Protestant "Just War" Theory Revisited

[Todd]

I, personally, think it either a fortuitous twist of fate or a grace of God's providence that St. Paul, in his epistle, provided Christians a loop-hole, or an out, from what I understand as the abject pacifism of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.
.

But, but, but, Paul never contradicted Jesus! How dare you suggest otherwise....LOL!

 

[Todd]

After your initial shock, I hope that you come back and say some more. It's not just a theory of Romans, it's a practical application, with potentially explosive, earth-shattering consequences.

Paul stated that worldly rulers are instruments of God is quite the polar opposite to what we see in the temptation of Jesus. The devil clearly states that the kingdoms of the world belong to him and Jesus does not deny this. Jesus also said his kingdom is not of this world. The idea that any nation was or ever will be a Christian nation is absurd....there is no such thing. To think that God has given a secular ruler any authority is quite contrary to the words of Jesus.

Until Christ returns to set up the millenial reign God is in heaven laughing at it all.

As a citizen of the United States I think the only justified war is a defensive war. I don't consider pre-emptive strikes as justified. Until a foreign army sets foot on our shores I don't think war is justified at all. As far as defending allies, again until the agressor steps foot on our allies territory we have no business going to war.

 

[Karlysymon]

Paul stated that worldly rulers are instruments of God is quite the polar opposite to what we see in the temptation of Jesus. The devil clearly states that the kingdoms of the world belong to him and Jesus does not deny this. Jesus also said his kingdom is not of this world. The idea that any nation was or ever will be a Christian nation is absurd....there is no such thing. To think that God has given a secular ruler any authority is quite contrary to the words of Jesus.

Until Christ returns to set up the millenial reign God is in heaven laughing at it all.

As a citizen of the United States I think the only justified war is a defensive war. I don't consider pre-emptive strikes as justified. Until a foreign army sets foot on our shores I don't think war is justified at all. As far as defending allies, again until the agressor steps foot on our allies territory we have no business going to war.

What do you have to say about Isaiah's (45) prophecy about Cyrus the Great? Or, for that matter, Nebuchadnezzer's dreams of the tree and the gold statue?

 

[Todd]

What do you have to say about Isaiah's (45) prophecy about Cyrus the Great? Or, for that matter, Nebuchadnezzer's dreams of the tree and the gold statue?

Yes God intervened in the OT for the sake of Israel. The physical kingdom of Israel was still part of God's plan. God clearly told Israel that the kindgom would be taken away from them and Jesus said the kingdom was no longer of this world.

 

[Karlysymon]

Yes God intervened in the OT for the sake of Israel. The physical kingdom of Israel was still part of God's plan. God clearly told Israel that the kindgom would be taken away from them and Jesus said the kingdom was no longer of this world.

Thanks for your reply. Most people often wonder about these particular verses. if God is in charge, why the likes of PolPot (Cambodia) or Stalin. I think it is a case of; there are leaders ordained, by God, to hold office and others He permits to be. Scripture doesn't seem to speak the same way about Cyrus and Alexander.

 

[Daciple]

It's good to hear from you! I wonder. How do you not only read but also interpret the verse from Romans to which Robert Jeffress, Evangelical adviser to Trump (in the op), referred when he said this:

"When it comes to how we should deal with evildoers, the Bible, in the book of Romans, is very clear: God has endowed rulers full power to use whatever means necessary — including war — to stop evil, ... In the case of North Korea, God has given Trump authority to take out Kim Jong Un.”​

Although he doesn't specify, I think he is clearly referring to these verses, and I can see, from more a logical than theological standpoint, how he has arrived at his conclusion and understanding:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."
(Romans 13:1-4)​

Honestly my position has already been given by @Todd and @rainerann, I agree 100% with:

The idea that any nation was or ever will be a Christian nation is absurd....there is no such thing. To think that God has given a secular ruler any authority is quite contrary to the words of Jesus.

In reality, in terms of Christianity, this is a protection for us. It is to say that we can be safe from persecutions by following laws within a certain area and living at peace. No leader will be able to harm us if we do this because they are only in authority to punish people when they commit murder or steal. So, essentially, we shouldn't be afraid of leaders.

There is no such thing as a Christian Nation, never will be, ever. I agree that it is ridiculous to think that Trump or America is Gods Hand in attacking Evil, as the Nation of America murders millions all the time in unjust wars. The same ideology would also allow for N Korea to attack us in some Faith belief they are the Divine Instrument to end America. Its the same ignorance I see in Islam where regardless of peoples feelings, the facts are Billions of Muslims believe they are literally the Divine Instruments of Allah to bring Justices by the way of Violence upon the unbelieving Nations including America and the West. Are they now justified in their Terrorism and Murder because of either that Quote from the Bible or the Quran? Of course not, especially in lieu of Christian Scriptures that always revert to pacifism.

Like Todd said I could only possibly see a justification for war if they literally came and either set boots on our shores or bombed us. In a National and Political light I must accept the ability of a Nation to defend itself and I personally would want my Government to keep other Nations from taking me over. If I wanted to live in another Nation I can move there, but I dont. For the many flaws in America I am thankful I live here and I refuse to take my Freedoms for granted especially Religious...

As for the Scripture quoted, Rain is on point, the idea behind it is that if we live a Christian Lifestyle we ought not to be worried about those in power, because in GENERAL the Laws and those in power are there to ward off Evil. While I dont trust the Police especially today, I can say that now that I am a Christian and am not breaking the Law (save like speeding) I pretty much dont fear them. In the past I feared them much more, why? Because I was breaking the Law constantly.

With that said it is also wise to understand Pauls life in relation to when he wrote this, clearly he understood that Governments are Evil and Corrupted, much of his life was spent being beaten, stoned and imprisoned by those in Power. So what is really the fullness of his philosophy and teaching concerning this?

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

And Peter on the Subject:

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Peter and Paul both fell to Death at the hands of Corrupt Governments, they understood the Evils of it, however their lives and their teachings are that we ought to live as peacefully with others as possible and to follow the Law of the Land (as long as they dont violate our Faith) walking as Christians and in doing so we know that we ought to not have to worry about the Governments however if we are persecuted still walk Faithfully that their Evil may be exposed and know and your Faith and God shall be Glorified.

I reject fully the idea that the Bible supports America going to war or we need to follow every Law, at some point it was a Law to murder Christians (and will be again) do you think Paul and Peter would follow said Law? Never, let God be True and every man a Liar...

 

[rainerann]

I think there are many comparisons between Christianity and the exile that preceded Christ. Christianity is a sort of continuation of the experience of exile because the Messiah did not come to restore the nation of Israel, but to give Israel spiritual freedom. This could be a subject in itself how the ministry of Christ responds to the exile that came before Him.

Therefore, I think the instructions that Jeremiah gives to the Jews going into exile are relevant and are echoed by Paul in his instruction to the church. We are in a very similar state in many ways. When Jeremiah is explaining that they will be taken into captivity, he tells them they basically have two choices. They can resist being taken into captivity by Babylon and try to escape to Egypt, but if they do this they will die by sword, pestilence, and famine; or, they can be taken into captivity to Babylon and expect some relief from the burden of captivity by being obedient to this judgment (Jeremiah 42:14-17).

In some ways, the New Covenant plays the same melody just like how the tune for Twinkle Twinkle Little Star is also the same tune for the ABC song. The New Covenant would be similar to accepting some relief by accepting the Messiah and a more painful experience of exile comes from rejecting him.

“Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: Build houses and live in them; plant gardens and eat their produce. Take wives and have sons and daughters; take wives for your sons, and give your daughters in marriage, that they may bear sons and daughters; multiply there, and do not decrease. But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare." (Jeremiah 29:4-7).

I think this is a very similar position to our position as Christians living in so many different nations and this is essentially what Paul is expressing when he says that we should submit to authority.

 

[Aero]

The attempt to avoid lines on the sand.... that's an attempt at peace. I am all for peace but peace cannot mean what is has been taken to mean, as Rafael Correa has discussed. Rousseau was correct.... man is innately good but is in chains. Life is struggle. If you embrace that it's struggle, then it's easier. If you simply want to retreat into a corner..... you'll never acquire peace that way. Broken-spiritness, defeatism..... those represent a lack of character- not virtue.

Kim Jong Un is not a madman. What we're told about North Korea is a bunch of nonsense. But I made a thread about North Korea. I don't feel like repeating all that.

It's not about avoidance strategies. And I don't mean to sound so direct, but it's about being assertive. You can stand your ground without drawing lines around you. If other people choose to start drawing lines than they should be made aware. That you either aren't moving or will fly right over their front line.

There is more glory in being aggressive, or even passive aggressive. But we aren't really talking about military combat. Because avoiding your enemies aggression is key to winning. At least by the Art of War's definition of winning. When we aren't in combat, we can absorb it all without being brutalized. For the most part anyway. I shall refer to Mahatma Gandhi.

That was Tupac's stance. Tupac decided he wanted to diss basically every rapper alive.

He was gonna get into this gangbanging stuff, get into all this violence, diss every rapper ever....... claimed "I know the secret to war, so cowards fear me"..... all that was pure delusion. He didn't attain some sort of ultimate knowledge. All he did was end up getting himself killed.

That's funny we can't talk about Machiavelli without bringing up Tupac. And I think you are right. Both men I've brought up were both assassinated. Although I think they went a little bit further than just standing their ground. If a person is even remotely considered an activist than enemies will gather around. At that point you literally can't survive without the right allies.'

These are tragic stories though. Tupac especially because he could of done so much more. He could of harnessed his power the right way. The way of Yin and Yang. But what would Islam say about Taoism?

 

[Serveto]

I have spent years thinking about this definition of enemy alongside claims that George Bush was a man of faith. It still bothers me to this day. I remember being in a Christian bookstore years ago and seeing this book being sold called"The Faith of George W. Bush" and wanting to throw up.

Apparently, there is a sequel. It's the same "faith," presumably, but different president. As I, the inveterate skeptic, see it, and even if I am judging a book by its cover, that faith, at this point, might best be described as faith in what Dr. Andrew Bacevich calls "The Church of America the Redeemer," which church exports the peace which passeth all understanding upon the wings of many a snow white Raytheon war jet dove.

 

[rainerann]

Apparently, there is a sequel. It's the same "faith," presumably, but different president. As I, the inveterate skeptic, see it, and even if I am judging a book by its cover, that faith, at this point, might best be described as faith in what Dr. Andrew Bacevich calls "The Church of America the Redeemer," which church exports the peace which passeth all understanding upon the wings of many a snow white Raytheon war jet dove.

View attachment 4075

LOL! That just goes to show how desperately TPTB are trying to control the demographics between a "christian" conservative and a liberal democrat. To me, this is the sign of the end of the two-party system. As far as Trump is concerned, from the perspective of the church, the opinion was much more split than it was during the Bush years.

At least 50% of the church didn't support Trump because he doesn't exactly mirror the behavior of our pastors if we are expecting presidents to represent Christian values. Pence helped persuade some people because he does present the impression of a "christian" politician, but Trump left many of my peers in the church stuck between a rock and a hard place. Many people I talked with leaned in the direction of Trump because they didn't like Hillary, not because they saw him as a spiritual leader. However, I have already seen the articles comparing him to Cyrus by a few. That doesn't represent the larger demographic in the church. For many people in the church, Trump was a real offense to our senses.

I took the leap and went third party because of it and I am seeing more and more Christians lean Libertarian as well. TPTB are losing the hold that they have had since Reagan and they know it, which means that pushing Hillary as the primary candidate was the absolute worst move they could have made that caused it all. Hillary had a political background that made her campaign comparable with having Nixon run as president twice. That is how bad it was, and it has caused a fall that is causing them to grasp at straws.

I think if you look closer at the demographics representing Trump, people will see that there is a difference between a Republican and a Christian who is also registered as a Republican. I think Trump has a lot more support from a nationalist Republican than a Christian Republican, but TPTB are trying to lump us together as one demographic to maintain a two-party system that can be controlled during election time so that it is a guarantee that during election time, there are only two candidates to choose from. This has been effective since Reagen because Reagen was a better actor than Hollywood gave him credit for possibly, but Clinton getting the primary was a very bad strategic move and has caused them lose whatever Reagen gained in defining the parties the way we presently see them defined.

At this point, the way the parties are defined needs to change and this would be a good strategic move for the public. We would need to redesign our electoral college so that the system is still fair and California and New York are not able to elect the president every four years, but we definitely need to have more competition on the ballot than just two candidates. In my opinion, that is the intent of a book like this, to maintain a two-party system.

 

[elsbet]

Thank you, Red, I always appreciate the fact that you are willing to hear me out, without getting too irritated with me for asking the questions.

Yes, clearly, if and whenever it is not only necessary, but also desired and expedient.

Yes, but we should wage continuous, unrelenting war anyway . When it comes to theories of war and how best to win them, I tend more toward Machiavelli, Napoleon and Bernard-Henri Lévy than St. Paul and Jesus.

It seems to me rather more likely that, in this case, the more enlightened of us would disappear. With that said, if I were in the audience when Jesus preached his Sermon on the Mount, I would ask that same, or similar question: "If I allow the aggressor to punch me on my left cheek, will he disappear, or be eliminated, if I turn to him my right cheek also?" I think not. But, then again, and given that I am not a pacifist Christian, I have never actually put the principle into action in any serious attempt to prove it.

Thank you for asking and for participating in the thread.

Consider though that children of the living God are not left to chance. The verse goes on to reinforce the reality that what we reap, we sow.. how we judge is how we will be judged, and how we give to others is how we will also receive.


Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.”
Luke 6: 37,38

 

[Serveto]

... I have already seen the articles comparing him to Cyrus by a few ...

In this ongoing theater of the absurd, and not that it is all that predictable, I expect that, in upcoming scenes, or acts, we will see dramatically enacted what happens when, to Trump's already hyper-inflated ego and ZIONarcissIST Personality Disorder (ZNPD) his Chabad-Lubavitcher and Evangelical courtiers, advisers and policy wonks add a Messianic Complex. I am staying tuned, with my seat-belt buckled.

Consider though that children of the living God are not left to chance. The verse goes on to reinforce the reality that what we reap, we sow.. how we judge is how we will be judged, and how we give to others is how we will also receive. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.”
Luke 6: 37,38

Thank you. I certainly appreciate those ideas, and have even heard it said that, according to Quantum and other theories, a butterfly's wings might ultimately result in a hurricane. That gives some insight into how much damage even an unkind word can do. For every action there is reaction, and sometimes, it is said, he who sows the wind, reaps the whirlwind.

 

[Karlysymon]

In this {click here} past post, in a thread now asleep, I referred to the so called, at times controversial "just war" theory, and claimed that, historically, it has been used by Catholics and Protestants alike, as and when the need for war arose. I gave examples of WWI and WWII.

Here that theory is, recently presented, or re-presented and thus updated, by an American Evangelical adviser to President Trump, Robert Jeffress, stated in a somewhat abbreviated, soundbite form. I am not being facetious here, but if anybody wonders, when Jeffress refers to the book of Romans, it is to the New Testament book of the same name.

I see that Jeffress' pronouncement has stimulated discussion, controversy and debate within the Christian community and beyond, at least in the blogosphere, and it seems to me rightly so, given its implications.
____________________________________
‘God has given Trump authority to take out Kim Jong Un,’ evangelical adviser says
By Sarah Pulliam Bailey August 9

President Trump, left, greets pastor Robert Jeffress on July 1 during the Celebrate Freedom Rally at the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts in Washington. (Oliver Douliery/Pool/European Pressphoto Agency)​

Texas megachurch pastor Robert Jeffress, one of President Trump’s evangelical advisers who preached the morning of his inauguration, has released a statement saying the president has the moral authority to “take out” North Korean leader Kim Jong Un.

“When it comes to how we should deal with evildoers, the Bible, in the book of Romans, is very clear: God has endowed rulers full power to use whatever means necessary — including war — to stop evil,” Jeffress said. “In the case of North Korea, God has given Trump authority to take out Kim Jong Un.”
___________________________________________
Source

Separation of church and state...

God Wills It! The War on Terror as the Launching of an American Crusade

His warning!

“This is a new kind of evil. And the American people are beginning to
understand. This crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take a while.” “And the American people must be patient.” “I’m going to be patient.”

Its been said that war has an alchemical component to it. And i believe this just can't be all about resources in a specific geographical spot, most especially, the Middle East.

 

[Karlysymon]

Now is the time to be on the look-out for this kind of language (religious), in selling or justifying war.
This is part of Trump's statement after the Syrian strikes.

"So today, the nations of Britain, France and the United States of America have marshaled their righteous power against barbarism and brutality.
Tonight, I ask all Americans to say a prayer for our noble warriors and our allies as they carry out their missions.

We pray that God will bring comfort to those suffering in Syria. We pray that God will guide the whole region toward a future of dignity and of peace."