Prophetic Expectations

[Karlysymon]

Thank you for (finally) asking. I am Edom.

{tongue-in-cheek mode on}

I remember reading (Orthodox Jewish) Maimonides' paragraph iv assertion that Christianity arose from Esau/Edom, and decided that, even though I am at best somewhat estranged from the religion of my fathers, that is, Christianity, I would nevertheless fully embrace my identity as an Edomite.

With that said, I notice that Esau, for his geographical portion, was Biblically allotted Mount Seir, and I have established an admittedly unpopular, poorly funded competitor movement to Zionism, in which I am trying to get the world, especially the power elite of America's State, Treasury and Defense Departments, to support my project to return, in mass, to Mount Seir and kick the present, native inhabitants into unarmed dumpsters so that I can rightfully reclaim my olive groves and condo with mountainous view.

{mode off}

Its a question that has always lingered at the back of mind. We are told Palestinians= Ishmael, Israelis=Isaac. Someone brought it up again in a non-religious thread and I decided not to push an inquiry. I first got to know about all this schism from John Hagee. And I believed him. I was a baby and as a man of God, he had no reason to lie to me....,or so I thought.

If Palestinians are Ishmaelites (iam ignorant as to how people arrived at that conclusion and i don't believe they are Ishmaelites or descendants of Philistines), who are the Edomites and where are they, because as far as I can see, those are all Arab countries, neighboring Israel.

Then the implications, if it is the case...Israel crushing his twin brother Esau (as witnessed at the border fence, a week or two ago) just doesn't look/sound good.

I anticipate other responses.

@DesertRose
God is just. We should take comfort in that.

 

[Karlysymon]

Thank you for (finally) asking. I am Edom.

I would probably be okay with the physical aspect of it. But I definitely wouldn't want to be a spiritual Edomite.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I would probably be okay with the physical aspect of it. But I definitely wouldn't want to be a spiritual Edomite.

I think it us both a nation and a "type". Kind of reminds me of how Ezekiel uses the King of Tyre for parallels as well as how to allude to a particular individual.

I may be (a small) part Jewish so I'm not sure if I would count as Edom. Perhaps both Jew and Greek would class me as a Mudblood.

 

[DesertRose]

 

[Karlysymon]

I think it us both a nation and a "type". Kind of reminds me of how Ezekiel uses the King of Tyre for parallels as well as how to allude to a particular individual.

I may be (a small) part Jewish so I'm not sure if I would count as Edom. Perhaps both Jew and Greek would class me as a Mudblood.

Yes, that's true. The reason usually given in making the connection to Ishmael is the verse that "he'll be against his brothers". Because now, you have, within Isaac's house, the Edomites, The Jews(Judah and Benjamin) and the 10 Lost tribes. Shouldn't they reclaim their territory as the Jews have? I mean, they have that right, as we are told, the Jews have the right too.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Yes, that's true. The reason usually given in making the connection to Ishmael is the verse that "he'll be against his brothers". Because now, you have, within Isaac's house, the Edomites, The Jews(Judah and Benjamin) and the 10 Lost tribes. Shouldn't they reclaim their territory as the Jews have? I mean, they have that right, as we are told, the Jews have the right too.

The issue I guess with the lost tribes is how do they know if they used to be Israelites 2500 years ago? Certainly there are groups with an imprint of folk memory of being Hebrews, but it has entered into legend and obscurity. It is an interesting study trying to determine who the lost tribes were (if you don't mind not getting definitive answers!).

 

[Karlysymon]

The issue I guess with the lost tribes is how do they know if they used to be Israelites 2500 years ago? Certainly there are groups with an imprint of folk memory of being Hebrews, but it has entered into legend and obscurity. It is an interesting study trying to determine who the lost tribes were (if you don't mind not getting definitive answers!).

I don't mind not getting definitive answers but I think the issue of the 10 tribes has been well explored. Silence, though, surrounds what happened to Esau's progeny. They should still be around, don't you think?

 

[Golden Age]

I'm going to take a thoroughly jaded and unromantic approach to Jerusalem and the Holy Lands, I'm afraid.

It doesn't matter what anybody's religious books state or the lofty ideals outlined in various (meaningless) UN charters. Ultimately, the issues in this turbulent part of the world will only be solved through geopolitical change.

Either one or both parties relinquish their claims to the area and sue for a lasting peace or one side is able to prevail over the other by changing the 'facts on the ground' . . . !?

No amount of phoney appeals to the 'ideals of mankind' will be able to address the complexity of this problem.

Get 'real' people!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I'm going to take a thoroughly jaded and unromantic approach to Jerusalem and the Holy Lands, I'm afraid.

It doesn't matter what anybody's religious books state or the lofty ideals outlined in various (meaningless) UN charters. Ultimately, the issues in this turbulent part of the world will only be solved through geopolitical change.

Either one or both parties relinquish their claims to the area and sue for a lasting peace or one side is able to prevail over the other by changing the 'facts on the ground' . . . !?

No amount of phoney appeals to the 'ideals of mankind' will be able to address the complexity of this problem.

Get 'real' people!

How about a peace treaty of some sort? It doesn't have to be a "forever" deal, just something that calls halt to the current madness giving time for a permanent settlement to be reached?

It would perhaps need to be internationally enforced and give both sides some of what they want? Maybe the UN could step in and mediate the peace, perhaps taking control of flashpoints in Jerusalem? I guess it would take a strong leader to pull it all together though?

Hmmm

 

[Golden Age]

@Red Sky at Morning

A few years ago, the US could have used its leverage (as an independent broker) to bring both sides together and force them into ceasing hostilities.
I'm not sure the US has that type of influence, anymore.

Moreover, I doubt Israel would be prepared to entertain the idea of a UN force in Jerusalem, which, it now considers its historic and cultural capital !?

So we have a juggernaut going downhill, without any brakes ... (can't imagine this will end well for either side)

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Red Sky at Morning

A few years ago, the US could have used its leverage (as an independent broker) to bring both sides together and force them into ceasing hostilities.
I'm not sure the US has that type of influence, anymore.

Moreover, I doubt Israel would be prepared to entertain the idea of a UN force in Jerusalem, which, it now considers its historic and cultural capital !?

So we have a juggernaut going downhill, without any brakes ... (can't imagine this will end well for either side)

Perhaps it will take an entirely new political alignment to create this peace solution.

However it happens, it seems quite surreal to me that the kind of resolution people are hoping for (and despairing of) is the very thing a mercurial figure (with Biblical resonance) will offer at some point...

 

[Golden Age]

@Red Sky at Morning:
"However it happens, it seems quite surreal to me that the kind of resolution people are hoping for (and despairing of) is the very thing a mercurial figure (with Biblical resonance) will offer at some point..."

In other words, you have no solution !?

 

[Karlysymon]

How about a peace treaty of some sort? It doesn't have to be a "forever" deal, just something that calls halt to the current madness giving time for a permanent settlement to be reached?

It would perhaps need to be internationally enforced and give both sides some of what they want? Maybe the UN could step in and mediate the peace, perhaps taking control of flashpoints in Jerusalem? I guess it would take a strong leader to pull it all together though?

Hmmm

Do you honestly think it possible??

“When we talk about the Holy Land, God’s promise of the Holy Land, we’re talking about real estate on both sides of the Jordan River. So the sense of a greater Israel and expansionism is really important to this community,” University of North Texas professor Elizabeth Oldmixon told Vox last year. “Jerusalem is just central to that. It’s viewed as a historical and biblical capital.”http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/israel/2018/may/here-are-the-biblical-prophecies-connected-to-the-us-embassy-opening-in-jerusalem

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Red Sky at Morning:
"However it happens, it seems quite surreal to me that the kind of resolution people are hoping for (and despairing of) is the very thing a mercurial figure (with Biblical resonance) will offer at some point..."

In other words, you have no solution !?

I don't have a solution that excludes God, if that's what you mean. On the other hand neither did Noah!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Do you honestly think it possible??

“When we talk about the Holy Land, God’s promise of the Holy Land, we’re talking about real estate on both sides of the Jordan River. So the sense of a greater Israel and expansionism is really important to this community,” University of North Texas professor Elizabeth Oldmixon told Vox last year. “Jerusalem is just central to that. It’s viewed as a historical and biblical capital.”

I would say that if a unique (and often discussed) event occurred which led to the "Evangelical" (and not just the American) voice all but disappearing, the balance of power in the US would swing very hard indeed away from support for Israel. Under such circumstances, new and creative solutions to avoid all out war may appear very attractive to all parties.

 

[Serveto]

I'm going to take a thoroughly jaded and unromantic approach to Jerusalem and the Holy Lands, I'm afraid.

It doesn't matter what anybody's religious books state or the lofty ideals outlined in various (meaningless) UN charters. Ultimately, the issues in this turbulent part of the world will only be solved through geopolitical change.

Either one or both parties relinquish their claims to the area and sue for a lasting peace or one side is able to prevail over the other by changing the 'facts on the ground' . . . !?

No amount of phoney appeals to the 'ideals of mankind' will be able to address the complexity of this problem.

Get 'real' people!

Good advice. A lot of us are real, and part of my reality is the recognition that, at this point, apocalyptic agendas on all sides, Jewish, Christian and Muslim alike, are fully in effect. What is more, atop (or below) the agendas are the global power elite, who also have their agenda, a sort of would-be new catholicity, commonly referred to as a New World Order.

I think Trump's clear, wanton disregard for international law (except when he and his predecessors appeal to it to invade Iraq or place economic sanctions against "rogue" states), visible in his "unilateral" declaration to recognize Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem, makes him less a candidate for the new "Cyrus," or Messiah, unless it be the Antimessiah, but more for St. Paul's "son of perdition," characterized by lawlessness. Of course I do know that the Torah/Talmudists and their Zionist Christian political accomplices, allies, wives and midwives will say that the "law" in question is the Torah, so I say that with some cheek. Anyway, I stated my position in the "Christian Zionism Discussed" thread, but will repeat it here:

As I only superficially understand, what is being argued is whether Jerusalem, legally speaking, remains a "corpus separatum," a city that, given its history and "holy places," is shared by Jews, Christians, Muslims and others, as this relates to UN Res 181 (1947). A series of subsequent UN resolutions has tended to either reiterate or confirm that, and the USA is a participant, a signatory to those resolutions. Together, those and related resolutions state that nobody, be it Israel, Jordan, Egypt, the Vatican or casino moguls Sheldon Adelson and Donald Trump can unilaterally change that status: it is to be changed by way of negotiations, and Jerusalem, ref the Oslo Accords, is a "final status" issue in those between Israel and Palestine. Our allies, Sweden, Great Britain, France, Italy, and others recently confirmed that by voting for the legal "status quo" (and thus opposed to the move by Adelson/Trump) in the UN Security Council meeting hurriedly convened to address the issue.

 

[Golden Age]

@Red Sky at Morning:
"I don't have a solution that excludes God, if that's what you mean. On the other hand neither did Noah!"

Thank you.

God is eminently practical. He has tolerated Jews, Babylonians, Romans, Christians and Muslims controlling Jerusalem. So long as there is [a] political solution, God is likely to accept it.
After all, which God would tolerate tumult and violence on his 'Holy Land' !?

Therefore, references to "mercurial figures (with Biblical resonances)" are not only unnecessary but they fail to provide rational and viable solutions to difficult political issues.

Lets just keep Noah on his boat, shall we?!

 

[Golden Age]

@Serveto:
"Good advice. A lot of us are real, . . . "

Your very good self is one reason why I keep coming back to these forums because I know there is somebody with whom I can have a sober and reasoned discussion with.

How the hell can anyone address issues in the Middle East with people that have a tendency to disappear into the rabbit holes of their own [very peculiar] eschatology?
If people want to bring in "mercurial figures (with Biblical resonances)" into the conversation, I reserve the right to bring in Sith Lords (with Star Wars resonances) !?

The way I see it, the Sith have as much relevance to geopolitical issues as any Jewish, Christian or Muslim 'Messiah'.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Red Sky at Morning:
"I don't have a solution that excludes God, if that's what you mean. On the other hand neither did Noah!"

Thank you.

God is eminently practical. He has tolerated Jews, Babylonians, Romans, Christians and Muslims controlling Jerusalem. So long as there is [a] political solution, God is likely to accept it.
After all, which God would tolerate tumult and violence on his 'Holy Land' !?

Therefore, references to "mercurial figures (with Biblical resonances)" are not only unnecessary but they fail to provide rational and viable solutions to difficult political issues.

Lets just keep Noah on his boat, shall we?!

Indeed -

let's hope for the sake of those who have yet to make their choice that dark clouds and upheavals stay away for some time yet!

 

[Serveto]

@Serveto:
"Good advice. A lot of us are real, . . . "

Your very good self is one reason why I keep coming back to these forums because I know there is somebody with whom I can have a sober and reasoned discussion with.

How the hell can anyone address issues in the Middle East with people that have a tendency to disappear into the rabbit holes of their own [very peculiar] eschatology?
If people want to bring in "mercurial figures (with Biblical resonances)" into the conversation, I reserve the right to bring in Sith Lords (with Star Wars resonances) !?

The way I see it, the Sith have as much relevance to geopolitical issues as any Jewish, Christian or Muslim 'Messiah'.

A word of advice in return, if I may, in recognition of the fact that, with your recent entry to the board, you haven't had much of a chance to interact with fellow participants and gain a history. @Red Sky at Morning is, in my estimation, a gentleman par excellence. In a perfect world of my own making, were I able to convene a round table of advisers looking for viable solutions on all sides while at the same time holding true to their own convictions, which table would necessarily include Christian diplomats and abassadors, he would be among them.

We live in an unusual era: the Eschaton is Immanentized, and the abstract, apocalyptic is daily headline news. That is one reason why I post more here, in the Religion and Spirituality sub-forum, than anywhere else. I am glad to see you return to the board, by the way, because it is refreshing, sometimes, to cut through the abstractions to see, and acknowledge, the so called facts on the ground. As you quite rightly point out, that needs to be done.