Prophet Muhammad (saw) in the Bible

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#21
Here we go again. You're a 17 year old who masturbates to porn frequently (your words not mine) so I don't expect you to really know anything but please tell us where in the Quran it tells Muslims to kill non-believers for no reason at all?

Stop listening to your mom and dad who watch CNN and FOX 24/7 and go and read the Quran.
1. I said I was kidding about the porn thing.
2. The Quran is messy and boring as hell
3. Jokes on you, I don’t even watch those.
4. Would you kindly stop insulting? It sounds very pathetic :)

Also when I show a quote from the Quran that states to kill all non-believers, that is taken out of context. But then you want to use a bible quote and say that’s “where it advocates for violence” but that’s not taken out of context?
 





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#22
I have a question regarding the Bible and want your take on it. Why did the Romans decide that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John should make up the "Word of God" when there were countless other books (Christian Apocrypha) that were just as legitimate (and by legitimate I mean from the same time era)?
I have my theories on it but I would love to know your perspective on this.

Even though I like to scrounge through the dust bins of history, I have never gotten much clarity on how, through what process, the four gospels were decided upon and included in the canon. For instance, was the (Aramaic) Gospel of the Hebrews, held as definitive by the Ebionites at Jerusalem, consciously excluded, locked and hidden away in the Vatican's guarded basement, or is it simply lost, like many another book, to posterity? I don't know. Still, I do know that Jerome (350-420 CE) reportedly had a copy of the Aramaic Matthew, a possible precursor to our Greek Matthew, and used it when he translated the Vulgate, but whatever became of the book, and whether he had it in its entirety is, I think, anybody's guess.


It's been awhile since I read it, but Elaine Pagels, capable author of The Gnostic Gospels, has interesting, worthwhile theories, from a democratic, feminist and unorthodox perspective, on some of the politics which may have been active at the time to influence the establishment of the New Testament and the predominantly male, hierarchical church, but, apart from that, I really have no idea. With that said, we might be going too far afield from the op, and, if so, I apologize for that.
 





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#23
1. I said I was kidding about the porn thing.
2. The Quran is messy and boring as hell
3. Jokes on you, I don’t even watch those.
4. Would you kindly stop insulting? It sounds very pathetic :)

Also when I show a quote from the Quran that states to kill all non-believers, that is taken out of context. But then you want to use a bible quote and say that’s “where it advocates for violence” but that’s not taken out of context?
I take it you haven't read the Quran seeing as you're of the opinion that it's messy and boring. With that being said how do you know then that Muslims are to kill disbelievers for no apparent reason?

Post me the verse where it says that Muslims should kill disbelievers for no reason other than the fact that they're disbelievers and make sure you post the verses before and after?

Show me where I used any Bible quote without referencing it in context?
 





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#24
Even though I like to scrounge through the dust bins of history, I have never gotten much clarity on how, through what process, the four gospels were decided upon and included in the canon. For instance, was the (Aramaic) Gospel of the Hebrews, held as definitive by the Ebionites at Jerusalem, consciously excluded, locked and hidden away in the Vatican's guarded basement, or is it simply lost, like many another book, to posterity? I don't know. Still, I do know that Jerome (350-420 CE) reportedly had a copy of the Aramaic Matthew, a possible precursor to our Greek Matthew, and used it when he translated the Vulgate, but whatever became of the book, and whether he had it in its entirety is, I think, anybody's guess.

It's been awhile since I read it, but Elaine Pagels, capable author of The Gnostic Gospels, has interesting, worthwhile theories, from a democratic, feminist and unorthodox perspective, on some of the politics which may have been active at the time to influence the establishment of the New Testament and the predominantly male, hierarchical church, but, apart from that, I really have no idea. With that said, we might be going too far afield from the op, and, if so, I apologize for that.
Thanks for you response. Always a pleasure reading what you have to say.
 





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#25
I take it you haven't read the Quran seeing as you're of the opinion that it's messy and boring. With that being said how do you know then that Muslims are to kill disbelievers for no apparent reason?

Post me the verse where it says that Muslims should kill disbelievers for no reason other than the fact that they're disbelievers and make sure you post the verses before and after?

Show me where I used any Bible quote without referencing it in context?
I’ve tried reading it, but it’s so damn uninteresting. The Bible was far more interesting to me
 





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#26
I’ve tried reading it, but it’s so damn uninteresting. The Bible was far more interesting to me
Then please stop making claims that you can't support. To make such a claim you would have to actually read the Quran.

To be honest I don't think you even understand the Bible.
 





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#28
Here we go again. You're a 17 year old who masturbates to porn frequently (your words not mine) so I don't expect you to really know anything but please tell us where in the Quran it tells Muslims to kill non-believers for no reason at all?

Stop listening to your mom and dad who watch CNN and FOX 24/7 and go and read the Quran.
@enderpotato00 welcome to the world of trying to discuss Islam to the Muslims. This is now the second time that I have noticed KF say the same thing. Tread carefully, and expect more of the same if you are going to continue trying to discuss Islam.
 





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#29
@enderpotato00 welcome to the world of trying to discuss Islam to the Muslims. This is now the second time that I have noticed KF say the same thing. Tread carefully, and expect more of the same if you are going to continue trying to discuss Islam.
He made a claim and he didn't back up the claim?

I know you don't support the claims you make, and it's probably because it's absolutely ridiculous, but please let others try to support their claim.
 





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#30
I do ya idiot. I read it
Insulting me now?

You make a claim and when I ask you to support it you insult me instead. Perhaps you're too busy with your pornography?

Maybe you can hit me up later and provide evidence for the claims rather than insult me.
 





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#31
He made a claim and he didn't back up the claim?

I know you don't support the claims you make, and it's probably because it's absolutely ridiculous, but please let others try to support their claim.
No, what he did was make a claim, and you countered by pointing out his age, which would have been fine if you left it alone, but KF doesn't leave anyone alone when they try to talk about Islam. So you decided to point out how there is a connection between his age, masturbating, and porn that invalidates what he has to say in a discussion on religion.

This is the second time that you have taken a discussion found elsewhere on the forum on porn out of context when Ender has participated in a discussion on religion, which he has the right to do without being harassed by someone taking something he said out of context from another thread.

This thread should also be referenced if you are going to basically quote it because you slandering him considering how he responded to the same thing in that thread denying this sort of behavior that you are using to your advantage, but this is typical for you. This is to be expected.

Then, you defend this inaccurate slander by saying that this is justified in eliciting his support of his argument, as though you were the innocent party the way any abusive person would do. Unfortunately for you, some people see the desperation in your defense when you do this. What you are saying to Ender here could be considered sexual harassment. This is not the first time you have done this and it probably won't be the last considering your track record, so I'm going to say something because it is offensive to me. I found something you said incredibly offensive and crossing a line again and needed to say something about it again.
 





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#32
Insulting me now?

You make a claim and when I ask you to support it you insult me instead. Perhaps you're too busy with your pornography?

Maybe you can hit me up later and provide evidence for the claims rather than insult me.
Do you understand what I meant by I don’t actually porn and it was a Joke I made? Actually listen please.
 





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#33
Insulting me now?

You make a claim and when I ask you to support it you insult me instead. Perhaps you're too busy with your pornography?

Maybe you can hit me up later and provide evidence for the claims rather than insult me.
I do support my claims I just don’t feel like explaining them only for you to deny them. It’s pointless is what I’m saying
 





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#34
If they were jailed and or persecuted it was because of something they did (and nothing to do with their faith) or they're lying. If you don't break the law no one bothers you there. I was an atheist at the time I went there and nothing happened to me except for people being friendly and showing me great hospitality. Perhaps you should visit and find out for yourself.

In Iran there are a lot of undercover agents trying to bring down the government and considering how hated they are by America, Israel, and her other allies I wouldn't be surprised if they are the ones funding these lies. Kind of how they did to Venezuela under Chavez.

I'm not fan of the Iranian government or their brand of Islam (you should know the majority of the Muslims don't believe in Shiaism) but the amount of lies and propaganda against them from so-called persecuted women and men who live outside of Iran and Western media is absolutely absurd.
I am not trying to make an argument that because Christians in Iran are persecuted, they are right, but evidence is compelling that Christians are persecuted there. The two girls in the video were mistreated by the authorities, not so much the people in general. This bears up the assessment by Open Doors USA.

"Whereas most persecution of Christians in the Arab Gulf region comes from society or radical Islamic groups, the main threat for believers in Iran comes from the government. The Iranian regime declares the country to be a Shia Islamic State and is constantly expanding its influence. Hardliners within the regime are vehemently opposed to Christianity, and create severe problems for Christians, particularly converts from Islam. Christians and other minorities are seen as threats to this end, and are persecuted as a result. Iranian society as a whole is more tolerant than their leadership, thanks in part due to the influence of moderate and mystical Sufi Islam."

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/world-watch-list/iran/
 





Etagloc

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#35
So this thread has gotten some replies now. I hope you folks reading are watching the video! It's good stuff!
 





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#36
Muslims: The Bible confirms Islam

Also Muslims: The Bible is corrupt
I found this article interesting comment...


Is Criticizing Islam Islamophobia?
By

James Bishop

I don’t agree on much with anti-theist Richard Dawkins but perhaps in one area we can find some common ground, and that is that religion does not deserve a pedestal. In one interview Dawkins explains that

“We’ve all been brought up with the view that religion has some kind of special privileged status. You’re not allowed to criticize it. And therefore, if you offer even a fairly mild criticism, it really does sound strident, because it violates this expectation that religion is out of bounds” (1).

I agree, though it is no secret that Dawkins goes a few steps too far in his assault on religion to the extent of becoming bigoted and vitriolic. However, Dawkins and I agree that freedom to criticize false beliefs and bad ideas is necessary. To criticize does not mean to belittle or deliberately insult, rather it means to analyze claims, and separate the bad ideas from good ones.

Think of it likes this: over the years I have criticized beliefs and interpretations held by my fellow Christians that I don’t think are very good ones. I feel obligated to do so. But that doesn’t mean I set out to deliberately offend and insult them. To criticize is not an attempt to belittle.

In 2006 many within the Islamic world responded in anger to the 12 Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. The response was worldwide and diplomatic responses were had in the official United Nations discussions, and there would be numerous international boycotts, as well as the threatening of innocent embassy personnel. The threats and violence ventured into the realms of the extreme.

For instance, in Gaza several gunmen occupied a EU office, and subsequently demanded apologies from Denmark and Norway (a publication in Norway would also go on to print the cartoons). Protesters declared war on Denmark and burned Danish flags. Further, several Arab interior ministers meeting in Tunis asked that “the Danish authorities to take the necessary measures to punish those responsible for this harm and to take action to avoid a repeat” (2).

Libya and Saudi Arabia recalled their ambassadors from Copenhagen, while in Saudi Arabia two employees of the Danish company Arla Foods were beaten by demonstrators. Arla Foods would also face a boycott within the Islamic world. As a result of the cartoons some 139 people would be killed with an injury toll far exceeding that number (3).

The cartoonists also live under death threats, however, all of this shouldn’t come as a big surprise because the Islamic world is full of similar responses to religious sensitivities. Some 70 years ago Islamic radicals murdered an Iranian lawyer by Ahmad Kasravi in court where he was defending himself against charges that he had attacked Islam (4).

Just four years later radicals assassinated Iranian prime minister Haji-Ali Razmara after a group of Muslim clerics issued a fatwa calling for his death (5). Somewhat more recently, an Egyptian writer by the name Faraj Foda was murdered because radical Muslims were angered over his “apostasy” from Islam (6).

It has been pointed out that capital punishment for turning one’s back on Islam is consistent with Islamic scriptures (Koran 4:89, also see Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17, 9:89:271, 4:52:260), and is the basis for the extreme violence against apostates. In 1994 another Egyptian, this time the Nobel Prize-winning novelist Naguib Mahfouz, was stabbed in the neck after accusations of blasphemy (7).

He luckily survived but suffered permanent damage which affected his writing career. There was also the Ayatollah Khomeini’s death fatwa against the novelist Salman Rushdie (8). So, the reactions to the cartoonists was hardly a unique one. In fact, even American president Bill Clinton chimed in lambasting “these totally outrageous cartoons against Islam” (9).

He would then ask, “So now what are we going to do? … Replace the anti-Semitic prejudice with anti-Islamic prejudice?”

And this is where we find the problem. The cartoons were far from any manifestation of anti-Islamic prejudice. Criticizing Islam and/or the Prophet Muhammad is not and should not be compared to anti-Semitism, or any illegal activity whatsoever. After all, Islam is not a race. Being able to criticize Islam, or any religion or philosophy, is a product of freedom of speech.

No person or ideology is ever to be seen as off-limits to critical examination. What happens when we exempt an ideology and/or person from criticism? North Korea is what happens. That country has become one of the most repressive in the world. Human rights violations are widespread including extermination, murder, enslavement, torture, imprisonment, r*pe, forced abortion, and other sexual violence (10). That is what can happen if we do away with freedom of expression.

Freedom of expression entertains the freedom to offend and to disagree. To deny one the freedom to criticize religious and non-religious beliefs is to deny a fundamental human right. But it is a necessity for a successful society. It allows for moral and intellectual progress and development to take place within society.

If not for freedom of speech women would not be voting, gays would not be allowed to marry, and many labourers would continue to struggle in terrible working conditions. Imagine if our western scientists, historians, and philosophers were denied freedom of expression.

How would any progress be made in their fields or in our universities and places of higher learning? Thus, as soon as we do away with freedom of speech we can do away with basic human rights. It would be death for a free society.

Islam is no more exempt from criticism than is atheism or Christianity. It is not racist nor bigoted towards Christians to criticize Jesus or Christianity, and neither is racist or bigoted towards Muslims to criticize Muhammad or Islam. It is sad that no-one stood up for Denmark to defend freedom of expression. After all, we shouldn’t allow freedom of expression and inquiry to be cowed into silence by intimidation.
 





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#37
No, what he did was make a claim, and you countered by pointing out his age, which would have been fine if you left it alone, but KF doesn't leave anyone alone when they try to talk about Islam. So you decided to point out how there is a connection between his age, masturbating, and porn that invalidates what he has to say in a discussion on religion.

This is the second time that you have taken a discussion found elsewhere on the forum on porn out of context when Ender has participated in a discussion on religion, which he has the right to do without being harassed by someone taking something he said out of context from another thread.

This thread should also be referenced if you are going to basically quote it because you slandering him considering how he responded to the same thing in that thread denying this sort of behavior that you are using to your advantage, but this is typical for you. This is to be expected.

Then, you defend this inaccurate slander by saying that this is justified in eliciting his support of his argument, as though you were the innocent party the way any abusive person would do. Unfortunately for you, some people see the desperation in your defense when you do this. What you are saying to Ender here could be considered sexual harassment. This is not the first time you have done this and it probably won't be the last considering your track record, so I'm going to say something because it is offensive to me. I found something you said incredibly offensive and crossing a line again and needed to say something about it again.
You wrote whole paragraphs when you could have summed it up in one or two sentences and you still had it wrong. Since I know you like making ludicrous claims that are out right lies (like the time you said the majority of America wasn't white) and have a reading comprehension, I'll post my reply to him here for you so you can read the WHOLE thing sweetheart.

"Here we go again. You're a 17 year old who masturbates to porn frequently (your words not mine) so I don't expect you to really know anything but please tell us where in the Quran it tells Muslims to kill non-believers for no reason at all?

Stop listening to your mom and dad who watch CNN and FOX 24/7 and go and read the Quran."

I even asked him again until you butted in when you should be minding your own business.

"I take it you haven't read the Quran seeing as you're of the opinion that it's messy and boring. With that being said how do you know then that Muslims are to kill disbelievers for no apparent reason?

Post me the verse where it says that Muslims should kill disbelievers for no reason other than the fact that they're disbelievers and make sure you post the verses before and after?

Show me where I used any Bible quote without referencing it in context?"
 





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#38
I am not trying to make an argument that because Christians in Iran are persecuted, they are right, but evidence is compelling that Christians are persecuted there. The two girls in the video were mistreated by the authorities, not so much the people in general. This bears up the assessment by Open Doors USA.

"Whereas most persecution of Christians in the Arab Gulf region comes from society or radical Islamic groups, the main threat for believers in Iran comes from the government. The Iranian regime declares the country to be a Shia Islamic State and is constantly expanding its influence. Hardliners within the regime are vehemently opposed to Christianity, and create severe problems for Christians, particularly converts from Islam. Christians and other minorities are seen as threats to this end, and are persecuted as a result. Iranian society as a whole is more tolerant than their leadership, thanks in part due to the influence of moderate and mystical Sufi Islam."

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/world-watch-list/iran/
I guess you didn't understand the part of my post where it said the amount of Western propaganda directed at Iran is absurd and then you come and post me something from a Western source, which we all know have problems with Iran.

Let me make this clear for you. I don't believe one word that comes out of the mouth of America or any other Western country when it comes to what they believe is happening in Iran.

Provide me academic articles by people that have been to Iran and have studied there and then you might have a case.
 





Etagloc

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#40
Let me make this clear for you. I don't believe one word that comes out of the mouth of America or any other Western country when it comes to what they believe is happening in Iran.
So yesterday I was just talking to some people and Iran was mentioned.

What exactly are your thoughts on Iran? I would like to hear your take. You would know a lot better than I would.