Prophet Muhammad (saw) in the Bible

Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
3,887
Likes
6,179
#41
So yesterday I was just talking to some people and Iran was mentioned.

What exactly are your thoughts on Iran? I would like to hear your take. You would know a lot better than I would.
Iran is a beautiful place. I went there a while back. I was an atheist at the time and hadn't converted to Islam and was going there for some business with my father. The representative of the company we were interacting with was a Christian and he was a cool dude and pretty wealthy. We also visited a Jewish community in Iran (a lot of people don't know this but Iran has a pretty significant Jewish population and they are very wealthy there). Now If I was to believe all this American propaganda how am I supposed to reconcile my real world experiences with what they were saying, which I saw none of?

The people were awesome. They don't stop feeding you. One plate is done and they refill it again. And you can't say no because it looks disrespectful.

Definitely encourage people to go there themselves and see for themselves rather than here about it through some YT video or some anchor on FOX.
 





Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Messages
650
Likes
2,300
#42
I found this article interesting comment...


Is Criticizing Islam Islamophobia?
By

James Bishop

I don’t agree on much with anti-theist Richard Dawkins but perhaps in one area we can find some common ground, and that is that religion does not deserve a pedestal. In one interview Dawkins explains that

“We’ve all been brought up with the view that religion has some kind of special privileged status. You’re not allowed to criticize it. And therefore, if you offer even a fairly mild criticism, it really does sound strident, because it violates this expectation that religion is out of bounds” (1).

I agree, though it is no secret that Dawkins goes a few steps too far in his assault on religion to the extent of becoming bigoted and vitriolic. However, Dawkins and I agree that freedom to criticize false beliefs and bad ideas is necessary. To criticize does not mean to belittle or deliberately insult, rather it means to analyze claims, and separate the bad ideas from good ones.

Think of it likes this: over the years I have criticized beliefs and interpretations held by my fellow Christians that I don’t think are very good ones. I feel obligated to do so. But that doesn’t mean I set out to deliberately offend and insult them. To criticize is not an attempt to belittle.

In 2006 many within the Islamic world responded in anger to the 12 Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. The response was worldwide and diplomatic responses were had in the official United Nations discussions, and there would be numerous international boycotts, as well as the threatening of innocent embassy personnel. The threats and violence ventured into the realms of the extreme.

For instance, in Gaza several gunmen occupied a EU office, and subsequently demanded apologies from Denmark and Norway (a publication in Norway would also go on to print the cartoons). Protesters declared war on Denmark and burned Danish flags. Further, several Arab interior ministers meeting in Tunis asked that “the Danish authorities to take the necessary measures to punish those responsible for this harm and to take action to avoid a repeat” (2).

Libya and Saudi Arabia recalled their ambassadors from Copenhagen, while in Saudi Arabia two employees of the Danish company Arla Foods were beaten by demonstrators. Arla Foods would also face a boycott within the Islamic world. As a result of the cartoons some 139 people would be killed with an injury toll far exceeding that number (3).

The cartoonists also live under death threats, however, all of this shouldn’t come as a big surprise because the Islamic world is full of similar responses to religious sensitivities. Some 70 years ago Islamic radicals murdered an Iranian lawyer by Ahmad Kasravi in court where he was defending himself against charges that he had attacked Islam (4).

Just four years later radicals assassinated Iranian prime minister Haji-Ali Razmara after a group of Muslim clerics issued a fatwa calling for his death (5). Somewhat more recently, an Egyptian writer by the name Faraj Foda was murdered because radical Muslims were angered over his “apostasy” from Islam (6).

It has been pointed out that capital punishment for turning one’s back on Islam is consistent with Islamic scriptures (Koran 4:89, also see Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17, 9:89:271, 4:52:260), and is the basis for the extreme violence against apostates. In 1994 another Egyptian, this time the Nobel Prize-winning novelist Naguib Mahfouz, was stabbed in the neck after accusations of blasphemy (7).

He luckily survived but suffered permanent damage which affected his writing career. There was also the Ayatollah Khomeini’s death fatwa against the novelist Salman Rushdie (8). So, the reactions to the cartoonists was hardly a unique one. In fact, even American president Bill Clinton chimed in lambasting “these totally outrageous cartoons against Islam” (9).

He would then ask, “So now what are we going to do? … Replace the anti-Semitic prejudice with anti-Islamic prejudice?”

And this is where we find the problem. The cartoons were far from any manifestation of anti-Islamic prejudice. Criticizing Islam and/or the Prophet Muhammad is not and should not be compared to anti-Semitism, or any illegal activity whatsoever. After all, Islam is not a race. Being able to criticize Islam, or any religion or philosophy, is a product of freedom of speech.

No person or ideology is ever to be seen as off-limits to critical examination. What happens when we exempt an ideology and/or person from criticism? North Korea is what happens. That country has become one of the most repressive in the world. Human rights violations are widespread including extermination, murder, enslavement, torture, imprisonment, r*pe, forced abortion, and other sexual violence (10). That is what can happen if we do away with freedom of expression.

Freedom of expression entertains the freedom to offend and to disagree. To deny one the freedom to criticize religious and non-religious beliefs is to deny a fundamental human right. But it is a necessity for a successful society. It allows for moral and intellectual progress and development to take place within society.

If not for freedom of speech women would not be voting, gays would not be allowed to marry, and many labourers would continue to struggle in terrible working conditions. Imagine if our western scientists, historians, and philosophers were denied freedom of expression.

How would any progress be made in their fields or in our universities and places of higher learning? Thus, as soon as we do away with freedom of speech we can do away with basic human rights. It would be death for a free society.

Islam is no more exempt from criticism than is atheism or Christianity. It is not racist nor bigoted towards Christians to criticize Jesus or Christianity, and neither is racist or bigoted towards Muslims to criticize Muhammad or Islam. It is sad that no-one stood up for Denmark to defend freedom of expression. After all, we shouldn’t allow freedom of expression and inquiry to be cowed into silence by intimidation.
Even though I agreed with much of this article, and see a big difference between legitimate criticism and insult, I was still amused when reading. It sounded, to me, like somebody, some Christian or post-Christian father figure, appropriately surnamed "Bishop," who sat passively by, for three centuries, while Freemasons, Deists and Rationalists replaced his religion in the public sphere with pagan (Greco-Roman), secular republics and democracies and turned Christianity into a voting bloc, little more effective than a book reading and debating club (thanks, past member, LoyaltotheCrown), bemoaning the fact that Islam isn't Christianity, or post-Christianity.

There dad sits, drumming his fingers on his desk, trying to figure out just what we can collectively do, as a family, now that we have adopted that "wild ass" of a man, Ishmael, through the untidy process of systematically colonizing his territories, stealing his oil, causing a refugee crisis, and, not least, murdering his children in cold blood on Passover.

Let's get real, dad: Ishmael will not easily be emasculated. He can be notoriously reasonable, however. In fact, he taught us Chemistry (when it was still alchemy) and Algebra and reintroduced us to our own Greek philosophers. When we were praying to relics and saints for healing in the Middle Ages, he was training doctors and building hospitals from Andalusia to Fez and Isfahan. I like that, and many other things, about him. I'm glad we adopted him. He's a great football player and is teaching me Arabic.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
2,145
Likes
2,606
#43
I watched the video and found no reasonable correlations in what was shown in Isaiah. Being a "light to the nations" is corroborated throughout the old and new testaments, when speaking of Jesus.

Be of good cheer-- I have overcome the world.

JOHN 16:33
 





Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
1,736
Likes
724
#44
Iran is a beautiful place. I went there a while back. I was an atheist at the time and hadn't converted to Islam and was going there for some business with my father. The representative of the company we were interacting with was a Christian and he was a cool dude and pretty wealthy. We also visited a Jewish community in Iran (a lot of people don't know this but Iran has a pretty significant Jewish population and they are very wealthy there). Now If I was to believe all this American propaganda how am I supposed to reconcile my real world experiences with what they were saying, which I saw none of?

The people were awesome. They don't stop feeding you. One plate is done and they refill it again. And you can't say no because it looks disrespectful.

Definitely encourage people to go there themselves and see for themselves rather than here about it through some YT video or some anchor on FOX.
No thanks I’m not going into a region that has been fucked up beyond belief
 





Last edited:
Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Messages
650
Likes
2,300
#45
No thanks I’m not going into a region that has been fucked up beyond belief
Whether you, I, or any other American decide to go to Iran ourselves, our tax dollars have preceded us and have worked their political wonders and miracles ...


"CIA admits role in 1953 Iranian coup
Declassified documents describe in detail how US – with British help – engineered coup against Mohammad Mosaddeq


Saeed Kamali Dehghan and Richard Norton-Taylor
Mon 19 Aug 2013 14.26 EDTFirst published on Mon 19 Aug 2013 14.26 EDT





The CIA has publicly admitted for the first time that it was behind the notorious 1953 coup against Iran's democratically elected prime minister Mohammad Mosaddeq, in documents that also show how the British government tried to block the release of information about its own involvement in his overthrow ..."
Source
 





Last edited:
Joined
Mar 7, 2018
Messages
130
Likes
425
#46
Iran is a beautiful place. I went there a while back. I was an atheist at the time and hadn't converted to Islam and was going there for some business with my father. The representative of the company we were interacting with was a Christian and he was a cool dude and pretty wealthy. We also visited a Jewish community in Iran (a lot of people don't know this but Iran has a pretty significant Jewish population and they are very wealthy there). Now If I was to believe all this American propaganda how am I supposed to reconcile my real world experiences with what they were saying, which I saw none of?

The people were awesome. They don't stop feeding you. One plate is done and they refill it again. And you can't say no because it looks disrespectful.

Definitely encourage people to go there themselves and see for themselves rather than here about it through some YT video or some anchor on FOX.
As an Iranian, I'm so thrilled that you liked my country and I just wanted to thank you for sharing clear and positive ideas on Iran, because you don't seem to be brainwashed by the media. I'm not saying Iran is perfect or even close to that, but it definitely does not look like what Western media are trying to show. Iran's government also has big weird issues but even that part of our country is not as horrid as what you hear on Western Media. Besides, your comment about how Iranians try to feed you endlessly just hit home and made me laugh.

And about the video, I watched it but the reasoning didn't come close to convince me, and I was born and lived in a Muslim family. I think it could be insightful for Muslims who want to spread their knowledge about their faith but I don't think it is of any help for Christians. I'm still struggling with my faith and have doubts about what to believe, cause I don't want to choose a path blindly. Since I'm born in an Islamic family and culture I thought it's fair to give it a try and started to research, but I'm having issues with some many verses of Quran. The way it condemns non-believers so harshly actually bothers me very much, though that's not what prevents me from calling myself a Muslim. But I think that's another story for another time.
 





Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
2,828
Likes
5,238
#47
Iran? I feel like it's probably safer than most of America. You can at least guarantee certain things wont happen to you. Because those things only happen in America. For example, you definitely won't get shot by a cop for holding a toothbrush, or startling them in even the most minuscule way.

Iranians probably wont dumpster dive through your personal life either. That is totally an American thing.
 





Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
1,736
Likes
724
#48
Whether you, I, or any other American decide to go to Iran ourselves, our tax dollars have preceded us and have worked their political wonders and miracles ...

"CIA admits role in 1953 Iranian coup
Declassified documents describe in detail how US – with British help – engineered coup against Mohammad Mosaddeq


Saeed Kamali Dehghan and Richard Norton-Taylor
Mon 19 Aug 2013 14.26 EDTFirst published on Mon 19 Aug 2013 14.26 EDT





The CIA has publicly admitted for the first time that it was behind the notorious 1953 coup against Iran's democratically elected prime minister Mohammad Mosaddeq, in documents that also show how the British government tried to block the release of information about its own involvement in his overthrow ..."
Source
I didn’t say our government was good
 





Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
3,887
Likes
6,179
#49
As an Iranian, I'm so thrilled that you liked my country and I just wanted to thank you for sharing clear and positive ideas on Iran, because you don't seem to be brainwashed by the media. I'm not saying Iran is perfect or even close to that, but it definitely does not look like what Western media are trying to show. Iran's government also has big weird issues but even that part of our country is not as horrid as what you hear on Western Media. Besides, your comment about how Iranians try to feed you endlessly just hit home and made me laugh.

And about the video, I watched it but the reasoning didn't come close to convince me, and I was born and lived in a Muslim family. I think it could be insightful for Muslims who want to spread their knowledge about their faith but I don't think it is of any help for Christians. I'm still struggling with my faith and have doubts about what to believe, cause I don't want to choose a path blindly. Since I'm born in an Islamic family and culture I thought it's fair to give it a try and started to research, but I'm having issues with some many verses of Quran. The way it condemns non-believers so harshly actually bothers me very much, though that's not what prevents me from calling myself a Muslim. But I think that's another story for another time.
I loved it there. People were very polite and it didn't matter if they were Christian, Zoroastrian, Muslim, Jewish, or Kurd. I interacted with all of them and the ones I interacted with were amazing. The hospitality they showed my father and I was out of this world. I'm sure I gained a few pounds while there but I didn't mind at all.

Which verses are you specifically talking about? I ask because usually when God is condemning the non-believers it's usually within a specific situation where they do something very violent and or act in a deceitful manner.
 





Joined
Mar 7, 2018
Messages
130
Likes
425
#51
I loved it there. People were very polite and it didn't matter if they were Christian, Zoroastrian, Muslim, Jewish, or Kurd. I interacted with all of them and the ones I interacted with were amazing. The hospitality they showed my father and I was out of this world. I'm sure I gained a few pounds while there but I didn't mind at all.

Which verses are you specifically talking about? I ask because usually when God is condemning the non-believers it's usually within a specific situation where they do something very violent and or act in a deceitful manner.
Well, I'm really happy and honored that you liked it in here.
What I meant is that in general, the harshness of Quran language is bothering me, But that is not the reason I'm struggling to accept Islam. I just think it could at first be difficult trying to read the Quran and meet that harsh tone. But I'm over that part which you would just ignore the content because it bothers you. I'd like to mention some of the verses I can't find peace with, but I have to look up and find the English interpretations to quote in here because I only have Quran in Arabic and Persian translations at hand now, and it would take time for me to do that. But I'll do it sometime, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it as you seem to be a Muslim.
 





Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
3,887
Likes
6,179
#52
Well, I'm really happy and honored that you liked it in here.
What I meant is that in general, the harshness of Quran language is bothering me, But that is not the reason I'm struggling to accept Islam. I just think it could at first be difficult trying to read the Quran and meet that harsh tone. But I'm over that part which you would just ignore the content because it bothers you. I'd like to mention some of the verses I can't find peace with, but I have to look up and find the English interpretations to quote in here because I only have Quran in Arabic and Persian translations at hand now, and it would take time for me to do that. But I'll do it sometime, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it as you seem to be a Muslim.
No worries let me know whenever you're ready. Just a little tidbit on the side, the Quran speaks on forgiveness, kindness, and etc. just as much as it does about punishment if not more.
 





Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
3,765
Likes
6,704
#53
Well, I'm really happy and honored that you liked it in here.
What I meant is that in general, the harshness of Quran language is bothering me, But that is not the reason I'm struggling to accept Islam. I just think it could at first be difficult trying to read the Quran and meet that harsh tone. But I'm over that part which you would just ignore the content because it bothers you. I'd like to mention some of the verses I can't find peace with, but I have to look up and find the English interpretations to quote in here because I only have Quran in Arabic and Persian translations at hand now, and it would take time for me to do that. But I'll do it sometime, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it as you seem to be a Muslim.
One has to understand the context of the Quran's verses.

 





Joined
Mar 7, 2018
Messages
130
Likes
425
#54
First of all, thank you for trying to enlighten me. But I explained before that although harshness in Quran bothers me sometimes, It's not what's kept me from submitting to Islam (Indeed it is a type of submission to God). I'm still researching and I don't think I have the right to criticize this faith, but in my path, I've stumbled upon some ideas in Islam that I have not found any logical explanation for. One of them is how women' rights seem to worth less than men in Quran and Islamic laws.(I'm not defending feminism or modern days rules). I understand that Quran's rules with regards to women could have been very modern and more than fair at the time Prophet's life, but there are verses in Quran that as much as I want to believe they are not against women, I can't help it. I know I probably should not compare nowadays with rules of those times, but why should women have less share of Inheritance (4:11), or why there must be two female witnesses equaling the testimony of a man (2:282)? why is the act of polygamy allowed for men (Even if it 's under special conditions)? (I certainly don't think it should be allowed for men and women). I have to admit since I started reading Quran for understanding, I have come upon many amazing and beautiful concepts, but in my head, I think if there is a path of light that we are to follow, shouldn't it be clear and immune to any kind of abuse or exploitation? I think this strange rules could possibly build a foundation for abuse. I know there are dozens of explanations, but honestly, none of the ones I've read has convinced me yet. The only possible explanation I understand would be that these rules are for testing faithful women and men, to see how hard they will try to establish justice among themselves. Or that once you have accepted Quran and Islam (because it is really appealing and attractive on so many levels), you have to obey all the rules without hesitance.
P.S: these are just my thoughts and I don't mean to be offensive to Muslims, so don't get angry please! :)
 





friend

Established
Joined
Jul 26, 2017
Messages
293
Likes
501
#55
why should women have less share of Inheritance (4:11), or why there must be two female witnesses equaling the testimony of a man (2:282)? why is the act of polygamy allowed for men (Even if it 's under special conditions)? (I certainly don't think it should be allowed for men and women).

My simple short answer :
1 - Inheritance issue,
because men have to provide sustenance (food, shelter, cloth, and all other expenses [and its obligatory] ) for the family at all time (there are exceptions of-course like husband is ill or dead or unable to work).
and its obligatory for the husband he has no right to say no.

Wife, on the other hand, takes less in inheritance but its all hers. she has no duty toward the family at all - No Nothing At All. Period. no one has the right to force her to spend that which belong to her except by her permission.


2 - Witnesses, other forum members would help.

3 - Polygamy, women are always more than men due to large number of male deaths during wars, accidents etc... so if every man gets one woman in that exceptional case then what are the other women going to do and you know they too have desires so they will have secret immoral illegal sexual relationships (with who? yes you are right, with the married men).
women cannot have more than one because men are aggressive over their female partners and putting it short they will kill (when got the chance) any other man having relationship with his partner. forget about 3 other men - there will be WAR.

there are detailed answers to those questions which will further enlighten you.
 





Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
3,765
Likes
6,704
#56
First of all, thank you for trying to enlighten me. But I explained before that although harshness in Quran bothers me sometimes, It's not what's kept me from submitting to Islam (Indeed it is a type of submission to God). I'm still researching and I don't think I have the right to criticize this faith, but in my path, I've stumbled upon some ideas in Islam that I have not found any logical explanation for. One of them is how women' rights seem to worth less than men in Quran and Islamic laws.(I'm not defending feminism or modern days rules). I understand that Quran's rules with regards to women could have been very modern and more than fair at the time Prophet's life, but there are verses in Quran that as much as I want to believe they are not against women, I can't help it. I know I probably should not compare nowadays with rules of those times, but why should women have less share of Inheritance (4:11), or why there must be two female witnesses equaling the testimony of a man (2:282)? why is the act of polygamy allowed for men (Even if it 's under special conditions)? (I certainly don't think it should be allowed for men and women). I have to admit since I started reading Quran for understanding, I have come upon many amazing and beautiful concepts, but in my head, I think if there is a path of light that we are to follow, shouldn't it be clear and immune to any kind of abuse or exploitation? I think this strange rules could possibly build a foundation for abuse. I know there are dozens of explanations, but honestly, none of the ones I've read has convinced me yet. The only possible explanation I understand would be that these rules are for testing faithful women and men, to see how hard they will try to establish justice among themselves. Or that once you have accepted Quran and Islam (because it is really appealing and attractive on so many levels), you have to obey all the rules without hesitance.
P.S: these are just my thoughts and I don't mean to be offensive to Muslims, so don't get angry please! :)
"could have been more modern"
People: "Wow modern society is messed up, let me turn to religion"
Those Same People: "hmm... needs to be more modern"
 





Last edited:
Joined
Mar 7, 2018
Messages
130
Likes
425
#57
"could have been more modern"
People: "Wow modern society is messed up, let me turn to religion"
Those Same People: "hmm... needs to be more modern"
Well, by "modern" I meant that Quran rules were way better than what women of that time could ever imagine when Prophet lived. Not that I want Islam to be more modern. I just don't happen to know the English language well.

"We should be adapting ourselves to what God wants... instead people want to adapt their religion to how they want things."

That's not what I want (to adapt religion), I just want to understand as much as I can.

"If you want a religion where you can do whatever and that you can change to accomodate your tastes, there's already a religion where you can do that. It's called Christianity. You can live in the West, be a Christian, you can be as modern as you want to be. Why not be a Christian? If people want Islam to fit their preconceived notions and conform to their beliefs and standards- why not just be Christian? You can snort cocaine with prostitutes while drinking what is known as Hennesy, engage in whatever you want- go to church the next morning and be back at it after church. Remember- salvation is through faith, not works. So you can do whatever you want, snort cocaine, steal land from Palestinians, do whatever and (supposedly) still be saved because you believe in Jesus (may peace be upon him)"
If you want religion to conform to what you want- Christianity might be the way."

The thing is I've tried reading the Bible and the similarity amongst the Old Testament, New Testament, and Quran has led me to believe there's some reality in there. I just don't know how people fight over religions because to me The Core of all these religions seems to be one single thing. But honestly, among these Abrahamic religions, Islam makes the most sense to me, though there are lots of things I don't understand yet. I just have a hard time believing that the only thing God wants us to do is to obey him and not try to find out why.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
3,765
Likes
6,704
#58
The thing is I've tried reading the Bible and the similarity amongst the Old Testament, New Testament, and Quran has led me to believe there's some reality in there. I just don't know how people fight over religions because to me The Core of all these religions seems to be one single thing.
well this is the West


if you want to move in that direction- that's a preview of the package you'll be getting
 





Joined
Mar 7, 2018
Messages
130
Likes
425
#59
well this is the West


if you want to move in that direction- that's a preview of the package you'll be getting
I never mentioned anything about Western Lifestyle. Where I live, the culture and life are so different from western life and I have no interest in West. I just have questions and thought the Muslims here could help me a little.
 





Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
3,765
Likes
6,704
#60
I never mentioned anything about Western Lifestyle. Where I live, the culture and life are so different from western life and I have no interest in West. I just have questions and thought the Muslims here could help me a little.
But what is the religion underpinning the West?

That woman in that video more than likely comes from a Christian background. That is where Christian culture has gone. Islam is much, much superior to Christianity.