Ransom to Whom?

[Kung Fu]

Christians hold the view that Jesus was a ransom (correct if I'm wrong) and if he truly was a ransom who was he ransomed to?

 

[elsbet]

Himself.

 

[Kung Fu]

Himself.

Jesus ransomed himself to himself? Surely you can do better than this?

 

[Vytas]

In a nutshell - God is righteous. So sin must be punished. Jesus is ransom for our sins. I think @elsbet is right and somewhat lazy. She skipped whole explanation and simply wrote how it will look like for you. Because when you talk about trinity you refuse to acknowledge different personalities.

 

[floss]

In a nutshell - God is righteous. So sin must be punished. Jesus is ransom for our sins. I think @elsbet is right and somewhat lazy. She skipped whole explanation and simply wrote how it will look like for you. Because when you talk about trinity you refuse to acknowledge different personalities.

This guy KF doesn’t deserve any explanation from Christians here. We know why he opened this thread, he’s NOT interested in the biblical answer. I applause elsbet for her answer by not feeding the troll

 

[Kung Fu]

In a nutshell - God is righteous. So sin must be punished. Jesus is ransom for our sins. I think @elsbet is right and somewhat lazy. She skipped whole explanation and simply wrote how it will look like for you. Because when you talk about trinity you refuse to acknowledge different personalities.

You say Jesus is a ransom for sins but you never answered the question. Who was he a ransom to? Was he a ransom to the Father, the Holy Spirit, Satan, himself, to the Adam, and etc.?

 

[Kung Fu]

This guy KF doesn’t deserve any explanation from Christians here. We know why he opened this thread, he’s NOT interested in the biblical answer. I applause elsbet for her answer by not feeding the troll

Give me a biblical answer then buddy?

Elsbet's answer was illogical and made absolutely no sense. Does your belief make no sense?

 

[Vytas]

You say Jesus is a ransom for sins but you never answered the question. Who was he a ransom to? Was he a ransom to the Father, the Holy Spirit, Satan, himself, to the Adam, and etc.?

To God the Father, i imagine you will find a proof there that it means Jesus is not equal to God, waiting for your conclusions

 

[Vytas]

This guy KF doesn’t deserve any explanation from Christians here. We know why he opened this thread, he’s NOT interested in the biblical answer. I applause elsbet for her answer by not feeding the troll

Nothing wrong with it whatsoever

be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

How do you reconcile God's absolute holiness and justice with His love and mercy @Kung Fu?

When you see Him one day, what will give you confidence in His presence? Adhering (more often than not) to the requirements of Islam?

 

[elsbet]

I'm not going to hijack that thread anymore with you. So here's your reply.

-You don't want people that weren't involved in the massacre of the Natives to be held responsible.
-You believe that one person, that wasn't involved in what you or millions of others do, came to this world to be sacrificed for your sins.

^Any logical person reading the above would call that hypocritical. Perhaps Rainerann and possibly yourself should offer yourselves up for the Natives so your views on this matter can line up with your religious views lol.

I don't believe this to be a true statement, anyway:

... one person, that wasn't involved in what you or millions of others do, came to this world to be sacrificed for your sins.

I believe that through Him all things happened (literal: emerged).

 

[elsbet]

In a nutshell - God is righteous. So sin must be punished. Jesus is ransom for our sins. I think @elsbet is right and somewhat lazy. She skipped whole explanation and simply wrote how it will look like for you. Because when you talk about trinity you refuse to acknowledge different personalities.

Elsbet is at work.

Kungfu worships a different god, entirely-- please see his animated reply above my original response. That should tell you all you need to know about his motives, here.

 

[Kung Fu]

To God the Father, i imagine you will find a proof there that it means Jesus is not equal to God, waiting for your conclusions

Let me get this straight the ransom of Jesus coming and having to die for the sins of mankind was paid to the Father, right?

 

[Kung Fu]

How do you reconcile God's absolute holiness and justice with His love and mercy @Kung Fu?

When you see Him one day, what will give you confidence in His presence? Adhering (more often than not) to the requirements of Islam?

How does this have anything to do with who Jesus was a ransom to?

Christians give me different answers on this all the time so I'll ask you as well, Red. To whom was the ransom paid?

 

[Kung Fu]

I believe that through Him all things happened (literal: emerged).

God not only contradicted Himself but He also then made a mistake in which he had to send Himself to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to fix His own mistake. truth be told the deeper you go the worse it seems to get for you in terms of trying to explain your position.

 

[Vytas]

Let me get this straight the ransom of Jesus coming and having to die for the sins of mankind was paid to the Father, right?

I Don't like the way this sounds but whatever. I see your answer to elsbet...You still not getting three different persons thing. I remmeber in previous version of forums there was superb lengthy explanation of trinity...For some strange reason no one wanted to discus in that thread.. First of all he didn't made mistake. He only gave us free will, mistakes are ours, not his. Can we agree at least on this?

 

[elsbet]

God not only contradicted Himself..

How so?

 

[Kung Fu]

I Don't like the way this sounds but whatever. I see your answer to elsbet...You still not getting three different persons thing. I remmeber in previous version of forums there was superb lengthy explanation of trinity...For some strange reason no one wanted to discus in that thread.. First of all he didn't made mistake. He only gave us free will, mistakes are ours, not his. Can we agree at least on this?

Forgive me Vytas but I didn't mean for it to come off offensive. Just trying to make sure I get what you're saying. Three different persons as in three different Gods? That wouldn't make any sense. Why would the Father need a ransom to be paid to Himself when he could've have just forgiven each and every one of us without having to send His Son and have him humiliated and tortured?

I said He made a mistake because Elsbet said everything happens through God (literally) which therefore implies that God made a mistake with Adam(pbuh) which is why He had to send His Son to fix that mistake. However, I believe that the Most High does not make any mistakes and the mistakes we make are strictly of our own free will so yes, I agree with you

 

[Kung Fu]

How so?

When you claimed that everything literally happens through God it would mean God contradicted Himself with our discussion on the Natives and your worldview.

 

[Vytas]

Forgive me Vytas but I didn't mean for it to come off offensive. Just trying to make sure I get what you're saying. Three different persons as in three different Gods? That wouldn't make any sense. Why would the Father need a ransom to be paid to Himself when he could've have just forgiven each and every one of us without having to send His Son and have him humiliated and tortured?

There was nothing offensive, but lacked clarity, you could go to any possible direction from there..
When we sin we distinct ourselves from God. God and sin can't coexist. Personally me, i feel that almost on physical level...Light and darkness can't be together either one or another. I know you familiar with it because you (muslims) seek to be physically pure before seeking God. So we can't be in God's presence while we sinful.
Would judge forgive criminal just because he is sorry? Serve your sentence first! And punishment for for sin is death, written black on white in bible..God is a just judge, no exceptions. Only then we serve our sentence we can be forgiven, sentence is death though. No way out. Thats why it had to be done