Prophetic Expectations

[TokiEl]

These are the prophecies that the misinformed say were fulfilled in 1948.

Jer 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Eze 36:24-28
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

So tell me, have all of these prophecies been fulfilled? Of course not. Israel must ALWAYS keep the law in order to be God's people. That Talmudic, unbelieving, fake bunch in Israel cannot keep the law without a temple and animal sacrifices. They have been Lo-ammi, not my people (Hos1:9) since 63AD, when they were fully blinded and deafened in Ac 28:25-27, when Paul pronounced the curse of Isa 6:9-10 upon them for the 7th and last time in scripture. In God's eyes, there is no Israel today. When God does gather Israel and really put them in the land, Israel's earthly Kingdom will start and everyone on the earth will know it.

The New Spirit is the Spirit of the New Covenant, given only to Israel (Jer 31:31, Heb 8:8). It's sole purpose will be to put the LAW into Israel's inward parts and, of course, when God gathers them, there MUST be a temple and animal sacrificing, since the law MUST be kept at that time. Note that, as late as Rom 9, about 28 years after Pentecost in Ac 2, it says that Israel owned the covenants, in 9:4. And, if the. Covenants belonged to Israel, the Gentiles didn't have them and never will have them, since the Gentiles will never have to keep the law.

Ezekiel 36 16"Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 17“Son of man, when the people of Israel lived in their land, they defiled it by their own ways and deeds. Their behavior before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her monthly impurity. 18So I poured out My wrath upon them because of the blood they had shed on the land, and because they had defiled it with their idols.

19I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered throughout the lands. I judged them according to their ways and their deeds. 20And wherever they went among the nations they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them ‘These are the people of the LORD, yet they had to leave His land.’ 21But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they had gone.

22Therefore, tell the house of Israel that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘It is not for your sake that I will act, O house of Israel, but for My holy name, which you profaned among the nations to which you went. 23I will show the holiness of My great name, which has been profaned among the nations—the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when I show My holiness in you before their eyes."

 

[Karlysymon]

What ultimately happens to Christians, including recalcitrant, disobedient Palestinian Arab Christians, in the utopia you seem to envision when the "Messiah" finally takes his throne in Jerusalem?

Benjamin Netanyahu with Ovadia Yosef (Shas Party)​

View attachment 8291​

​

"From another [Orthodox Jewish] perspective Rabbi Ovadia Yose[f], the spiritual authority of the Shas Party [in Israel], corroborated ... Rabbi Yose[f] argued in a September 18, 1989 article in Yated Ne'eman that since Israel is too weak to demolish all Christian churches in the Holy Land it is also too weak to retain all the conquered territories."​

Source (Israel Shahak)​

​

Benjamin Netanyahu with Pastor John Hagee (CUFI)​

View attachment 8292​

Playing the Jesus card
http://foreignpolicy.com/2009/07/24/playing-the-jesus-card/

There is no 3rd Temple mentioned anywhere in Scripture. In fact, it says this instead about the New Jerusalem:

King of kings' Bible, Revelation
21:2 And I John saw the Holy City, "New Jerusalem", coming DOWN from God OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared as a Bride adorned for her husband.
21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the Tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
21:5 And He that sat upon the Throne said, Behold, I make all things NEW. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are True and Faithful.

21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the Temple of it.

Let me preface this by saying: give us Christians the four gospels and we will all see black and white in regard to the birth, death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ but give us any other section of scripture and we will see a spectrum of colours. So how is it possible that the Scriptures can be so clear about Christ's life that we can see it but yet be so ambiguous when it comes to the Nephilim, the ten commandments, Israel or any other subject?

Anyway, I came across this woman's vision with, apparently Christ speaking to her:
I AM ABOUT TO SHAKE THIS EARTH MIGHTILY AND ALL WILL KNOW I AM GOD!
YOUR LEADERS HAVE CALLED FOR THE DIVISION OF MY HOLY LAND, THEREFORE, I WILL DIVIDE YOUR LAND.

Now that we are actually split on Israel's role, if any, in the end times (and all the trimmings: Gazans are eventually kicked out so Israel owns all the land, the temple is erected, etc) how would one respond to this, should "Christ" suddenly appear in the sky, decreeing disaster for those "dividing his land", because its not out of the realm of it possibility. If "Christ" is appearing to some people in visions, defending "His" land, its not a stretch of the imagination that an appearance over any given geographical spot is possible, emphasising all things to do with 'the land'. Just a thought.

 

[Serveto]

Playing the Jesus card
http://foreignpolicy.com/2009/07/24/playing-the-jesus-card/

Thank you for the good, informative article. I quote from it:

"Unlike most pro-Israel Jews, Christian Zionists emphatically support Israeli settlements and oppose the two-state solution. By no means liberal, they do not raise questions about Israel’s treatment of Palestinians. They are, quite simply, Netanyahu’s natural constituency — far more natural than the Jewish community, which tends to be too dovish for Bibi’s taste.

So, sure enough, Netanyahu was the man of the hour at this week’s Christians United For Israel (CUFI) conference in Washington. The organization’s founder, Pastor John Hagee, addressed Netanyahu — who was in Israel — by satellite, telling him that 50 million Christians support "Israel’s sovereign right to grow and develop the settlements of Israel as you see fit and not yield to the pressure of the United States government."
M.J. Rosenberg​

Little wonder that makers of political slogans manufactured the expression, "Fifth Column of Likudniks," clearly not all Jewish, clearly not all dual passport holders, operating in the USA.

 

[Kung Fu]

So, sure enough, Netanyahu was the man of the hour at this week’s Christians United For Israel (CUFI) conference in Washington. The organization’s founder, Pastor John Hagee, addressed Netanyahu — who was in Israel — by satellite, telling him that 50 million Christians support "Israel’s sovereign right to grow and develop the settlements of Israel as you see fit and not yield to the pressure of the United States government."​

M.J. Rosenberg​

And then people wonder why young people join ISIS.

 

[Serveto]

And then people wonder why young people join ISIS.

"In geopolitics, as in physics, there is no action without reaction."
Gore Vidal​

 

[Kung Fu]

"In geopolitics, as in physics, there is no action without reaction."​

Gore Vidal​

Very true indeed. I find it odd and interesting that one man's "terrorist" is another man's freedom fighter.

 

[Karlysymon]

Thank you for the good, informative article. I quote from it:

"Unlike most pro-Israel Jews, Christian Zionists emphatically support Israeli settlements and oppose the two-state solution. By no means liberal, they do not raise questions about Israel’s treatment of Palestinians. They are, quite simply, Netanyahu’s natural constituency — far more natural than the Jewish community, which tends to be too dovish for Bibi’s taste.

So, sure enough, Netanyahu was the man of the hour at this week’s Christians United For Israel (CUFI) conference in Washington. The organization’s founder, Pastor John Hagee, addressed Netanyahu — who was in Israel — by satellite, telling him that 50 million Christians support "Israel’s sovereign right to grow and develop the settlements of Israel as you see fit and not yield to the pressure of the United States government."
M.J. Rosenberg​

Little wonder that makers of political slogans manufactured the expression, "Fifth Column of Likudniks," clearly not all Jewish, clearly not all dual passport holders, operating in the USA.

No. Thanks to you because I found it while looking around Rightweb (the one you linked to with Irving Kristol), which is like my favorite pastry shop right now . The image of Bibi and Hagee was basically, the article but in pictures. Fortunately, I'd encountered Mr. Rosenberg before. I originally posted this in the Israel-Iran thread.

AIPAC and WINEP

 

[Forever Light]

Anyway, I came across this woman's vision with, apparently Christ speaking to her:
I AM ABOUT TO SHAKE THIS EARTH MIGHTILY AND ALL WILL KNOW I AM GOD!
YOUR LEADERS HAVE CALLED FOR THE DIVISION OF MY HOLY LAND, THEREFORE, I WILL DIVIDE YOUR LAND.

Now that we are actually split on Israel's role, if any, in the end times (and all the trimmings: Gazans are eventually kicked out so Israel owns all the land, the temple is erected, etc) how would one respond to this, should "Christ" suddenly appear in the sky, decreeing disaster for those "dividing his land", because its not out of the realm of it possibility. If "Christ" is appearing to some people in visions, defending "His" land, its not a stretch of the imagination that an appearance over any given geographical spot is possible, emphasising all things to do with 'the land'. Just a thought.

Indeed. And if one believes the Bible, then not only is this not outside of the realm of possibility, but it actually tells us that Christ will be put back down on the Mt. of Olives which will then be split in two to form an enormous valley:

Zechariah 14:4 And his (Christ's) feet shall stand in that Day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the East, and the Mt. of Olives shall split in half towards the East and towards the West, and there shall be an enormous valley; and half of the Mount of Olives shall move towards the North, and half of it towards the South.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of My mountains; when he (Christ) shall touch the valley of the mountain at the place he separated: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the "I AM" my God shall come, [and] all the holy ones with Him.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

 

[Karlysymon]

Indeed. And if one believes the Bible, then not only is this not outside of the realm of possibility, but it actually tells us that Christ will be put back down on the Mt. of Olives which will then be split in two to form an enormous valley:

Zechariah 14:4 And his (Christ's) feet shall stand in that Day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the East, and the Mt. of Olives shall split in half towards the East and towards the West, and there shall be an enormous valley; and half of the Mount of Olives shall move towards the North, and half of it towards the South.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of My mountains; when he (Christ) shall touch the valley of the mountain at the place he separated: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the "I AM" my God shall come, [and] all the holy ones with Him.

Your response made me realize that I lost my head when I originally quoted you and the reason was to comment on the temple.
Since the erection of the temple is directly tied to the creation of Israel, and that, apparently Christ is going to come and reign out of Jerusalem, iam baffled that Scripture is silent on the people involved in that endeavor. Cyrus was mentioned by name long before he was even born (probably) as the one who would let the exiles return, and who would rebuild the temple that Christ would grace with His presence. So, where are the verses with the names (trump, included) of everyone involved, from the creation of Israel to those who will erect it, because of the magnitude of the idea that God, Himself is coming to reign out of Jerusalem, in a temple built with human hands?

 

[gcha8e]

The OP talks about the Christian view of a prophesied rapture.

I know the following.
The great tribulation will preceed the rapture (it's not a short time, it's a time "cut off"). - happening now
The mad kings of the earth will dig bunkers in the mountains to hide in (Rev 6:15) - happening now
Before the rapture, there will be a terrible increase in hatred and betrayal in the world - happening now
It gets so bad in fact, the the Gospel of Jesus Christ is harder to see (the sun is darkened - Rev 9:2) - happening now.
There will be a tidal wave of depression and despair. - happening now
The real threat to the church will not be persecution (there will still be some of that) rather temptation of care free living (Matt 24:49) - happening now!
Believers/Saints will have their souls taken from their bodies (they'll "die"), and their bodies will be left to rot (Luke 17:37)
The apocalypse will then begin, and world war 3 will break out (our planned response).
The kings of the earth will go into bunkers (the sixth seal, Rev 6:15)
The meek will inherit the earth (subsistence farmers, primitive people)

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The OP talks about the Christian view of a prophesied rapture.

I know the following.
The great tribulation will preceed the rapture (it's not a short time, it's a time "cut off"). - happening now
The mad kings of the earth will dig bunkers in the mountains to hide in (Rev 6:15) - happening now
Before the rapture, there will be a terrible increase in hatred and betrayal in the world - happening now
It gets so bad in fact, the the Gospel of Jesus Christ is harder to see (the sun is darkened - Rev 9:2) - happening now.
There will be a tidal wave of depression and despair. - happening now
The real threat to the church will not be persecution (there will still be some of that) rather temptation of care free living (Matt 24:49) - happening now!
Believers/Saints will have their souls taken from their bodies (they'll "die"), and their bodies will be left to rot (Luke 17:37)
The apocalypse will then begin, and world war 3 will break out (our planned response).
The kings of the earth will go into bunkers (the sixth seal, Rev 6:15)
The meek will inherit the earth (subsistence farmers, primitive people)

Matthew 24:4-8 (NKJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 

[Forever Light]

Your response made me realize that I lost my head when I originally quoted you and the reason was to comment on the temple.
Since the erection of the temple is directly tied to the creation of Israel, and that, apparently Christ is going to come and reign out of Jerusalem, iam baffled that Scripture is silent on the people involved in that endeavor. Cyrus was mentioned by name long before he was even born (probably) as the one who would let the exiles return, and who would rebuild the temple that Christ would grace with His presence. So, where are the verses with the names (trump, included) of everyone involved, from the creation of Israel to those who will erect it, because of the magnitude of the idea that God, Himself is coming to reign out of Jerusalem, in a temple built with human hands?

The part that you quoted, that mentioned about dividing the land (though that seems to have been referring to the land of the US) got me to think about that verse in Zechariah about the Mt. of Olives, which interestingly I had been reading about maybe the day or two before. I don't know, but it just makes me wonder, since that is what is prophesied is going to happen, would anything that is built before then really be expected to be able to withstand such a tremendous earthquake, that will be caused by Christ, and which is going to be so powerful that it splits the mount of Olives? In the end, time will tell but personally find it an interesting thought.

 

[gcha8e]

Matthew 24:4-8 (NKJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
fulfilled - Many Jews followed various zealot false Messiah's leading up to the Jewish Revolt.
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass,
fulfilled - The Jewish Revolt from Rome, Roman Civil war, followed by Jerusalem destroyed (The AOD)
but the end is not yet.
Meaning the end of the world
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
The imperialism (White horsemen) that leads to constant nation state warfare (Red Horseman)
and there will be famines,
the black horseman
pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
the pale horseman

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
because they are sociopolitical, the real curses are the spiritual darkness/locusts, hatred, etc.... the trumpet curses

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
fulfilled - Many Jews followed various zealot false Messiah's leading up to the Jewish Revolt.
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass,
fulfilled - The Jewish Revolt from Rome, Roman Civil war, followed by Jerusalem destroyed (The AOD)
but the end is not yet.
Meaning the end of the world
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
The imperialism (White horsemen) that leads to constant nation state warfare (Red Horseman)
and there will be famines,
the black horseman
pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
the pale horseman

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
because they are sociopolitical, the real curses are the spiritual darkness/locusts, hatred, etc.... the trumpet curses

Very interesting!

You may be aware that Revelation is not entirely linear (e.g. Rev 12 appears to begin before and span the whole Tribulation).

In addition, the seven seals present an interesting question - do they unfold before or do they unfold at the outset of the Tribulation, or both?

I started to wonder if "both" were actually the case a while back, as the horsemen and judgements seemed to correlate to distinct periods of the last century or so?

 

[gcha8e]

Very interesting!

You may be aware that Revelation is not entirely linear (e.g. Rev 12 appears to begin before and span the whole Tribulation).

In addition, the seven seals present an interesting question - do they unfold before or do they unfold at the outset of the Tribulation, or both?

I started to wonder if "both" were actually the case a while back, as the horsemen and judgements seemed to correlate to distinct periods of the last century or so?

I agree partially. It is linear to a degree. The tribulation you are thinking about is the apocalypse, which cannot happen until after Christ returns. He clearly tells us that when he comes people will be preaching peace and safety and the church is backsliding due to drunken living.

I believe the earllier portions of the Revelation prophecy span from John's day all the way today. These are the three visions of 1. The 7 lampstands/7letters 2. The throne room of God, 3. The 7 seals. Once the 7th seal is opened, only then can the 7 trumpets occur - the last seal releases the trumpets (the trumpets are handed to the 7 angels).

Revelation 12 doesn't seem to me to be the whole tribulation, the great tribulation is the entire time Christ is absent, and this relates to what Acts/Peter calls "the last days" (possibly the last days of the house of Israel, and the tribulation of the Hebrew people until Christ returns).

The trumpets, the witnesses, the woman, and the beasts, these four visions are parallel to each other (they tell the same story 4 different ways) and each is split into two parts (42 months /1260 days... etc). just as Daniel's final week has two parts. These to me are 7 years (but it might be 70 years or longer).

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I agree partially. It is linear to a degree. The tribulation you are thinking about is the apocalypse, which cannot happen until after Christ returns. He clearly tells us that when he comes people will be preaching peace and safety and the church is backsliding due to drunken living.

I believe the earllier portions of the Revelation prophecy span from John's day all the way today. These are the three visions of 1. The 7 lampstands/7letters 2. The throne room of God, 3. The 7 seals. Once the 7th seal is opened, only then can the 7 trumpets occur - the last seal releases the trumpets (the trumpets are handed to the 7 angels).

Revelation 12 doesn't seem to me to be the whole tribulation, the great tribulation is the entire time Christ is absent, and this relates to what Acts/Peter calls "the last days" (possibly the last days of the house of Israel, and the tribulation of the Hebrew people until Christ returns).

The trumpets, the witnesses, the woman, and the beasts, these four visions are parallel to each other (they tell the same story 4 different ways) and each is split into two parts (42 months /1260 days... etc). just as Daniel's final week has two parts. These to me are 7 years (but it might be 70 years or longer).

It's a fascinating study - in many ways it reminds me of the secrets locked away in the parables. The meanings are unlocked by correctly aligning the picture language with the correct people, places and events.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I think it might be worth considering ways and patterns of understanding Bible prophecy separately as the question is key to resolving some if the confusions we sometimes find ourselves with...

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/multiple-prophetic-fulfillment-in-the-bible-and-why-it-matters.4040/

 

[gcha8e]

I think it might be worth considering ways and patterns of understanding Bible prophecy separately as the question is key to resolving some if the confusions we sometimes find ourselves with...

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/multiple-prophetic-fulfillment-in-the-bible-and-why-it-matters.4040/

I am not inclined to believe in multiple fulfillment, not in an explicit double fulfillment. What that does is causes to very different events to be tied to one prophecy, and it then creates the idea of ongoing fulfillment. This in turn causes a lack of surety in the word of god, and confusion. Most of the double fulfillment ideology I believe comes from a spirit of false prophecy, actually.

For example, I have learned to view the passage in Zechariah about God splitting the mount of Olives and creating a valley of escape for his people a bit differentlly. This is a metaphorical vision of Christ's prayer at the foot of the Mt of Olives, in the garden of Gathesemane, creating a pathway of forgiveness for his people. This is where his heart broke in anguish. As God is described as a rock of refuge, the Mt of Olives then represents the intercessory prayer life of Christ, making a refuge for his people.

With this viewpoint in mind, should I also look for a second fulfillment? I don't believe so. I certainly don't believe in a literal splitting of the Mt of Olives.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]