Ransom to Whom?

Daciple

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The value that YOU place on the blood being shed is irrelevant. All thats relevant is what God ordained. And He did ordain a way to which ANIMAL BLOOD could atone for sin. Human blood? Not so much
I agree save the last part, He clearly did ordain a way that Christs Blood could Atone for Sin, what doesnt matter is what value YOU put on the Blood being shed. You clearly keep rejecting the need for Atonement by Blood, downplaying it in every single post, acting as tho its NOT what actually brought Atonement. The fact is, it is the Blood that brought Atonement, as I have quoted multiple times...

Yet God didnt tell Moses he was blemished as a reason he couldnt atone for another's sins. He was told the reason he could not do what he asked to do was because everyone's sin belongs to them (paraphrase of course).You're the one that says the OT and NT goes together. So its YOU who should address God's answer in relationship to the contradiction that He later planned to come and do oppositely. Or in other words, for Moses and Israel, everyone's sin was their own. But later everyone's sin belongs to "Jesus" who still gets to go to heaven anyways and not face the death that he allegedly saved us from (eternal hellfire right?)...Which opens another can of worms to if someone stood in our place, shouldnt that someone be facing our punishment?
Again you seem to have any lack of understanding the whole of text or symbolism, taking one verse and making it the epitome of the entire essence of Atonement. Just like you keep ignoring the Significances of Blood Atonement then cling to one or two verses to say Sacrifice wasnt really needed. I will address your misuse of that statement in a bit, but God clearly tells us that He will send someone that WILL be the Atonement for Sins, you just choose to ignore these verses in the Old Testament, why? Because you want to reject Jesus as your Lord and Savior...

Is 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Clearly Scripture foretells that SOMEONE will come, a person, and He will bare our griefs and sorrows, that He will be wounded for our transgressions and iniquities aka Sins, that the iniquity of all, aka the Sin of all will be laid upon Him by the Lord, that the Lord will bruise Him, that His soul will be made an OFFERING FOR SIN, that He will bear our iniquities, aka Sin, and that He will make intercession for he transgressors, aka the Sinners, aka you and me.

The constant objections that God never said that He would send a person to bear the Sins of others in the Old Testament if a farce in light of these Scriptures, to say that someone wont bear our Sins and be made an offering aka Sacrifice for Sin is again a complete farce because Scripture makes it explicitly clear. So either you can keep being willfully ignorant and proclaiming a lie or we can begin to see how we can understand all these Scriptures in light of one another instead of trying to make them all stand alone. I personally dont believe that the anything in the Bible, Old or New Contradict so I ask the Holy Spirit to guide me in understanding all these texts that to those who arent Born Again see them as Contradictions or pick and choose which verses they want to hold as True and reject the others.

Would you like to have a conversation on how these verses can all be True at the same time or do you want to keep lying and saying God never ordained that a Human will come and bear the Sins of all and become the Sin Offering aka Atonement for all and the intercessor for all the Sinners aka mankind?

Its also your opinion/interpretation that without a human sacrifice nobody would be redeemed.
Actually its Gods, and Jesus, and all the Disciples and Apostles, my opinion is based on them, the Old Testament states it, the New Testament states it, its your opinion that isnt based off the Bible that a man wouldnt come to be the Redemption of Sin...

Ps 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

While you actually did ask me who isnt in the book that I dont have access to, I assume the book mentioned in Exodus is the same book David mentioned here...
Man you really do have a hard time understanding concepts dont you? So when I asked who isnt blotted out of the Book its essentially a rhetorical question for you contemplate what your trying to tell everyone, which is that all men bear their own Sins and thus since we all bear our own Sins we all will be blotted out of the Book. A logical reasoning I see you have yet to acknowledge...

So what is the Book of Life? Is that simply the Book of those who are alive now, or is this for the Future? That is what I am trying to lead you to discern, because again it would change the entire perception of the verse you are using as the end all be all of Sin and Redemption. If its simply means the Book of those alive now and their Sins will be placed on them, it results in physical death, if it is the Book of Eternal Life, well then everyone including you and I are all going to Hell with no hope of Redemption.

You over exaggerate the importance of sacrifice in the Israelite culture.
Absolutely not, you undervalue it significantly and we can all see why, as I said the second you acknowledge its importance is the second your ideology begins to crack...

Because not only were there OTHER ways to atone for sin, but God Hisself downplayed the importance of sacrifices multiple times saying He desired over sacrifice, OBEDIENCE. Obedience to what? His law or even better, instructions. Thats the central part of Israelite culture. Obedience to His instructions. Not sacrifice.
Man if that isnt a contradiction in thought and ideology I dont know what it, so the central part of Israeli Culture is obedience to the Law right? The same Law that mandates Sacrifice for Blood Atonement yet you want to act like that obedience to that Law doesnt really mean that much lol ok then...

Also God never downplayed the important of Sacrifice, its a wonder you dont actually quote the Scripture that you derive that idea from, I know why you havent, because if we actually read what is being told it has absolutely nothing to do with God downplaying Sacrifice and everything to do with Sauls disobedience. Since you wont quote it I will and lets go over it and see if what you are saying is really true or just you misquoting Scripture out of context and trying to cling to a false doctrine to justify rejecting the importance of Blood Sacrifice, which is mandated in the Law...

1 Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Here is the beginning of what was happening before the Verse you would be quoting, so we see that God tells him to go and smite all the Amalek, to utterly destroy them, and what ends up happening?

1 Sam 15:9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.

So Saul doesnt do what he was told instead he spared the best sheep and all that was good for himself, then Samuel comes to him and what happens then?

1 Sam 15:13 And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the Lord: I have performed the commandment of the Lord.

Man so he lies to Samuel and says he did what God told him to do, but clearly he didnt and Samuel calls him out on it:

1 Sam 15:14 And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?

So after being called out by Samuel in his lie, Saul continues his lie and says this:

1 Sam 15:15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.

Now he lies and says well yeah the best were spared but it was to sacrifice to the Lord, which again was a lie, and also notice he doesnt take the blame for himself does he? No he blames the people for taking the best things and lies and says THEY were going to sacrifice it to God. So what happens after this? Thats when the verse you would like to quote takes place and in context doesnt have anything at all to do with God not actually desering Sacrifice:

1 Sam 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

So in absolutely no way does this say Sacrifice isnt something God wants or ordains, in context what we see is that Saul went directly against what God commanded in annihilating everything to do with the Amalekites, instead he choose to keep all the Good things for himself, then when confronted about it he lies to Samuel saying he did what God commanded, then when caught in that lie, he lies again and blames the people saying they took it to Sacrifice. Thats when its said look God told you to kill everyone and everything, instead you took things for yourself and use the excuse that you are going to Sacrifice them to God, God never told you to Sacrifice these things, its better that you follow what God tells you to do than to disobey him and use the excuse of Sacrifice as a reason to disobey.

So now that we have this verse in context we can all see this has absolutely nothing to do with God disapproving Sacrifice and everything with obeying Gods Commandment in THAT specific incident to kill everyone not to choose of yourself what you want and then pretend its ok do disobey because you are going to Sacrifice it...

Since that is no longer a Scripture used to negate the importance of Sin, which others ones have you cherry picked out of context to support this ideology, I would love to know so we can do what we did here and put them back in Context to show everyone that God DOES NOT disapprove of Sacrifice, He Commanded it plain and simple...

As I said in this thread, its not hard to write a character to fulfill prophecies of the OT.
So now you are saying Jesus didnt exist? Wow lol ok then anything to get rid of that cognitive dissonance I suppose. It would be insanely hard to invent a Character that fulfills all of the Prophecies, if this was a man made invention surely there would be glaring holes and things that are not only internally wrong but Historically wrong. Also this is to deny the hundreds and thousands of people in the 1st century that stated He was a real person and then went on to die for speaking about Him. SMH if you really think this then I have lost pretty much all respect for you...

And when you start saying that the character is the Most High and that the character said that the things he (supposedly) once commanded are no longer in effect, and that he planned a human sacrifice for his own appeasement, then it becomes clear to me that this character is a devil/demon.
Except for the fact that YHWH pronounced He would send someone to be the Atonement of all, its like you keep purposefully ignoring this...

The only way this could be rectified is if you could connect the "new" with the "old". Which cant happen, especially as it pertains to Exodus 32 and Moses' attempt at what you later say Jesus succeeded at doing.
Its pretty simple to connect the New with the Old only people who are willfully ignorant refuse to see the fulfillment of Prophecies and how Jesus came to usher in a New Covenant which again YHWH states explicitly He is going to do. I mean if you just look at the Passover and how the dinner is served something that has been done for 1000's of years and see how it matches exactly Christs life death and resurrection one would have to put massive blinders on to think that an invention of human mind could dream up such a thing. Only God could dictate to a Nation a Holy Day and the method in which they are to serve and eat the food on that day and have it literally be a foreshadowing of the coming of Jesus...

But what you're saying in your posts arent facts but is simply NT doctrine you superimpose over the OT.
No they are Facts, Facts you dont want to acknowledge but Facts none the less...

Im pretty sure you read the NT then went back and read the OT with the NT in mind.
Yep just doing what Jesus stated to do...

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Here are some more facts that you wont acknowledge, you dont actually believe Moses for if you did, you would believe Jesus because Moses wrote of Jesus. See you dont have the love of God in you according to the Word of God, you refuse to receive Jesus even tho He comes in the Fathers name, when one comes in his own name then you will receive him...

Which is the ONLY way you can come to the conclusions you do.
All you have to do is read the Bible, all of it and when you do this that is the conclusion you come to. Start in the Old then New or vice versa regardless when you simply read the whole thing you will see how the New fulfills the Old, unless of course you choose to be willfully ignorant and reject the very obvious fulfillment. I mean I understand how many things can be hidden from your understanding as only those who are Born Again and have the Holy Spirit can truly understand the Word of God as the Carnal Mind is at enmity with God. However this doesnt preclude people from acknowledging how Jesus can be the fulfillment of overt prophesies. Especially when someone like you has been on this forum for years having Born Again people break them down to a point where toddlers could grasp it. For you its simply willful ignorance and as your name suggests having a heart and mind of stone that rejects the Truth no matter how often it is given to you...

So I dont fear missing out on the "final (human) sacrifice of Christ" based on that and I dont fear being guilty because God didnt set up for me a priest, temple, and Israelites being in their homeland again without oppression.
You dont have to fear anything, your fear doesnt play apart in the Truth, the Truth is you will stand guilty before God for your Sins and you will not have a covering, the Blood applied to you for Redemption of your Soul. You will stand before God and every single message that has been delivered to you, even this one right here, that you have heard and read will be brought up and you will have to tell God how you willfully rejected His Son and thus as Jesus says:

Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Then you will be place in Hell with the horrible knowledge that you purposefully chose against your own Salvation, full of regret with every message replaying in your head for eternity, I hope you dont choose that fate and open your heart to what Christ has done for you and come to accept Salvation that is freely given to you...

With all these things considered, either way you slice it, somethings up with whats being offered in christianity
Something is up with what is offered, its called Salvation and I hope that one day you accept it because regardless of your opinion God sent the Final Sacrifice for Sin ( I will acknowledge Ez when I get home) in Christ just as He said He would and its your choice to accept or reject Him, He wont force Himself on you...
 

Kung Fu

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Islam/Quran, as the final revelation to mankind OWES it to.....mankind(kafirs, that is).....to remain consistent with history, to acknowledge and account for historical facts.

Islam may remain silent on the dirty deeds of the fathers of the faith and i can let that slide but not the above.
I already asked that question before here but wasn't afforded an answer, so am trying again. Why won't Islam acknowledge and account for the Sanctuary services, given the promiment role they played in the faith of the fathers.(ex. Aaron, Solomon)
You're being disingenuous again, Karly. I went to the page and two people answered you. You have two problems here. You're talking about the Sanctuary services as if it's fact when in reality you have no idea about it. Second, the Most High only tells us what we need to know in order to be successful in this life and the Hereafter and nothing more and nothing less because ultimately that's all that matters.

I still don't see the relevance with what you're talking about and how it applies to Islam.
 

Serveto

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Funny, in fact extraordinary, that you should ask, because, when I was writing the above, I was going to express my appreciation for the priesthood you just mentioned. I haven't read the link, but do note, as well, and if only as a side note, that the "blessing" of Melchizedek with Abraham was bloodless, involving only bread and wine, the "blood of the grape," and this, as I recall, was repeated in the Last Supper.
 

Lady

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Funny, in fact extraordinary, that you should ask, because, when I was writing the above, I was going to express my appreciation for the priesthood you just mentioned. I haven't read the link, but do note, as well, and if only as a side note, that the "blessing" of Melchizedek with Abraham was bloodless, involving only bread and wine, the "blood of the grape," and this, as I recall, was repeated in the Last Supper.
There is a lot of theology in that "bread and wine" offering that sits so well with you. If you follow that trail, I will be interested to know where (and to Whom) you are led!
 

Karlysymon

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You're being disingenuous again, Karly. I went to the page and two people answered you. You have two problems here. You're talking about the Sanctuary services as if it's fact when in reality you have no idea about it. Second, the Most High only tells us what we need to know in order to be successful in this life and the Hereafter and nothing more and nothing less because ultimately that's all that matters.

I still don't see the relevance with what you're talking about and how it applies to Islam.
No. Iam not lying. No one answered my questions in that regard. So i don't understand anything about the Sanctuary service....care to enlighten me?
And why did i bring it up? You started a thread about Ransom, a topic of relevance to Christianity but not to Islam. Everyone in the thread has been talking about shedding of blood/atonement/substitutionary punishment and where does it come from?

Do you realise what you're even asking me? That the sanctuary services aren't based in fact? Was the Jewish priesthood a fact or a fable? You always talk about how Islam and Judaism have more in common than Christianity.
So, is this fact or fable?

The arch of Titus depicting loot from the Temple (70ad) and that is the golden lampstand (Menorah) with the sacred table.

So here you have the Romans and the Torah in agreement on the existence of these things and yet the Quran is silent on them. Titus and his men had no reason to lie about such things. Its only fair that the 'final revelation' lives up to that claim. That's all we are asking.

@Serveto
The priests weren't beyond corruption, its a fact i mean, weren't they responsible for Christ's death?
My contention is, Islam should *acknowledge* this aspect given how central it was to the faith of progenitors. But as things stand, to acknowledge is to account for.

Even if Melchizedek's blessing was bloodless, the idea of a priest is still foreign to Islam.
 

Kung Fu

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No. Iam not lying. No one answered my questions in that regard. So i don't understand anything about the Sanctuary service....care to enlighten me?
And why did i bring it up? You started a thread about Ransom, a topic of relevance to Christianity but not to Islam. Everyone in the thread has been talking about shedding of blood/atonement/substitutionary punishment and where does it come from?

Do you realise what you're even asking me? That the sanctuary services aren't based in fact? Was the Jewish priesthood a fact or a fable? You always talk about how Islam and Judaism have more in common than Christianity.
So, is this fact or fable?

The arch of Titus depicting loot from the Temple (70ad) and that is the golden lampstand (Menorah) with the sacred table.

So here you have the Romans and the Torah in agreement on the existence of these things and yet the Quran is silent on them. Titus and his men had no reason to lie about such things. Its only fair that the 'final revelation' lives up to that claim. That's all we are asking.

@Serveto
The priests weren't beyond corruption, its a fact i mean, weren't they responsible for Christ's death?
My contention is, Islam should *acknowledge* this aspect given how central it was to the faith of progenitors. But as things stand, to acknowledge is to account for.

Even if Melchizedek's blessing was bloodless, the idea of a priest is still foreign to Islam.
They answered you but you didn't like the answer. Let me make it simple for. What does the idea of "priest" have anything to do with with living a successful life here so that you can be successful in the life Hereafter, which is what Islam is all about? There is no claim to live up to if that claim is irrelevant to what truly matters to mankind. Again what's your point in all of this because I'm not following?

Of course, God needing a ransom isn't part of the Islamic faith and that's because it doesn't make any kind of logical sense, hence why I didn't mention Islam. The Most High, who is omnipotent, doesn't need a ransom because if He did He wouldn't be "All Powerful". This is isn't rocket science, Karly.
 

Kung Fu

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You always talk about how Islam and Judaism have more in common than Christianity.
That's because they do. Both eat kosher/halal, both worship One God, both don't believe in human gods, and etc. But the most important point is, which is central to our salvation, that we worship and obey ONE GOD. At the end of the day that's what everything boils down to both Israelites and Muslims.
 

Karlysymon

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That's because they do. Both eat kosher/halal, both worship One God, both don't believe in human gods, and etc. But the most important point is, which is central to our salvation, that we worship and obey ONE GOD. At the end of the day that's what everything boils down to both Israelites and Muslims.
That is as far as you both hold in commonality.

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12358-priest

Shortly before the forum went down, Lisa gladly informed us (and @Serveto will remember this) that a redheifer had been found. You can update yourself as to its purpose (Numbers 19:1-10)
Now that Jerusalem is set to be the capital, you shouldn't have a problem if the Al Aqsa is razed so the temple can be built. I remember you quoting Maimonides to the effect that .....synagogues serve the muslim well if he can't find a mosque.
As you are well aware, once the temple is erected, they plan to re-instate the sanctuary service (as in blood sacrifices). You'd do well to enquire of the Rabbis and the officiating priests (iam sure they'll have twitter accounts) as to their office :D .

Also, on the wiki page for the temple, i found this:

According to Muslim scholar Seyyed Hossein Nasr, professor of Islamic Studies at George
Washington University,
Jerusalem has the significance as a holy site for Muslims primarily in three ways......The third
factor, says Nasr, is the Muslim belief in the Second Coming of Christ to Bait-ul-Maqdis (i.e. Temple in Jerusalem).


I thought that was interesting. Do you agree/subscribe to that belief? If so, and as i stated elsewhere, its in Muslims interests to support the rebuilding effort....you know...fulfill the prophecies? And it also undermines all this conflict surrounding the temple mount.
 

Kung Fu

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That is as far as you both hold in commonality.
That's the only thing that's of any great importance to Muslims and Israelites. Everything else that differentiates us are raisins compared to the belief that the Most High is One and that nothing unto Him is even remotely comparable. If Muslims and Israelites had 99% commonality but yet both believed as you believe it would all be for nothing.

I thought that was interesting. Do you agree/subscribe to that belief? If so, and as i stated elsewhere, its in Muslims interests to support the rebuilding effort....you know...fulfill the prophecies? And it also undermines all this conflict surrounding the temple mount.
As far as I'm concerned and the Most High is concerned via the Quran the Israelites have broken their covenant when they decided to try and crucify the Messiah. Also, as KM put it the Jews living in Israel are not the real Israelites but impostors. I'm willing to bet the blacks and Palestinians that are discriminated against within Israel are most likely the real Israelites, which is why they're so heavily persecuted by the impostors. So no, I don't support anything the current Israel does because they're impostors.
 

Karlysymon

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As far as I'm concerned and the Most High is concerned via the Quran the Israelites have broken their covenant when they decided to try and crucify the Messiah. Also, as KM put it the Jews living in Israel are not the real Israelites but impostors. I'm willing to bet the blacks and Palestinians that are discriminated against within Israel are most likely the real Israelites, which is why they're so heavily persecuted by the impostors. So no, I don't support anything the current Israel does because they're impostors.
The prophecy has to hold, according to the good professor. So the real Israelites need to standup and rebuild the temple. But its a Sunni belief, not Shia. Right?
 

Kung Fu

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The prophecy has to hold, according to the good professor. So the real Israelites standup and rebuild the temple. But its a Sunni belief, not Shia. Right?
Nothing has to hold because prophecy is a tricky thing. What we think happens sometimes doesn't happen at all or happens but not in the way we think it should have. You also have to remember that you're talking to a Muslim and I don't necessarily believe the Bible to be telling the truth due to it's unreliability.

I'm not a Sunni or Shia. I'm simply a Muslim who follows the Quran, the authenticated and logical sayings and practices of the prophet(pbuh), science, and mathematics.
 

Karlysymon

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Nothing has to hold because prophecy is a tricky thing. What we think happens sometimes doesn't happen at all or happens but not in the way we think it should have. You also have to remember that you're talking to a Muslim and I don't necessarily believe the Bible to be telling the truth due to it's unreliability.

I'm not a Sunni or Shia. I'm simply a Muslim who follows the Quran, the authenticated and logical sayings and practices of the prophet(pbuh), science, and mathematics.
What Nasr is talking about, is it explicitly stated that way in the Quran? If so, you could post the verse for us.
 

Kung Fu

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What Nasr is talking about, is it explicitly stated that way in the Quran? If so, you could post the verse for us.
What exactly do you want me to show you in terms of Quranic verses relating to what this Nasr person says/believes?
 

DesertRose

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The prophecy has to hold, according to the good professor. So the real Israelites need to standup and rebuild the temple. But its a Sunni belief, not Shia. Right?
That is shia belief (perhaps) we believe the temple for God is the bait al maqdis the Al Aqsa Mosque.

:) Found it interesting.
source: https://www.islamicity.org/5640/jesus-will-return/
JESUS
IN THE RISALE-I NUR COLLECTION

In the Risale-I Nur collection, a Quranic commentary written by Said Nursi, also known as Bediuzzaman (the Wonder of the Age), one of the greatest Islamic scholars of the 20th century, there is extensive reference to the end of time and the second coming of Jesus
.

It is a fact that today Muslim communities embrace different thoughts. However, a great number of Muslims from various cultures agree that Bediuzzaman was one of the greatest scholars of the 13th century (Muslim Calendar). That is why the detailed descriptions of the end of time by Bediuzzaman are of great importance for all Muslims.

In his explanations regarding the end of time, Bediuzzaman states that two philosophical movements, described as serious endeavors to establish disbelief, would cause disorder on earth. The first one will be a covert threat to Islam while the second class of movements will openly reject the existence of Allah. The second current is materialist and naturalist understandings that affirm that matter is an absolute being, which has existed since eternity and which will exist until eternity. The two movements further hold that living beings accidentally came into existence from non-living matter. (Naturalism is known as the philosophical dimension of Darwin's theory of evolution.)

This definition surely provides the basis of all ideologies denying the existence of Allah. Since early times, materialists opposed all religions revealed by Allah, fought against their supporters, oppressed people, waged wars and opened the way to every sort of degeneration in society.

Jesus
, too, in his second coming to earth, will struggle against these materialist and naturalist movements and, by the will of Allah, will gain victory over them. Bediuzzaman draws attention in his books to the materialist movement:

The Second Current: A tyrannical current born of Naturalist and Materialist philosophy will gradually become strong and spread at the end of time by means of materialist philosophy, reaching such a degree that it denies God. [2]

Bediuzzaman heralds that Jesus
will come to earth at such a period when disbelief will dominate the earth. As stated in the following words of Bediuzzaman, in his second coming to earth, Jesus
will rule with the Quran and eliminate all bigotry in Christianity. Uniting against disbelief, Christians who have embraced Islam and Muslims will prevail over the disbelieving ideologies by the guidance of the Quran. The related section in the Risale-i Nur follows:

At that point when the current appears to be very strong, the religion of true Christianity, which comprises the collective personality of Jesus
, will emerge. That is, it will descend from the skies of Divine Mercy. Present Christianity will be purified in the face of that reality; it will cast off superstition and distortion, and unite with the truths of Islam. Christianity will in effect be transformed into a sort of Islam. Following the Quran, the collective personality of Christianity will be in the rank of follower, and Islam, in that of leader. True religion will become a mighty force as a result of its joining it. Although defeated before the atheistic current while separate, Christianity and Islam will have the capability to defeat and rout it as a result of their union. Then the person of Jesus
, who is present with his human body in the world of the heavens, will come to lead the current of true religion, as, relying on the promise of One Powerful Over All Things, the Bringer of Sure News has said. Since he has told of it, it is true, and since the One Powerful Over All Things has promised it, He will certainly bring it about. [3]

In all his descriptions of the second coming, Bediuzzaman indicates that Jesus
will remove all the systems of disbelievers in that period. He further adds that he will receive great support from Muslims. Jesus
will act as a Muslim and pray behind the imam of the Muslims, and work together with the right-acting people from the Islamic world, and will assume leadership in spreading the Quran and its teachings, and remove the ongoing violence of the system of the disbelievers:

It will be the truly pious followers of Jesus
who will kill the gigantic collective personality of materialism and irreligion which the Dajjal (the false messiah) will form - for the Dajjal will be killed by Jesus'
sword - and destroy his ideas and disbelief, which are atheistic. Those truly pious Christians will blend the essence of true Christianity with the essence of Islam and rout the Dajjal with their combined strength, in effect killing him. The narration: "Jesus
will come and will perform the obligatory prayers behind the Mahdi and follow him," alludes to this union, and to the sovereignty of the Quran and its being followed. [4]
 
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Daciple

Star
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
1,157
What does the idea of "priest" have anything to do with with living a successful life here so that you can be successful in the life Hereafter, which is what Islam is all about? There is no claim to live up to if that claim is irrelevant to what truly matters to mankind. Again what's your point in all of this because I'm not following?

Of course, God needing a ransom isn't part of the Islamic faith and that's because it doesn't make any kind of logical sense, hence why I didn't mention Islam. The Most High, who is omnipotent, doesn't need a ransom because if He did He wouldn't be "All Powerful". This is isn't rocket science, Karly.
What does seem to be Rocket Science for you or anyone else on this thread to grasp is the actual question no one is answering and the essence of everything she has said, which is also what I have written about extensively. I dont expect you to acknowledge it in an intellectually honesty way because you never seem capable of doing that when speaking with Christians, but the basic premise both her and I are speaking about is the essential aspect of Substitutionary Atonement as practiced in the Temple by the Jews for 1000's of years. This is a Historical and Biblical Fact that Islam nor any other Religious Ideology incorporates into its underlying tenets.

If Islam was actually a follow up to the Religion of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses and all the other Patriarchs, if Islam was the Worship of YHWH their God then it stands as not only reason but simple fact that the aspect most central to their Culture as mandated by YHWH, which is Sacrifice for Sin, aka Blood Atonement, would be somehow dealt with or at the very very minimum spoken about, however in Islam as you so joyfully show, it has no concept or place. It is as tho the god of Islam cares not about Blood Atonement, whereas the God of Israel, the Patriarchs, of Jesus 100% cares about Blood Atonement considering all the Patriarchs practiced Blood Atonement of Sacrifice and YHWH Himself created a Law detailing the purpose of such a thing.

You feint to show that somehow Islam and Judaism have more in common with each other than with Christianity when clearly it doesnt, because if it had ANY semblance of commonality with Judaism it would acknowledge and deal with the necessity of Sacrifice for Sin. Literally the ONLY thing it slightly resembles is the idea of Dietary Law (which they are actually wholly different and no Jew on Earth would eat Halal Food as it is Food prepared to a false god in their eyes) and even then they dont agree on all foods and how they are to be prepared. Thats it, this nonsense about worshiping One God is again willful ignorance as it has been stated a billion times over Christians only Worship One God. In Judaism the act of Sacrifice for Sin is necessary regardless of what KM likes to say in his hypocritical stance of Obedience to the Law aka the same Law that mandates Sacrifice for Sin.

What Karly keeps trying to point out is that the ONE superficial commonality you can point to in Islam (Diet Law which again is actually different between Islam and Judaism which if it was the same God and the follow up of the same God they ought to be IDENTICAL) in no way can compare to the fact that Islam in no way acknowledges the essential ideology of Sacrifice for Sin that was practiced in Israel towards the God of Abraham et al for 1000's of years. As she stated there isnt even a Priesthood mentioned in Islam which again makes zero sense if it is the follow up to Judaism or the God of Abraham that clearly mandates a Priesthood. However in Christianity the most essential doctrines of Judaism are actually dealt with, spoken about and more over are the SAME essential doctrines found in Judaism. The ONLY one that doesnt weigh heavily would be the Dietary Laws, yet that is actually ADDRESSED and spoken of by Christianity vs totally ignore it and then act like it never mattered or exists such as is the case for Islam concerning the most essential doctrine laid out by YHWH.

I wrote a whole big post that you ignored, probably because you helped spark the Gospel going out thru it and I credited you for it, thanks again, that showed just how many animals were Sacrificed in a year just by the state of Israel. The central aspect of Blood Atonement is clearly spelled out not only in the Law of Moses, but also in practice by the State of Israel. Islam and ALL other Religions completely ignore this, however in Christianity this is a central Doctrine just as it was to the Patriarchs. Jesus Christ IS the High Priest, therefore Christianity continues on the ideology of Priesthood as mandated by YHWH the God of Abraham. Jesus Christ IS the Sacrifice, therefore Christianity continues on the ideology of Sacrifice as mandated by YHWH the God of Abraham. Jesus Christ IS the Blood Atonement for Sin, therefore Christianity continues the ideology of Blood Atonement as mandated by YHWH the God of Abraham.

Just as these 3 ideologies were the Central Doctrines of the Religion of Abraham and the Patriarchs so too are these 3 ideologies the Central Doctrines of Christianity, why? Because Christ is the FULFILLMENT of everything spoken of in the Old Testament. We can clearly see that Islam CAN NOT be the follow up to the Religion established by Abraham and the Patriarchs because the god of Islam does NOT care in the least about the thing that was MOST IMPORTANT to the God of Israel, YWHW. YHWH is NOT the god of Islam, and Islam does not worship the God of Israel or the Patriarchs, if it did then 100% there would be inclusion of the systematic influence of Sacrifice for Sin...

YHWH stated that He would send someone to bear the Sin of the World, He created an entire Culture and Nation that put the Sacrifice of the Innocent in place of the Guilty for Redemption of Sin. Every Holy Day of YHWH involves Sacrifice, in fact the MOST HOLIEST DAY of the God of Abraham is 100% founded and revolves around the Sacrifice of the Innocent for the Atonement of Sins!!! Its called Yom Kippour which means what? The Day of ATONEMENT!!! All of the Holy Days point to Christ, everything that happened in the Temple points to Christ, in fact the set up and everything IN the Temple points to Christ, the traditions held during the Holy Days point to Christ, all the Old Testament Scriptures point to Christ, everything having anything to do with the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob all point to Christ coming to be the Final Sacrifice for all of mankind to be the Atonement and the method by which all Sin is purged!!

KM made an argument earlier where he said:

I dont fear being guilty because God didnt set up for me a pries t,temple

Heres the problem with his own argument and one in which he will have to acknowledge one day, hopefully while he is still alive. If God has set up a Priest for Him in a Temple that made Sacrifices on his behalf and he rejected the Priest, the Temple and the Sacrifice, well then he is guilty. The facts are God has set up a Priest for him, He set one up for you and me and everyone else. God also set up a Temple, one made without hands, for him and you and me. And that Priest has made a Sacrifice on his behalf, and my and your behalf as well.

Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Jesus IS his High Priest, and mine and yours...

Heb 6:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Jesus IS the Sacrifice for his your and mine Sin...

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Jesus entered into the Holiest of Holies in the Temple in Heaven and placed the Blood on the Altar for the Redemption of Sin for him, and for you and for I as well!!! If you understand the most Holiest Day in Israel, the Day of ATONEMENT, then you would understand just how significant what it is that Scriptures is saying here. During the Day of ATONEMENT, the High Priest who NEVER could enter into the Holiest of Holies would go on that day and that day ALONE to sprinkle Blood on the Mercy Seat for the ATONEMENT of everyone. Jesus Himself entered into the REAL Holiest of Holies in Heave and He Himself applied the Blood for the ATONEMENT of everyone!! Praise the Lord!!!

So the reality of the sitituation is that KM does have a High Priest who did come and did present a Sacrifice and placed the Blood of the Sacrifice upon the Altar for his Atonement, and just as KM knows if he rejected the High Priest doing such a thing during the temple era he would be guilty before God, so too it stands that since all has been done in accordance with the Law by the High Priest in the Temple then since he rejects it he now stands guilty before God. That also goes for you too Kung Fu and every other person on Earth who rejects the Offering given for them.

The Good News is that EVERYONE has the opportunity to accept the Atonement that was made for them, they dont have to have certain linage, they dont have to be some person of prestige, they dont have to try and work for it by doing this or that Religious Task, that you know you cant keep up forever, every day, you dont have to do anything at all other than acknowledge that you are a Sinner in need of Redemption and call out by Faith and Believe in Christ that He has done just what He said He would do for you!!!

That He has done everything the Old Testament said He would come to do, that He would fulfill what the ENTIRE CULTURE OF ISRAEL was founded around, which is that He came to die on the Cross to take upon Himself all the Wrath you and I deserve and that He became the Perfect Lamb that was Sacrificed on the Cross and that He Himself went into Heaven into the Holiest of Hoilies and placed the Blood upon the Altar and He has made ATONEMENT for you and I and everyone else!!! Praise the Lord, Jesus is so Great and Wonderful, Jesus is so loving, I am so very thankful for Christ and knowing without a DOUBT that all of Sins are Forgiven!!!!

All of you can have that same assurance today!!! All of you can experience the wonderful joy of a knowing you will never go to Hell because of what Christ did for you!!! All of you can experience and know first hand the One True God and enter into a Personal Relationship with Him today, where you can cry out to Him and know He has literally experienced everything you are going thru Himself!!! That God isnt some far off God looking down to far out of reach to understand exactly the temptations you are facing, and how to overcome them. That God isnt so far off that He cant understand the fear you are plagued with at times in life, that He cant truly know the evils of the World that beset you!!!

I hope someone truly begins to search out Christ in their lives to understand His great Love and come to have that Personal Relationship today, there is nothing better in life that knowing Jesus Christ as your Personal Savior!!! I know Him and more importantly I know He knows me, because He called me by name the day He saved me!!! Thank you Jesus!!!!
 

Yahda

Veteran
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
711
Come on. If God Himself says not to worry about a sacrifice and that it is better to OBEY ( feel free to note my previous post for scripture references), why does one feel the need to force a sacrifice ???

I’ll tell you why. There’s a need for scripture to fit ones beliefs when that should never be the case in seeking understanding. Some of the things we were indoctrinated to believe does not line up with the words of The Most High God. If we are not willing to let those things go, obviously we are not OBEYING the words of TMHG.

Remember he said it is better to OBEY his voice and that he did not speak with the ancestors of his chosen people in regard to a sacrifice. He said he did not reprove them because of their sacrifices. He flat out said he don’t need your sacrifice because the earth and everything in it already belongs to Him.

Why force the idea of a sacrifice ? Things that make you go hmmm.
 

elsbet

Superstar
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,122
No. Iam not lying. No one answered my questions in that regard. So i don't understand anything about the Sanctuary service....care to enlighten me?
And why did i bring it up? You started a thread about Ransom, a topic of relevance to Christianity but not to Islam. Everyone in the thread has been talking about shedding of blood/atonement/substitutionary punishment and where does it come from?

Do you realise what you're even asking me? That the sanctuary services aren't based in fact? Was the Jewish priesthood a fact or a fable? You always talk about how Islam and Judaism have more in common than Christianity.
So, is this fact or fable?

The arch of Titus depicting loot from the Temple (70ad) and that is the golden lampstand (Menorah) with the sacred table.

So here you have the Romans and the Torah in agreement on the existence of these things and yet the Quran is silent on them. Titus and his men had no reason to lie about such things. Its only fair that the 'final revelation' lives up to that claim. That's all we are asking.

@Serveto
The priests weren't beyond corruption, its a fact i mean, weren't they responsible for Christ's death?
My contention is, Islam should *acknowledge* this aspect given how central it was to the faith of progenitors. But as things stand, to acknowledge is to account for.

Even if Melchizedek's blessing was bloodless, the idea of a priest is still foreign to Islam.
He never linked his claims when I requested, either.
 

elsbet

Superstar
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,122
Come on. If God Himself says not to worry about a sacrifice and that it is better to OBEY ( feel free to note my previous post for scripture references), why does one feel the need to force a sacrifice ???

I’ll tell you why. There’s a need for scripture to fit ones beliefs when that should never be the case in seeking understanding. Some of the things we were indoctrinated to believe does not line up with the words of The Most High God. If we are not willing to let those things go, obviously we are not OBEYING the words of TMHG.

Remember he said it is better to OBEY his voice and that he did not speak with the ancestors of his chosen people in regard to a sacrifice. He said he did not reprove them because of their sacrifices. He flat out said he don’t need your sacrifice because the earth and everything in it already belongs to Him.

Why force the idea of a sacrifice ? Things that make you go hmmm.
No, He didn't . He said He would rather we obey.. like most parents would rather their children just obey in the first place. That's common sense-- why instruct the proper way to penance, in such detail, if it didn't matter?
 
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