive huge gaping problem, which again I personally believe THAT is Heretical. Why? Because it interferes with Salvation.

IDC what you or anyone else thinks about Israel. You believe its gonna be reinstated and Jesus is going to Reign there, ok fine, I think that is totally wrong but if that is what you believe go for it, it doesnt affect Salvation.

However to start teaching that Sacrifices are not only going to be done, but needed at anytime ever, for Sin, is to blaspheme the finished Work of Christ. It diminishes the Cross to almost nothing honestly. It wholly affect Salvation and the plan God created for ALL men to abide by for Salvation thru out ALL of time. (See I wholly dont agree with your Dispensationalism, its much much bigger than talking about 2 eras or Covenants ect).

This is one massive reason why I have rejected your Theology, it doesnt add up on things that are actually important, like how are men Saved...
There is a lot of scripture that speaks of sacrifices that are undertaken during the reign of Jesus Christ. Whether they take place during the kingdom of the Son in a spiritual way, as you say, or in the millennial kingdom, you can't deny that these verses exist. Saying, "Oh, they're just spiritual," gives the impression that you believe God filled the Bible with a bunch of useless verses and weird symbolism.
 





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I have to wonder what you make of Revelation 20.
Ok so lets begin with this, you take the 1000 years literally, you think it is a literal span of time. In order to do this you must be literal in your reading of the rest of the passage, otherwise you are being inconsistent in your approach to Scripture.

And when we read this as literal then things become absurd, so lets see do you really want to read this as literal?

Do you really believe that an Angel is going to physically come and literally grab Satan who is a Dragon, and literally have a key with a literal chain and literally chain him into a literal bottomless pit?

When you read this literally it is absurd. Just like saying the War consists of people whose number are as the sands of the sea. Is that literal?

Of course we dont read any of this as literal, its all symbolic like the entire rest of the Book is. So concerning the 100 years, do you consider all the other times that 1000 is used in Scripture as being literal or are they always symbolic?

Lev 26;And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.

This is an exact number they will put to flight, or is it symbolic of a great number?

Deut 1:10 The Lord your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.
11 (The Lord God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as ye are, and bless you, as he hath promised you!)


Is this an exact number or is it symbolic for a great number?

Deut 32:30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?

Symbolic or Literal?

Judges 15:15 And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith.

Did he slew a literal 1000 men exactly or is this symbolism for a large number?

1 Sam 18;And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands.

Did Saul kill thousands and David ten thousands? Or again is this symbolism for David killing more than Saul?

Ps 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

Literal or Figurative?

Over and over we can do this, every single time the thousand is mentioned saved specific numberings like in Numbers ect, it is always to express an idea of a great number. In every instance of Prophecy thousand only is meaning either a great number or a great span of time.

That is what the 1000 years symbolizes, its NOT a literal 1000 yrs, it is speaking of a great span of time. So clearly how we approach the Scripture changes our interpretation drastically.

BTW, the point when this happens is just after the second advent of Jesus Christ, after the defeat of every evil force and power on earth at Armageddon.
So lets start going over this and I will give you the perspective I believe is more correct than your literal interpretation.

You think that this happens just after the 2nd Advent I disagree, I believe that this is concerning His 1st Advent.

The binding of Satan was done at Christs Death and Resurrection. Prior to Christs Death and Resurrection Satan had complete and total influence over all of the Nations unchecked. They had zero ability to discern the Truth as none of them were within Israel to come to truly know God, however since Christ has come Satan has lost his influence over the Nations in that now all the World can come to know God thru Christ.

Can this be supported in Scripture apart from Revelations? Yes it can:

2 Thes 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way
.

For others that cant quite discern what those verses are saying:

2 Thes 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way
.

So this verse clearly tells us that Satan (the person being spoken about in Context) is being restrained, and once he is no longer unrestrained then he will be revealed and Christ will destroy him AT HIS COMING. Again a one time event not 2 or 3 times, but ONCE and that is the End of the World...

Jesus states this Himself:

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me
.

Jesus says NOW, at his time, not 2000-3000 yrs later will the prince of the world start getting cast out, but at His time. His Death and Resurrection bound Satan, it is why you and I and any Gentile can come to Christ and God.

The 1000 years again are Symbolic of the entire Church Era or the Era of Proclamation, the Era of the Son, whatever title you want to place on this current Era we are now in.

Here we have the third reference to a thousand year period, but this time it's the length of time that believers will reign with Jesus Christ on an earth that has been renewed and where Satan has no influence.
So here again is a problem with your literal reading, is this to be read literally as ONLY those in this supposed Tribulation that get to Reign with Christ? If we read it literally what does it say again?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

If we take this literally then it means that ONLY those who are beheaded for the witness of Jesus and ONLY during the Tribulation, that didnt receive the Mark of the beast or worshipped the beast will be with Christ. If we read this literally then YOU wont be there, why? Because according to your Theology you are going to be Raptured out of the Tribulation, you wont be there to have your head cut off or resist the Mark or the Beast.

Of course you want to inject things into these text that arent there, like trying to read yourself into the text even tho you are not going to be beheaded or resist the Beast during the Tribulation. You also keep injecting Christ Reigning as a Literal King on the Literal Earth with Israel restored even tho the text no where states any of this at all.

All it says is those who are beheaded or die for the testimony of God who dont worship the Beast or get the Mark reign with Christ, nothing you say is actually in there.

So reading it literally is out, even for you because then you have to deny yourself being in the Millennium, however when we read it Symbolically or Spiritually we can understand what it is saying.

It is seen in a 2 fold manner specifically because of the following verses concerning the 1st Ressurrection which I have spoken about in other Threads or in the past.

1) Anyone who is Born Again ( Resists the Beast and his Mark) that dies during the Era of Proclamation or the Kingdom of the Son will be Reigning with Christ in Heaven until the 1000 yrs end aka the Symbolic Length of His Kingdom until His 2nd Coming.

2) Anyone who is Born Again also has taken part of the 1st Resurrection, and thus as I have mentioned multiple times now Reigns on this Earth with Him and in Heaven right now. Therefore we are Reigning Spiritually with Him in His Kingdom now and also when we die in Heaven until He comes back which ends the 1000 yrs...

Again if we take this literally then ONLY those who die during the Tribulation (in your Theology) will have taken part in the 1st Resurrection and of course that means me and you can not say we have no place in the 2nd Death. That of course is garbage, the 1st Resurrection is actually Christ and all of us who are Born Again take part in THAT Resurrection and whomever takes place in THAT Resurrection which is everyone Born Again have no fear of the 2nd Death.

Another perspective I saw that was incorrect that I couldnt get past that has caused me to reject your Theology and supposed literal reading of the Scriptures...

I don't see how anyone can still insist there is no thousand year reign of Jesus Christ. This is the fifth reference to a period of a thousand years within the first six verses of Revelation 20, and the second direct reference to a reign of Jesus Christ that lasts a thousand years.
Again it starts at how you originally approach the Scriptures, the 1000 yrs isnt literal just like pretty much none of the rest of it is literal and how when we decide to stay consistent with our interpretation we see that like basically every other Scripture that relates to Prophecy and numbers, they are not literal but Symbolic...

During the literal millennial reign of Jesus Christ, all the promises made to Israel will be literally fulfilled, and Jesus Christ will rule the world from Jerusalem. Kingdoms have laws, and so will the kingdom of Jesus Christ. Resurrected believers in Jesus Christ will act as administrators, judges and teachers. The earth will have been filled again with good things, there will be no pests, diseases or famine. It will be a very easy world to live in, and because Satan is bound and the perfect government of Jesus Christ is in effect, people will have nothing to do but enjoy themselves. The Bible tells us that during this time, sacrifices and festivals will be observed by the nations, and there will be consequences for those nations who disobey, just as there are consequences for subjects in any kingdom who don't obey the king. Sin will still be an option, of course, since the inhabitants of the earth will still be human, and there will be a final rebellion when Satan is set free at the end of the millennial age.
Yeah I mean none of that is there, but you have imposed it into the Text, so I disagree with pretty much everything you are saying.

Just as Scripture tells us apart from Revelation in the New Testament as I have already quoted, Satan is bound now, for a little while, until he is let go right before Christ comes back and he will go on to fully attack the Church. Everything is about the Church but you keep thinking its about some physical land in the Middle East. Satan is bound from totally destroying the Church, because if he could he would. When he is let loose thats when he is going to attack the Church, but Christ will come back and save us and destroy him all at once.

Not this 3 or 4 different Returns, not this 3 or 4 different wars , its a one time event, at the end of the age, like Scripture clearly tells us over and over...
 





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@Daciple I'm going to speed things up with just a comment or two.

God can be very precise about periods of time, so your examples don't mean what you think they do. For instance, the lengths of time regarding Israel are always definite. The famine that brought them to Egypt was seven years, their bondage there was 400. They were in the desert for 40 years. Their Babylonian captivity was prophesied to be seventy years, the fact of which led Daniel to seek God and which resulted in even more specific prophecy about a 490 year period for Israel's judgement, and a future seven year agreement with Satan.

Prophecy must be exact, and so far, God has been exact. There is no good argument against that, and your examples don't fly.

I'm sorry, but your argument that it's impossible to mix figurative and literal prose in the same passage is just dumb. If I said, "It's raining cats and dogs," do you deny that it's raining because a metaphor was used to describe an actual event? Or do you think I believe that the rain is actually cats and dogs?

And unless you think that the parousia you've identified in Isaiah 66 is just a figurative event, you are mixing literal and spiritual in the same passage yourself.
 





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Over the last couple days, I've been thinking about this topic a lot. Discussions like these are so good for sharpening the tools we use to study God's word. I'm sorry for being a jerk to you, @Daciple. I'm enjoying going over these scriptures and it's my fault I didn't get to do this sooner. :)
 





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Ok so lets begin with this, you take the 1000 years literally, you think it is a literal span of time. In order to do this you must be literal in your reading of the rest of the passage, otherwise you are being inconsistent in your approach to Scripture.

And when we read this as literal then things become absurd, so lets see do you really want to read this as literal?

Do you really believe that an Angel is going to physically come and literally grab Satan who is a Dragon, and literally have a key with a literal chain and literally chain him into a literal bottomless pit?

When you read this literally it is absurd. Just like saying the War consists of people whose number are as the sands of the sea. Is that literal?

Of course we dont read any of this as literal, its all symbolic like the entire rest of the Book is. So concerning the 100 years, do you consider all the other times that 1000 is used in Scripture as being literal or are they always symbolic?

.
I have always felt that things didn't line up very well with this interpreted literally in the sense that it is usually interpreted as an event that happens as part of a linear timeline in the book of Revelation. So that it would take place at the end of everything else spoken of in Revelation because it is listed at the end.

There were several problems that come up because of this. The most significant is that when the Devil is released to try to deceive the nations again, this would mean that he is released to try to deceive the elect who take part of the first resurrection if they were literally raised to reign with Christ on earth. This includes all those who have already been tested so that they have already shown themselves to choose death rather than rejection of Christ and to refuse the mark.

It has just never made much sense to me that it would happen this way. It doesn't make sense that this would be the group of people to receive this experience.

What you have been saying really makes a lot more sense and has caused me to put a few more things together that I thought I would share as a result.

From Revelation 20, there is no reason to believe that this is the final step in the process. So if it is not something that happens on a linear timeline, it means that Satan was bound because of Christ and the verse about the mystery of lawlessness lines up with the verse in Revelation 20 about the devil being bound and released.

"He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time." Revelation 20:3

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed" (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8).

It would make much more sense for these verses to line up and refer to the same event.

Then, the primary reason what you are saying makes so much sense to me is the verse regarding the 5th seal.

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained." (Revelation 6:9).

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4).

So these two verses would be talking about the same thing and basically saying that after Christ was resurrected, everyone who was in Christ and beheaded because of their testimony or refused the mark has taken part in the first resurrection and are living now. Those who do not fit this description are asleep and waiting for the great white throne judgement.

This makes so much more sense than supposing that this was not a real experience that John witnessed like it was some sort of symbolic mirage or something; or that their is something missing information that would explain where these people came from and why they are able to be present to fulfill this seal.

The witnesses of the 5th seal are the ones who have taken part in the first resurrection because we are in the 1000 years of Christ spoken of in Revelation 20. Revelation 20:4 explains how the 5th seal is fulfilled. Everything makes so much more sense this way.
 





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"An important point – the Zionists were not a mass Jewish movement, atleast not at that time, but were a political
movement of rich and influential Americans, British and other Western Europeans.
Initially the British government tried to offer them Uganda, but the Zionist said no, they wanted Jerusalem and the land around it. And this is why we got the Balfour Declaration, but one of the various reasons is that Chaim Weizmann, a very wealthy and senior zionist, owned a business that produced huge quantities of acetone which was necessary for making bombs. So the British promised Palestine to the Zionists to get him on their side. Weizmann, ofcourse, went on to become the first President of Israel."

Anyone with a quick (article) link on the Parushim secret society?
Weizman was a research chemist lecturing in Manchester university when he discovered his acetone process.. He didn't own a business, he was appointed director of the British Admiralty's laboratories by Churchill to develop the process.. This led to his wealth...
 





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I've been mulling over this, as I said, and I have questions about the "spiritualization" of scripture. These are for anyone to tackle.

The passage I quoted before, Isaiah 2:2.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Why can't that mean exactly it says? Isaiah tells us that God told him that in the last days the Lord will rule the earth from Jerusalem. Does anyone doubt that's what God said? So how can people say that's not what he meant?

But we hear that this isn't really literally going to happen, but that it will be a "spiritual" fulfillment, letting God off the hook without a literal fulfillment of what was taken to be a literal promise.

These are questions I can't begin to imagine what the answers might be, but I'm interested in what those who take that passage spiritually have to say.
  • Was this prophecy ever supposed to be fulfilled in the literal sense?
  • If so, why would God promise a literal fulfillment of something if he knew it would only be fulfilled spiritually?
  • What are some other examples of prophecy that was meant literally but was instead fulfilled spiritually?
  • If the context of the verse is not the literal last days of the earth, what is it the spiritual last days of?
  • From scripture, what do the following represent, spiritually? The mountains. The Lord's house. The nations.
  • If this prophecy was or is to be fulfilled spiritually by Jesus Christ, how was it, or how will it be?
I'm hoping @Daciple will respond to my last couple of posts, too. :)
 





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So I had a whole response written out, but I got sick and hadnt been able to come back to it and it got erased, I hope to soon visit it again. It was a response to the your same post that my last post was speaking on, just the details I hadnt gotten to address yet. I dont have the time ATM to go back so I will move on to your next response.

Their Babylonian captivity was prophesied to be seventy years, the fact of which led Daniel to seek God and which resulted in even more specific prophecy about a 490 year period for Israel's judgement, and a future seven year agreement with Satan.
Nope it did not, I whole heartedly disagree, that Prophecy was completed at Christs Death and Resurrection. Again more of this Dispensationalism that basically no one believed in until JND, something you overwhelmingly refuse to acknowledge. In the History of the Church only a handful of people ever believed in anything slightly resembling your ideology and basically no one until JND ever thought that the 70th week of Daniel should be broken up and some future 7 yr agreement with Satan would be made.

Now I do believe that numbers are literal in the certain aspect that you mentioned, yes they wondered the desert 40 years, they were Captive 430 yrs, the famine was 7 years, but that is completely apart from the 1000 yrs we are discussing. Almost none of them were Prophecies #1 and #2 the 7 years was specifically spoken about, as in it was directly interpreted for him.

Gen 41:29 Behold, there come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt:
30 And there shall arise after them seven years of famine; and all the plenty shall be forgotten in the land of Egypt; and the famine shall consume the land


The Prophecy was given the interpretation right there in the text, we are looking at a Prophecy that wasnt given an exact interpretation and as I have shown these aspects of 1000 are almost never ever literal, instead they are about large numbers or long lengths of time.

Prophecy must be exact, and so far, God has been exact. There is no good argument against that, and your examples don't fly.
I mean I of course dont think you are going to accept my perspective at the moment, it took me years to be open minded enough to look at it, and so I dont expect you to think my examples fly in your mind. However that doesnt stop what I am saying from being true, almost every single time the number 1000 is used saved when literally numbering things like the troops, it is NOT literal, it is figurative.

And not every Prophecy that has a number in it is literal either, do you think the mark of the beast is a literal 666? It is not, that is figurative language for the fallen man. 777 is perfection 666 is the opposite, imperfection.

Almost all of the numbers in Revelation are Allegorical or Spiritual, do you think it is a coincidence that there are 7 Churches, 7 Spirits, 7 Lampstands, 7 Stars, 7 Angels, 7 Seals, 7 Horns and Eyes on the Lamb ect? Do you think these are all Literal? I dont, I believe they are all Symbolic, Allegorical or Spiritual, because 7 represents completeness or perfection, its the Holy Number of God. I dont believe these numbers are to be taken literally, they represent something else, something deeper and more meaningful than just a number. Same with the other numbers which again most of them you choose to interpret literally.

And unless you think that the parousia you've identified in Isaiah 66 is just a figurative event, you are mixing literal and spiritual in the same passage yourself.
Of course there is going to be some literalness to Prophecy or else it is not Prophecy. I am not saying it isnt raining, what I see in your example about cats and dogs is, in relation to the 1000 yrs is that you are telling me if the cats and dogs are not literal, then I cant say it is raining.

The cats and dogs represent something, the 1000 yrs represent something, we both believe that there is an action behind the 1000 yrs correct? You believe the 1000 yrs (cats and dogs) is literal and concerning a literal reign on the Earth of Christ (rain).

I say the 1000 yrs (cats and dogs) is figurative concerning the length of time between Christs 1st and 2nd Advent (rain).

I am saying it is raining but the cats and dogs are not real, you are saying its raining and the cats and dogs are real...

Why do I say the Parousia is real? Because it is confirmed over and over and over and over and over in Scriptures, its not taken from 1 verse and cobbled together from other random verses. Jesus said He is coming back period. It is pretty much the only thing we would agree on, so why would I deny this? I then look at the Old Testament thru the lens of the New Testament and the method that the Apostles looked at Old Testament Prophecy and it is Spiritual over Literal almost always. Is there some Literalness, yes, but not in the aspect that you choose to interpret it all.

They viewed the fulfillment of Prophecies concerning Israel as completed in the Church or at the New Heaven and New Earth, you reject this...

Over the last couple days, I've been thinking about this topic a lot. Discussions like these are so good for sharpening the tools we use to study God's word. I'm sorry for being a jerk to you, @Daciple. I'm enjoying going over these scriptures and it's my fault I didn't get to do this sooner. :)

Pro 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend
.

I am glad that you are starting to enjoy the discussion and see the point of why I have brought this up. And no worries, I forgive you about the jerk thing, and I apologize if I was one as well.

I will reply to the other posts when I get a chance...
 





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Why can't that mean exactly it says?
So you think that the Lords house will be literally on the tops of mountains?

Do you think it will be exactly as it says, above all hills?

Or is this again a metaphor about concerning God being above all things?

Isaiah tells us that God told him that in the last days the Lord will rule the earth from Jerusalem.
So as I have been trying so despartely to get you to see, how did the Apostles view the idea of Jerusalem, was it literal as in a city in the Middle East or was it Spiritual speaking of a reality in the Spiritual or Unseen sense?

When I say Spiritual it is no less real, it is simply in the Spiritual Realm. So what Jerusalem do you think all the Nations are flowing to right now?

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Is that Jerusalem not real? Paul surely thinks so and so do I.

So how can people say that's not what he meant?
No one is doubting Gods Word nor what He meant, you just choose to see everything as going to be literally fulfilled in the future in some supposed Earthly Reign, I choose to accept everything being fulfilled in Christ, the Church and the New Heaven and New Earth.

What if the Jerusalem that God is speaking about here is the New Jerusalem in the New Earth? Would it be any less fulfilled if THAT is when it is fulfilled?

Or do you think it is a failure unless it is fulfilled the way YOU think it ought to be in this current Earth in this current Jerusalem?

letting God off the hook without a literal fulfillment of what was taken to be a literal promise.
Says who? You?

Again pretty much no one in Church History thought the way you do about Israel and these literal fulfillments. Almost all of them believed they were living in the Last Days, Paul or the Hebrews writer said he was living in the Last Days, absolutely none of them thought that Israel was going to or needed to be restored physically for Christ to come back or any of the other Prophecies that you attribute to the End Time Scenario.

So if that is the case, how can you still insist that 1) this is a literal promise and 2) how is anyone "letting God of the hook" or how can you lay such a claim at the feet of every Christian that lived prior to JND?

Was this prophecy ever supposed to be fulfilled in the literal sense?
Again I dont believe it is meant to be understood in the literal sense of Jesus on this Earth Reigning from an Earthly Jerusalem.

So if Jesus is Reigning right now in the Heavenly Jerusalem, the Free Jerusalem, the mother of us all, and that is the real House of the Lord, would you consider that a literal fulfillment of this Prophecy?

If there is a New Heaven and a New Earth with a New Jerusalem and the House of the Lord is there with all Nations flowing to it, would you consider that a literal fulfillment?

Or is a literal fulfillment ONLY this Earth, this Jerusalem?

If so, why would God promise a literal fulfillment of something if he knew it would only be fulfilled spiritually?
Again what is your definition of literal? Jesus rules right now in Heaven on a Throne is that not real? Is that not a literal fulfillment of any Prophecy?

There is a Jerusalem above, is that not real, is that not a literal fulfillment?

There will be a New Jerusalem, a New Heaven and a New Earth, when Prophecies find their fulfilment in them are they not literal?

Is literal ONLY this Earth, this Age, this Time to you?

What are some other examples of prophecy that was meant literally but was instead fulfilled spiritually?
Thats an unfair question because you have chosen to inject "meant literally" in the sense YOU chose to interpret it in, for the here and now Earth and Age. Everything you attribute to an Earthly Reign of Christ in this present Age, all of it can be seen as fulfilled in either Christ Himself, in the Church or in the New Heaven and New Earth. That is exactly how everyone prior to JND interpreted the Scriptures...

Maybe you are more willing to read and hear what I am saying this time, the Pharisees they were expecting Christ to come and literally restore Israel to its Earthly position, to kick out the Gentiles and reign over them. Jesus Himself looked at them and said you do not understand what the Kingdom is, nor do you understand what I have come to do.

Jesus never was coming to restore Israel to some former glory in this Earth, everything He has come and will come to do was exactly as He has said, its about Salvation and Judgement. All of that is found in Him and at His 2nd Coming and in the New Heaven and New Earth.

What you want is what the Pharisees wanted, and Jesus told them no and they hated Him for it...

From scripture, what do the following represent, spiritually? The mountains. The Lord's house. The nations.
Well mountains are seen in the Scriptures as the places where those who lived back then would erect Temples and burn incense and worship their gods at:

2 Chron 21:11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.

The idea being portrayed here is that the Lords House, the dwelling place of God is going to be or is raised above everything else.

Search mountains in Scripture and look at how often it is NOT referring to a literal mountain, all most every time it is written except the ones where its like, I will run out the people from the mountain of this place or that place, it is used metaphorically.

Isaiah 42:11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

Isaiah 44:23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the Lord hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

Isaiah 41:15 Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.

Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

Isaiah 64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

Jeremiah 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jeremiah 13:16 Give glory to the Lord your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.

Jeremiah 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Ezekiel 31:12 And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him.

I could quote dozens more, but in none of these are the mountains literal, they are all used symbolically to represent great height or weight ect. In the same manner the use of mountain in that Prophecy you are quoting is speaking of God being raised above everything else...

The Lords house is where the Lord dwells. I believe I have already shown that in Scripture, the New Jerusalem/ the Jerusalem above is where the Lord dwells.

Also it is fulfilled in the fact that the Lord dwells in us, we are the Temples which of course you know but still are looking for some Temple in Jerusalem to be rebuilt...

The nations are the mass of all people, and all people have now been flowing to the Jerusalem above since Christ came and opened all of us up to it. Do you believe this?

If this prophecy was or is to be fulfilled spiritually by Jesus Christ, how was it, or how will it be?
I feel like I am repeating myself, it was fulfilled by Christ when He died and resurrected and opened all the Nations to the Lords House the Jerusalem above, which is far above any heights of mountains and elevated above all things.

Do you not go to Jesus? Does He not teach you His ways? Does He not help you to walk in His path?

And if you refuse to accept all of that, which if you are honest you do believe Jesus is Reigning right now, that He did set Spiritual Jerusalem above all things, that all the Nations aka the Gentiles come to it and Him ect, then we can see a literal fulfillment in the New Heavens and New Earth..

There does not need to be the Pre Mil Earthly Reign ideology you hold, to fulfill these Scriptures as they were given...
 





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Again pretty much no one in Church History thought the way you do about Israel and these literal fulfillments.
I don't care what anyone else in church history thought. I really don't. I read the Bible. I use scripture. When was the last time I quoted Darby? I had never heard the name Darby until people like you started accusing me of following his teaching.

The way I see it, you an overwhelming problem with a lot of scripture. I don't generally cut and paste, but these are just a bunch of references from scripture about a literal earthly reign of Jesus Christ that everyone except you thinks is going to happen.

The doctrine of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ on earth is not just in Revelation 20. It's throughout the Bible. Revelation 20 only sets the length of time the kingdom on earth will last.

I believe Jesus is returning to reign on earth because the Old Testament prophets say so.
1) The Psalms
  • Psalm 2:6-9 — David says the Messiah will reign over “the very ends of the earth”from Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
    • Psalm 22:27-31 — David again affirms that the Messiah will be given dominion over “the ends of the earth” at the time when He “rules over the nations.”
    • Psalm 47 — The sons of Korah rejoice over the day when the Lord will be “a great King over all the earth,” and they state that this will take place when the Lord subdues the “nations under our feet.”
    • Psalm 67 — An unidentified psalmist speaks prophetically of the time when the nations of the world will “be glad and sing for joy.” This will be when the Lord comes to “judge the peoples with uprightness.” At that time the Lord will “guide the nations on the earth” so that “all the ends of the earth may fear Him.”
    • Psalm 89:19-29 — The psalmist, Ethan, speaks of the Davidic Covenant and proclaims that it will be fulfilled when God makes His “first-born the highest of the kings of the earth.”
    • Psalm 110 — David says a time will come when God will make the enemies of the Messiah a footstool under His feet. This will occur when the Messiah stretches forth His “strong scepter from Zion.” At that time He will “rule in the midst of His enemies,” for… “He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath, He will judge among the nations.”
    • Psalm 132:13-18 — An unnamed psalmist speaks of God’s fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant. He says this will occur at a time when “the horn of David” springs forth to reign from Zion. He says “His crown will shine,” and He will make Zion His “resting place forever” for He will dwell there.
2) Isaiah
  • Isaiah 2:1-4 — Isaiah says that “in the last days” the Messiah will reign from Mount Zion in Jerusalem and the entire world will experience peace.
    • Isaiah 9:6-7 — The Messiah will rule from the throne of David, giving the world a government of peace, justice, and righteousness. (Note: The throne of David is not in Heaven. It is located in Jerusalem — see Psalm 122. Jesus is not now on the throne of David. He sits at the right hand of His Father on His Father’s throne — see Revelation 3:21.)
    • Isaiah 11:3b-9 — The Messiah will bring “righteousness and fairness” to the earth when He returns to “slay the wicked.” At that time, the curse will be lifted and the plant and animal kingdoms will be restored to their original perfection.
    • Isaiah 24:21-23 — When the Messiah returns, He will punish Satan and his demonic hordes in the heavens and then will punish “the kings of the earth, on earth.” He will then “reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem” for the purpose of manifesting His glory.
3) Jeremiah
  • Jeremiah 23:5 — “‘Behold, the days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I shall raise up for David a righteous Branch; and He will reign as king and act wisely and do justice and righteousness in the land.'” (Note: The term, “Branch,” is a Messianic title.)
    • Jeremiah 33:6-18 — A day will come when the Lord will regather the dispersed of both Judah and Israel and will save a great remnant. At that time the Lord “will cause a rigthteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth.”
4) Ezekiel
  • Ezekiel 20:33-44 — The Lord says a day will come when He will regather the Jews to their land and will “enter into judgment” with them. He says that at that time “I shall be king over you.” He then adds that “the whole house of Israel, all of them, will serve Me in the land.”
    • Ezekiel 37:24-28 — The Lord says that He will dwell in the midst of Israel after a remnant of the Jews is regathered to the land and saved, and He promises that “David My servant shall be their prince forever.”
    • Ezekiel 39:21-29 — The Lord says that following the battle of Armageddon (verses 17-20), “I will set My glory among the nations; and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them.”
    • Ezekiel 43:7 — While being given a tour of the future Millennial Temple, Ezekiel is told by the Lord: “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet; where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever.”
5) Daniel
  • Daniel 7:13-14,18,27 — Daniel says he was given a vision in which he saw the Messiah (“Son of Man”) given dominion over all the earth by God the Father (“the Ancient of Days”). And then he adds in verses 18 and 27 that the kingdom is shared “with the saints of the Highest One,” and they are allowed to exercise sovereignty with Him over “all the kingdoms under the whole heaven.”
6) Hosea
  • Hosea 3:4-5 — The Jews will be set aside “for many days,” but a time will come “in the last days” when they “will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king.”
7) Joel
  • Joel 3:14-17,21 — Joel says that following the battle of Armageddon (verses 14-16), the Lord will dwell “in Zion, My holy mountain.” He repeats this in verse 21. And in verse 17 He identifies Zion as the city of Jerusalem.
8) Micah
  • Micah 4:1-7 — Micah repeats in greater detail the prophecy contained in Isaiah 2. Like Isaiah, he says the Lord will make Jerusalem the capital of the world. The world will be flooded with peace and prosperity. All believing Jews will be regathered to Israel, and “the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion.”
9) Zephaniah
  • Zephaniah 3:14-20 — This entire book is devoted to a description of the day the Lord will return to the earth in vengeance. The prophet says that at the end of that day, when the Lord’s enemies have been destroyed, the Jewish remnant will shout in triumphant joy because “the King of Israel, the Lord,” will be in their midst.
10) Haggai
  • Haggai 2:20-23 — The Lord says that a day will come when He will “overthrow the thrones of kingdoms and destroy the power of the kingdoms of the nations.” Then, using Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, as a type of the Messiah, the prophet adds: “‘On that day,’ declares the Lord of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, my servant,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you,’ declares the Lord of hosts.” The reference to the signet ring means the Father will grant His Son ruling authority.
11) Zechariah
  • Zechariah 2:10-13 — The Lord says that when He comes, He will “dwell in the midst”of the Jews, possessing Judah as “His portion in the holy land” and again choosing Jerusalem.
    • Zechariah 6:12-13 — When the Messiah (“the Branch”) returns, He will build a temple and “rule on His throne,” and the offices of priest and king will be combined in Him. Thus, “He will be a priest on His throne.”
    • Zechariah 8:2-3 — The Lord promises that when He returns to Zion, He will “dwell in the midst of Jerusalem,” and Jerusalem will be called “the city of Truth.”<
    • Zechariah 9:10 — The Messiah will bring peace to the nations and “His dominion will be from sea to sea.”
    • Zechariah 14:1-9 — The Messiah will return to the Mount of Olives. The Mount will split in half when His foot touches it, and the Jewish remnant left alive in Jerusalem will flee the city and hide in the cleavage of the Mount. Verse 9 says that on that day, “the Lord will become king over all the earth.”
I believe Jesus is returning to reign over the earth because the New Testament prophets say so.
1) Peter
  • Acts 3:21 — In his sermon on the portico of Solomon, Peter says Jesus must remain in Heaven “until the period of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.” The period of restoration spoken of here will occur during the Millennium when the curse is partially lifted and nature is restored (Romans 8:18-23).
2) Paul
  • 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 — Paul says that when Jesus returns “dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel,” He will also come for the purpose of being glorified before His saints. The return of Jesus to be glorified before His saints and all the nations of the world is one of the persistent themes of Old Testament prophecy (Isaiah 24:23, Isaiah 52:10,13, Isaiah 61:3, and Psalm 46:10).
    • 2 Timothy 2:12 — Paul says “if we endure, we shall also reign with Him.”
3) John
  • Revelation 12:5 — John sees a vision in which a sun clothed woman (Israel) gives birth to a male child (Jesus) “who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.”
    • Revelation 19:15-16 — In his description of Jesus returning to earth, John says He bears the title, “King of kings and Lord of lords,” and John says He will “rule the nations with a rod of iron.”
    • Revelation 20:4,6 — John says that after the return of Jesus to the earth, He will reign with His saints (“those to whom judgment has been given”) for a thousand years.
I believe Jesus is returning to earth to reign because the Heavenly Host say so.
1) Gabriel
  • Luke 1:26-38 — When the archangel Gabriel appeared to Mary, he told her that she would bear a son named Jesus who would be called “the Son of the Most High.” He then added three promises that are yet to be fulfilled: “the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end.”
2) The Four Living Creatures and the 24 Elders
  • Revelation 5:9-10 — When John is raptured to Heaven and finds himself standing before the throne of God (Revelation 4), he hears “the four living creatures” (special angelic creatures called seraphim in Isaiah 6) and “the twenty-four elders” (probably representative of the redeemed) singing a song of praise to Jesus. In this song they say that Jesus is a Worthy Lamb who has made His redeemed a kingdom, “and they will reign upon the earth.”
3) The Angels of God
  • Revelation 11:15 — Voices from Heaven make a proleptic proclamation in the midst of the Tribulation: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” (Note: A proleptic statement is one that speaks of a future event as if it has already occurred. This is a common form of expression in prophecy because all future events are settled in the mind of God as if they had already happened in history.)
4) The Tribulation Martyrs
  • Revelation 15:3-4 — At the end of the Tribulation, right before the final pouring out of God’s wrath in the form of the bowl judgments, all the Tribulation martyrs who are in Heaven join together in singing “the song of Moses… and the song of the Lamb.” In that song, they declare the Lamb (Jesus) to be the “King of the nations,”and they proclaim that “all the nations will come and worship before Thee.”
I believe Jesus is returning to reign on the earth because Jesus said so.
  • Matthew 19:28 — Jesus said that during “the regeneration” (the same time as “the period of restoration” referred to by Peter in Acts 3:21), He will “sit on His glorious throne,” and the Apostles will join Him in judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
    • Matthew 25:31 — Jesus said that when He returns in glory, “the Son of Man… will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him” for judgment. The throne of Jesus is the throne of David which has always been located in only one place — in Jerusalem (see Isaiah 9:6-7 and Psalm 122).
    • Acts 1:3-6 — Luke says that Jesus spent 40 days teaching His disciples about the kingdom of God. Then, as He was ready to ascend into Heaven, one of the disciples asked, “Lord is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” The question indicates that Jesus taught a time would come when the kingdom would be restored to Israel. Jesus’ response to the question indicated the same thing. He did not rebuke the question. Rather, He simply said it was not for them to know the times and seasons when the kingdom would be restored to Israel.
    • Revelation 2:26-27 — Jesus says that He has a special reward for any “overcomer”who keeps His deeds until the end: “To him I will give authority over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron.”
    • Revelation 3:21 — Jesus makes it clear that the overcomers will reign jointly with Him: “He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” Again, the throne of Jesus is the throne of David (Luke 1:32 and Revelation 3:7). The throne of David is in Jerusalem, not in Heaven (Psalm 122). Jesus currently shares His Father’s throne. He is not sitting on His own throne and will not do so until He returns to this earth. Then He will allow the redeemed to share His throne with Him.
 





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about a literal earthly reign of Jesus Christ that everyone except you thinks is going to happen.
Lol who is everyone?

You just said you dont care about what others thought, then you try and say well everyone but me believes in this supposedly Earthly Reign.

So everyone today? Or throughout history?

You would be correct that because of JND and Scofield and Hal Lindsey this idea has become wildly popular especially in Non Denominational Evangelistic Churches, but to say everyone would be a massive stretch.

However to say everyone didnt believe or rejected this ideology prior to JND isnt really that much of a stretch, its more along the lines of facts. Something that OUGHT to make someone who believes in this ideology stop for a second and wonder how and why they believe what they believe.

So what if you didnt hear of JND until recently, that doesnt stop the fact that this ideology comes from him.

You can learn all sorts ideologies and not know who created them or when, that doesnt stop these ideologies from starting from them.

Just like I can learn all about how E=MC2 and never hear the name Einstein it wouldnt stop Einstein from being the man that created that ideology would it?

And I also didnt know who JND was a few years ago, then I started studying who he was and what he did and where the ideas I was believing came from. Its a good thing to do, and if you can be honest and look into him and where the ideas you hold came from and still choose to hold them then all the power to you. However if you keep fronting like this man doesnt matter to what you believe then you are simply living in willful ignorance...

You may not be quoting him directly, but you are quoting his ideology and how he interpreted the Bible which was unheard of prior to him...

And with your list of quotes what do you want me to do? Show you how each one of them pertains to Christs Death and Resurrection, the Church or the New Heavens and New Earth?

I am not gonna do 1/10th of them but just to prove a point:

Ps 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Already has been fulfilled! Dont believe me?

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

What does Paul say, does he say this has been fulfilled?

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Paul acknowledges that this has been fulfilled in Christs Death and Resurrection.

You dont like to see it but its done, that has been fulfilled Christ is set already upon the Holy Hill of Zion, the Heathen has already been given to Him, the Earth is His Possession right now, and He is breaking us with an iron rod and dashing us in pieces.

The Gentiles better Kiss the Son lest they He be angry and they perish from the way..

I can do this for each one of the verses you have listed, but I am not gonna sit here and do it for them all, thats quite a list, but just as I have shown here your ideology isnt the only nor imo proper way to interpret these verses...
 





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@Daciple you're not responding in good faith. All those verses are referring to a literal, earthly kingdom of Jesus Christ. You need to explain why we don't need to take those verses literally.
 





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The scripture I posted. That everyone.
No, you say everyone believes as you believe, but I am saying no you are wrong not everyone believes all of those verses pertain to a literal physical reign of Christ on this planet. I am saying that until the 1800's almost NO ONE thought they pertained to a literal physical reign of Christ on this planet.

This is just facts...

@Daciple you're not responding in good faith. All those verses are referring to a literal, earthly kingdom of Jesus Christ. You need to explain why we don't need to take those verses literally.
I have responded to everything you have written in good faith, you my friend have continually dodged and ignored slews of questions that I have brought up concerning your ideology, lets not get it twisted. Just the post before the last I asked you at least 21 questions, you answered how many? Zero, how about you sir respond in a bit of faith...

As I have stated above, almost no one in History believed that these verses referred to a literal reign of Christ on this planet some thousands of years later, that sir is a fact.

As I showed in the first one in which I address, it isnt speaking of some future reign of Christ on this Earth, it was FULFILLED in Christs Death and Resurrection, just as Paul stated. Do you not agree with Paul?

Now you want me to go and do the same thing with each verse? Why, you didnt even acknowledge the ONE that I did show. Why is it that Paul says that verse was already fulfilled in Christ? Why is it NOT fulfilled if Scripture itself already says it was?