Real News Or Onion News Game

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#21
Well their ancestors were either displaced slaves who were tortured and abused by 'English speakers' or they were themselves a product of colonialism so maybe if they were left alone in their native homelands they wouldn't be ruining your perfectly English world.

so because some of these countries were under colonial rule, the oppressed people have an excuse not to learn the language properly?
excuses like this are not going to cut it forever. at some point, everyone has to take some personal responsibility for themselves.
try again.
 





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#22
Studies have shown people are happier when the sun is out. So what? Happiness is subjective and an abstract concept such as joy can't be measured by statistics. What about deaf people, you saying they can't express themselves so they're less happier than the average person?
why do you think babies cry? why do you think children act up? not having the ability to fully express oneself is limiting and extremely frustrating. without a wide array of words from which to choose, how else can one select a word to properly describe something to another?

id argue that deaf people can express themselves through other senses. having the loss of a sense usually has the effect of enhancing the others. i am sure blind people can easily distinguish sounds far better than the rest of us. those distinct sounds become their wide vocabulary.
 





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#23
but i still want an answer: are you saying that pidgin speakers are too lazy or stupid to complete their education and learn proper english?
You're assuming they're uneducated not me, many come to study in universities and have decent jobs. If you bothered to do any research you'd find creole is a result of pidgin English so you're essentially labelling an entire community of people who speak creole unintelligent.

Perfect English doesn't equate to intelligence nor does it determine whether someone has an incomplete education. They speak English fine you just don't want to accept that. Are you really stupid enough to assume they write like that? In professional settings of course not!
 





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#24
so because some of these countries were under colonial rule, the oppressed people have an excuse not to learn the language properly?
excuses like this are not going to cut it forever. at some point, everyone has to take some personal responsibility for themselves.
try again.
You made a point about perfect English and that was my response. You can't mess up nations and then expect them to completely adopt everything you thrust down their throats. Let people be, if you have such a problem with pidgin English then you really need a hobby, I hear it often and I understand the people fine.

Stop making assumptions, I didn't say anything of the sort, they know the language fine, they speak and integrate fine. I don't know a soul who reads the BBC pidgin news but I'm sure there are people who find it easier to read in that way. Why do you care so much?
 





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#25
why do you think babies cry? why do you think children act up?
Because they're babies. Because they're children. Are we seriously correlating children and pidgin English? That's such a weak argument.

Babies cry for a variety of reasons, even if they could talk and communicate what they wanted, they'd still cry. So your point has no relevance to the argument of pidgin English.

Children act up again, for various reasons, they can speak and express themselves, if they act up likely they're anxious, upset, frustrated etc. They can clearly speak but have difficulty handling their emotions, that's not a language issue but a behavioural or emotional one
 





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#26
? not having the ability to fully express oneself is limiting and extremely frustrating. without a wide array of words from which to choose, how else can one select a word to properly describe something to another?
You're making assumptions, who made you the spokesman for creole and pidgin speakers? You're really condescending, you're labelling intelligence with the ability to speak English perfectly. They speak English fine, they express themselves fine and they're not limited at all.

Their vocabulary is just as broad and wide as yours, or mine, 'polymoog'
 





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#27
You're assuming they're uneducated not me, many come to study in universities and have decent jobs. If you bothered to do any research you'd find creole is a result of pidgin English so you're essentially labelling an entire community of people who speak creole unintelligent.

Perfect English doesn't equate to intelligence nor does it determine whether someone has an incomplete education. They speak English fine you just don't want to accept that. Are you really stupid enough to assume they write like that? In professional settings of course not!

i never said they are uneducated. thats your assumption (although in your next post (#41) you tell me to stop making them-- maybe you ought to listen to your own advice). i said they are speaking a botched, broken english. its great if they come to the university to COMPLETE their english education.

fine, lets do some research as per your request: creole is a mixed language, similar to yiddish. they are both legit. not so with pidgin.
from wikipedia:

Creoles also differ from pidgins in that, while a pidgin has a highly simplified linguistic structure that develops as a means of establishing communication between two or more disparate language groups, a creole language is more complex, used for day-to-day purposes in a community, and acquired by children as a native language. Creole languages, therefore, have a fully developed vocabulary and system of grammar.

as for "professional settings", wouldnt the BBC news website be considered a professional setting? my main argument began with the BBC creating such a site to legitimize pidgin as acceptable. you then said that they were catering to the pidgin speakers. so are you now saying that the BBC is not professional?
 





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#28
You made a point about perfect English and that was my response. You can't mess up nations and then expect them to completely adopt everything you thrust down their throats. Let people be, if you have such a problem with pidgin English then you really need a hobby, I hear it often and I understand the people fine.

Stop making assumptions, I didn't say anything of the sort, they know the language fine, they speak and integrate fine. I don't know a soul who reads the BBC pidgin news but I'm sure there are people who find it easier to read in that way. Why do you care so much?
like i said before, you are setting the bar very low. pidgin speakers are completely capable of learning english as well as you and me. but the BBC is sending a message that says, "its okay to just get by with pidgin." thats insulting to pidgin speakers. pushing high expectations from every person forces all people to succeed.

many indians from india speak perfect english in india without resorting to a broken english. they were, as you say, "messed up" as a nation by colonialism.

by the way, ad hominem attacks during a debate... its disappointing that youd stoop to that.
 





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#29
Babies cry for a variety of reasons, even if they could talk and communicate what they wanted, they'd still cry. So your point has no relevance to the argument of pidgin English.

Children act up again, for various reasons, they can speak and express themselves, if they act up likely they're anxious, upset, frustrated etc. They can clearly speak but have difficulty handling their emotions, that's not a language issue but a behavioural or emotional one
a valid rebuttal.
my point was, babies and pidgin speakers have a minuscule vocabulary in which to express themselves.
 





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#30
A survey of 74,000 short stories written by British children has revealed that Americanisms are destroying traditional British words.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...can-words-mangling-English.html#ixzz4rXptaaWu
Again, American english is a devolved version of British English but I guess since America is a superpower, it doesnt matter? Only colonists demand that the people they colonized speak their language to "succeed" but if you couldnt tell, the Chinese speak broken english but they're surpassing America as we speak.

Pidgin, Patois, Creole, and maybe even "ebonics" to a certain degree are to American english, as American english is to british english. Just devolved versions of the main language though Pidgin/Patois may be more like british english since thats who they were colonized by
 





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#31
like i said before, you are setting the bar very low. pidgin speakers are completely capable of learning english as well as you and me. but the BBC is sending a message that says, "its okay to just get by with pidgin." thats insulting to pidgin speakers. pushing high expectations from every person forces all people to succeed.

many indians from india speak perfect english in india without resorting to a broken english. they were, as you say, "messed up" as a nation by colonialism.

by the way, ad hominem attacks during a debate... its disappointing that youd stoop to that.
It's not a question of capabilities, language is a lot like music, it has different rhythms and rhymes, certain aspects of English such as asking questions or expressing concern or joy, require intonation. Many non native speakers speak English in the rhythm of their native tongues, which makes it seem like they're speaking broken English but they're not.

It's difficult but possible to train the tongue and mind to adapt to a new rhythm and rhyme so many people just learn English by the book and carry their accent. They're speaking English with the rhythm of their own language.

There's no such thing as perfect English, Brits are anal about grammar but even as a native speaker I'm always using colloquial language.

What's insulting is creating a standard of competency which is what you're doing. The BBC is catering to people who find it easier to read in pidgin, and others who speak pidgin variants. I don't see how this is lowering them, the fact we're referring to them as 'them' is problematic in itself

Indians have one of the strongest accents out there, they don't include articles and prepositions sometimes when talking (non-native speakers of English) and this can be similar to pidgin English speakers. From experience the Indians I've taught grammar too had problems with intonation and pronunciation so when speaking or writing they confuse their phonemes. Again, pidgin English speakers are the same, it's not so much an issue when you can perfectly understand what the individual is saying
 





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#32
said they are speaking a botched, broken english. its great if they come to the university to COMPLETE their english education.
By suggesting their English education is incomplete you're inferring they're not entirely educated to the standards you hold.

They're speaking a variant of English. Mauritian people speak a variant of French which isn't entirely the same as the native tongue. However it's still French.
 





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#33
Creoles also differ from pidgins in that, while a pidgin has a highly simplified linguistic structure that develops as a means of establishing communication between two or more disparate language groups, a creole language is more complex, used for day-to-day purposes in a community, and acquired by children as a native language. Creole languages, therefore, have a fully developed vocabulary and system of grammar.
Listen to a Caribbean person speak,

'Dem man der'
= those men over there

If you look at the pidgin BBC site it's exactly the same, they're using words such as 'dem' and 'na'. There aren't many lexical differences, they're practically the same and the terms such as pidgin, creole, patois etc. only really differentiate the regions of the speakers
 





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#34
as for "professional settings", wouldnt the BBC news website be considered a professional setting? my main argument began with the BBC creating such a site to legitimize pidgin as acceptable. you then said that they were catering to the pidgin speakers. so are you now saying that the BBC is not professional?
What are you talking about? I was referencing professional settings such as the workplace, at school of college or university. When writing letters or emails or professional messages no one uses pidgin English, they use the standard written English taught globally.

They're not legitimising anything, it's already an accepted and known form of English. It's a way of speaking and a way of reading English in a familiar manner to the reader. I'll say this again, the pidgin website is probably not used by people living in western nations but moreso those in colonial lands.

Why shouldn't pidgin not be accepted? It's used by such a minority it has no bearing on you or anyone else for that matter. langauge isn't perfect, English isn't perfect, it's everchanging and pidgin English is an example of that. You may not find it 'acceptable' but the question is why?
 





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#35
ill leave it so that you have the last word. my opinion has been stated very clearly already; i have no reason to rehash it.
let the lurkers and neutral parties decide which makes the most sense.