Ransom to Whom?

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by Kung Fu, Nov 29, 2017.

  1. Yahda

    Yahda Established

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    So now that everyone agree that sacrifice will indeed go back up, let’s see someone explain how Jesus became a ransom for sin ?

    Then you accuse me of cherry picking scriptures,......... scriptures that PROVED MY POINT......that it is more important to OBEY,.......not you used those same scriptures to prove the point I had already made, yet you acted as if you had really disproved me. When in actuality you just reiterated what I said. Wow !

    That’s why I never trust 5000 word counts. It’s screams deception.

    Now that WE proved the point some of us have been trying to make for days, let’s get back to the topic and prove what it is we are really trying to prove.

    Randsome to whom and why ? Remember there will still be sacrifices. So what was this randsome for ?
     

  2. Daciple

    Daciple Established

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    Let me rephrase then, you negated what he wrote in your own writings ;)

    I dont really call Judaism to the stand I call the Old Testament and the Religion of Abraham to the stand which is in my view wholly different than Modern Judaism which is essentially the Religion of the Pharisees. Ezekiel 8 tells us exactly who the Pharisees aka Modern Judaism worships and it is NOT the God of Abraham, if it was then they wouldnt have crucified Christ...

    I agree with the inconsistencies of declaring its Pagan to negate it in the present and declare it to be reinstated in the future by God Himself (again?)

    And of course I wont mind, I dont mind anything you post, I enjoy your posts and your even keel, intelligent style. I didnt know that many Jews were against Animal Sacrifice, but I believe that the main motivation of them being against it is of course to be able to have the ability to keep their Religion going without the Temple. Clearly that is a hard thing to contend with, a God that tells you to Sacrifice and then allows a Temple for these Sacrifices and then have it all destroyed. Pretty much stuck saying eh He really didnt want it that bad, its not a big deal or else you would have to concede that you are guilty before God because no Sacrifices are taking place. Hence the 2 pseudo Jews making that case now IMO...
     
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  3. Yahda

    Yahda Established

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    I’m not a Jew who say they are Jew from the synagogue of Satan. I repeat. I have no association with so called “ Jews” their book, nor their practices.

    Ju is short for JUDAH. Not jews or Jewish meaning sorta Jew, I converted. The real Judah and Israel according to scripture has been scattered and have no recollection as to who they are.
     
  4. Serveto

    Serveto Established

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    Well said and agreed. If I may quibble, it might be equally accurate to say that I anticipated your objections and I addressed them at the outset.
    I apologize for the comment. I edited it out, but apparently not in time.
    Sometime, when you have time and would go into more detail on this, I would like to hear your perspective. Maybe you could start a thread. Still, I know you are busy.
    I am going on my own potentially faulty memory, and it's been awhile since I read it, but that is one of the inconsistencies I found in his reasoning. Other than that, though, his reading of the prophets, especially Jeremiah, in this regard, is, in my opinion, well worth considering.
    Thanks, bro.
    Actually, it might be partly that, but I also think that a lot of Jews are highly ethical people and consider blood rites and rituals, a return to the rituals, that is, a form of atavism, a regression to a primitive time, especially when they have been celebrating Yom Kippur for 2,000 years without them, and that with scriptural justification (ref Maimonides et alia). I certainly haven't done any statistical studies on the subject, but I have listened in on some predominantly Jewish discussion boards on the topic and have overheard some say that only "thanksgiving" offerings will be given, whatever those are (perhaps you know?).

    Anyway, thank you for responding. There is no need for the two of us to continue, at this point. You get back to lighting fires with your fire-brand and I will watch -and sometimes appreciate- the "damage" you do in the process.
     

  5. Serveto

    Serveto Established

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    I hope I didn't confuse the issue by mentioning you and Maimonides in the same post. If I did cause any confusion, I apologize for that.
     
  6. KoncreteMind

    KoncreteMind Veteran

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    Why are you asking me questions without answering what was already asked? Its not a question of if Moses was a sinner or not because again, he was not given the answer that he could not do what he asked because he has sinned. Why cant we deal with the answer he WAS given and how it relates to your human sacrifice belief?

    Mind just plainly stating what book it is you're referring to?

    Yes you say thats foreshadowing but you dont get that its foreshadowing from the context of the verse OR from anything out the OT. Thats the problem here. All your doctrine is fixated on the NT and that from the OT gets ignored UNLESS its corroborating what you've read in the NT.. Calling that verse or any verse (such as Passover) foreshadowing is easy. Showing how its so using the OT? Impossible....

    I dont tell God when to or not to speak. I said that He didnt leave room for a human sacrifice. And thats clear when you can only point to ONE verse as proof of a future human sacrifice. Any other verses are you simply saying "foreshadowing" without exemplifying how its so with the text...

    Moses said to NOT believe people because of works but only based on them upholding what God commanded (Deut 13). So Jesus can kill himself and raise himself from the dead all he wants. Im NOT to believe him based on works/miracles/wonders..

    Sure you're picking one chpater and making it stand alone. Again I ask, who did Isaiah name as the servant? In a book with no chapters/verses, how could you get to the paragraphs that entail Chapter 53, and randomly switch the servant from who Isaiah repeatedly named, to who you say it is today?

    Let me rephrase. Did Jesus refer to anyone as being his seed at that time or in the future? To cut to the chase, no he did not. He said only the Father in heaven is to be called father and everyone that does his will is the brother/mother/sister of Jesus. Perfect time to mention being his seed, but of course it doesnt get mentioned.

    No the "wrath that all humanity would suffer in hell" equates to an eternity. Why isnt Jesus serving your punishment of eternity in hell if he stood in your place?

    Well you can pull up any miracles you like. I dont believe based off miracles/signs/wonders. Only believe if what you're saying is based in what God said. Its clearly not which is why you have to reference everything but what he said.. Thats first off. Secondly, I've reiterated that blood atoned for sin. Thats clearly written. I then said that its not the ONLY WAY TO ATONE FOR SIN. Had to capitalize it so you could refer to the other ways, that did not include blood, where sin was atoned for. As for foreshadowing, you could read anything in the OT and simply slap a label of "foreshadowing" and be done with it. OR, you could actually go thru the text (meaning OT) and show how its foreshadowing anything. That you cant do though, so we're left with labels you slap on the text....

    And that will be easy to do...


    And I said I dont fear him and that he has no authority over me. Nor does your doctrine of "believe in my god or go to hell". Maybe that applies to you, but my people were given the OT and only the OT to abide by. Im cool with going with that till my death or being shown a logical and more consistent belief system I should be following. That isnt and wont ever be what you're following...

    Nobody named "Jesus" created my sir. So again, I dont worry about your doctrine of salvation being true because biblically, from the OT's perspective, its not. So yea I do spit in the face of your belief that the God of Israel suggested a human sacrifice for atonement. Thats out of the books of pagans, not the God of Israel. So Im fine with standing on the rock I stand...
     
  7. KoncreteMind

    KoncreteMind Veteran

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    "The one who sinned against me is the one who I will blot out of my book"

    Cant get anymore clearer than this....

    Now sometime, we'll eventually get to you discussing the other ways of atoning for sin that didnt include blood.
     
  8. Kung Fu

    Kung Fu Star

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    Look at this wall of text. You're doing it again where you're typing a lot but not really saying anything.

    Sacrificing a human and goat are two very different things buddy. And by the way I have answered Karly. You guys just don't like the answer because your man god is limited to sacrifices of HUMANS whereas Muslims and Israelites believe that the Most High is above sacrifices and that the only thing that allows to reach Him is through the believe of ONE God and through obeying Him.

    Muslims perform animal sacrifices but for a very different reason (and even then it's not necessary). Accordingly, it is understood that the real aim of sacrificing an animal is to fulfill the order of the Most High and show that one fears Him. It means we can sacrifice even our most valuable things if He asks us.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  9. Kung Fu

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    I always start off reading what he has to say but when I've read several sentences in and see it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I just stop reading because there's no point in continuing. I think he plays this tactic on purpose in order for it to look like people have given up and he's won but if he does believe that he's not too bright.
     
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  10. Kung Fu

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    I like how you Christians never answered the question.

    Why would God need a ransom paid to Himself if he loved mankind so much? Doesn't needing a ransom defeat the purpose of Him loving us so much and being omnipotent?
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  11. Serveto

    Serveto Established

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    :D (eight pages in)
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  12. Karlysymon

    Karlysymon Star

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    i haven't properly gone through this thread but after i do, i promise to get back to you.
     
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  13. Kung Fu

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    No worries, Karly. Take your time.
     
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  14. Kung Fu

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    They brought walls of text talking about the sacrifice of animals, sanctuary tombs, and Islam but yet not one sentence addressing my original post. Can't say I'm surprised though.
     
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  15. Karlysymon

    Karlysymon Star

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    Okay, my promised response.
    Solid answers to your question were provided in the first 2 pages. So I'll just put them all together...

    I think Islam over simplifies the problem of rebellion but from the Christian pov, it's alot more complicated. You can't just transgress God's moral Law, say 'iam sorry', and go your merry way.

    Transgression of the Law demanded the life of the transgressor because the act transforms you into His sworn enemy. Meaning, Adam and Eve had to be zapped into nothingness. But God is a God of justice and mercy, and justice demands the aggrieved party be compensated. In His great mercy, He spared the lives of our first parents but the debt incurred had to be paid. The claims of the Law had to be met. And since no one was able to pay that debt, not man nor angels, God took it upon Himself to meet the claims of His own Law. (psalm 49:7-9)

    He wasn't willing to lose His own creation. Btw, He could have destroyed Adam and Eve right away and replaced them with a brand new couple. But there's the little problem of free-will. The brand new couple would still have to use their free-will to choose either rebellion or loyalty.

    All this shows the seriousness of the problem of sin/rebellion and the fact that the Moral Law is eternal, as Himself, and cannot be abrogated. The fact that the cross became the ultimate solution testifies to magnitude of the problem, that called for it, in the first place.

    Christ's death (the Ransom) was not only about redeeming man (sold himself into slavery to sin) but also taking back much of what he lost after the Fall. The cross accomplished so much and i can't go into that now but will expand on these two points: Adam lost the privilege of speaking face to face with God, aswell as representing himself in heaven. 'Iam sorry' wasn't going to buy that back. Christ's taking on human-nature through Mary, He overcame sin and won back the privilege for Adam's posterity. Through Him, we, in a way, speak face to face with God. He's also our representative. Before the cross, Satan was our representative (Job 1&2) in heaven because in Eden, Adam chose him over God, to be his leader. Adam's dominion and all that entailed, he dropped that into Satan's lap.

    One could argue that maybe the Ransom was paid to Satan. Christ's own life was the ransom, clearly something Satan wasn't interested in. All he wanted was his own kingdom with subjects. Which is something he had, since the Fall, but then lost.

    Hope that helps!
     
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  16. Red Sky at Morning

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    Well it made a lot of sense to me anyway ;-)
     
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  17. Daciple

    Daciple Established

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  18. Daciple

    Daciple Established

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    Here since you cant be bothered to read over a paragraph or else it is deception (because Books and Essays are all deception apparently in your mind) you make the claim that obedience is more important than Sacrifice, but the actual verse you would pull that from DOESNT ACTUALLY SAY THAT!!! Its all relative to CONTEXT, Saul took the Animals and the best things for himself and lied and said he was going to Sacrifice them when he was caught by Samuel having them. Then Samuel says it would be better that you obey the Command of God TO KILL EVERYTHING than to break that Command in order to make a Sacrifice. Pretty simple to see that you took that out of Context, the same thing is to be said in every example you stated. Nothing you quoted ACTUALLY BACKS UP YOUR THEORY that Sacrifices are not that big of deal.

    Plus lets not forget the ridiculously hypocritical stance you are taking and the anti-logic you are using to keep saying its better to obey than sacrifice, does the Law Command Sacrifice for Sin? Yes it does, thus it better for you to OBEY THE LAW TO SACRIFICE FOR SIN than make inane arguments against the need to Sacrifice, otherwise your a hypocrite period...

    Is that too much writing? Need less?

    You are a hypocrite, the Law says Sacrifice so OBEY IT...
     
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  19. Kung Fu

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    I wrote a whole response and then I deleted it by accident. This new response is a lot shorter but gets to the point regardless. You say 'you can't just trangress God's moral Law and say I'm sorry' and I say if He's Just and Merciful why not?

    How does it make sense that God would create man only for him to inevitably make a mistake and the only thing he can offer is genuine repentance but for it not to be accepted even though God claims to them that He's really merciful?

    Exactly, otherwise we wouldn't have the Day of Judgement. EVERYONE will be held accountable for their own actions and this is where God's Justice comes in.

    A Just and Merciful God wouldn't need a ransom because it's contradictory to Him then being merciful, just, and all powerful. Now I'm really confused. Why would Satan, a creation that is entirely separate from us humans, be our representative?

    No offense but this sounds absolutely ridiculous. What you just said makes it looks like Satan has the power to negotiate with God with the sin of Adam(pbuh) being his bargaining chips.

    This is the main problem with a ransom. If God truly needed a ransom then He's not All-Powerful, He's not All-Merciful, and He's definitely not All-Just. With this all means is God screwed up so bad with His creation that He needed to fix His own mistake and that I do not buy for even a second. Exalted is He.

    Thanks for the response Karly nonetheless.
     
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  20. Kung Fu

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    Of course, it did :rolleyes:
     

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