Ransom to Whom?

[Red Sky at Morning]

The context of Job 9, as far as I can read and understand it, doesnt explain any dilemma between God and man. It is simply talking about the power of God and Job or man's relationship to that power. In verse 32 it is saying there is no trial between God and man and no mediator that can lay hands on both God and man. Do you see different? As well, by definition, every prophet was a mediator...

:a person who attempts to make people involved in a conflict come to an agreement; a go-between.

The most effective mediators share things in common with both parties...

 

[KoncreteMind]

I wonder what you might make of Moses and the Bronze Serpent? (Biblically speaking ;-)

After going back and looking at it in context, Im not sure whats there to make of it. Is it the "serpent" usage? If so, why Jesus tell you to be wise as a serpent if serpents were automatically bad? Why would God have the staffs of Aaron and Moses turn to serpents? This is me taking a stab at what you might be referring to. What do you make of it?.

P.s. clearly Moses sinned when he murdered the Egyptian - will his name therefore be blotted out of God's book?

Well this is you saying he sinned, but did God account it to him as sin? Biblically speaking that is there any verse that shows God accounting that act as a sin?

 

[KoncreteMind]

The most effective mediators share things in common with both parties...

I cant knock that opinion. But we're talking about the scriptures where it should be about whats written and not opinion. Whats written says that the one who sins against God is the one blotted out of His book. Of course since there are simultaneous verses that sins can be forgiven (even without the use of sacrifice) theres that too but at the end of the day, that statement cant be true, while at the same time another statement saying that Jesus came to die so we wouldnt be blotted out of the book...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

After going back and looking at it in context, Im not sure whats there to make of it. Is it the "serpent" usage? If so, why Jesus tell you to be wise as a serpent if serpents were automatically bad? Why would God have the staffs of Aaron and Moses turn to serpents? This is me taking a stab at what you might be referring to. What do you make of it?.



Well this is you saying he sinned, but did God account it to him as sin? Biblically speaking that is there any verse that shows God accounting that act as a sin?

John 3...

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[elsbet]

John 3...

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

You, sir, are on fire, tonight.

In the best possible way, of course.

 

[KoncreteMind]

John 3...

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Im aware of what the NT says but dont really see how it addresses the point about Moses not being told he was blemished or a "sinner" as a reason he couldnt do what Jesus came to do but instead being told that the one who sins is the one who is blotted out of the book. Not sure what you're getting at with this

 

[DesertRose]

The most effective mediators share things in common with both parties...

Hi Red, this guy shares a unique perspective on Islam:

 

[Daciple]

Of course since there are simultaneous verses that sins can be forgiven (even without the use of sacrifice) theres that too but at the end of the day, that statement cant be true, while at the same time another statement saying that Jesus came to die so we wouldnt be blotted out of the book...

So you acknowledge that there are Scriptures that show by the shedding of Blood and the exact wording of Atonement is within them, people can be forgiven by Sins, yet still cling to this one verse as definitive proof that Jesus cant be the Savior?

So if we take that one verse and make it the end all be all, then who isnt blotted out of the Book? Also do you know exactly which Book is being spoken about here? Also was everyone that participated in the rebellion die then? Also was God speaking of this specific event alone or to all of mankind when He said those words to Moses?

Logic dictates if you personally are going to take the stance that ignores forgiveness of Sin and Atonement by the shedding of Blood and cling to this one verse as the end all be all of how God deals with Sin, then since we all have sinned against God save Jesus then all of us will be blotted out of whatever Book it is God is speaking about here. Is this what you actually believe?

 

[elsbet]

So you acknowledge that there are Scriptures that show by the shedding of Blood and the exact wording of Atonement is within them, people can be forgiven by Sins, yet still cling to this one verse as definitive proof that Jesus cant be the Savior?

So if we take that one verse and make it the end all be all, then who isnt blotted out of the Book? Also do you know exactly which Book is being spoken about here? Also was everyone that participated in the rebellion die then? Also was God speaking of this specific event alone or to all of mankind when He said those words to Moses?

Logic dictates if you personally are going to take the stance that ignores forgiveness of Sin and Atonement by the shedding of Blood and cling to this one verse as the end all be all of how God deals with Sin, then since we all have sinned against God save Jesus then all of us will be blotted out of whatever Book it is God is speaking about here. Is this what you actually believe?

I like this, Daciple.

Exposition, commentary, cross references.. @KoncreteMind have you looked to any of these? They are available to us, and imo, they are invaluable for bringing clarity to the questions you have, alongside the ones posed above.

Exodus 32:32-- this is just a start.

 

[Glad 2 know]

It's commendable that so many of you are searching for answers and I have to tell you to continue and not give up. Many of you employ your reasoning and common sense and logic to determine what is right and feels right. While I do see many good answers, I feel there needs to be more research on these spiritual matters. Many times we tend to believe what is being told or taught to us without really digging deeper. While is is true that the Bible is the source of answers, we do have to read it and study so we can get those valuable answers. it After all, God doesn't us to navigate through life without giving us a guide. I like that some answers are concise and to the point and don't deviate too much from the topic. I do have to quote scriptures to explain my answer so here it goes. I also urge you to Study the Bible and do research that is in accordance with what the Bible says.

Adam was here on earth for a purpose. (what purpose? find out) Sadly since Adam and Eve went against that intended purpose, they perished. They had been given eternal life but threw it away and died as a result. Adam perfect man with free will to do as he chose. Because God didn't abandon his original purpose for humankind, he had to send his son Jesus to pay for that life and purpose that Adam lost. Adam lost his life and threw away our original purpose, Jesus willingly came to give his life to repay that lost life and purpose. Jesus restored the hope that was lost. John 3:16, 17 So we could all benefit from it, whoever chooses to do so of course. John 17:3

The more you study the Bible the more you can come to know God and understand the way he thinks. In his perfect love and justice he made the decision to give us that opportunity to enjoy what Adam and Eve and all humanity were originally intended to.

 

[KoncreteMind]

So you acknowledge that there are Scriptures that show by the shedding of Blood and the exact wording of Atonement is within them, people can be forgiven by Sins, yet still cling to this one verse as definitive proof that Jesus cant be the Savior?

Shedding of ANIMAL blood. Not human. And even with that, the shedding of blood was not the ONLY way to obtain forgiveness. So even if we go with blood being what obtains forgiveness, that was blood of an animal. Where in scripture does it suggest that the blood of a human can obtain forgiveness? Of course speaking about the OT here...

So if we take that one verse and make it the end all be all, then who isnt blotted out of the Book? Also do you know exactly which Book is being spoken about here? Also was everyone that participated in the rebellion die then? Also was God speaking of this specific event alone or to all of mankind when He said those words to Moses?

Well why wouldnt that verse be the end all be all when we're discussing the topic of someone coming to die for another's sins? Moses tried to die for the sins of other people and was told no that their sins belong to them (in a roundabout way). While you hold the position that the One who told Moses that, is the same one that later came and told everyone he died for everybody so they wouldnt be blotted out of His book? How can both be true at the same time?

And since I dont have access to the book, Im not sure why you ask me who is or isnt blotted out of the book.

Logic dictates if you personally are going to take the stance that ignores forgiveness of Sin and Atonement by the shedding of Blood and cling to this one verse as the end all be all of how God deals with Sin, then since we all have sinned against God save Jesus then all of us will be blotted out of whatever Book it is God is speaking about here. Is this what you actually believe?

No thats not what I believe since the scriptures dont suggest that shedding of blood is the ONLY way to obtain forgiveness. Thats a lazy interpretation that I've come across, but its not what the scriptures actually say. And even if they did say that, as I said before, its ANIMAL blood. Not human. So unless we're adding sheep/goat to Jesus being god/man, I dont see how it applies to obtaining forgiveness

As God says to Moses, He has mercy on who He has mercy on. And if He spoke highly of David, who committed murder and adultery, then I think that the bar isnt in the heavens as far as what God expects from us...

 

[KoncreteMind]

I like this, Daciple.

Exposition, commentary, cross references.. @KoncreteMind have you looked to any of these? They are available to us, and imo, they are invaluable for bringing clarity to the questions you have, alongside the ones posed above.

Exodus 32:32-- this is just a start.

Have I looked into exposition,commentary, cross references? In the past I have and wasnt met with what I saw as being solid answers

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Shedding of ANIMAL blood. Not human. And even with that, the shedding of blood was not the ONLY way to obtain forgiveness. So even if we go with blood being what obtains forgiveness, that was blood of an animal. Where in scripture does it suggest that the blood of a human can obtain forgiveness? Of course speaking about the OT here...



Well why wouldnt that verse be the end all be all when we're discussing the topic of someone coming to die for another's sins? Moses tried to die for the sins of other people and was told no that their sins belong to them (in a roundabout way). While you hold the position that the One who told Moses that, is the same one that later came and told everyone he died for everybody so they wouldnt be blotted out of His book? How can both be true at the same time?

And since I dont have access to the book, Im not sure why you ask me who is or isnt blotted out of the book.



No thats not what I believe since the scriptures dont suggest that shedding of blood is the ONLY way to obtain forgiveness. Thats a lazy interpretation that I've come across, but its not what the scriptures actually say. And even if they did say that, as I said before, its ANIMAL blood. Not human. So unless we're adding sheep/goat to Jesus being god/man, I dont see how it applies to obtaining forgiveness

As God says to Moses, He has mercy on who He has mercy on. And if He spoke highly of David, who committed murder and adultery, then I think that the bar isnt in the heavens as far as what God expects from us...

Leviticus 17:11?

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

 

[KoncreteMind]

Leviticus 17:11?

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

Now what KIND of blood was spoken of in Leviticus? Animal or human?

And in Leviticus (not to mention Exodus, Psalms, Isaiah, Deuteronomy, Ezekiel, Daniel etc...) are there other ways, other than the shedding of blood, to obtain forgiveness/make atonement for sin?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Now what KIND of blood was spoken of in Leviticus? Animal or human?

And in Leviticus (not to mention Exodus, Psalms, Isaiah, Deuteronomy, Ezekiel, Daniel etc...) are there other ways, other than the shedding of blood, to obtain forgiveness/make atonement for sin?

I suspect the alternative (human sacrifice) would be against one of the ten commandments ;-)

 

[Daciple]

Where in scripture does it suggest that the blood of a human can obtain forgiveness?

Where in the OT does it preclude that Human Blood can NOT obtain forgiveness. If Animal Blood was able to cover (not fully redeem because it was needed daily) Sin temporarily, how much more so the Blood of He who is Perfect and Divine?

Well why wouldnt that verse be the end all be all when we're discussing the topic of someone coming to die for another's sins?

Because then everyone is blotted out of the Book? No one ever will be redeemed...

How can both be true at the same time?

I mean it was already given to you, Moses death wouldnt be able to cover their Sins because he didnt meet the requirements laid down in the Law. What is said about all the Sin Offerings? I quoted many of them already for example:

Lev 4:32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.

Do you believe that Moses was without blemish?

And since I dont have access to the book, Im not sure why you ask me who is or isnt blotted out of the book

I didnt ask if you know who is or isnt, I asked which Book specifically God is speaking about here. God has many Books, which Book do you believe is being spoken about here, knowing which one it is would be helpful in understanding the intentions behind the statement...

Thats a lazy interpretation that I've come across, but its not what the scriptures actually say.

So why on earth was it ever even instituted by God if it doesnt hold a massive importance? I made a post all about how central Sacrifice was to God, why would He go to such great lengths to set up the ENTIRE Culture of Israel around it, if it doesnt play a massively huge part in His plan for Redemption?

You keep saying its not what Scriptures say concerning Sin, but it actually does, I've quoted it. Why if you feint to be this strict follower of the Old Testament do you not put the same emphasis upon the need for Blood Atonement for Sin as God Himself did in the Old Testament?

What I see is you downplaying the fact that Blood Atonement for Sin is the Central aspect of Forgiveness set out by God and mandated over and over in His Law because you know the second you agree that Blood Atonement is the Central aspect of Forgiveness of Sin you will have to admit that Jesus is the only possible solution to allow God to keep His Law as He mandated and still not hold us responsible individually to have Sacrifices performed for the Atonement of our Sins.

Heres the facts, God mandated Sacrifice for Forgiveness of Sin, its clearly spelled out in His Law and it was the entire overriding aspect of Israeli Culture and Life, you can not have Forgiveness of Sin without the shedding of Blood for Atonement, if this was not the case then it would not have been Mandated and been the overriding aspect of Israeli Culture. No matter what you say this is fact.

Since this is fact, then what Sacrifices have been preformed for you by a Priest on your behalf to make Atonement for your Sins? If you say none (which for you at the moment is the case) then you stand guilty before God for all of your Sins. If we argue straight from the Old Testament you are condemned and have zero possibility until a Sacrifice is made for your Atonement period.

The next fact is, I and you can too, have a High Priest who has made Atonement for our Sins, who performed the mandated ritual that was given in the Law except He actually went into the Temple in Heaven and it was there that the Blood was applied. The Sacrifice met all the requirements, something Moses couldnt do, the Law was fulfilled and Sin was fully Atoned. However the Blood isnt applied to you until you actually believe, just like there was no Sacrifice for your Sin until you went and believed in what took place in the Temple of Israel.

Your free to say anything you want but facts are facts, and the facts are Blood Atonement of Sin was the central ideology of the Law and Israeli Culture, without of the shedding of Blood for your Sins you stand guilty. Either you are admitting you are guilty of Sin before God because no Sacrifices have been made for you, or you can find Forgiveness in the last and final Sacrifice of Christ, its your choice....

 

[KoncreteMind]

I suspect the alternative (human sacrifice) would be against one of the ten commandments ;-)

Yep.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

By contrast...

John 10

17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Romans 5

"6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

 

[Yahda]

Jeremiah 7:22 For when I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt I did not speak with them concerning burnt offerings or a sacrifice, BUT I did command them to OBEY me, and to obey my voice. I will be your God and you shall be my people and walk in all the ways I commanded you so that it may go well with you.

1st Samuel 15:22 Does The Lord our God take as much pleasure in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in OBEYING His voice ? Look! To OBEY is BETTER than a sacrifice.

Psalms 51:16 For in sacrifice you did not delight- otherwise I would give it to you. You do not find delight in whole burnt offerings.

Psalms 69:30 I will sing praises to the name of God and I will magnify him with thanksgiving this will please Him more than a bull.

Psalms 50:8 I did not reprove you because of your sacrifices, nor because of your whole burnt offerings that are constantly before me

I do not need to take a bull from your house, nor goats from your pens

For every wild animal of the forest is mines If I was hungry I would not tell you !!

FOR THE PRODUCTIVE LAND AND EVERYTHING IN IT IS MINES !!

Isaiah 43:3 For I am God The Holy One of Israel YOUR SAVIOR

Isaiah 43:11 I-I am God and besides ME THERE IS NO SAVIOR

Hosea 13:4 But I am God from the land of Egypt you knew no God EXCEPT ME and besides me THERE IS NO SAVIOR

Isaiah 42:8 I am God that is my name

I GIVE MY GLORY TO NO ONE ELSE

NOR MY PRAISE TO GRAVEN IMAGES

( but hey what Christian actually listen to God and OBEY his voice ? moving on)

Isaiah 43:25 I, I am the One who is blotting out your transgressions ( Israel, the people of The Most High God sins, not everyone) for my own sake and I will not remember your sins.

Isaiah 44:21 Remember these things O jacob and you O Israel, for you are my servant I formed you and you are my servant I will not forget you.

22 I will blot out your transgressions as with a thick cloud

So the question is ? Who will OBEY the words of The Most High God, and who will lean on their own interpretations, adding too, guessing, and assuming, listening to everyone but God. God only spoke in the OT and he commanded we follow what was handed down to Moses and the prophets on numerous occasions.

The second to last thing God said to His people in Malachi 4:4 REMEMBER THE LAW OF MY SERVANT MOSES, the regulations and judgments that I commanded at Horeb FOR ALL OF ISRAEL TO “OBEY”.....The last thing was that he would send back Elijah the prophet.

Where you all get the rest of the non sense from I have no idea. Actually I do but that’s neither her nor there.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Hi again @Yahda

I was only thinking about you and previous discussions we have had while watching the following video a couple of days ago...