Quran And Logic

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These people attack islam.....but which prophet was as successful as Mohammad SAW?

Moses had 40 years in the wilderness and still failed.
Noah had 'hundreds' of years apparently, failed.
Abraham and Lot, failed.
Joseph wasn't a leader.
David and Solomon were part of an already established religion/culture/nation.
If you take every jewish prophet..or every israelite prophet, combined, they didn't accomplish what Mohammad SAW did.

I'm not saying this from a place of ego either.
Look at how God considered Cyrus the Great, a non jewish king.
Yet it's unfathomable to some of you that God would fulfill His promise to Hagar of making Ismael a 'great nation?'

Who fulfilled this? it certainly wasn't Jesus

Isaiah 42
10 Sing to the Lord a new song,
his praise from the ends of the earth,
you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
you islands, and all who live in them.
11 Let the wilderness and its towns raise their voices;
let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice.
Let the people of Sela sing for joy;
let them shout from the mountaintops.

12 Let them give glory to the Lord
and proclaim his praise in the islands.
13 The Lord will march out like a champion,
like a warrior he will stir up his zeal;
with a shout he will raise the battle cry
and will triumph over his enemies.

14 “For a long time I have kept silent,
I have been quiet and held myself back.
But now, like a woman in childbirth,
I cry out, I gasp and pant.
15 I will lay waste the mountains and hills
and dry up all their vegetation;
I will turn rivers into islands
and dry up the pools.
16 I will lead the blind by ways they have not known,
along unfamiliar paths I will guide them;
I will turn the darkness into light before them
and make the rough places smooth.
These are the things I will do;
I will not forsake them.
17 But those who trust in idols,
who say to images, ‘You are our gods,’
will be turned back in utter shame.





"warmonger/murderer"

The Lord will march out like a champion,
like a warrior he will stir up his zeal;

with a shout he will raise the battle cry
and will triumph over his enemies.


Let the people of Sela sing for joy;
let them shout from the mountaintops.


This was done through Prophet Mohammad SAW

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sela_(Saudi_Arabia)

I find it cute that christians think this refers to a prophecy Jesus is GOING to fulfill.......
Yet the final part of this chapter says

“Hear, you deaf;
look, you blind, and see!
19 Who is blind but my servant,
and deaf like the messenger I send?
Who is blind like the one in covenant with me,
blind like the servant of the Lord?
20 You have seen many things, but you pay no attention;
your ears are open, but you do not listen.”
21 It pleased the Lord
for the sake of his righteousness
to make his law great and glorious.
22 But this is a people plundered and looted,
all of them trapped in pits
or hidden away in prisons.
They have become plunder,
with no one to rescue them;
they have been made loot,
with no one to say, “Send them back.”


meaning, the jews are judged through the previous events ie the Chapter foretold the periods of christianity and islam and the jews are held accountable in relation to 'what they have seen'

So he poured out on them his burning anger,
the violence of war.
It enveloped them in flames, yet they did not understand;
it consumed them, but they did not take it to heart.


These events were magnified in the arrival of Prophet Mohammad SAW during a period when they were awaiting their messiah and fighting the byzantines.

of course your ave christian has little knowledge of the jewish position during this time period.


basically people like @floss are morons.
 

Kung Fu

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These people attack islam.....but which prophet was as successful as Mohammad SAW?

Isaiah 42
10 Sing to the Lord a new song,
his praise from the ends of the earth,
you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
you islands, and all who live in them.
11 Let the wilderness and its towns raise their voices;
let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice.
Let the people of Sela sing for joy;
let them shout from the mountaintops.

12 Let them give glory to the Lord
and proclaim his praise in the islands.
13 The Lord will march out like a champion,
like a warrior he will stir up his zeal;
with a shout he will raise the battle cry
and will triumph over his enemies.
All I have seen from certain posters on here is throw out ad hominem fallacies and build strawmen arguments. Never once have they actually debated the tenets the Quran actually talks about and that's probably because fighting logic and reason is no easy task and would require a lot of twisting of words and deceit.

Regarding the verses you posted, I have never seen it describe someone to the T. It gives us a people, a location, and their actions. Sela, a mountain in Medina where people would literally sing upon the arrival of the prophet.
 
Joined
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Messages
3,907
All I have seen from certain posters on here is throw out ad hominem fallacies and build strawmen arguments. Never once have they actually debated the tenets the Quran actually talks about and that's probably because fighting logic and reason is no easy task and would require a lot of twisting of words and deceit.

Regarding the verses you posted, I have never seen it describe someone to the T. It gives us a people, a location, and their actions. Sela, a mountain in Medina where people would literally sing upon the arrival of the prophet.
Well we know the real mt Sinai, Mt Horeb, Midian etc are all places in present day Saudi arabia.
Yet when I was a kid they showed us a map of the sinai region.

There was one jewish historian who's name i've forgotten who wrote extensively about the 40 years in the wilderness. He basically claims that the majority of that time was spent living in Mecca.

When Moses fled egypt after murdering an egyptian, he went to Midian ie in saudi. So it's not totally unfeasible to imagine jews travelling to a place like Mecca despite it being so far.
Afterall Prophet Mohammad SAW travelled to Jordan when he was young (I think he was a boy at the time).
Similarly we all know the story of Hagar AS, the zamzam well, but told from a jewish pov she went to Paran, which is obviously Mecca.

The point im getting at here is.

You read this

Psalm 84
Blessed are those whose strength is in you,
whose hearts are set on pilgrimage.
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baka,
they make it a place of springs;
the autumn rains also cover it with pools.d]">[d]
7 They go from strength to strength,
till each appears before God in Zion.



Genesis 21
15 When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the bushes. 16 Then she went off and sat down about a bowshot away, for she thought, “I cannot watch the boy die.” And as she sat there, sheb]">[b] began to sob.

17 God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. 18 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”

19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.



you know ive read all these diff explanations of Psalm 84, ive yet to read this view.

I think psalm 84 was symbolising the journey of israel
Think about it, the temple of God didn't exist in the time of David. Solomon built it.

Even the sparrow has found a home,
and the swallow a nest for herself,
where she may have her young—
a place near your altar,


ie the 'wandering israelites'

The story goes that the israelite spent 38 years of the 40 in
Kadesh-barnea
http://www.biblemysteries.com/lectures/firstmentionofkadesh.htm
Mecca

so Psalm 84 makes perfect sense ie the journey of the wandering israelites in the wilderness to zion.
 
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Umm..but why would they 'invent' the explanation when it already existed?

I would think that Aramaic is similar to Arabic in terms of grammar and structure so 'We' could definitely refer to a single entity instead of multiple entities.
Because if you trace the line of Elohim, linguistically and mythologically, you end up with the "divine assembly" of El and has 70 sons (and/or daughters). There's no doubt it referred to a plurality of entities in pre-Judaic Semitic traditions, so there's no reason for me to assume it suddenly changed with Judaism.
 
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Because if you trace the line of Elohim, linguistically and mythologically, you end up with the "divine assembly" of El and has 70 sons (and/or daughters). There's no doubt it referred to a plurality of entities in pre-Judaic Semitic traditions, so there's no reason for me to assume it suddenly changed with Judaism.
Take for example the word 'truth'.
What's true for me is not true for someone else...the fact we both share the same term doesn't mean a thing.

When you talk about pre-judaic semitic traditions, how far can we actually go?
The basis on which we build our faith is through a core belief that the true God is the one who created ALL things.
This single point is clearly there in the old testament.

here's another way to look at it
if you start practicing various forms of divination, you communicate with the spirit world...
all it takes is a powerful jinn to convince people it is 'a god' and there are people who will believe it.
 
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Take for example the word 'truth'.
What's true for me is not true for someone else...the fact we both share the same term doesn't mean a thing.

When you talk about pre-judaic semitic traditions, how far can we actually go?
The basis on which we build our faith is through a core belief that the true God is the one who created ALL things.
This single point is clearly there in the old testament.

here's another way to look at it
if you start practicing various forms of divination, you communicate with the spirit world...
all it takes is a powerful jinn to convince people it is 'a god' and there are people who will believe it.
El had become a general term for "the God" with the monotheisation of certain cults in a polytheistic or henotheistic environment. It was originally a name designating a specific deity. El or Il in Ugarit, Phoenicia, Canaan. Ellil in Akkadia, Assyria. Enlil in Sumerian pantheons.
 
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Messages
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El had become a general term for "the God" with the monotheisation of certain cults in a polytheistic or henotheistic environment. It was originally a name designating a specific deity. El or Il in Ugarit, Phoenicia, Canaan. Ellil in Akkadia, Assyria. Enlil in Sumerian pantheons.
you're referring to terminology, not theology.
the other issue here is the descent of information ie how we interpret mystical experiences.
For example it's probably true there is a council, but is it 'divine'?
how do we know they aren't a bunch of jinns or maybe even angels who people interpreted as gods?
 

Daciple

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El had become a general term for "the God" with the monotheisation of certain cults in a polytheistic or henotheistic environment. It was originally a name designating a specific deity. El or Il in Ugarit, Phoenicia, Canaan. Ellil in Akkadia, Assyria. Enlil in Sumerian pantheons.
El is YHWH, they are not different deities. Where do you get El, the 70 and the Divine Counsel from? From the Old Testament Scriptures thats where.

Is El YHWH? Well lets turn to the Scriptures you are using to even make the assertion that there is a Divine Council of El with 70 sons of god surrounding Him:

Is 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.

3068 [e] Yah·weh יְהוָ֖ה the LORD Noun


410 [e] ’êl. אֵֽל׃ God Noun

According to the Scriptures you would use to state El is the head of the Divine Council with 70 sons of god, we see very clearly that YHWH is El, why? Because they are the same entity...

Here is a much deeper and scholarly approach to show YHWH is the head of the Divine Council, thus YHWH is El. The typology of having YHWH encompass pagan gods attributes is because the writers of Scriptures are almost always writing in a polemic style to usurp pagan gods and show that YHWH is above them.

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/HeiserIVPDC.pdf



 

Daciple

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The Monad is a monarchy with nothing above it.
The Monad is supremely Gnostic and has no relation to Biblical Christianity. To speak of the Monad is to also imply the other concepts of Gnsoticism which the Bible rejects fully. So others can understand what you are actually speaking about here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(Gnosticism)

Specifically this ideology:

The One is the high source of the pleroma, the region of light. The various emanations of The One are called Aeons.

The Pleroma, and Aeons are non existent in Biblical Christianity as they relate to Gnosticism. I hope others come to realize that what Art is expressing has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity and everything to do with Gnosticism, he keeps using the name Christianity but he does not represent it...
 
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El is YHWH, they are not different deities. Where do you get El, the 70 and the Divine Counsel from? From the Old Testament Scriptures thats where.

Is El YHWH? Well lets turn to the Scriptures you are using to even make the assertion that there is a Divine Council of El with 70 sons of god surrounding Him:

Is 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.

3068 [e] Yah·weh יְהוָ֖ה the LORD Noun


410 [e] ’êl. אֵֽל׃ God Noun

According to the Scriptures you would use to state El is the head of the Divine Council with 70 sons of god, we see very clearly that YHWH is El, why? Because they are the same entity...

Here is a much deeper and scholarly approach to show YHWH is the head of the Divine Council, thus YHWH is El. The typology of having YHWH encompass pagan gods attributes is because the writers of Scriptures are almost always writing in a polemic style to usurp pagan gods and show that YHWH is above them.

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/HeiserIVPDC.pdf
Already long addressed in the article. YHVH became the head of the Divine Council by taking El's place. See Chapter 7.
 
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The Monad is supremely Gnostic and has no relation to Biblical Christianity. To speak of the Monad is to also imply the other concepts of Gnsoticism which the Bible rejects fully. So others can understand what you are actually speaking about here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(Gnosticism)

Specifically this ideology:

The One is the high source of the pleroma, the region of light. The various emanations of The One are called Aeons.

The Pleroma, and Aeons are non existent in Biblical Christianity as they relate to Gnosticism. I hope others come to realize that what Art is expressing has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity and everything to do with Gnosticism, he keeps using the name Christianity but he does not represent it...
The Monad has its roots from the pre-Socratic school of thought. It's Platonic and evolved into gnostic through the meeting of Greek philosophy and Christian doctrine.
 
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