Quotes from early Church Fathers in support of Apokatastasis
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Red Sky at Morning
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Does your view come from intuition or the Bible here, Jess?
I do believe there will be many more saved than the fire and brimstone people say there will be. Most of this increase will be due to the "everlasting Gospel", as it is called in Rev 14:6. In vs 7, we find that this means believing that there is one living God, who is the creator of all. In Acts 14:15, Paul preached the same thing to pagans. In neither case, was Jesus Christ preached. So, from this, I would have to say that there is, and has always been, another way for any one to get saved.
Red Sky at Morning
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When Paul Jinadu became a Christian, he announced to his landlady in London "I'm Saved!" - to which she replied "saved from what?".
It made me smile but raised a serious question. On the subject of the Bible, you might have noticed I am more for Lee Strobel than for Bart Ehrman... Each of us makes a choice on who or what we believe.
Red Sky at Morning
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@justjess
One more thing, as Columbo used to say...
"If martyrs had to die for heaven and all these non believers are getting in for free, whats the point. Not fair."
I don't believe martyrs had to die, they were just people who wouldn't relent from telling the truth and standing against deception (e.g. salvation by grace alone through faith alone, owning a Bible etc).
The Gospel is really simple, but this takes nothing away from the depth of the Bible.
One more thing, as Columbo used to say...
"If martyrs had to die for heaven and all these non believers are getting in for free, whats the point. Not fair."
I don't believe martyrs had to die, they were just people who wouldn't relent from telling the truth and standing against deception (e.g. salvation by grace alone through faith alone, owning a Bible etc).
The Gospel is really simple, but this takes nothing away from the depth of the Bible.
Etagloc
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Apokatastasis sounds like wishful thinking.
I think that we should be firm and follow things to their conclusion- based on reason and not emotion.
Furthermore, reason should be subjugated by scripture. It is not for us to question God. Nor can we project our own ways of thinking onto God.
I think that we should be firm and follow things to their conclusion- based on reason and not emotion.
Furthermore, reason should be subjugated by scripture. It is not for us to question God. Nor can we project our own ways of thinking onto God.
Good questions.
I really don't know much of anything additional to say about the first one. The 2 instances where this everlasting gospel appears is related to pagans or people that don't believe much of anything. They don't involve Jews or believing Gentiles at all, so I feel they are one of those rare things that are out of the right division realm. However, since they are in scripture, we have to do something with them. I have chosen to take them at face value and believe that some sort of blessings would occur if one believed this "everlasting Gospel". And, salvation is really the only important blessing one could have. Also, I can't believe that Paul would leave those pagans without a path to salvation.
The second question. In Paul's last 7 books, he uses the word gospel 17 times. In some, or most, of these, it is obvious that he is referring to his gospel of salvation in 1Cor 15:1-4. This same Gospel is still valid after Acts, because he said it is, in these passages. In particular, look at these:
(1) Eph 1:13, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Most of the people that first believed in the new program outlined in his post=Acts books books were saved during Paul's Acts ministry.
(2) Phil 4:15, "Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only." This happened in Acts 16
(3) Col 1:23, "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" At the time he wrote Ephesian, he was in prison. The preaching to every creature had to have occurred in time past
(4) 2Tim 2:8, "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: This, of course, must refer to 1Co 15.
I realize that the things I say seem very odd and most have not heard these things before. If you want to put a title to it, it's called Acts 28:28 dispensationalism. Detractors of this, in every case I've seen, always show that they really have no idea what we believe. If they did understand, they would not be able to avoid believing in it also. More than any other scheme of Bible believing, Act 28:28 dispensationalism is the only one that is totally honest, and only uses a pure literal approach to interpretation. Supposedly, there are 34,000 denominations and, although that number seems high, we know there are a lot. Many of these are spinoffs and most are separate because they disagree with some interpretation. Fundamentalism, which is based mainly on a combination of poor interpretation and bad assumptions rears its ugly head in playing a big part in most denominations. Acts 28 Dispensationalism is an attempt to correct all this heresy, though a strict adherence to literal interpretation, comparing scripture with scripture, and, probably, the most important thing, rightly dividing the Word of Truth (2Tim 2:15), in conjunction with trying the things that differ (Phil 1:10, see margin). About 98% of the 100s of books and many of the tapes on Act 28 dispensationalism are available free on several websites:. bibleunderstanding.com, charleswelch.net tftmin.org My son has a website that is quite antiquated because he hasn't touched it in 15 years but, it's still funtional and quite informative - heavendwellers.com
One of the first things you learn in Acts 28 dispensationalism is that Paul's last 7 books are the only books in the Bible which have a promise of going to heaven. Fundamentalism has been lying and telling us that everyone saved will go to heaven the day they die. This is easily proven to be wrong. Comforting but wrong. Although there are some that feel differently, most of us believe that Paul's post Acts epistles require one to actually see this hope of spending eternity in Paul's post-Acts books before they get it. It's like salvation in that it requires faith. Youhave to see it, believe it, and then claim it. Also, I feel that you can't drag all of the other books, which are not TO you, into the equation. Park them at the gate and, as an old teacher of mine used to say, take your shoes off before entering the unique glories of Ephesians. In your mind, in you mix information from other books into Paul's last 7, it produces chaos and it prevents one from really see the absolute separate truth of Paul's last 7 books. As a start, If you prayerfully read the 1st 3 chapters of Ephesians a few times, its hard to miss the fact that its promises are totally different than anything else you've ever read in the Bible. Give it a shot, It's a win/win situation.
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Todd
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Wishing on the one who is able to do more than I can ask or imagine? Yep!
Serveto
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I looked up your references, followed along, and think I understand the logic of your Acts 28 dispensationalism well enough, but I am trying now to comprehend the implications of your beliefs. Generally speaking, I fail to see how Biblical books not to me are supposed to be for me. You clearly answered most of my questions and I thank you for that. Yet one remains: if the only books which are thought to apply to me are the seven mentioned Pauline epistles, I still wonder how you answer the question, in this case posed by a non-Jew: "what must one do [or believe] to be saved?"
In essence, this is very simple, but very hard to explain.
Good question. Look at 2Tim 3:16. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
The word "for" is used 3times in that verse. All scripture is FOR us, for our edification. I love Christ's words in red as much as anyone and every time I read them, I am edified. I love the entire bible and I am always edified by it. It's all important to me and it's all FOR me, to learn from, to correct myself, to instruct myself in righteousness.
On the other hand, over time, God changes the way He deals with Groups of People. For 2000 years, Israel was the head and the Gentiles were the tail. Since 70AD, during this present 2000 year Times of the Gentiles, the Gentiles are the head and Israel really doesn't really have a separate place today. For salvation, they are no different than us Gentiles. in that they must believe in Paul's Gospel in 1Cor 15:1-4, that Christ died for the sins of the world. He was then buried and then resurrected after 3 days.
All of us are interested in what OUR OWN FUTURE will be. The books that answer this specifically are those that are written TO us. Everything else is FOR us, FOR our edification.
I'm just babel-ing. Let me try a more technical answer. Those books written TO you are those that tell YOU exactly what YOUR specific hope, calling, resurrection, and where you will end up if you believe the right stuff. All other books are FOR you. they don't tell you exactly what's going to happen to you, but they are full of good information that will edify you. They are all FOR your edification.
The 1st verse in the book of James reads, "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." There's no doubt that James is written TO Israel and not to you. However, there are definitely passages in James that you can learn from. Therefore, you could say that the Book of James is written for you (for your edification) but not directly to you.
In writing this, I've learned a lot. I was surprised I couldn't make it simpler. I've come to the conclusion that the word "for" doesn't work as well as Ithought. I've been using it for so long that I don't even think about it when I use it. I can now see why you were confused. I need to put some thought into it. Thanks for the boost.
As for the second question, Paul carries his gospel of salvation of 1Cor 15:1-4 forward from his Acts epistles to his post-Acts epostles In both sets of books, he refers to it as My Gospel. It's the only rule I can think of that he carries forward, from his Acts ministry to his pure Gentile ministry. Look at Rom 2:16, 16:25, Gal 1:8-9, Eph 1:13(!!), Phil 4:3, Phil 4:15(!!!!!!), Col 1:23(!!!), 2Tim 2:8(!!). Phil 4:15(!!!!!!) is the best proof, since Paul was in Macedonia several times between Acts 16 and 20 and Phil is a post-Acts epistle,. Also, through internal proofs, we know Paul was in prison in Rome when he wrote Eph, Phil, Col, and 2Tim, but he seemed to have enough freedom to have a lot of visitors. It is thought that he wrote Eph first. It is also believed that he was executed while in prison and, therefore, had no chance to go to Macedonia again. Unlike any of the 12,, Paul got special revelations from God, in one way or another, throughout his ministries, starting at the Damascus road in Acts 9. Look up the times "revelation(s)" occurs in both sets of his epistles. From prison, I believe his people immediately took his letters to Eph and the other churches. I think his ministry from what he taught in Acts changed overnight to his post-Acts ministry, when he got another revelation from God. If you read Eph (especially) carefully, you'll see that the first members of the Church Which is Christ's Body, where Christ is the Head, were those same people that were in the Acts church. They heard the New Good News from Timothy or Luke or whoever Paul sent to delivers the letter(s). Some people didn't seem to buy into it, however. Look at 2Tim 1:15.
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