Qualifications To Be A Christian

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Red Sky at Morning

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Perhaps an interesting line of thought here is around the verse in Romans 12

"2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."

Do you think it is possible for a Christian to still be "conformed to this world"?

Do you think God wants the Christian to stay that way?
 

Kung Fu

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@Kung Fu - it is a sad fact that Christians are sometimes the worst ambassadors for Christ.
People of every faith have more than their fair share of bad apples but Rainerann made it look like accepting Christianity (and no other religion) could somehow cure them of their troubles when we know that's not the case. For example, Christianity allows one to drink alcohol so how could Christianity set an alcoholic free?
 

Damien50

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@rainerann Kay, I understand all that but what separates us from say an individual that acknowledges Christ but had never even read the Bible? When God comes to separate the wheat from the chaff, what is the parallel of our wheat?

@Red Sky at Morning
You mention a life of holiness but that doesn't only entail following the commandments and teachings of Christ. So what is one to do to live a Holy life?
 

justjess

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What exactly was rude? There's fact that some people profess faith in Christ or being born again and their behavior doesn't change at all. I don't know why pointing that out is rude.

Do you know how many convicted felons in prison claim to have found the lord? Do you know how many of them continue smuggling in drugs, using drugs, using and manipulating women and family on the outside, and being physically violent towards other inmates officers etc.

How many addicts find god and go on to continue their addictions and all the twisted demented acts they need to do to continue to feed it? Prostitution, theft, drug dealing themselves..

Being a follower of Christ SHOULD show in ones actions, when it doesn't it should cause people to question whether you are really a follower of Christ. That's the bottom line. I don't know why that is offensive.
 

Damien50

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People of every faith have more than their fair share of bad apples but Rainerann made it look like accepting Christianity (and no other religion) could somehow cure them of their troubles when we know that's not the case. For example, Christianity allows one to drink alcohol so how could Christianity set an alcoholic free?
Being able to drink is part of our freedom but choosing to get drunk or not is choosing the lord of this world or Christ. An alcoholic has to make the decisions that will keep him in the clean path. God won't condemn him for abstaining completely or partaking a little.

I don't think any faith will cure anyone of their problems. The theocracy of God in Israel for example.

Give some people an inch and they take a mile.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@rainerann Kay, I understand all that but what separates us from say an individual that acknowledges Christ but had never even read the Bible? When God comes to separate the wheat from the chaff, what is the parallel of our wheat?

@Red Sky at Morning
You mention a life of holiness but that doesn't only entail following the commandments and teachings of Christ. So what is one to do to live a Holy life?
We know God's standards. Holiness delights in keeping them. Next week I am going to buy my wife some Birthday presents simply because I love her.

Now for the bit that it would take the experience to explain... I want to live my life for God's pleasure. His Holy Spirit speaks to my spirit and I understand that voice. Sometimes I ignore His voice and do my own thing and I feel grief and disconnection. I then return in repentance, receive forgiveness and carry on. The more I know the Bible, the more God's Spirit seems to remind me of his standards.

Philippians 3 puts it way better than me.

"12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."
 

rainerann

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Yes I do, when they have other motivations for becoming a Christian. I think they will conform to the world. For example, the sorcerer who wanted to pay the disciples to be able to use the power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17-19). This is someone who would still conform to the world because they want to become Christian so they can have magic powers.

However, I think some people are Christian and conform to the world because they really don't know how to change this behavior. For example, I was sexually abused when I was younger. When I would go to church, I didn't know how the two experiences would work together so I would try to look for an example of what I should do. How would being a Christian change how I could live my life even though this happened to me, but I never asked anyone and things like this are often kept secret. So I never change and I started to get angry until I had the opportunity for the truth to come into the light and I was able to talk to someone about the Bible and my abuse.

So I was Christian, but there were still secrets. So I would conform to the world because of this in some ways, but Jesus said, "So do not be afraid of them. For nothing is concealed that will not be uncovered, or hidden that will not be made known." (Matthew 10:27).

That is worth repeating, "do not be afraid of them," so when a Christian is conforming to the world, it probably means they are hiding something. The Devil loves when we are living in darkness and afraid to speak out. Therefore, I don't think this is always as malicious as people make it out to be because they want to reject Christianity for whatever reason. Therefore, they will look reasons to do this and use people who are struggling as a crutch that justifies their rejection of Christ.

However, there is power in the Holy Spirit and this will continue to set a person free for as long as that person continues to accept that Jesus is the Son of God.
 

Damien50

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We know God's standards. Holiness delights in keeping them. Next week I am going to buy my wife some Birthday presents simply because I love her.

Now for the bit that it would take the experience to explain... I want to live my life for God's pleasure. His Holy Spirit speaks to my spirit and I understand that voice. Sometimes I ignore His voice and do my own thing and I feel grief and disconnection. I then return in repentance, receive forgiveness and carry on. The more I know the Bible, the more God's Spirit seems to remind me of his standards.

Philippians 3 puts it way better than me.

"12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."
That's still not answering the question. You're giving me terms and verses but what are these Holy things that please the Lord that a Christian should be doing?
 

Kung Fu

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Being able to drink is part of our freedom but choosing to get drunk or not is choosing the lord of this world or Christ. An alcoholic has to make the decisions that will keep him in the clean path. God won't condemn him for abstaining completely or partaking a little.
Try telling that to an alcoholic. Every alcoholic started with a drink here and there but a year down the road they're swimming in it. Keeping an alcoholic on a clean path would be to tell him he should give up alcohol. Telling an alcoholic to accept Jesus and only drink a little is like telling a crack addict that he should only be taking hits once in a blue moon. It simply does not work.
 

Kung Fu

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However, there is power in the Holy Spirit and this will continue to set a person free for as long as that person continues to accept that Jesus is the Son of God.
What about the millions of people prior to the birth of Jesus who guided them? Also, what about the isolated islands on earth and the people living on them who have no contact with the outside world? They have never heard of Jesus so how would they be guided?
 

rainerann

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@rainerann Kay, I understand all that but what separates us from say an individual that acknowledges Christ but had never even read the Bible? When God comes to separate the wheat from the chaff, what is the parallel of our wheat?

@Red Sky at Morning
You mention a life of holiness but that doesn't only entail following the commandments and teachings of Christ. So what is one to do to live a Holy life?
I can't say that I am qualified to judge this completely, but the more obvious example of chaff is described in Revelation 16:10-11

"The fifth poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues because of their pain and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, yet they did not repent of their actions."

So this is chaff. There are several places in the book of Revelation where I believe it is evident that something has changed spiritually and people are aware of the presence of God. Another example is:

"They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!" (Revelation 6:16).

So there is some sort of change that takes place in the final hours of the world where people know that judgement is coming and that prophecy is being fulfilled. When the bowl is poured on the world and we can directly go, "this is what the prophecy says." When this happens, the prophecy says that people will blaspheme God rather than turn to Him and repent. This is what the prophecy regarding the wheat and chaff means because the separating of the wheat and chaff is something that takes place when the prophecy is fulfilled.

Outside of this, many people like to wonder what it means for people while we are living in the world today. I think the same thing applies, it is just hidden in darkness until it will be revealed when the prophecy is fulfilled that some people reject Christ because they want to reject Him, not because they don't know or it is just by some accident. This is what the Bible calls chaff.

For the middle ground, I do not have any way to know for sure. I know that God does judge on an individual basis evidenced by Zelophehad's daughters who were given an inheritance even though women were not considered for an inheritance. An exception was made because Zelophehad didn't have a male heir and they were judged separately. I think this will apply to some people.

I think the Bible describes this in 1 Corinthians 3:15
"If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Therefore, there might be many who are saved, but only as through fire.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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What about the millions of people prior to the birth of Jesus who guided them? Also, what about the isolated islands on earth and the people living on them who have no contact with the outside world? They have never heard of Jesus so how would they be guided?
Good questions - the topic is worth discussing (maybe even its own thread?) and I have a few ideas but I'm mowing my lawn and it looks like rains coming soon!!! I will have a ponder...
 

Damien50

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Try telling that to an alcoholic. Every alcoholic started with a drink here and there but a year down the road they're swimming in it. Keeping an alcoholic on a clean path would be to tell him he should give up alcohol. Telling an alcoholic to accept Jesus and only drink a little is like telling a crack addict that he should only be taking hits once in a blue moon. It simply does not work.
Sin to drink to excess but no command by God to get wasted.
 

Damien50

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I can't say that I am qualified to judge this completely, but the more obvious example of chaff is described in Revelation 16:10-11

"The fifth poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues because of their pain and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, yet they did not repent of their actions."

So this is chaff. There are several places in the book of Revelation where I believe it is evident that something has changed spiritually and people are aware of the presence of God. Another example is:

"They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!" (Revelation 6:16).

So there is some sort of change that takes place in the final hours of the world where people know that judgement is coming and that prophecy is being fulfilled. When the bowl is poured on the world and we can directly go, "this is what the prophecy says." When this happens, the prophecy says that people will blaspheme God rather than turn to Him and repent. This is what the prophecy regarding the wheat and chaff means because the separating of the wheat and chaff is something that takes place when the prophecy is fulfilled.

Outside of this, many people like to wonder what it means for people while we are living in the world today. I think the same thing applies, it is just hidden in darkness until it will be revealed when the prophecy is fulfilled that some people reject Christ because they want to reject Him, not because they don't know or it is just by some accident. This is what the Bible calls chaff.

For the middle ground, I do not have any way to know for sure. I know that God does judge on an individual basis evidenced by Zelophehad's daughters who were given an inheritance even though women were not considered for an inheritance. An exception was made because Zelophehad didn't have a male heir and they were judged separately. I think this will apply to some people.

I think the Bible describes this in 1 Corinthians 3:15
"If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Therefore, there might be many who are saved, but only as through fire.
My bad, thanks for the explanation, I meant

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 KJV
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What causes one to acquire these precious stones and metals? Is it really only belief in God and following the commandments?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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My bad, thanks for the explanation, I meant

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 KJV
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What causes one to acquire these precious stones and metals? Is it really only belief in God and following the commandments?
Abide in me and you will bear much fruit.

Relationship.
 

rainerann

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My bad, thanks for the explanation, I meant

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 KJV
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What causes one to acquire these precious stones and metals? Is it really only belief in God and following the commandments?
Yes
 

JoChris

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What exactly was rude? There's fact that some people profess faith in Christ or being born again and their behavior doesn't change at all. I don't know why pointing that out is rude.

Do you know how many convicted felons in prison claim to have found the lord? Do you know how many of them continue smuggling in drugs, using drugs, using and manipulating women and family on the outside, and being physically violent towards other inmates officers etc.

How many addicts find god and go on to continue their addictions and all the twisted demented acts they need to do to continue to feed it? Prostitution, theft, drug dealing themselves..

Being a follower of Christ SHOULD show in ones actions, when it doesn't it should cause people to question whether you are really a follower of Christ. That's the bottom line. I don't know why that is offensive.
If there are self-proclaimed Christians who find Christ in prison, and then return to a life of crime and REMAIN there, can you give some website links?
BTW that is believable unfortunately. There is backsliding - Christians are sanctified sinners after all - but Christians *should* grow in holiness and good deeds over their lifetime.
 

JoChris

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Try telling that to an alcoholic. Every alcoholic started with a drink here and there but a year down the road they're swimming in it. Keeping an alcoholic on a clean path would be to tell him he should give up alcohol. Telling an alcoholic to accept Jesus and only drink a little is like telling a crack addict that he should only be taking hits once in a blue moon. It simply does not work.
An alcoholic who becomes a Christian still needs support to become a non-alcoholic and remain there.
After all Alcoholism is a physical condition as well as a spiritual one.

Some Christians may break the cycle completely after conversion, others might struggle with backsliding in this area for quite some time. This is where some mercy and personal support would be far more constructive than merely claiming that person is not a real Christian.

A alcoholic who saw no wrong with their heavy drinking but after becoming a Christian suddenly recognises it as sin and tries to stop - that is a very promising sign of real conversion.
 

justjess

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You want me to provide links for personal stories that merit no media attention whatsoever? How exactly am I supposed to do that?

You can't tell me you don't know anyone personally who bangs on about Jesus and the Bible but lives a very ugly life. I've known to many of them to believe that.. I wish I didn't but it is what it is.

All I'm saying is that professing faith in Jesus being god really shouldn't Be the one and only qualifying factor of what's makes a Christian.

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

Sinning is One thing, your whole entire life being a sin quite another. I would hope faith would show in actions.
 
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