Question for Muslims about the defense of their faith

[Thunderian]

I read a quote on another thread where a Muslim said to another poster, "Don't insult our prophet and we won't insult you," and once again I'm reminded of the fierceness with which Islam has always responded to slights.

This is a profound difference between Christianity and Islam. The Bible and the name of Jesus Christ are insulted on a fairly regular basis, but we don't find anything in the Bible about defending our faith against insult or ridicule. We are only told to use the word of God as a defense.

Is there a passage in the Quran, or hadith that give instruction for the defense of Islam?

 

[AspiringSoul]

The old testament has all types of rules
like if someone commits blasphemy, he's dead meat.

As a christian you would just say 'that was the old testament, we follow the new'..but the old is still from God.
You don't need to follow it but you have to accept that the God you believe in, legitimised the things today you criticise islam for.

Have you wondered why the God you believe in has done far worse things directly or indirectly than the prophet of islam?

 

[elsbet]

The old testament has all types of rules
like if someone commits blasphemy, he's dead meat.

As a christian you would just say 'that was the old testament, we follow the new'..but the old is still from God.
You don't need to follow it but you have to accept that the God you believe in, legitimised the things today you criticise islam for.

Have you wondered why the God you believe in has done far worse things directly or indirectly than the prophet of islam?

No. The prophet was a man; not God.

 

[manama]

LOL Yea because we have seen enough christians on this forum using "the word of God" as the defense of their faith. Which totally includes youtube comments, fake hadiths etc etc

For your question tho one verse comes to mind

"And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they say [words of] peace,"

 

[Thunderian]

Is anyone able to answer my question without being contentious?

 

[SpektaCoolAir]

hey hasbari how you doing?

yet another thread in which you are trying to discredit islam & its followers in your very own sneaky way.

well anyways - a lot of people would take an insult towards their mother or parents (which are usually the most sacred to anybody) as something not acceptable & therefore go off in defense mode.

the prophet muhammad (may the peace & blessings of Allah be upon him) is more sacred to muslims than their parents or any other person in this world because he brought them (with the permission of the Almighty) the greatest gift of all - the true faith & the right guidance - islam!

their parents or any other person won't be able to help them in the hereafter - but the prophet (may the peace & blessings of Allah be upon him) will be able to do because that's what he asked the Almighty for & it was granted to him - all the other prophets asked for things for themselves only & were granted also.

so a person who attacks the beloved one(s) of another person - ridicules/insults him/her/them on any given occasion & then expects a kind treatment in return must be pathetic hence a mental case!

anybody with at least a bit of honor & dignity left can relate to this.


that's why considering this:

The Bible and the name of Jesus Christ are insulted on a fairly regular basis, but we don't find anything in the Bible about defending our faith against insult or ridicule.

is yet another reason why your way of life is way far from reality & ignores human nature.


by the way - muslims who know their faith would defend any prophet of the Almighty (from ridicule & insults) not only muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon all of them)!

 

[Thunderian]

What is it about Allah that makes Muslims think he needs defending?

In the Bible, God tells us that vengeance belongs to him alone. He doesn't need anyone to stand up on his behalf. Any Christian who claims to wage war for Christ's sake does so with no Biblical authority.

What is the Islamic authority for waging war on behalf of Allah? It can't just be because someone hurt Muhammad's feelings.

 

[DesertRose]

We are a people who have honor.
If someone abuses your mom wouldn't you come out to her defense?
God and all his Prophets peace be upon them all are protected against slander and lies.
We also defend Prophet Jesus against any abuse as well.

How can people abide by forum rules that stop you from attacking another individual, yet you are okay when there are attacks and defamation on God or his religious personalities.

There is something wrong with your logic.
It needs fixing.
You are the first person who will have a knee jerk defense of the Jews and that is okay because we should be against collective stereotyping.
However why not defend God or his Prophets peace be upon all of them.

 

[Karlysymon]

I see your point DesertRose.
Therefore we should see as much outrage at Jesus' caricatures as at the attempt to draw Muhammad since He is a prophet in Islam. Why then do cartoonists refrain from depictions of the latter than the former, with full knowledge that both of them are Islamic prophets and a defence will be mastered?

 

[DesertRose]

Why then do cartoonists refrain from depictions of the latter than the former, with full knowledge that both of them are Islamic prophets and a defence will be mastered?

It is a really sad situation. I think this is more of a civilization/religious assault.
Muslims in the west have discussed with disgust the actions of people like Sarah Silverman and that artist who doused a supposed picture of Jesus in urine. It is offensive.

 

[Thunderian]

hey hasbari how you doing?

Why do you feel the need to jump right into insulting me? Why not just take the question seriously and answer it?

- a lot of people would take an insult towards their mother or parents (which are usually the most sacred to anybody) as something not acceptable & therefore go off in defense mode.

Your mom may need you to defend her, but what makes you believe Allah does?

so a person who attacks the beloved one(s) of another person - ridicules/insults him/her/them on any given occasion & then expects a kind treatment in return must be pathetic hence a mental case!

I don't disagree that when someone attacks your beloved ones a strong response is definitely on the table, but again I wonder why you won't let Allah take care of business himself, as he sees fit. Is there a verse or hadith that addresses this subject at all? I am asking in all respectful seriousness. I really want to know what the authority for action in defense of Islam is. Under what circumstances are Muslims called to go to the defense of the Creator?

anybody with at least a bit of honor & dignity left can relate to this.

I know this is meant to be another insult, but I choose to believe you misunderstand the issue.

that's why considering this:



is yet another reason why your way of life is way far from reality & ignores human nature.

Our human nature is what separates us from God. The Bible doesn't ignore that. It gives us instructions for overcoming it.

So when the Bible says,

If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.​

I try to listen.

by the way - muslims who know their faith would defend any prophet of the Almighty (from ridicule & insults) not only muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon all of them)!

I wish a Muslim who knew their faith would peacefully answer my questions about what they believe.

This is another of the great differences between Christianity and Islam. Christians are to be witnesses for Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us we should always be ready and willing to explain our faith to others. I don't find this to be the case with Muslims.

 

[DesertRose]

Is there a verse or hadith that addresses this subject at all? I am asking in all respectful seriousness. I really want to know what the authority for action in defense of Islam is. Under what circumstances are Muslims called to go to the defense of the Creator?

okay because in there I see a legitimate question and btw that is hodge podge about Muslims not explaining their religion we have, but somehow the thoughts are not getting through the prisms of preconceived ideas.
Hence, many ask us questions wanting to confirm some bias and when they do not get that confirmation they accuse us of not explaining.

Now to your question:
We are forbidden to insult other religious personalities in Islam.
Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allah, lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair-seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall then inform them of all that they used to do”


[al-An‘aam 6:108]”.
"If a Muslim hears a Christian or anyone else defaming the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) he has to denounce him in strong terms. It is permissible to insult that person because he is the one who started it. How can we not stand up the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)?"

We do not revile the religious personalities or Gods of other faiths because this will lead them to reviling the Lord of the Worlds – Who should be declared to be far above all faults, defects, insults and aspersions.

 

[rainerann]

Being forbidden to insult other beliefs is formidable. However, it still does not address the question in the opening post. ""Don't insult our prophet and we won't insult you,"

So we can see that insulting other religious personalities is forbidden. However, we cannot see where in the event that the insult is made, where is permission given to insult in return and how does this create a solution to the problem?

In reality, I remember seeing this post. I would consider it a mild threat. What is the person recieving this response supposed to do in response, fear the person insulting them so much that they never make the same mistake?

 

[DesertRose]

Correction: We cannot insult the Gods or religious personalities of other faiths.
I distinctly, unequivocally said you insult our Prophet peace be upon him we will insult you.
It is an offense and they get offended back.
We do not revile the religious personalities or Gods of other faiths because this will lead them to reviling the Lord of the Worlds – Who should be declared to be far above all faults, defects, insults and aspersions.

 

[rainerann]

Correction: We cannot insult the Gods or religious personalities of other faiths.
I distinctly, unequivocally said you insult our Prophet peace be upon him we will insult you.
It is an offense and they get offended back.
We do not revile the religious personalities or Gods of other faiths because this will lead them to reviling the Lord of the Worlds – Who should be declared to be far above all faults, defects, insults and aspersions.

And why is this permitted? I would presume that there is some justification for this. Like I said, I consider this a mild threat and a sign of poor communication. What is someone supposed to do, fear your insults so much that they never say anything negative about Muhammad again? Is there permission to escalate this permission to insult someon in return if a person decides to ignore this mild threat and continues to make comments you would consider insulting.

So basically, you are also admitting that you have directly avoided the actual question and have attempted to divert attention towards an impression of Islam that is not entirely accurate. You are basically admitting that you are hiding whatever justifies a comment like this from a doctrinal perspective because you don't want people to know or you are in fact disobedient to your own faith by choosing this course of action without justification.

Would it be true to assume that a comment like this deserves praise or condemnation within the Islamic community based on a collective understanding of the doctrine?

 

[DesertRose]

You know rain there is nothing difficult to comprehend about the words.
You offend the Prophet we offend you back.
Second. your angle of victimhood for the one and not the other is hilarious.
Really if a person goes out of their way to be offensive they should be able to take it.
Finally, I put you on my ignore for a reason. I see no point in engaging you.
I have to actually log out to see your responses.
I was responding to thundo's last post only.
So good night.

 

[elsbet]

"It is permissible to insult that person because .."

.. this guy said so, in his interpretation of that verse posted, above:

Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Barraak, Majallat al-Da’wah, Muharram, issue no. 1933.
https://islamqa.info/en/14305


.. among other things.
Very different theology, for certain.

 

[DesertRose]

among other things.
Very different theology, for certain.

Just logged in to add this:
Our ways of honor safeguard our path admirably and this can not be said for other paths.
We see in the west that one group especially has this a unique honor and that is the Jews no castigation against them collectively or else you will go to jail in some countries. (which is laudable in regards to collective castigation but not in regards to historical facts or issues)
Everyone else including God and his Prophets are fair game in this realm.
No anti- defamation leagues for them.
That picture is very telling.
I would write," to know whom you honor above yourselves.....find out who you can not criticize."

 

[rainerann]

You know rain there is nothing difficult to comprehend about the words.
You offend the Prophet we offend you back.
Second. your angle of victimhood for the one and not the other is hilarious.
Really if a person goes out of their way to be offensive they should be able to take it.
Finally, I put you on my ignore for a reason. I see no point in engaging you.
I have to actually log out to see your responses.
I was responding to thundo's last post only.
So good night.

No one is obligated to agree or praise the teachings of the person you consider a prophet. At no point does this justify insulting a person in response. Defending someone having the right to their own opinion is all I am doing.

Also, when you put someone on ignore, responding to them kind of defeats the purpose of alerting people that they are on ignore. Apparently, you do not feel inclined to use this to ignore what I have to say and are only trying to use this as a way to insult me. I really don't care whether you ignore me or not, but I hope it helped boost your ego by making the announcement as though it were a legitimate way to answer a question.

There is also nothing wrong with recognizing whether this is something legitimized by doctrines and if it is, what are the boundaries given? Can this type of mild threat be escalated if a person doesn't change their behavior?

 

[rainerann]

"We ordained therein for them: 'Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.' But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are (no better than) wrong-doers" [Quran 5:45].

I'm thinking someone should just use this verse to answer the question. So I will answer my own question, this would give boundaries that prevent escalation. Someone is able to override eye for eye with charity, but if they do nothing, they are no better than a wrongdoer. Rocket science.

However, in the event someone commits theft: “[As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they earned [i.e. committed] as a deterrent [punishment] from Allaah. And Allaah is Exalted in Might and Wise.” [Quran 5:38]

You should amputate their hands if they steal? Is that eye for eye? So again, boundaries for consequences are very hard to identify within Islam. Cutting off someone's hands is not eye for eye.

Before anyone starts trying to say that the Bible talks about eye for eye, this is true. This was the command given in the law of Moses. However, in judging cases of theft this teaching is consistent so that boundaries are clear. If a person were to steal, they would be required to repay someone, plus be indebted to pay something equivalent to an fee for the inconvenience created. This would be eye for eye.

So, again, the fact that people dance around the question instead of addressing it directly does cause one to question the teachings of Muhammad as a prophet. Therefore, this becomes a legitimate issue to be raised and not an example of insulting someone for the sake of insulting them that warrants the same behavior in response.