Proof of god is a moral question. Do you see the morals shown for god as good or evil?

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But how could you win anyone if you don't tell in a way or another that they do wrong which is the main reason why we're all sinners?
If Christianity had no decent moral arguments in the distant past to convert with and that is why they used inquisitions to grow.

You still do not have decent morals to convert with as being homophobic and misogynous are demonstrably evil moral tenets.

You and Lisa know this and that is why you never give any decent apologetics to make your case.

Regards
DL
 

Wigi

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Adults can wash themselves
As I said earlier, nobody need to fear judgment when you have clean hands.

If god did not want man to sin, he would not have put Satan or the talking serpent in Eden
Satan wasn't a requirement for men to commit sin.
Disobedience was sufficient in itself.

I am not surprised that you have not read your bible.
No, the thing is you make things up.

Meanwhile, you support a religion that demands misogyny.
What religion ?

"Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world."
James 1:27

You're the sole person here who considers Lisa as a second class citizen.

To expect Christians to do as Christ asks of them is a futile task
At least Christ won't throw rocks at people to prove a point. I can't say the same for you.

you literalist Christians are perpetual liars just as your lying clergy is
Now you project, you lie all the time and you're unable to explain how God considers evil as good.
Also, what is evil? Apparently evil is just a word you throw at people you don't like. It's childish at best.
 
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presentation is everything.
I wish it were.

This link speaks in part to the resilience of Christian to intelligent thought.


I see this here where Lisa, as just one example, would rather see a hierarchy of souls with her and other women and gays at the bottom, --- under men.

She is putting her religious beliefs ahead of her moral sense.

She is calling evil good and that is really evil.

Regards
DL
 

Wigi

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Christianity had no decent moral arguments in the distant past to convert with and that is why they used inquisitions to grow
The growth of christianity has nothing to do with inquisition.
There are more christians today than ever and as far as I know, we're not forced by anyone to accept the gospel.

You still do not have decent morals
Are you okay to say that morality come from the word moralis which means behaving good?
If yes, are you okay to say that you don't behave good according to the gospel
homophobic and misogynous
According to what? is this your superiority complex that grants you the right to decide whether someone is homophobic or not or you received a seal of approval from fox news?
 

Todd

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The idea of speaking the truth being the loving thing to do is a good one when the practitioner knows the truth.

The problem with Christians and Muslims is that they are trying to teach lies and get upset when those lies are pointed out to them.

I quoted your whole post but this, "yet I don't know what the biblical basis is for it." --- was what triggered me to show you the following that basically says that even speaking a truth that will hurt the recipient is an act of love. It is just tough love and is often misunderstood for hate.

There is not a lot of wisdom in scriptures but this sneaked past the scribes.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Note how you and I are trying to correct Lisa but she sees what we do as hate and not the love.

Regards
DL
I understand the idea of speaking truth in love. I just don't understand Christian's who use it as to defend harshness, hatefullness and hurtful attitudes. One can speak truth with a loving tone, gestures and genuine concern. Hate and contempt are not traits of love.
 
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Though Moses was the only one to hear God directly as Jesus did,
As we all can if we do the work. Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

Remember that the Vatican creation painting has god sitting in our right brain hemisphere.

You sometimes sound like you believe in the supernatural. I hope you have not fallen into that kind of literalist belief.

Regards
DL
 

Todd

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As we all can if we do the work. Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

Remember that the Vatican creation painting has god sitting in our right brain hemisphere.

You sometimes sound like you believe in the supernatural. I hope you have not fallen into that kind of literalist belief.

Regards
DL
I agree we all have the ability to hear God through our inner voice. However the Bible clearly seperates Jesus and Moses as the only ones who spoke directly the actual words of God and heard God's voice audibly. All the other prophets in the Bible heard God through dreams, visions and/or the same inner voice that we have access to.

In repsone to you last two sentences, I do believe in the supernatural and no I would not be considered a biblical literalist by most people's definition. Some portions of the Bible are meant to be taken literal but many are not. I think common sense, understanding the character of God correctly and of course the Spirit of God, will lead the sincere person who is not held down by religious indoctrination to correctly discern the difference.
 
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It’s wrong to say this group or that group should be immune to hearing about their sins because of x, when its the truth that they need to hear.
Are we not all sinners?

If so, why do the sins of women earn them second class citizen status while it does not for men?

Why are you applying an immoral double standard that you also apply to gays?

We can’t come to God unless we are willing to be truthful about ourselves, that I am a sinner and I deserve to punished for sin.
What of you being truthful about the genocidal son murdering god that you favor?
you confess all even your homosexuality etc.
That would include asking god why he created gays in the first place.
What would be your answer to that?
If you say that nurture and not god created them gay, then why would you hate them and not target those who nurtured them to be that way?

I’ve already explained to you that their is also no unequalness is gender.
Correct. So why are you placing yourself and other women and gays as second class citizens?

Regards
DL
 

Todd

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Deut 18: 15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers – it is to him you shall listen”.
18; “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers . And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.”

Similarities between Moses and Jesus that prove they were unique prophets in the Bible.

Both fasted for 40 nights and days
Both spent time as chidlren in Egypt after a ruler attempted to eliminate them by killing all hebrew baby boys.
Both preformed miracle to testify to their God-given authority
Both instituted a Blood covenant
Both of their ministries were publicly confirmed by the audible voice of God.
Both were used by God to miraculously proved bread for the multitudes
Seven weeks (50 days) after each one initiated an act of salvation (Moses delivering Israel from Egypt, Jesus delivering us from the power of sin through the work of the cross) God sealed a covenant and gave instruction for his people. God revealed the Torah and his ten commandments on Mount Sinai and he started the Church (the body of Christ) at pentecost by empowering believers with his Spirit. Moses chose 12 spies to explore Cannan, Jesus had 12 close disciples
Moses apponted 70 rulers over Israel, Jesus sent 70 disciples out to spread the gospel.

There are plenty more parallelsto be found, but these are some of the basic, obvious ones that make my point.
 

Lisa

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Are we not all sinners?

If so, why do the sins of women earn them second class citizen status while it does not for men?

Why are you applying an immoral double standard that you also apply to gays?
That’s what I said, we are all human and sinners.

How is having a different role in life called second class status?

I haven’t applied a double standard to homosexuals..they too must confess their sins just like me.

What of you being truthful about the genocidal son murdering god that you favor?
What does that even mean?

That would include asking god why he created gays in the first place.
What would be your answer to that?
If you say that nurture and not god created them gay, then why would you hate them and not target those who nurtured them to be that way?
He didn’t create homosexual’s. God created humans that have free will.
Who says I hate anyone? They like all people should hear that they are sinners too..the Bible doesn’t single out anyone on that account, saying all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Correct. So why are you placing yourself and other women and gays as second class citizens?
Why are you always talking about women and homosexuals in the same sentence?
 
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As I said earlier, nobody need to fear judgment when you have clean hands.
Are we not all dirty?

Disobedience was sufficient in itself.
The same disobedience that you sing of Adam’s sin being a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan?
If so, would you refuse to disobey or advise Adam to not do as he did and screw up god’s plan?

The growth of christianity has nothing to do with inquisition.
There are more christians today than ever and as far as I know, we're not forced by anyone to accept the gospel.
Now you are just stupidly trying to lie to us or are just showing how you do not know your own history.
Even today, Christianity is brainwashing children so to say that those children are not forced to believe is an outright lie. Not that you care.

Are you okay to say that morality come from the word moralis which means behaving good?
If yes, are you okay to say that you don't behave good according to the gospel
No to the first as that is not how the word morals is defined.

To your second.
I follow the gospels better than you do. I am not homophobic or misogynous which means I love my fellow men and women better than you do.

According to what?
You cannot be that stupid.
According to your Christian dogma, teachings and actions.

Regards
DL
 
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I understand the idea of speaking truth in love. I just don't understand Christian's who use it as to defend harshness, hatefullness and hurtful attitudes. One can speak truth with a loving tone, gestures and genuine concern. Hate and contempt are not traits of love.
The way you wish love to be expressed is laudable and I wish it would work.

To your last.
Hate is born from love.
The moment you create a love bias, you also create a hate bias that you apply to anything that would jeopardize that which you love.

If that which you hate can be deflected by loving ways, this is good, but if that which you hate continues to jeopardize that which you love, then reciprocity comes into play as fair play and the right thing to do is fight as dirty as required to protect what you love.

Regards
DL
 

Wigi

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Are we not all dirty?
Yes and the gospel explains how to get clean.

The same disobedience that you sing of Adam’s sin being a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan?
If so, would you refuse to disobey or advise Adam to not
Adam had a will, free will doesn't mean freedom from consequences.


Now you are just stupidly trying to lie to us or are just showing how you do not know your own history.
I've said the truth and you look triggered.
Nobody force us to believe the gospel

Christianity is brainwashing children so to say that those children are not forced to believe is an outright lie

Public school teach things and I could accurately use the word brainwash but are you forced to believe everything they say? The answer is no.

the first as that is not how the word morals is defined
Define the word morals then.

I follow the gospels better than you do. I am not homophobic or misogynous which means I love my fellow men and women better than you
It doesn't look self evident, Jesus said we would recognize people by their fruits then how is it that you can't show love but only express hatred toward people you don't like?

Have you heard about loving your enemies or it's just another thing that your superiority complex allows you to put aside because you feel enlightened in your so called humanism ?






According to your Christian dogma, teachings and actions.
By your logic, you're homophobic and misogynous since you pretend to apply the gospel better than me or anyone else I guess.
 
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I agree we all have the ability to hear God through our inner voice. However the Bible clearly seperates Jesus and Moses as the only ones who spoke directly the actual words of God and heard God's voice audibly. All the other prophets in the Bible heard God through dreams, visions and/or the same inner voice that we have access to.

In repsone to you last two sentences, I do believe in the supernatural and no I would not be considered a biblical literalist by most people's definition. Some portions of the Bible are meant to be taken literal but many are not. I think common sense, understanding the character of God correctly and of course the Spirit of God, will lead the sincere person who is not held down by religious indoctrination to correctly discern the difference.
I don’t know if you have seen or read this scholar but you should try to research the older Jewish ideology and recognize that they did not believe in a literal god. They were more like esoteric ecumenists, like Jesus was.

That is also why the leadership of the Jewish thinking is controlled by Karaite Jews and they put man above god just as all esoteric ecumenists do.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.


Regards
DL
 
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There are plenty more parallelsto be found
That is true, and should lead you, if you are going to read anything literally, to wonder why there are so many doublets and even triplets in scriptures.

Two creation myths, two flood myths etc. There is a long list but I will let you check your favorite sources.

Regards
DL
 
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That’s what I said, we are all human and sinners.

How is having a different role in life called second class status?

I haven’t applied a double standard to homosexuals..they too must confess their sins just like me.


What does that even mean?


He didn’t create homosexual’s. God created humans that have free will.
Who says I hate anyone? They like all people should hear that they are sinners too..the Bible doesn’t single out anyone on that account, saying all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Why are you always talking about women and homosexuals in the same sentence?
Now you have created a co-creator for god by saying he is not the one creating gays.

Be you just stupid, belligerent or obtuse, I have no time or patience for you.

Regards
DL
 
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Yes and the gospel explains how to get clean.


Adam had a will, free will doesn't mean freedom from consequences.



I've said the truth and you look triggered.
Nobody force us to believe the gospel




Public school teach things and I could accurately use the word brainwash but are you forced to believe everything they say? The answer is no.


Define the word morals then.



It doesn't look self evident, Jesus said we would recognize people by their fruits then how is it that you can't show love but only express hatred toward people you don't like?

Have you heard about loving your enemies or it's just another thing that your superiority complex allows you to put aside because you feel enlightened in your so called humanism ?







By your logic, you're homophobic and misogynous since you pretend to apply the gospel better than me or anyone else I guess.
If that is what you conclude, be you just stupid, belligerent or obtuse, I have no time or patience for you.

Regards
DL
 

Lisa

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Now you have created a co-creator for god by saying he is not the one creating gays.

Be you just stupid, belligerent or obtuse, I have no time or patience for you.

Regards
DL
Have I? I also said that He gave us free will. He created us with free will, doesn’t mean He has anything to do with sin.

Yet you still talk to me....lol!
 
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