Quotes from early Church Fathers in support of Apokatastasis

Daciple

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Very impressive using gossip, slander and accusation to judge doctrine LOL!
What does some random guys opinion matter? I mean did you just google Origen Castration and then find the first random person that might disagree with what I said and quote him? I mean be honest bro, thats exactly what you did. The facts are, Origen was and has always been considered a fanatic, he was rejected by some of his peers, and eventually due to MAINLY to his belief in UR along with other heretical teachings he was ex-communicated from the Church. Which really puts a damper on your whole everyone believed and accepted UR...

THE FIFTH ECUMENICAL COUNCIL
THE SECOND COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE
A.D. 553

The Anathemas Against Origen.


I.
If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration (apokatastasis) which follows from it: let him be anathema.

XIV.
If anyone shall say that all reasonable beings will one day be united in one, when the hypostases as well as the numbers and the bodies shall have disappeared, and that the knowledge of the world to come will carry with it the ruin of the worlds, and the rejection of bodies as also the abolition of [all] names, and that there shall be finally an identity of the γνῶσις and of the hypostasis; moreover, that in this pretended apocatastasis, spirits only will continue to exist, as it was in the feigned pre-existence: let him be anathema.

XV.
If anyone shall say that the life of the spirits (νοῶν) shall be like to the life which was in the beginning while as yet the spirits had not come down or fallen, so that the end and the beginning shall be alike, and that the end shall be the true measure of the beginning: let him be anathema.


http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html

Synod of Constantinople (543)

The Anathematisms of the Emperor Justinian Against Origen.

VII.

If anyone says or thinks that Christ the Lord in a future time will be crucified for demons as he was for men, let him be anathema.

IX.

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema.

Anathema to Origen and to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and wicked doctrine320 and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them.


https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.x.html

This Doctrine was being fully and 100% rejected by at least 543 as we see here, and it wasnt even spoken about or popularized until Origen in the 3rd Century and if we look at the actual Early Church Fathers aka Pre Orgien we dont see them endorsing this False Doctrine at all, they all subscribed to Eternal Torment. Again post Apostolic Fathers endorsing your False Doctrine...
 

Rec

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https://translate.google.com/#en/el/eternal

"And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years." - St. Justin Martyr, "First Apology", ch. 8.
 

Rita

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Daciple, I don't know if you remember me. I was a friend with whom you had a bible study with another girl who went to a mega church out in Cali online, when the forums existed the first time. I'm from sw Iowa. I still check this site, but I don't visit the forums as I figured all my old friends were gone. I also remember another friend of yours I loved dearly, he didn't post much and can't remember his name, but he lived on a boat, was a fisherman, and what seemed to me a strong brother in the Lord. It's very good to see you again, I'm from southwest Iowa if that helps you remember at all.

Anyway, the reason I am posting is because I was doing a Google word search for the apokatastasis and this thread came up, and I saw your name and got excited. :) I actually believe in the apokatastasis. For as in Adam all died, so in Christ all shall be made alive. It was cemented for me when I realized in the KJV that the word "all" in Romans 5:19 had been quantum changed to "many". That's really when I fully realized what satan truly wants us to believe. God is a consuming fire, and there is a reason for sulphur in the lake of fire. Every knee shall bow - this word bow is used in worship. Every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and no one can confess Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the whole world especially to those who believe. Each in their own order. 1 Cor 15:22 the word for made alive is quickened, the term used for quickening of the Holy Spirit. We don't see the fulfillment yet in time, but when Jesus said it is finished, He meant it. <3
 

Daciple

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Daciple, I don't know if you remember me. I was a friend with whom you had a bible study with another girl who went to a mega church out in Cali online, when the forums existed the first time. I'm from sw Iowa. I still check this site, but I don't visit the forums as I figured all my old friends were gone. I also remember another friend of yours I loved dearly, he didn't post much and can't remember his name, but he lived on a boat, was a fisherman, and what seemed to me a strong brother in the Lord. It's very good to see you again, I'm from southwest Iowa if that helps you remember at all.

Anyway, the reason I am posting is because I was doing a Google word search for the apokatastasis and this thread came up, and I saw your name and got excited. :) I actually believe in the apokatastasis. For as in Adam all died, so in Christ all shall be made alive. It was cemented for me when I realized in the KJV that the word "all" in Romans 5:19 had been quantum changed to "many". That's really when I fully realized what satan truly wants us to believe. God is a consuming fire, and there is a reason for sulphur in the lake of fire. Every knee shall bow - this word bow is used in worship. Every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and no one can confess Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the whole world especially to those who believe. Each in their own order. 1 Cor 15:22 the word for made alive is quickened, the term used for quickening of the Holy Spirit. We don't see the fulfillment yet in time, but when Jesus said it is finished, He meant it. <3
I believe I remember you yes at least somewhat, it has been a long time!! Hope you are doing well!!! And yes my friends name on here was Chainmaker, but unfortunately we had a falling out over something extremely stupid, he went imo very very Pharisaical and we havent spoken in years, I hope he is doing well tho, I still love and pray for him!!!

As for apokatastasis as you can see I believe that is wholly incorrect and while you may believe that Satan is wanting us to believe that Hell is forever, I believe it only behooves Satan to want people to believe that Hell is not forever and therefore lure as many people into it with him as possible. It makes no sense for the Devil to be hard at work opposing everyone and everything that is of God if Hell is only going to bring them into Heaven anyway. What sense does it make for him to attack everything Godly if in the end he knows he is going to end up worshiping God along with everyone he lures into Hell?

Thats just a logical implication of whats the POINT of Satan or Hell if everyone is just gonna go to Heaven, makes no sense for God to create a realm to punish people for a bit of time to then just bring them into Heaven, why not just create a system in which no one is punished and just go straight to Heaven if that is the end game for all?

Besides that, Scripture never once says that anyone will get out of Hell, not once, whereas Scripture clearly shows that Hell is Eternal, that Hell exists with people in it at the point in which there is no more "Aeons" or the End of all Time and the Eternal State. It clearly says that the punishment of the wicked last exactly as long as the life of the righteous which that alone ends this whole idea that people will get out of Hell or that Hell is just a place of purgatory which is essentially what this boils down too.

This idea was not taught or believed by Paul or the Apostles nor anyone in the Early Church, as this thread will continue to show if Todd tries to keep misquoting the Church Fathers in which he is being called out on this thread, it wasnt taught really until after Origen, the Heretic came along and promoted it along with his other False Doctrine. True after that there were some who endorsed it but then this idea was once again rejected and has been rejected as a whole for centuries. From the New Advent Site concerning this:

The doctrine, then, was first taught by Origen, and by Clement of Alexandria, and was an influence in their Christianity due to Platonism, as Petavius has plainly shown (Theol. dogmat. De Angelis, 106), following St. Augustine City of God XXI.13. Compare Janet, "La philosophiede Platon" (Paris, 1869), I, 603. It is evident, moreover, that the doctrine involves a purely natural scheme of divine justice and of redemption. (Plato, Republic, X, 614b.)

It was through Origen that the Platonist doctrine of the apokatastasis passed to St. Gregory of Nyssa, and simultaneously to St. Jerome, at least during the time that St. Jerome was an Origenist. It is certain, however, that St. Jerome understands it only of the baptized: "In restitutione omnium, quando corpus totius ecclesiæ nunc dispersum atque laceratum, verus medicus Christus Jesus sanaturus advenerit, unusquisque secundum mensuram fidei et cognitionis Filii Dei . . . suum recipiet locum et incipiet id esse quod fuerat" (Comment. in Eph., iv, 16; P.G., XXVI, col. 503). Everywhere else St. Jerome teaches that the punishment of the devils and of the impious, that is of those who have not come to the Faith, shall be eternal. (See Petavius, Theol. dogmat. De Angelis, 111, 112.) The "Ambrosiaster" on the other hand seems to have extended the benefits of redemption to the devils, (In Eph., iii, 10; P.L., XVII, col. 382), yet the interpretation of the "Ambrosiaster" on this point is not devoid of difficulty. [See Petavius, p. 111; also, Turmel, Histoire de la théologie positive, depuis l'origine, etc. (Paris, 1904) 187.]

From the moment, however, that anti-Origenism prevailed, the doctrine of the apokatastasis was definitely abandoned. St. Augustine protests more strongly than any other writer against an error so contrary to the doctrine of the necessity of grace.

In any case, the doctrine was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.] The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

So according to History, this ideology was prevalent from Origen which would be from around 230-240ish until about 380ish when St Augustine and others completely rejected and condemned it, until it was officially and totally renounced in 543. Basically this was an ideology that was started and ended within 150 yrs and has been completely defunct since 543. It looks to me from my research that this once again reappeared in the 1800's which is also when many other False Doctrines and Cults were forming.

There are many threads on here debating the subject and sadly any Thread Todd here enter he turns into a Thread about Hell. I fully condemn the Teaching and am certain that it isnt taught in Scripture nor endorsed until the Heretic Origen began to propagate it...
 

Rita

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I really don't listen to the "church fathers", what has been revealed to me is that the parable of Lazarus and the rich man was just that, a parable, that sheol/hades and gehenna were all translated erroneously as "hell", or hel, a pagan concept, and that those thrown into the lake of fire are purified, that's what the sulphur is for. Last summer, 2017, I was shown by God the quantum changes to scripture, and it's been really hard but rewarding to lean completely on Christ thru the Holy Spirit. If Romans 5:19 hadn't been quantum changed from all to many I might have let it go as a false doctrine. As it stands now, knowing what I know, that the strong delusion is going on and that we are in the last moments of the end of the age, if I didn't have the truth of the apokatastasis, I would literally be in a mental ward right now. God is good.
 

Daciple

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I really don't listen to the "church fathers", what has been revealed to me is that the parable of Lazarus and the rich man was just that, a parable, that sheol/hades and gehenna were all translated erroneously as "hell", or hel, a pagan concept, and that those thrown into the lake of fire are purified, that's what the sulphur is for.
Well I dont really listen to the Church Fathers either but I feel that those who were directly under the teachings of the Apostles or under the teachings of those under those under the Apostles probably have somewhat better of an idea as to how the Apostles taught and believed vs someone 100's to 1000's of years later. Therefore the point is, Todd is trying to quote Church Fathers that endorse this ideology to uplift it, whereas I am showing that no Church Father that was either directly under the apprenticeship of the Apostles or those who knew those who knew the Apostles directly ever once condoned or endorse such a teaching. The fact is ALL OF THEM reject this and fully teach and support the reality of Eternal Hell. In summary from my point of view you have 3 sets of "Church Fathers" those who directly knew the Apostles such as Polycarp and those who knew those who knew the Apostles such as Clement of Rome and Ignatius, then you have everyone else and going further from the 1st and 2nd Centuries degrading in authority. The first 3 are called Apostolic Fathers and NONE of them endorse this False Doctrine, they all 3 including Polycarp who knew John the Revelator, speak on Eternal Hell.

I definitely believe that Scripture is absolutely clear on Hell, and you have no offense taken your emotions and put them in place of clear passage of the Bible so you dont have to accept what it says. An example is the parable of Lazarus, can you show me anytime in which Jesus spoke in a parable about something that was NOT True?

Every parable Jesus spoke on was based 100% on reality, but you and those who wish to reject the clear interpretation of this parable have chosen to say well this parable is Jesus just making stuff up, its not real. The fact is this parable is based on something 100% real, an Eternal Hell of torment in which there is no possibility for those in Hell to move to the other side. To say that Hell is a Pagan Concept is to now say that Paul and all the writers of the New Testament are all Pagans, as all of them speak on Hell including Jesus Himself. How is the Soul destroyed in the grave? How can we be worried about God destroying our Souls in the Grave if there isnt a difference between the Grave and Hell/lake of Fire and how can we state that this place called Hell brings about restoration when Jesus says it brings destruction or ruin? Is Jesus lying here or being a Pagan?

Matt 10;28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Doesnt sound like Hell is a place of restoring here at all, and clearly Hell is more than just the grave as the grave doesnt kill the Soul, but Hell apparently does...

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The punishment last exactly as long as the life given to the righteous, so which ends, the punishment or life? The fact is the word here means forever and eternal, it was used regularly for eternal in Greek.

According to what you have said, it seems that you are literally tying this into your own emotional state of being, so are you really going to be able to clearly understand this if it upsets you so? I believe almost every one who desperately wants to cling to this ideology basis it very much so on their emotions, their personal stances and wants, and their perceived "righteousness" of if I wouldnt want this to happen then God definitely doesnt. It seems people dont really want to take a hard look at how terrible Sin is and what the consequences OUGHT to be for Sin. Its not a big deal to those who believe in this, the punishment doesnt fit the crime in their eyes. In my eyes Eternal Damnation is the minimum for the horribleness of Sin before an Almighty Perfect God who created and sustains us and lavishes His love and everything Good we have upon us. Maybe start reviewing what Sin is before God and it wont be such a "unjust" punishment in your eyes, because the fact is Sin deserves nothing but Eternal Separation from God period...
 

elsbet

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Universal Reconciliation has been labeled a heretical doctrine by a good portion of Christians on this forum.
I want to clarify something: Universal Reconciliation has been labeled a heretical doctrine by the majority of Christians on this earth. Those who believe in it have their own church, and they are called Universalists. It should not be mistaken for anything else.

We are told that Every knee will bow in heaven, on earth and under the earth-- not because everyone will be brought to salvation, but because of Who Christ IS.


"... every knee shall bow to me; which is not to be understood literally of bowing of the knee at the name of Jesus, which has no foundation in this, nor in any other passage of Scripture, but figuratively, of the subjection of all creatures to Christ, both voluntary and involuntary. The Complutensian edition adds, "of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth", as in Philippians 2:10, from whence these words seem to be taken:​

and every tongue shall confess to God; that is, everyone that has a tongue, every man, be he who he will, a good or a bad man, shall own at the last day, that Christ is God and Lord of all; see Philippians 2:10."​
GILL'S EXPOSITION

That is, they will admit It. I imagine that when standing in the presence of our holy God, a denial would be impossible, regardless of the state of one's soul.

The urgency, as well, of TODAY would not be present.. but it is, and is felt throughout the whole of the bible.

LUKE 12:16-21
And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:​
And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?​
And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.​
And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.​
But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?​
So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.​
-​
Hebrews 3:15-19
To-day, if His voice ye may hear, ye may not harden your hearts, as in the provocation,’​
for certain having heard did provoke, but not all who did come out of Egypt through Moses; but with whom was He grieved forty years? was it not with those who did sin, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? and to whom did He swear that they shall not enter into His rest, except to those who did not believe? — and we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.​
-​
 

Todd

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"There are very few of the Christian fathers whose fundamental conceptions are better suited to correct the narrowness, the rigidity and the formalism of Latin theology. It is his lofty and wholesome doctrine that man is made in the image of God; that man's will is free; that he is redeemed from sin by a divine education and a corrective discipline; that fear and punishment are but remedial instruments in man's training; that Justice is but another aspect of perfect Love; that the physical world is good and not evil; that Christ is a Living not a Dead Christ; that all mankind from one great brotherhood in him; that salvation is an ethical process, not an external reward; that the atonement was not the pacification of wrath, but the revelation of God's eternal mercy. That judgment is a continuous process, not a single sentence; that God works all things up to what is better; that souls may be purified beyond the grave." –F.W. Farrar commenting on Clement of Alexandria
 

Todd

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"1 John 2:2. 'And not only for our sins,'--that is for those of the faithful, - is the Lord the propitiator, does he say, “but also for the whole world.” He, indeed, saves all; but some [He saves], converting them by punishments; others, however, who follow voluntarily [He saves] with dignity of honour; so “that every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth;” that is, angels, men, and souls that before His advent have departed from this temporal life. " --Clement of Alexandria, Commentary on 1 John 2.2, Fragments from the Latin Translation of Cassiodorus, ANF, Vol 2
 

Todd

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What is then the scope of St. Paul's argument in this place? That the nature of evil shall one day be wholly exterminated, and divine, immortal goodness embrace within itself all intelligent natures; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be exiled from his kingdom; when all the mixtures of evil that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things, shall be dissolved, and consumed in the furnace of purifying fire, and everything that had its origin from God shall be restored to its pristine state of purity.
This is the end of our hope, that nothing shall be left contrary to the good, but that the divine life, penetrating all things, shall absolutely destroy death from existing things, sin having been previously destroyed
For it is evident that God will in truth be 'in all' when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with itself, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body. Now the body of Christ, as I have often said, is the whole of humanity.

Whoever considers the divine power will plainly perceive that it is able at length to restore by means of the aionion purging and atoning sufferings, those who have gone even to this extremity of wickedness.

Gregory of Nyssa (335-390)
 

Rita

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Copypasta but worth reading.

Note on

Olethron Aionion

(eternal destruction)
'Aion
, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of one's life is called theaeon of each one." Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not "a stationary and mechanical value" (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds,the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3. The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aeidoes not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans arealways (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually orcontinually within the limit of the subject's life. In our colloquial dialecteverlastingly is used in the same way. "The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum."

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, 'o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting. They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand,aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionioseverlasting. Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God's relations to time. God's eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded. That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of "the everlasting power and divinity of God." In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that "the mystery" has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlastingtimes, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title 'o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10. The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed byaionios. Kolasis aionios, renderedeverlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aioniosdoes not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says thatzoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father's commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: "In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. 'Eternal life' is that which St. Paul speaks of as 'e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and 'e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order."

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical. The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

In the present passage it is urged thatolethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition. If this be true, ifolethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. Butolethros does not always meandestruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says "the world being deluged with water, perished(apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, "they shall perish" (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. "They shall be changed" (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, "the Son of man came to save that which was lost" (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, "He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it," Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified. It is "destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power," at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ.Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ's coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting orendless.
 

cfowen

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I really don't listen to the "church fathers", what has been revealed to me is that the parable of Lazarus and the rich man was just that, a parable, that sheol/hades and gehenna were all translated erroneously as "hell", or hel, a pagan concept, and that those thrown into the lake of fire are purified, that's what the sulphur is for. Last summer, 2017, I was shown by God the quantum changes to scripture, and it's been really hard but rewarding to lean completely on Christ thru the Holy Spirit. If Romans 5:19 hadn't been quantum changed from all to many I might have let it go as a false doctrine. As it stands now, knowing what I know, that the strong delusion is going on and that we are in the last moments of the end of the age, if I didn't have the truth of the apokatastasis, I would literally be in a mental ward right now. God is good.
Excellent, Rita! Good to finally see another Bible believer on here. I do think that the manufactured story, Lazarus and the Rich Man, was a satire, meant to insult the Pharisees for their screwy beliefs about hell. Josephus was a Pharisee, contempory with the apostles, I think. If you read Josephus' "Discourse on Hades", you will see an almost identical view of hell as the hell in L&RM. This discourse was the traditional view of hell as believed by the Pharisees. There's no hint of any of this in the OT, which there surely would be if it were true. The use of hell for sheol/gehenna/hades has always been a main reason for knowing, without a doubt, that the KJV is not without error.
 

Rita

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You won't see me around much. I really only posted because I saw my old friend Daciple. I am considered crazy by most since I believe the lion shall lay down with the lamb and not the wolf. <3
 

cfowen

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If you want truth, the last people to listen to are the so-called "Church fathers".
 

cfowen

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I am not meaning to correct you, and it's insignificant in any case, but, I read the recommended discourse recently, did some research on it, and found that authorship is in dispute (some attributing it to St. Hippolytus of Rome). I researched because I found this an extraordinary thing for a non-Christian (Josephus) to say, or write:


I've read similar things about L&RM but, people that love to think that those with lesser faith than they have were going to hell, would want to squelch anything that that might give those that don't believe the Bible establishes the existence of hell., a toe hold. I've also read that the writings of Paul or Revelation or other books of the Bible are held in dispute by some.
 

justjess

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@Todd

Serious question...

Why would you make any effort with evangelism, why would you "contend" for the faith, why indeed would Jesus tell his disciples to go into all the world if everyone would "make it" anyway?

What of missionaries who gave their lives and martyrs who gladly burned for the truths you seem so eager to dispense with?
I finally get it... you guys have some sort of allergic reaction to even the IDEA that someone might possibly work a little less than you and still enjoy some rewards. You have an obsession with your own interpretation of worthiness.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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I finally get it... you guys have some sort of allergic reaction to even the IDEA that someone might possibly work a little less than you and still enjoy some rewards. You have an obsession with your own interpretation of worthiness.
@justjess

"someone might possibly work a little less than you and still enjoy some rewards."

My confidence of eternal life is based on the worthiness of Jesus, not my own. Any "works" I do, I do out of love and gratitude and not for fear of rejection, and I leave any rewards entirely up to the one who will try my works by fire one day...
 

justjess

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You said basically.. how is universal reconciliation fair when martyrs died for the faith.

If i misunderstood you my apologies but thats what i got from it. If martyrs had to die for heaven and all these non believers are getting in for free, whats the point. Not fair.

Something similar to "i had to work for my health insurance and all these lazy asses are getting it for free" - its a theme.

I dont believe in eternal hell fire because im a parent. Theres nothing my children could do that would make me disown them forever, no matter how horrible. I dont know any parent who isnt a sociopath or narcissist who feels/acts differently. God is our father, no?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@justjess

You ask a most interesting question. "God is our father, no?"

Not for me to say here - the Lord discusses the question directly...

John 8

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
 
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