Prophetic Expectations

[TokiEl]

Isaiah 17 (plus some deductive reasoning) suggests that the Ezekiel 38 war may begin after the destruction of Damascus.

Geopolitical events are converging with Bible prophecies.

Whenever it hits the fan... this is the closest we have been so far.

 

[Bacsi]

Isaiah 17 (plus some deductive reasoning) suggests that the Ezekiel 38 war may begin after the destruction of Damascus.

Not that I beleive any of this stuff. None of the prophets were ever correct in their predictions.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Not that I beleive any of this stuff. None of the prophets were ever correct in their predictions.

 

[Bacsi]

In Kazakh there's a saying "it's been pulled by its ears". Which means, "dragged in by the head, farfetched". My Messianic Jewish neighbour was running around couple years ago like a chicken with her head cut off declaring an imminent end of the world due to "harbingers of blood moons"... The predicted time came and went, with the catastrophe yet to happen... Since then she's quieted down and never talks about any Christian stuff.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

In Kazakh there's a saying "it's been pulled by its ears". Which means, "dragged in by the head, farfetched". My Messianic Jewish neighbour was running around couple years ago like a chicken with her head cut off declaring an imminent end of the world due to "harbingers of blood moons"... The predicted time came and went, with the catastrophe yet to happen... Since then she's quieted down and never talks about any Christian stuff.

I read "harbingers" like reminder letters. God is merciful and long-suffering with us @Bacsi - He will give warning after warning, just look at Jonah with Ninevah.

One day the last harbinger will have come, passed and been scoffed at, then it will be too late.

Matthew 25

1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

 

[Bacsi]

I read "harbingers" like reminder letters. God is merciful and long-suffering with us @Bacsi - He will give warning after warning, just look at Jonah with Ninevah.

One day the last harbinger will have come, passed and been scoffed at, then it will be too late.

Matthew 25

1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

The point is, as much as I've looked at Bible prophecy and its interpretation, it's a pure scam. I know to you it's all true and all, but no end is coming. There will be tectonic changes in our world for sure, only a complete idiot can't see that. There won't be a destruction of the earth etc. Big wars, geoclimatic disturbances etc - yes. The Western dominance will cease in the next 10-30 years. After 2020, there will be significant changes in global politics, with power dynamics shifting to Eurasia. These are my prophecies.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The point is, as much as I've looked at B9ble prophecy and it's interpretation, it's a pure scam. I know to you it's all true and all, but no end is coming. There will be tectonic changes in our world for sure, only a complete idiot can't see that. There won't be a destruction if the earth etc. Big wars, geoclimatic changes etc - yes. The Western dominance will cease in the next 10 years. After 2020, there will be significant changes on the world politics, with power dynamics shifting to Eurasia. These are my prophecies.

Thank you. I understand your perspective and I suspect (though it's just my feeling) time will tell sooner rather than later.

If things begin to take a more Biblical direction than you expect, especially if the church is suddenly and inexplicably not here any more at least you will have some information you may have previously dismissed to hand in this forum ;-)

 

[Bacsi]

Thank you. I understand your perspective and I suspect (though it's just my feeling) time will tell sooner rather than later.

If things begin to take a more Biblical direction than you expect, especially if the church is suddenly and inexplicably not here any more at least you will have some information you may have previously dismissed to hand in this forum ;-)

OK. Sounds good.

Appart from this very interesting subject, m'y personal attitude is what does a beleif like that would make a person do? Like my neighbour. She seemed to be certain, on one hand, on the other hand I didn't see her selling all her possessions and starting a world salvation tour... Nope. She went about her life business as usual. To me it's not just a scam, it's hypocritical lip sevice. Christians shout about end of the world while continuing business as usual. Why bother? It's like a strange miningless circus to me. If anything, I see vile enjoyment of their thought of other people suffering while them being spared. I can't help but have very low opinion of such people...

 

[phipps]

Jesus is the only one who’s been to Heaven and back. No human being has been up to Heaven and back down again (that would be cruel and God is not a cruel God). Moses, Enoch, Elijah, who were taken to Heaven never came back to live on earth and never talked to man except once. That was when Moses and Elijah came and talked to Jesus.

 

[TokiEl]

Jesus is the only one who’s been to Heaven and back. No human being has been up to Heaven and back down again. Moses, Enoch, Elijah, who were taken to Heaven never came back and talked to man except once. The only time any man has come back down and talked, it was when Moses and Elijah came and talked to Jesus.

2 Corinthians 12 2 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth,

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."



Acts 14 19 "And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.

20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.

21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,

22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed."

 

[phipps]

I agree with most of this Paragraph, but Spiritual Resurrection is a Resurrection no matter how you want to try and cut it away to fit a Preconceived Eschatology



Is that right? So you believe the Devil is a literal Dragon and a literal Serpent, or is that symbolism?

Do you believe that a literal Chain is going to go around a literal flesh Devil and chain him literally in a bottomless pit? How do you chain something in a bottomless pit, there nothing at the bottom to chain him to right?

I bet any money if you are honest you understand that all of that is Symbolism, the Devil is NOT a literal Dragon nor a literal Serpent, those are descriptions of his essence. There is NOT going to be a literal Chain that literally goes around a fleshly Devil and literally chains him into a literal bottomless pit, again all symbolism to describe the Devils influence over the nations at some point.

Do you believe that when the Devil is loosed and gathers the Nations, that they will literally be the number of the sands of the sea, or is this symbolism for a vast number?

If we take this fully literal then as I said before ONLY those who are beheaded in the Tribulation (which if you believe in Pre Trib Rapture, wont be anyone in the Church today) are going to be safe from the 2nd Death. Do you literally believe ONLY those not who just died but were specifically beheaded in the Tribulation are really safe from the 2nd Death?

Is it literally ONLY those who are beheaded in the Tribulation that are going to be Priests of God? That means 99.99% of all Christians are NOT going to be reigning with Christ, and it also puts the other Scriptures that I have shown which state we ARE already NOW Kings and Priest with Christ into disarray, doesnt it?



How is that the 1st Resurrection if we already agreed that when we are Born Again we are Resurrected? Is this NOT a Resurrection?

What about Jesus Christs Resurrection, where is that in all of this talk of Resurrections?

This is the point I am making, everyone will agree that this is a Resurrection and then in the same breath ignore it when we start talking about the Resurrections. The 1st Resurrection is Christs Resurrection which all of us partake in when you are Born Again, then comes the 2nd Resurrection the General Resurrection of which those in Christ are Resurrected Bodily first followed by the Glorification of those Saints Alive at His coming and lastly followed by the rest of the Dead.

The 1000 yrs is Symbolic of Christs current reign on Earth and in Heaven (along with us) from the time He ushered in His Kingdom at His Death and Resurrection (which is the ACTUAL 1st RESURRECTION) at which time Satan was bound (in that he has been continually losing his influence over the nations as the Gospel goes out) until he is let loose to have power once again unrestrained on the nations and finally culminating in Christs Return where the Devil is defeated, the 2nd Resurrection of the Body is done and then Judgment...



I agree with this.



I believe that the fullness of the Kingdom is given to us then, as in the Spiritual and the Physical will be one, however I know that we are ruling and have already been translated into the Kingdom of the Son. We dont have to wait to receive the Kingdom, we are participating now, we are Kings and Priests now, we are already in the Kingdom....

The only difference is that Christ is ruling now and at the point of the New Heaven and Earth He will hand over the Perfected Kingdom to His Father...



I agree...



Correct, you must be apart of the 1st Resurrection, otherwise the 2nd Death will have power over you...



Umm I have quoted it already, so if you would be so kind to give me your interpretation of these Scriptures one by one...

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son

Are you going to be, or have you already been translated us into the Kingdom? The verbiage in this verse clearly states its not a future event but a past event, it has already happened. We have already been delivered from the power of darkness and have already been translated into the Kingdom.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Has made us, not will make or shall make but has as in past tense made us Kings and Priests, just as He has already washed us from our Sins in His own Blood. We are already Kings and Priests, but whats the point of being a King or Priest if there isnt a Kingdom to rule over or preform Priestly Duties in?

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Has raised us and has made us sit in Heavenly places with Jesus, not will not shall but has as in it has already happened.

Matt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

When did the Son come into His Kingdom? Was it not at His Resurrection? How was Jesus able to make the statement that some standing there 2000 yrs ago would witness Him coming into His Kingdom if the Kingdom wasnt ushered in until 1000's of years later.

All of these verses clearly tell us that we have already been ushered into the Kingdom, that we have already been made Kings and Priests, that we have already begun to Rule with Christ, that we already are sitting in Heavenly Places.

Please tell me how none of these are speaking of the present time, but instead of a future time.



I agree it is in Heaven as well as now on Earth, but the 1000 years is now, you are in the midst of it.



Amen the Bible clearly teaches that we are Kings and Priests now in the Kingdom of the Son, that we reign with Christ now on Earth as we live and in Heaven when we die. It also teaches there are only 2 Resurrections not 3 not 4 or 5 but 2. The 1st was Christ and all who are Born Again partake in HIS Death and Resurrection:

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

And then of course everything you and others are quoting pertaining to the 2nd and final Resurrection at the Coming of Christ and the End of the Age.

Lets not add Resurrections and other things into the clear teachings of the Bible, God Bless!!!

I use different words to yours. I know when I use spiritual resurrection it means conversion, I can tell the difference between that and the end time resurrections to eternal life and eternal death and you understand what I mean so why go on about it?

The 1000 years in the prophecy of Revelation 20 are literal. There is no symbolism attached to the years in Revelation 20 like in Revelation 11, 12, 13, or in Daniel, 7, 8 etc for example. That is what I meant. That is why I said not everything in prophecy is symbolic. Nowhere in the Bible does it say once you're born again, that is the first resurrection. That is not biblical! The first resurrection will occur when Jesus returns and I've shown scripture that pertains to it. Why spin it into something else? It is absolutely clear.

You are using end time prophecy and applying it to other parts of the Bible that aren't about end time prophecy and completely skewing the specific message of end time prophecy.

This is the last thing I will post on the subject here otherwise we will be going round in circles. These are not my words but I agree with them.

The book of Revelation is written as a chiasm. A chiasm is a double list of related items in which the order of the second list is opposite to the order of the first list. If we divide Revelation at the end of chapter 14 into two halves, and then divide each half into separate divisions we can find related pairs of content. These pairs go in opposite directions. It is organized like a mirror image.
The entire book of Revelation shows this concept at work. The first part is called the prologue; it is the introduction and is found in Revelation 1:1-8. The ending is called the epilogue and is found in Revelation 22:8-17.

The similarities are not hard fast rules. For instance, there is a warning in the epilogue that isn’t found in the prologue; and Christ’s promise to come again is found only one time in the prologue but twice in the epilogue. The writers of the Bible used their style as a method but never let the method become more important than the message. That is why we can sometimes find some exceptions to these rules. We must also keep in mind that the chapters and verses we use to organize the Bible were not determined when John wrote this book but were added more than a thousand years later.

The chiastic structure divides Revelation into two major groups. The first half deals primarily with the experience of God’s people during the Christian era. This is called the historical half. The second half deals almost exclusively with last day events and is called the eschatological half. The word ”eschatological" comes from the Greek word eschaton, meaning “end.”

The historical half covers all of human history. Therefore, it has not been completely fulfilled yet because not all of Christian history has happened yet. For example, the seventh seal, seventh trumpet, and final scene in the great controversy division are still waiting for their fulfillment. The eschatological half is still to be fulfilled in the future. We can see the inspiration of God in this beautiful demonstration of literary art as well as the love of God who does everything He can to warn us and call us out of the false systems of this world into His marvelous truth.

Understanding the Book of Revelation and the Purpose of Prophecy

The word revelation means to reveal or disclose. In a special sense, the book of Revelation is meant to reveal vital issues to the New Testament Church—the end-time Church in particular—about end-time events. God does not want us to be ignorant about the future:
 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7). God has always wanted people to be informed, aware, and warned about future difficulties. Throughout the history of Israel, He sent prophets to warn His people about future impending doom. It has always been God’s purpose to steer people away from calamity.

Jonah was sent to Nineveh to warn and rebuke the people that if they did not turn away from their evil doings, their city would be destroyed. The people of Nineveh heeded the warning and their city was spared, along with some 60,000 souls and much cattle (Jonah 3).

When the 10 tribes of Israel were heading down the path of debasement through idol worship and disgusting practices, God sent prophet after prophet to warn them to turn back. God also provided a wonderful preview of Earth’s history through Nebuchadnezzar’s dream and gave Israel hope that they would be returned from captivity to their homeland.


Biblical Prophecy: Warning and Encouragement


God uses prophecy for two purposes: to warn and to encourage. For example, prophecy warns us of the Enemy’s plans and encourages us with hope and the promise of victory. The book of Revelation is full of such warnings and encouragements. It discusses the forces working against Christ and the actions they will take, so that we can recognize them when they happen, and steer clear of any participation with the Antichrist forces.

We also read in the book of Revelation about the promise of final restoration—a new heaven and a new Earth. These come with the final destruction of sin and Satan, the originator of sin. Because Revelation pertains specifically to the end of time, and because we live in the closing time of Earth’s history, this book, in particular, deserves our attention if we want to recognize the signs and know the future.

When we understand what is to take place, our fear of the end times won’t control us. And that’s what God wants. When calamities occur, many are afraid and wonder what is happening. But those that study God’s Word don’t need to be afraid. In His kindness, God gives us the sure word of prophecy for our warning and encouragement.


The Book of Revelation is a Revelation of Christ

Jesus Christ is the central theme of everything we read in Revelation. He is the heart of the book. It is crucial that as we study some of the darker prophecies about the Antichrist and the final controversy, we remember that Christ is the ultimate Victor over all evil.

 

[TokiEl]

The book of Revelation is written as a chiasm. A chiasm is a double list of related items in which the order of the second list is opposite to the order of the first list. If we divide Revelation at the end of chapter 14 into two halves, and then divide each half into separate divisions we can find related pairs of content. These pairs go in opposite directions. It is organized like a mirror image.
The entire book of Revelation shows this concept at work. The first part is called the prologue; it is the introduction and is found in Revelation 1:1-8. The ending is called the epilogue and is found in Revelation 22:8-17.

This is my impression as well.

Revelation is probably not chronological as the last trump is at the end of chapter 11.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

This is my impression as well.

Revelation is probably not chronological as the last trump is at the end of chapter 11.

Song of Solomon also ends in the middle. We are do programmed to linear narrative we almost assume it!

 

[TokiEl]

Song of Solomon also ends in the middle. We are do programmed to linear narrative we almost assume it!

Are you joking in my hour of seriousness ? l0l

 

[Daciple]

I use different words to yours. I know when I use spiritual resurrection it means conversion, I can tell the difference between that and the end time resurrections to eternal life and eternal death and you understand what I mean so why go on about it?

Because I dont agree with you maybe? Hence everything I am writing...

The 1000 years in the prophecy of Revelation 20 are literal

Why?

Why are the 1000 yrs literal? Why are they not symbolic as the other instances you stated? Why are they not symbolic like IDK the entire rest of the Chapter and pretty much the entire book? What makes you switch from literal to symbolic to literal in the same few verses?

Nowhere in the Bible does it say once you're born again, that is the first resurrection.

Is that right?

What then do you make of THIS Resurrection?

Matt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Here are the graves opening, bodies of the Saints rising, and coming out of the grave and when exactly does this take place?

After His (Jesus) Resurrection.

Yet again, another instance of Resurrection, and this time fulfilling EXACTLY the types of things you are saying happens in the future, that is NOT accounted for in your nor other Pre MIl ideologies of the Resurrections. What about these Saints that came forth from the Grave, are they NOT included in the Resurrection? What make you of THIS Resurrection which of course in not accounted for in the ideology that you are espousing?

What does Jesus Himself say?

John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

The 1st Resurrection is Jesus, and all those who come after (or in the past who believe on the Messiah) take part in THAT Resurrection, which is also called being Born Again. THAT is the 1st Resurrection, the 2nd is the General Resurrection. You keep saying:

The first resurrection will occur when Jesus returns and I've shown scripture that pertains to it. Why spin it into something else? It is absolutely clear.

But it is NOT what you say it is, because you are discounting everything I have brought up. I mean you arent even answering any of the questions I have asked you to take into consideration, you just keep repeating yourself. I get your position, I used to hold it, but THESE are the problems I see with it, and thus why I dont agree with what you claim.

How can the 1st Resurrection take place when Jesus comes back, when we have blatantly clear a Resurrection of Jesus and the Resurrection of the Saints and the clear teaching that we all partake in the Resurrection of Jesus when we are Born Again?

The 2nd Resurrection is when Jesus comes back...

You are using end time prophecy and applying it to other parts of the Bible that aren't about end time prophecy and completely skewing the specific message of end time prophecy.

Absolutely not, I am giving you clear Biblical Teaching as to what pertains to the Resurrection, YOU are ignoring it all to stick to your preconceived ideas.

Jesus Himself said HE is the Resurrection, after HE Resurrected, Saints came out of the Graves and THEY were Resurrected. When you are Born Again you partake in Jesus Christs Resurrection, and everyone who is apart of THAT Resurrection will have no fear of the 2nd Death, THAT is what the Bible teaches.

The Physical Resurrection comes when Christ comes back which is at the END of the Age, there is no other 1000 literal year time period between His 2nd Advent and everything else. He comes back, smites the Earth in Judgement, Resurrects the Wicked and Righteous, throws the Wicked into the Lake of Fire, creates New Heaven and the New Earth, hands it over to the Father and we who were Born Again and partook of the 1st Resurrection inherit it forever...

What you pasted has no bearing on the details of our conversation...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Are you joking in my hour of seriousness ? l0l

Not at all! We assume all books are linear because that has become the most popular format. Look at Rev 12 - it spans from before and right through the trib period, starting with the sign and going right through with picture language.

 

[cfowen]

Because I dont agree with you maybe? Hence everything I am writing...



Why?

Why are the 1000 yrs literal? Why are they not symbolic as the other instances you stated? Why are they not symbolic like IDK the entire rest of the Chapter and pretty much the entire book? What makes you switch from literal to symbolic to literal in the same few verses?



Is that right?

What then do you make of THIS Resurrection?

Matt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Here are the graves opening, bodies of the Saints rising, and coming out of the grave and when exactly does this take place?

After His (Jesus) Resurrection.

Yet again, another instance of Resurrection, and this time fulfilling EXACTLY the types of things you are saying happens in the future, that is NOT accounted for in your nor other Pre MIl ideologies of the Resurrections. What about these Saints that came forth from the Grave, are they NOT included in the Resurrection? What make you of THIS Resurrection which of course in not accounted for in the ideology that you are espousing?

What does Jesus Himself say?

John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

The 1st Resurrection is Jesus, and all those who come after (or in the past who believe on the Messiah) take part in THAT Resurrection, which is also called being Born Again. THAT is the 1st Resurrection, the 2nd is the General Resurrection. You keep saying:



But it is NOT what you say it is, because you are discounting everything I have brought up. I mean you arent even answering any of the questions I have asked you to take into consideration, you just keep repeating yourself. I get your position, I used to hold it, but THESE are the problems I see with it, and thus why I dont agree with what you claim.

How can the 1st Resurrection take place when Jesus comes back, when we have blatantly clear a Resurrection of Jesus and the Resurrection of the Saints and the clear teaching that we all partake in the Resurrection of Jesus when we are Born Again?

The 2nd Resurrection is when Jesus comes back...



Absolutely not, I am giving you clear Biblical Teaching as to what pertains to the Resurrection, YOU are ignoring it all to stick to your preconceived ideas.

Jesus Himself said HE is the Resurrection, after HE Resurrected, Saints came out of the Graves and THEY were Resurrected. When you are Born Again you partake in Jesus Christs Resurrection, and everyone who is apart of THAT Resurrection will have no fear of the 2nd Death, THAT is what the Bible teaches.

The Physical Resurrection comes when Christ comes back which is at the END of the Age, there is no other 1000 literal year time period between His 2nd Advent and everything else. He comes back, smites the Earth in Judgement, Resurrects the Wicked and Righteous, throws the Wicked into the Lake of Fire, creates New Heaven and the New Earth, hands it over to the Father and we who were Born Again and partook of the 1st Resurrection inherit it forever...

What you pasted has no bearing on the details of our conversation...

In Mt 27:52, it says the bodies arose. They weren't alive. It takes both the spirit and the body to be a living soul - Gen 2:7. Their spirits returned to God who gave it when they died. Think zombies. This was definitely not a resurrection, since they weren't given resurrection bodies and they didn't have eternal life. They surely were returned to their graves

Christ was the firstfruits. He wasn't what the Bible terms as the first resurrection on Rev 20:5-6. The 1st resurrection, in time, will be the Church which is His actual Body, where Christ is the Head.
Eph 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

This church is part of the dispensation of the mystery (secret) that had been hid in God since the world began and was revealed after Acts ended,.It is found only in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles.
Col 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Eph 3:9
And to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This church started after Acts ended. Except for Christ, it has absolutely NOTHING directly to do with anything that went before in in the other 59 books. It is made up of Gentiles today and those Jews today who believe what Christ achieved at Calvary. The nation of Israel has not existed since this parenthetical 2000 year Gentile period started in about 63AD. Nothing in these 7 post-Acts epistles were known before Acts ended. Even Paul didn't know, as evidenced by his 7 (or, 6) Acts epistles. This present day Gentile Church has a Hope in the Heavenly Places, where Christ is now seated at the right hand of God.
Eph 1:20 (where Christ ascended to)
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 (where we are resurrected to - same place)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Also note:
Col 3:20 (NIV)
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

The 1st resurrection, in time, is called the Appearing, which is found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles. When Christ first appears to the principalities and powers in Heavenly Places, we will be directly resurrected there to appear with Him
Col 3:4 (Note that glory is defined in Ps 8:1 as a place above the Heavens)
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

This Appearing is totally different than the rapture. The Appearing is from the Greek word "epiphinea" and the rapture occurs at Christ;s second Coming (Greek = parousia). We know the rapture will involve the Acts church, both Jews and Gentiles, plus millions of other Jews destined for the New Jerusalem. The lies that say the saints resurrected at the rapture will be taken to Heaven is IMPOSSIBLE because, in scripture, no Hebrew (Israelite, Jew) ever had a chance of going to the Highest Heaven, except for those today that believe in Christ through Paul's Gospel of 1Cor 15:1-4.

Since the other 59 books don't contain anything wtitten in Paul's post-Acts books, except for the references to Christ, no one had any idea that the actual first resurrection is the Appearing at the end of this present Gentile age, which, if it does last exactly 2000 years, it will end in 2063. No one in those 59 books had a chance of going to Heaven. Today, we are God's chosen people but, after the Appearing, Israel will once again have that honor.
Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

After the Gentile Church of today is resurrected at Christ's Appearing, Elijah will return and restore ALL things. At that time, I think the time will be restored back to the 1st century, probably to the time of the beginning of Acts. Israel will accept Christ, and Israel's earthly Kingdom of Heaven, with David on the throne and Christ ruling from Heaven, which could last as long as 700 years, will be established. At the end of the Kingdom, the tribulation will occur and, at the end of that, Christ will return for His second Coming and the rapture will occur, followed by the 1000 year Millennium, when Christ will rule with a rod of Iron on the earth. Then, the New Heavens and New Earth, and then, God All in All.

I still haven't figured out when the valley of dry bones will be raised, since it is the OT nation of Israel, whose calling is the New Earth. Probably right before the tribulation, since all Israel will have to go through it. The Gentiles in the Acts church, the only Gentiles that will go through the rapture, will also go through the tribulation, since they were part of Israel, being grafted into Israel. I do believe that all Israel, at some point, will come to Christ, and all will be saved, since salvation for them is a national thing, unlike the individual salvation of us Gentiles.

Right Division, 2Tim 2:15, the #1 key to the understanding of the New Testament. Those that don't RIGHTLY divide, like every preacher in the mainstream denominational church system, is lucky to understand even 50%. These churches are basically Jewish synagogues, where mainly Jewish doctrine is taught to unsuspecting Gentiles. At least half of what they teach are things given ONLY to Israel, like the rapture. The Gentiles will never receive those things.

Please think about this. The entire teaching in Paul's post-Acts books, except for those few passages about Christ's ministry and the cross, was formulated BEFORE the world began and, therefore, it cannot (and doesn't) contain anything that occurred AFTER the world began, which is EVERYTHING in those other 59 totally Jewish Books. From Adam through the end of Acts, it was hidden in God nd no one in history knew anything about it until it was revealed to Paul (by Christ -Eph 3:1-3) and Paul started revealing it to the world in Ephesians. The only doctrine that applies directly to us Gentiles today, and tells us about OUR future, is contained in Paul's 7 post-Acts books. It is impossible that anything written in those other 59 books is TO us or ABOUT us.

 

[Daciple]

In Mt 27:52, it says the bodies arose. They weren't alive. It takes both the spirit and the body to be a living soul - Gen 2:7. Their spirits returned to God who gave it when they died. Think zombies. This was definitely not a resurrection, since they weren't given resurrection bodies and they didn't have eternal life. They surely returned to their graves

Lol think Zombies? Yeah right, that surely isnt Biblical. The clearly were Resurrected, they clearly were alive and appeared to others. You want us to believe that deceased people showed up as zombies after Christ Resurrected? Come on now... Did Christ show up as a Zombie now too? Nonsense...

Christ was the firstfruits. He wasn't what the Bible terms as the first resurrection on Rev 20:5-6. The 1st resurrection, in time, will be the Church which is His actual Body, where Christ is the Head.
Eph 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Thats funny cuz the Bible is rather conclusive that we are the firstfruits as well. Could it be because we are in Christs Body, and Christ Body is already Resurrected as the Bible clearly demonstrates?

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

I have a feeling you probably interpret the 144000 incorrectly, thinking its a literal 144000 or some other ideology. Its symoblic meaning the whole of all mankind that has been saved from Israel and Gentiles. 12 tribes of Israel, 12 Apostles of Christ and then 100,000 meaning fullness of fullness aka 144000, all of mankind that is saved. Or as has been demonstrated, the Church which of course encompasses all saved people as opposed to your Hyper Dispensationalism.

This church started after Acts ended. Except for Christ, it has absolutely NOTHING directly to do with anything that went before in in the other 59 books.

Incorrect, the Church is encompassing all those who ever believed, the Church and Spiritual Israel are the same thing however I know you dont accept this because of the Hyper Dispensationalism you hold to...

This present day Gentile Church has a Hope in the Heavenly Places, where Christ is now seated at the right hand of God.

You even quote it but dont even believe it, we are ALREADY sitting in Heavenly Places in Christ. We are ALREADY Kings and Priests, as I have stated multiple times, there is no need to wait you are there if you have been Born Again, as the Bible declares.

The 1st resurrection, in time, is called the Appearing, which is found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles. When Christ first appears to the principalities and powers in Heavenly Places, we will be directly resurrected there to appear with Him
Col 3:4 (Note that glory is defined in Ps 8:1 as a place above the Heavens)

No again you are wrong, what did Jesus say?

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Martha spoke of a bodily resurrection at the last day (which of course there is only ONE as she states) but Jesus corrects her and say HE is the Resurrection.

I agree when Christ comes we will be with Him, there is no argument in that specific fact however pretty much everything else you say I disagree with 100%. The 1st Resurrection is Christ, the 2nd Resurrection is the bodily of the believers 1st, those here are translated, then the rest of the dead.

You of course have this wholly different ideology which literally only a handful of humans in all of history would even slightly agree, but there definitely isnt this "1st Resurrection" then Rapture in the method that you are saying here...

The lies that say the saints resurrected at the rapture will be taken to Heaven is IMPOSSIBLE because, in scripture, no Hebrew (Israelite, Jew) ever had a chance of going to the Highest Heaven, except for those today that believe in Christ through Paul's Gospel of 1Cor 15:1-4.

That is NOT what the Bible says whatsoever, the Bible is replete with references to Israelities being in Heaven. Jesus went into Abrahams Bosom and brought them into Heaven. Its like you dont believe that the Blood of Christ flows from the beginning of the World until the End or something...

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

After the Gentile Church of today is resurrected at Christ's Appearing, Elijah will return and restore ALL things. At that time, I think the time will be restored back to the 1st century, probably to the time of the beginning of Acts. Israel will accept Christ, and Israel's earthly Kingdom of Heaven, with David on the throne and Christ ruling from Heaven, and could last as long as 700 years, will be established. At the end of the Kingdom, the tribulation will occur and, at the end of that, Christ will return for His second Coming and the rapture will occur, followed by the Millennium, when Christ will rule with a rod of Iron on the earth.

Yeah all that is just what you made up, and has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible, just like you saying the Old Testament Saints that were Resurrected with Christ were Zombies. Looks like you literally think David himself will be on an Earthly Throne, wow. Jesus is sitting on the Throne of David. I mean you really dont seem to understand Scripture whatsoever...

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

All of those things are shadow of the Heavenly Realities, and the fact is the Old Covenant has been done away, it makes absolutely no sense for God to send His Son to die on the Cross to literally do away with the Old Covenant to then go backwards and re establish the Old Covenant on Earth along with the other Rituals. Jesus Christ Himself sits on the Real Throne of David which is the Throne in Heaven.

When Christ comes back He will destroy the Earth, as Scripture is clear about:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

We dont look for an Earthly Rule of Christ, we look for the actual fulfillment of all of the Promises, the New Heaven and New Earth which will happen when Christ comes back, burns the Earth melting even the elements in heat and creates them. There will be no Earth as we see it now for Him to rule on, this going back to 1 AD is nonsense. Jesus rules now, sits on the Throne now, the 1000 yrs is Symbolic of His Reign now of which we Reign with Him on the Earth and when we die in Heaven...

 

[Daciple]

I still haven't figured out when the valley of dry bones will be raised, since it is the OT nation of Israel, whose calling is the New Earth. Probably right before the tribulation, since all Israel will have to go through it.

Since you edited the post and I didnt see it. Dude just how many Resurrections do you believe there are? Your End Time belief system is all over the place...

Right Division, 2Tim 2:15, the #1 key to the understanding of the New Testament.

Amen, your sect definitely does not do this. I mean I have read many different ideologies concerning Eschatology but yours is the most wild and out there Ive ever seen in my life. And none of it conforms to Scripture...

At least half of what they teach are things given ONLY to Israel, like the rapture. The Gentiles will never receive those things.

You rob the people of God their blessings constantly trying to make God a respecter of Persons, Scripture says the exact opposite.

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

The Bible is very clear that the promises God gave to Israel are given to those in Christ by Faith. You utterly destroy these Scriptures.

Gal 3;16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Very simple Biblical Doctrine, Doctrine that has been taught since the beginning and held to since the foundation of the Church. You come in with your brand new doctrine, claim it as truth and the way to discern the Bible and essentially state that literally no one in the History of the Church understood how to "rightly divide" the Scripture. Absolutely no one believes pretty much anything you have to say concerning "rightly dividing" the Scriptures. Its never been taught that way including from the Apostles themselves or Paul.

The Bible is absolutely clear concerning what you are saying and doing:

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace;

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1 Tim 4;4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

2 Tim 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

The Doctrine you are trying to teach absolutely no one on Earth has ever taught except a very tiny few starting in the past few decades. The Bible doesnt teach it nor does any other teacher that has existed prior to like 1970. We are to hold fast to the sound words and doctrines that were established at the time the Bible was written and the Early Church completed it. Everything else we are to look at with complete suspicion. Might as well be Joseph Smith out here with your doctrines...

From Adam through the end of Acts, it was hidden in God nd no one in history knew anything about it until it was revealed to Paul (by Christ -Eph 3:1-3) and Paul started revealing it to the world in Ephesians.

I mean except the fact that the Prophets continually wrote about it all the time. Was it hidden and they had pieces, yes but to say no one knew nothing is complete ignorance. David continually prophecies of Christ, in fact the entire Old Testament 100% testifies of Christ. It is Christ all together but you want us to accept that none of it pertains to Christ or to the Gentiles. You have zero clue what you are talking about...

Or other than the fact that Peter literally preached it in the beginning of Acts ect...

. The only doctrine that applies directly to us Gentiles today, and tells us about OUR future, is contained in Paul's 7 post-Acts books. It is impossible that anything written in those other 59 books is TO us or ABOUT us.

The Entire Bible applies to us, the Bible itself literally tells this to us, but you want to tell us it doesnt lol okie dokie brother...

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Not some, not a few, but ALL Scripture is profitable for doctrine reproof correction and instruction, and so we clearly understand this, Paul was attesting to the Old Testament here above any and everything else. In fact He literally teaches everything concerning the Gospel OUT OF THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Sorry man I go with the Bible and not your sect and false teachers...

 

[phipps]

Testing the prophets


If God communicates His intention through His servants the prophets, and Satan counterfeits the messages of God through false prophets, then it is vital that we test the prophets to see if the message is indeed from God. On one hand, the Scriptures admonish us to "Despise not prophesyings" (1 Thessalonians 5:2) and to "Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper" (2 Chronicles 20:20).

On the other hand, there are warnings against false prophets:

"For false christs and false prophets will rise and will show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect" (Matthew 24:24).

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).

False prophets claim to have dreams and to see visions, so the Scriptures must provide criteria whereby the authenticity of the prophets' statements may be tested.

"Do not despise prophecies, test all things; hold fast what is good" (1Thessalonians 5:20-21).

The Bible lists a series of tests that can be applied to prophets to determine whether they are genuine or not. Many of these tests can be individually counterfeited, but collectively, they provide an impassable barrier to false prophets. False prophets can quote Scripture or have some of their prophecies come true, but they can still be false prophets—subtly using every opportunity to lead God's people astray.

A true prophet of God will meet all the Biblical criteria, which can be summarized as follows:

1. A true prophet's message will be in complete harmony with the word of God and the law of God.

"To the law and to the testimony! If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20).

Most modern-day prophets would fail this test. A prophet cannot negate what God has revealed in His Word, and all the precepts of the law are binding (James 2:10). When the law is not observed, the gift of prophecy is withdrawn (Lamentations 2:9).

2. A true prophet's predictions must come to pass.

"...when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18:22).

A word of warning: A prophet's predictions may occur, and may even be accompanied by miracles. But if they do not pass the other tests, the prophet is still false.

"If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying 'Let us go after other gods'—which you have not known—and let us serve them, you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him" (Deuteronomy 13:1-4).

Signs and wonders do not prove a prophet's validity. As in the above Scriptural example, prophets' words are not always in harmony with the law of God. Satan will work miracles in the last days to deceive many (Revelation 16:14).

3. A true prophet prophesies to edify the Church, counseling and advising in religious matters.

"But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification and exhortation, and comfort...but he that prophesieth edifieth the church." (1Corinthians 14:3-4).

A true prophet will not condone sin (1 John 3:4).

True prophets will exhort the church to a higher standard, and will exemplify God's principles in their own lives. False prophets, such as 16th-century seer Nostradamus, do not live according to God's Word and do not build up the Church with their prophecies.

4. A true prophet will exalt Christ as the Son of God and the Saviour of humankind.

"No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us...Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God" (1 John 4:12,15).

After His resurrection, Jesus expounded the Scriptures to His disciples, revealing to them the prophetic proclamations regarding Himself (Luke 24:27).

Again a word of warning regarding this test. Many false prophets will say to Jesus in the last judgment, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works" (Matthew 7:22)?

The Lord will not recognize them as His, as they practiced iniquity (Greek: anomia — against the law of God). They seem to pass the test, but fail in regard to the law.

5. The true prophet will speak with authority (Matthew 7:29).

Jesus is the supreme example, and He spoke those things which He had seen and heard from the Father (John 8:26,28,38). A prophet will likewise reveal those things with authority that have been revealed to him by God.

6. The true prophet will bear good fruit.

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" (Matthew 7:20).

This test is compelling. Does the prophet live a life in harmony with the will of God and are the lives of those touched transformed so that they too live godly lives? Once again, a word of warning: No one is without sin, and all fall short of the glory of God.

"Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months" (James 5:17).

Although Elijah had faults and passions just like us, he strove to live a godly life and the fruits of his labor testify that he was truly a prophet of God.

7. The true prophet, when in vision, will exhibit physical signs.

In vision, the prophet's eyes will be open.

"The utterance of him who hears the words of God, who sees the vision of the Almighty, who falls down, with eyes wide open" (Numbers 24:4).

Daniel 10 describes the physical state of the prophet Daniel while in vision.

"And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. Therefore I was left alone and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me; for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. Yet heard I the voice of his words; and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face to the ground" (Daniel 10:7-9).

Daniel had "no strength," and he must have fallen to the ground as he lay with his "face to the ground." The prophet does not, however, remain in this helpless state on the ground, but he is lifted up by God, and while still in vision, stands up on his feet (Daniel 10:10-11).

In vision, the prophet will have no breath in him, and no strength.

"And suddenly one having the likeness of the sons of men touched my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke, saying to him who stood before me, My Lord, because of the vision, my sorrows have overwhelmed me, and I have retained no strength. For how can this servant of my Lord talk with you my Lord? As for me, no strength remains in me now, nor is any breath left in me. Then again, the one having the likeness of a man touched me and strengthened me" (Daniel 10:16-17).

No mention is made of the restoration of breathing while in vision. The prophet is sustained by God while in vision. In summary, a prophet in vision shows these signs:

i) Falls down weak

ii) Is raised up and strengthened by God

iii) Has the eyes wide open during the vision

iv) Does not breath, even when speaking

These signs cannot be readily counterfeited. In fact, modern so-called visionaries tend to fall down with their eyes closed, and they have breath in them, because only God can sustain life without breath.