Ransom to Whom?

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That's how you read it but how I read it is that a man cannot save himself and it is only through the mercy of the Most High that can save you.
well in the context, a man here is saving 'himself' but he's doing it by changing his own qualities until they reflect the qualities of Jesus through the mystical path.

Example
you try to improve yourself, but you fail.
so you meditate on the ideal's represented by Prophet Mohammad SAW
even though you do not posess those qualities, if you plant the seed in your heart, those qualities will grow and reflect in you...
you will change that way, without external effort.
effort often fails people man, ive seen people lose hope after they try to improve and fall hard...
 

Kung Fu

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well in the context, a man here is saving 'himself' but he's doing it by changing his own qualities until they reflect the qualities of Jesus through the mystical path.

Example
you try to improve yourself, but you fail.
so you meditate on the ideal's represented by Prophet Mohammad SAW
even though you do not posess those qualities, if you plant the seed in your heart, those qualities will grow and reflect in you...
you will change that way, without external effort.
effort often fails people man, ive seen people lose hope after they try to improve and fall hard...
I see. Thanks brother!
 

Yahda

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Get over yourself, the only deception is you constantly claiming deception when there is none...



I dont think you even bothered to read either one of my posts addressing this did you? Clearly you couldnt have because of your response. The case you are trying to make is essentially that Sacrifice doesnt really matter that much and one of the proof texts you use is this one. The FACTS are that one can not logically come to the conclusion that Sacrifices doesnt matter using this verse because there was no call to Sacrifice here, Saul used it as a LIE to justify why he didnt follow Gods Command to kill everything. Do yourself a favor and re read my two posts because you look foolish in not understand my actual argument and why that verse doesnt in anyway negate the need to Sacrifice.

What is a Command of God tho?

Lev 4:24 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the Lord: it is a sin offering.

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.
33 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.

There is a Command for you to bring a Sacrifice for Sin Offerings, a Command neither you or the other psudeo Israelite want to OBEY and keep making excuses for not following.

Like I said if you are going to tell me that it is better to OBEY than anything, then get to OBEYING and show us how you are OBEYING the Commands of God in the Law, otherwise you just are a hypocrite...
All non sense you are talking about how “, Saul took the Animals and the best things for himself and lied and said he was going to Sacrifice them when he was caught by Samuel......” IS IRRELEVANT.

God said nothing about a sacrifice. What he said was, to go destroy the Amalekites which Saul did not.

So follow me for a second. THEY HAD A SACRIFICE. They had the best of what was devoted to destruction to devote to God for sacrifice. ( 1st Samuel 15:22) HOWEVER God rejected the sacrifice because he did not OBEY.

V23.....BECAUSE YOU HAVE REJECTED THE WORDS OF THE LORD THE LORD HAS REJECTED YOU AS KING

The command to obey had nothing to do with sacrifice. He/they had a sacrifice genius. He failed to obey what he was commanded to do in 15:3.

According to YOU, not GOD, sacrifice was a command HOWEVER according to God


Malachi 4:4 REMEMBER THE LAW OF MY SERVANT MOSES THE COMMANDMENTS, REGULATIONS AND JUDGMENTS THAT I COMMANDED AT HOREB FOR ALL OF ISRAEL TO FOLLOW


Jeremiah 7:22 for I spoke NOT unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Who should one listen to ? You or God ?

Like I said you are very deceptive. You deceive through walls of text.
 

Daciple

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God said nothing about a sacrifice. What he said was, to go destroy the Amalekites which Saul did not.
Seriously tho, do you have a reading comprehension problem? Its almost like because you dont like me or my Faith, you have an inability to understand what I am saying. Either that or you are willfully ignorant, or you really do have a reading comprehension problem. Slow down and read what I am and have written.

Saul lied to Samuel saying he did what God wanted him to do, we both AGREE if you cant comprehend it, that Saul didnt do what God told him to do. My POINT has been this event in no way NEGATES Sacrifice because the COMMAND of God was kill everything, Saul choose IN AND OF HIMSELF not to kill everything against Gods specific Command here, and instead LIED and told Samuel he was going to Sacrifice the animals to God. Samuel then tells him in other words, dude God told you kill everything, it is better for you to have killed everything like God SPECIFICALLY called you to do in this SPECIFIC case, than to choose in and of yourself to make a Sacrifice.

This was a ONE TIME EVENT and in no way reflects the WHOLE of the Commands of God that indeed as much as you rail against His Commands, tell His people to Sacrifice for Sins!!! Do not get why this is so incredible difficult for you to grasp or comprehend, wow...

According to YOU, not GOD, sacrifice was a command HOWEVER according to God
Lol I cant even take you seriously anymore, are you kidding me? There are multiple chapters taking up almost entire books dedicated to Sacrificing, but you are going to stand here and say God didnt Command Sacrifices. And you call me deceitful, not only are you being deceitful in this case but you are being an outright liar on God...

Jeremiah 7:22 for I spoke NOT unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Again you quote this out of context and try and make 1 verse stand as the entire essence of Doctrine concerning Sacrifice, I literally already addressed that verse, but you apparently cant handle reading over 3 sentences. He didnt THAT day but He surely did after they rejected and DISOBEYED Him multiple times, where He got to the point of either KILLING THEM ALL BECAUSE OF THEIR SIN, or instituting the Sacrificial System so that ATONEMENT could be made for their SINS.

Who should you believe, I say God, who literally set up the Sacrificial System of which you are championing that will be REESTABLISHED again in the Future. How stupid is it to argue that the Sacrificial System isnt Commanded by God, isnt that big of a deal and then say IT WILL BE REESTABLISHED. God Commanded Sacrifice for Sin, if you say He didnt youre an outright liar...
 

Karlysymon

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I wrote a whole response and then I deleted it by accident. This new response is a lot shorter but gets to the point regardless. You say 'you can't just trangress God's moral Law and say I'm sorry' and I say if He's Just and Merciful why not?

How does it make sense that God would create man only for him to inevitably make a mistake and the only thing he can offer is genuine repentance but for it not to be accepted even though God claims to them that He's really merciful?

Exactly, otherwise we wouldn't have the Day of Judgement. EVERYONE will be held accountable for their own actions and this is where God's Justice comes in.

A Just and Merciful God wouldn't need a ransom because it's contradictory to Him then being merciful, just, and all powerful. Now I'm really confused. Why would Satan, a creation that is entirely separate from us humans, be our representative?
No offense but this sounds absolutely ridiculous. What you just said makes it looks like Satan has the power to negotiate with God with the sin of Adam(pbuh) being his bargaining chips.

This is the main problem with a ransom. If God truly needed a ransom then He's not All-Powerful, He's not All-Merciful, and He's definitely not All-Just. With this all means is God screwed up so bad with His creation that He needed to fix His own mistake and that I do not buy for even a second. Exalted is He.

Thanks for the response Karly nonetheless.
I was really tired yesterday, so couldn't come online to respond.

A&E repented and were forgiven but the problem of sin is very complicated. Saying 'iam sorry' doesn't undo the damage.

So i'll ask you this: from an Islamic pov, if A&E were forgiven, why do we all die? I mean, you don't believe in hereditary sin. Since they were forgiven, why the death, woe, and misery that fills this world?

The need for a ransom doesn't change the facts about Him being all powerful, just and merciful. God respects His own laws. If He didn't, it becomes unjust of Him to require us to respect laws that He doesn't respect.
From a christian pov, it would all look like it does in Islam. Problem is the sacrificial rites, culminating in the Cross. Which are historical facts. So as someone studying the subject, one is left asking: since A&E were forgiven in Eden, why the cross? You can't understand the sin question until you examine the cross and vice versa. That's why the bible provides sufficient details on that question.

Our ideas about Satan are totally different. Iam curious though, does the quran have the heavenly discourse depicted in the book of Job?
Anyway, i already explained this but... Adam was made a regent. And as you are well aware, regents report to the King from time to time. That's the scene depicted in Job (1&2).
In Eden, Adam cast the die in favour of independence from God....in effect he joined the rebels, at whose head stands Satan. So the regency passed onto his leader, Satan. So everytime the regents from other worlds were summoned to heaven, Satan showed up, as the earthlings' rep. Christ acknowledged this so many times (John 12:31)

Ofcourse God could have destroyed Satan and Adam, and taken back His earth by installing a new regent but things aren't so easy. If you are going to have an intelligent regent, taking care of your creation, said-regent needs free-will. And free-will makes rebellion possible.

No offense taken.
God doesn't make mistakes. He is all-knowing. Free-will guarantees rebellion and everything that comes along with it. God is only prepared to deal with the results of free-will: rebellion or loyalty.

Unfortunately, our world turned out to be a theatre for this ageless contest between God and Satan.
Adam lost so much that recovering his losses required alot more than 'iam sorry'.
The opening chapters of the book of Job reveal to us just how extensive Adam's loss was. As we are given a glimpse into the throne room of the universe, we can also see how subordinate to nature the human race has become since the Fall.

Think about that next time you are *afraid* of a snake/bear/shark.
 

Yahda

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Seriously tho, do you have a reading comprehension problem? Its almost like because you dont like me or my Faith, you have an inability to understand what I am saying. Either that or you are willfully ignorant, or you really do have a reading comprehension problem. Slow down and read what I am and have written.

Saul lied to Samuel saying he did what God wanted him to do, we both AGREE if you cant comprehend it, that Saul didnt do what God told him to do. My POINT has been this event in no way NEGATES Sacrifice because the COMMAND of God was kill everything, Saul choose IN AND OF HIMSELF not to kill everything against Gods specific Command here, and instead LIED and told Samuel he was going to Sacrifice the animals to God. Samuel then tells him in other words, dude God told you kill everything, it is better for you to have killed everything like God SPECIFICALLY called you to do in this SPECIFIC case, than to choose in and of yourself to make a Sacrifice.

This was a ONE TIME EVENT and in no way reflects the WHOLE of the Commands of God that indeed as much as you rail against His Commands, tell His people to Sacrifice for Sins!!! Do not get why this is so incredible difficult for you to grasp or comprehend, wow...



Lol I cant even take you seriously anymore, are you kidding me? There are multiple chapters taking up almost entire books dedicated to Sacrificing, but you are going to stand here and say God didnt Command Sacrifices. And you call me deceitful, not only are you being deceitful in this case but you are being an outright liar on God...



Again you quote this out of context and try and make 1 verse stand as the entire essence of Doctrine concerning Sacrifice, I literally already addressed that verse, but you apparently cant handle reading over 3 sentences. He didnt THAT day but He surely did after they rejected and DISOBEYED Him multiple times, where He got to the point of either KILLING THEM ALL BECAUSE OF THEIR SIN, or instituting the Sacrificial System so that ATONEMENT could be made for their SINS.

Who should you believe, I say God, who literally set up the Sacrificial System of which you are championing that will be REESTABLISHED again in the Future. How stupid is it to argue that the Sacrificial System isnt Commanded by God, isnt that big of a deal and then say IT WILL BE REESTABLISHED. God Commanded Sacrifice for Sin, if you say He didnt youre an outright liar...

“the COMMAND of God was kill everything, Saul choose IN AND OF HIMSELF not to kill everything against Gods specific Command here” ~ Daciple

END OF STORY. I REST MY CASE. It has now been proven through scripture that he was rejected as king because he did not OBEY GOD.

No one asked him for a sacrifice. He was TOLD to destroy. “(1st Samuel 15:21) but the people took sheep and cattle from the spoil the best of what was devoted to destruction to sacrifice to God” Samuel then said “ Does God take as much pleasure in sacrifice and in burnt offerings as in OBEYING. Look! TO OBEY IS BETTER THAN SACRIFICE........v22 because you have REJECTED the word of God he has rejected you from being King.”

He/they had a sacrifice, but for some reason he was still REJECTED as king. I wonder why ? Hmmm ? Maybe it’s because “To OBEY is better than a sacrifice.”

Btw I’m done with this. It’s very simple and I’m sure people will easily see through your lies. Coughs walls of text !
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Subtle. I guess the question at the back of the question is why was God so apparently harsh on the Amalekites here? Why were they such an abomination? Why were they all to be destroyed. Does Genesis 6:4 have anything to do with it?

download (3).jpeg
 

Kung Fu

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I was really tired yesterday, so couldn't come online to respond.
Hope you're refreshed.

A&E repented and were forgiven but the problem of sin is very complicated. Saying 'iam sorry' doesn't undo the damage.
Again, why not? If He's All-Merciful and His mercy encompasses all things why wouldn't He be able to just forgive us after we have shown genuine guilt and repentance?

So i'll ask you this: from an Islamic pov, if A&E were forgiven, why do we all die? I mean, you don't believe in hereditary sin. Since they were forgiven, why the death, woe, and misery that fills this world?
If we didn't die there would be no need to be tested and therefore no reason for Judgement Day to exist. We die because the Most High is testing us and seeing which of us worship Him through our own free will and which of us don't. The misery, disasters, good times, children, adults, and everything else in this life are just tests for all of us and this is why we have to die. It's quite simple and straight forward and that's why Islam is so easy to understand.

The need for a ransom doesn't change the facts about Him being all powerful, just and merciful. God respects His own laws. If He didn't, it becomes unjust of Him to require us to respect laws that He doesn't respect.
Yes, it does from a logical and philosophical point of view. If the Most High NEEDS a RANSOM (I hope you know what that word means) than He can't be All-Powerful or All-Merciful. There's actually no mercy involved whatsoever when a ransom is involved. Needing a ransom completely throws the words mercy and forgiveness out the window.

From a christian pov, it would all look like it does in Islam. Problem is the sacrificial rites, culminating in the Cross. Which are historical facts. So as someone studying the subject, one is left asking: since A&E were forgiven in Eden, why the cross? You can't understand the sin question until you examine the cross and vice versa. That's why the bible provides sufficient details on that question.
There is no proof whatsoever that Jesus died and resurrected. Also, the only people that sacrifice actual people were pagans and Satan worshipers. You ask why the cross, well that's simple the Romans crucified people for various crimes just like how the British decided to hang people for various crimes lol. If Jesus lived during the time of the British Empire you would all be wearing chains with a rope (wearing a cross or any other symbol is again a pagan tradition).

Our ideas about Satan are totally different. Iam curious though, does the quran have the heavenly discourse depicted in the book of Job?
Anyway, i already explained this but... Adam was made a regent. And as you are well aware, regents report to the King from time to time. That's the scene depicted in Job (1&2).
In Eden, Adam cast the die in favour of independence from God....in effect he joined the rebels, at whose head stands Satan. So the regency passed onto his leader, Satan. So everytime the regents from other worlds were summoned to heaven, Satan showed up, as the earthlings' rep. Christ acknowledged this so many times (John 12:31)
We can get into the topic of Iblis/Lucifer in other thread if you don't mind. Yes, we also believe Adam(pbuh) was a vice regent on Earth. Regents don't need to go up to Heaven at least not from an Islamic point of view.

Ofcourse God could have destroyed Satan and Adam, and taken back His earth by installing a new regent but things aren't so easy. If you are going to have an intelligent regent, taking care of your creation, said-regent needs free-will. And free-will makes rebellion possible.
For your doctrines to wobble and somewhat stand you need to limit the power of the Most High. For Muslims it is easy for the Most High. He simple says "be" and it is. He doesn't need to rest ;)

No offense taken.
God doesn't make mistakes. He is all-knowing. Free-will guarantees rebellion and everything that comes along with it. God is only prepared to deal with the results of free-will: rebellion or loyalty.
If the Most High needs a ransom to fix things than He made a mistake. There's no two ways around it. Logic dictates this.

This life is nothing but a test.

Have you ever read the Quran from front to back?
 
Last edited:

Karlysymon

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Hope you're refreshed.
Iam, thanks.

You said:
Again, why not? If He's All-Merciful and His mercy encompasses all things why wouldn't He be able to just forgive us after we have shown genuine guilt and repentance?
Its not like, in christianity, He never forgave. He did, otherwise we wouldn't be here.
If we didn't die there would be no need to be tested and therefore no reason for Judgement Day to exist. We die because the Most High is testing us and seeing which of us worship Him through our own free will and which of us don't. The misery, disasters, good times, children, adults, and everything else in this life are just tests for all of us and this is why we have to die. It's quite simple and straight forward and that's why Islam is so easy to understand.
Yes, it does from a logical and philosophical point of view. If the Most High NEEDS a RANSOM (I hope you know what that word means) than He can't be All-Powerful or All-Merciful. There's actually no mercy involved whatsoever when a ransom is involved. Needing a ransom completely throws the words mercy and forgiveness out the window.
There is no proof whatsoever that Jesus died and resurrected. Also, the only people that sacrifice actual people were pagans and Satan worshipers. You ask why the cross, well that's simple the Romans crucified people for various crimes just like how the British decided to hang people for various crimes lol. If Jesus lived during the time of the British Empire you would all be wearing chains with a rope (wearing a cross or any other symbol is again a pagan tradition).



We can get into the topic of Iblis/Lucifer in other thread if you don't mind. Yes, we also believe Adam(pbuh) was a vice regent on Earth. Regents don't need to go up to Heaven at least not from an Islamic point of view.

For your doctrines to wobble and somewhat stand you need to limit the power of the Most High. For Muslims it is easy for the Most High. He simple says "be" and it is. He doesn't need to rest ;)
If the Most High needs a ransom to fix things than He made a mistake. There's no two ways around it. Logic dictates this.

This life is nothing but a test.

Have you ever read the Quran from front to back?
I think the image you have in your head of Ransom is someone in captive in a basement somewhere with their family frantically collecting ransom money. He answered the claims of His own Law. How isn't that just? How isn't that merciful? The only other option was to blot them out of existence.

If the death and resurrection of Christ is questionable, now is the time, i think, you explained that little bit in the Quran about the boy who died in Jesus' place. Hence escaping the jaws of death and ascending on-high.

Its kinda hard for me to argue with you on this point. If you could link me to a detailed (simplified) study of the 'sin question' in Islam, that be great. And as i already told you, its a topic that greatly interests me.
Ofcourse i've never read the Quran entirely but i've flipped its pages before.....looking around....to see if there's Job, David, Moses etc :D
 

Kung Fu

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If the death and resurrection of Christ is questionable, now is the time, i think, you explained that little bit in the Quran about the boy who died in Jesus' place. Hence escaping the jaws of death and ascending on-high.
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain, But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, wise.

Quran 4:157-158

Its kinda hard for me to argue with you on this point. If you could link me to a detailed (simplified) study of the 'sin question' in Islam, that be great. And as i already told you, its a topic that greatly interests me.
Ofcourse i've never read the Quran entirely but i've flipped its pages before.....looking around....to see if there's Job, David, Moses etc :D
I'm pretty sure I've told you that the concept of "Original Sin" is alien to Islam and Judaism. According to the Quran sins are just acts done by people that go against what the Most High has ordained for us as "good". In Islam there is no "state of sin".

Before I became a Muslim I never could understand how Muslims knew so much about Christianity and how little Christians knew about Islam. Gaining knowledge on my journey using the faculties that I have been given by the Most High I have came to an understanding of this issue, which is that Muslims read the Bible to have a better understanding of what the Quran is saying (to see if the Quran is telling the truth) and to be able to discuss with Christians. The same can't be said for Christians. They seem to get their beliefs about Islam from a grade 11 history class, the TV, or their church. My advice to Christians would be pick up a copy of the Quran, read it in it's entirety (it doesn't take long), and then have a meaningful discussion with Muslims about it (ask them questions).

The above isn't specifically targeted at you and I'm not trying to take jabs at anyone. Just an observation. I invite you to read the Quran on its own free of biases from the internet, a church, or the TV and then ask me questions on it. By the way the Quran talks about Job (Ayyub), David(Daoud), and Moses(Musa). Moses(pbuh) is the most mentioned prophet in the Quran ;)

Peace be upon you Karly.
 

Karlysymon

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And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain, But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, wise.

Quran 4:157-158



I'm pretty sure I've told you that the concept of "Original Sin" is alien to Islam and Judaism. According to the Quran sins are just acts done by people that go against what the Most High has ordained for us as "good". In Islam there is no "state of sin".

Before I became a Muslim I never could understand how Muslims knew so much about Christianity and how little Christians knew about Islam. Gaining knowledge on my journey using the faculties that I have been given by the Most High I have came to an understanding of this issue, which is that Muslims read the Bible to have a better understanding of what the Quran is saying (to see if the Quran is telling the truth) and to be able to discuss with Christians. The same can't be said for Christians. They seem to get their beliefs about Islam from a grade 11 history class, the TV, or their church. My advice to Christians would be pick up a copy of the Quran, read it in it's entirety (it doesn't take long), and then have a meaningful discussion with Muslims about it (ask them questions).

The above isn't specifically targeted at you and I'm not trying to take jabs at anyone. Just an observation. I invite you to read the Quran on its own free of biases from the internet, a church, or the TV and then ask me questions on it. By the way the Quran talks about Job (Ayyub), David(Daoud), and Moses(Musa). Moses(pbuh) is the most mentioned prophet in the Quran ;)

Peace be upon you Karly.
Thanks for the discussion. Peace, aswell.
 
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