Proof of god is a moral question. Do you see the morals shown for god as good or evil?

[justjess]

I’m just trying to find out why he’s/she’s so focused on those two things. I think they are good queestions to ask in trying to understand his/her hateful pov..

Hateful because he calls out Christian hypocrisy? Okay then...

Pretty sure dl is a straight male. Maybe the focus is because those are the most egregious examples of immoral consequences of your religion.

 

[Wigi]

Pretty sure dl is a straight male. Maybe the focus is because those are the most egregious examples of immoral consequences of your religion.

What immoral consequences ?
What is morality ?
Morality in secular culture is just a blurry line you can cross when you hate a group of persons

 

[justjess]

What immoral consequences ?
What is morality ?
Morality in secular culture is just a blurry line you can cross when you hate a group of persons

Love your neighbor. End of.

 

[Wigi]

Love your neighbor. End of.

Except when they speak against LGBT, feminism, leftism but maybe you believe that loving your neighbor should be a one sided thing.
Also, speaking the truth is loving your neighbor.

 

[Lisa]

Hateful because he calls out Christian hypocrisy?

Because of the words used.

Pretty sure dl is a straight male.

But you don’t actually know that for sure?

Maybe the focus is because those are the most egregious examples of immoral consequences of your religion.

What are?

 

[Lisa]

Also, speaking the truth is loving your neighbor.

This!!!

 

[Todd]

Also, speaking the truth is loving your neighbor.

I hear Christian's say this all the time, especially on this forum, yet I don't know what the biblical basis is for it.
I Cor 13
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.

Rejoicing with the truth is different than beating someone ove the head, senseless with it.

Christians use "speaking truth is love" to defend when their words come across as judgemental, hurtful and hateful.

If Christian's learned how to express love in a manner that can actually be received by sinners as being thoughful and caring, rather than coming across as judgemental and hurtful, it would open the doors to be able to speak truth in manner that is truly preceived as love by those who don't know God.

This is not just a theory, but something I have real word practical experience with, so please don't tell me it won't work. It's pretty obvious"the speaking truth in love" has won very few sinners to Christ.

 

[Wigi]

I don't know what the biblical basis is for it.

When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
Ezekiel 3:18‭-‬19

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

It's all there.

Christians use "speaking truth is love" to defend when their words come across as judgemental, hurtful and hateful.

The truth is called hurtful and hateful when it goes against people's ego.

It's pretty obvious"the speaking truth in love" has won very few sinners to Christ.

But how could you win anyone if you don't tell in a way or another that they do wrong which is the main reason why we're all sinners?

 

[justjess]

When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
Ezekiel 3:18‭-‬19


It's all there.


The truth is called hurtful and hateful when it goes against people's ego.


But how could you win anyone if you don't tell in a way or another that they do wrong which is the main reason why we're all sinners?

You will condemn homosexuals or make women subservient but stay silent when your “brothers and sisters in Christ” neglect to care for the poor or less fortunate

 

[Colonel Valerio]

It's just your opinion that reveals the real you.
I noticed that anti-theists are often misogynistic.
I don't know if it's a frustration caused by feminism but yeah.

I have noticed that fundamentalists are idiots, because you totally misunderstood the Bishop’s point with his words towards Lisa. That is not how he feels about women, it’s how Christianity does.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

OR 3)Yaheweh really does exist, but the crazy notion that every word in the Bible was spoken by God is not true. Just maybe even though all of the authors of the Bible were inspired by God, they are still human and sometimes credited ideas and rules/laws to God that were really not his. To this day we find throughout history people doing things in the name of Yahweh that obviously were not.

According to the Bible Moses and Jesus were the only two prophets in the Bible who directly spoke the words of God. If that is the case it leaves plenty of room for human ideas to be imposed over what God actually spoke.

Good points as always Todd, and something to think about. As far as your 3rd option all I can say is maybe. It certainly makes more sense than blind literalism.

Would you say that Moses sometimes got it wrong, speaking directly to God or not? Some of the things he ordered his people to do, and did himself were clearly evil. Scholarly speaking it’s not accepted that Moses wrote it anyway, which is why I still lean to option 2.

Jesus as presented in the 4 gospels in generally great, and my admiration for his ethical teaching will always remain, but what about all the nonsense that shows up with the Holy Spirit? That Jesus presented in St.John’s hallucination is not the same that was recorded on Earth.

 

[Todd]

When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
Ezekiel 3:18‭-‬19

Wow, totally out of context here. Ezekiel was a prophet sent to deliver a message to Israel, God's people who were in rebellion, as a nation. This is not speaking about personal evangelism to people who don't know God.

It's all there.

It's all there as far as telling the truth in the spirit of how the rest of the passage says love operates. Nothing about hateful, hurtful language.

The truth is called hurtful and hateful when it goes against people's ego.

presentation is everything. The only people Jesus offended with his words were the religious elite. There is not one instance in the gospels where Jesus' words came across as hurtful or hateful to sinners. The only people Jesus offended were the self righteous and the elite.

But how could you win anyone if you don't tell in a way or another that they do wrong which is the main reason why we're all sinners?

Winning people to God is not about telling them how their lifestyle is sinful. Most sinners understand deep down that their lifestyle is not inline with God's standards. They don't need you to tell them they are unrighteous.

People are won to God when they believe God loves and cares about them and the best way to show them is to be used by God to meet a real need in their life. Everything else flows from that. When people find out you have genuine care and are different then the people of the world or judgemental religious people, they want to know what makes you different. That is the opportunity to tell them it's the grace of God working in your life. Once you get them interested in that and they want to know more is when they will be open to hear how sin is truly affecting them. However at this point the walls of offense are broken down and they know you are genuine in your concern and not being judgemental or condeming.

 

[Todd]

Good points as always Todd, and something to think about. As far as your 3rd option all I can say is maybe. It certainly makes more sense than blind literalism.

Would you say that Moses sometimes got it wrong, speaking directly to God or not? Some of the things he ordered his people to do, and did himself were clearly evil. Scholarly speaking it’s not accepted that Moses wrote it anyway, which is why I still lean to option 2.

Jesus as presented in the 4 gospels in generally great, and my admiration for his ethical teaching will always remain, but what about all the nonsense that shows up with the Holy Spirit? That Jesus presented in St.John’s hallucination is not the same that was recorded on Earth.

Though Moses was the only one to hear God directly as Jesus did, unlike Jesus he was still fallible. The fact that he disobeyed God by striking the rock out of anger, he misrepresented God as being Holy. (See Numbers 20). So yes it's quite possible that Moses got it wrong more often than most Christians want to admit. This is just one example were scripture clearly says he got it wrong.

John's vision is just that...a vision. It is clearly filled with symbolism and allegory. I think you would agree that to take it literally is a mistake. That of course is why there is so much confusion and debate about the book of Revelation, because too many (including myself in the past) are trying to interpret it literally and make it fit current events. You may have noticed I stay out of most the end times prophecy discussions.

Having said that, Jesus was fulfilling different roles in the gospels then the role he will fill in the ages to come. In the gospels he was the lamb of God, that showed us and provided us the way to God. In the ages to come he will be the lion of Judah, the king and judge. So it makes sense that he is portrayed differently in the gospels and John's vision.

 

[Todd]

You will condemn homosexuals or make women subservient but stay silent when your “brothers and sisters in Christ” neglect to care for the poor or less fortunate

Good point. The religious elite and self-righteous or the only ones Jesus personally offended with his words.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I’m just trying to find out why he’s/she’s so focused on those two things. I think they are good queestions to ask in trying to understand his/her hateful pov..

??

I plead guilty to having negative feelings towards homophobes and the misogynous who refuse to grant all people equality.

I am trying to understand your love of policies that make women and gays unequal to the rest of us.

Try explaining why you love inequality. Why are you putting sex and gender above love?

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Then we simply need someone who's willing to wash us. Jesus.

Adults can wash themselves. Grow up and try it.

If you think that we don't need to destroy the root of evil before a cure, it means that you're fine with evil and it should be allowed to exist ?

Your own religion says that god created evil for his pleasure and at Easter, you sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to god's plan. You ant to destroy the roots of evil, which means you wish to destroy god.

Explain your idiocy and wish to destroy god's plan.

Sin comes from mankind and only affects mankind.
If you think evil is good, why call it evil?

God decides what sin is does he not?
If god did not want man to sin, he would not have put Satan or the talking serpent in Eden.
Evil is evil, even if it is a necessary evil.

Or you make things up because you have no clue. Which is it?

I need not make anything up and I am not surprised that you have not read your bible.
Why would god create evil if not for his pleasure?

I don't know if it's a frustration caused by feminism but yeah.

Meanwhile, you support a religion that demands misogyny.

Take the log out of your eye.

Regards
DL

 

[Lisa]

??

I plead guilty to having negative feelings towards homophobes and the misogynous who refuse to grant all people equality.

I am trying to understand your love of policies that make women and gays unequal to the rest of us.

Try explaining why you love inequality. Why are you putting sex and gender above love?

Regards
DL

They are still people..they sin..where’s the inequality in that? It’s wrong to say this group or that group should be immune to hearing about their sins because of x, when its the truth that they need to hear.

People don’t really know what love is when they think covering up people's sins is love. When in reality telling the truth is love. We can’t come to God unless we are willing to be truthful about ourselves, that I am a sinner and I deserve to punished for sin. You can’t come to God and say I am a sinner but you have no right to be mad about my homosexuality etc.... Doesn’t work like that, you confess all even your homosexuality etc. So, then you see, there is no inequality in that.

I’ve already explained to you that their is also no unequalness is gender. We are all human, and we all are sinners. Men and women have different roles in life and in the church. Where it is being abused..then God is the one to go to to get it straightened out.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Love your neighbor. End of.

To expect Christians to do as Christ asks of them is a futile task.

I appreciate what you have said of me above. Thanks.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Except when they speak against LGBT, feminism, leftism but maybe you believe that loving your neighbor should be a one sided thing.
Also, speaking the truth is loving your neighbor.

That last is true, but you literalist Christians are perpetual liars just as your lying clergy is.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I hear Christian's say this all the time, especially on this forum, yet I don't know what the biblical basis is for it.
I Cor 13
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.

Rejoicing with the truth is different than beating someone ove the head, senseless with it.

Christians use "speaking truth is love" to defend when their words come across as judgemental, hurtful and hateful.

If Christian's learned how to express love in a manner that can actually be received by sinners as being thoughful and caring, rather than coming across as judgemental and hurtful, it would open the doors to be able to speak truth in manner that is truly preceived as love by those who don't know God.

This is not just a theory, but something I have real word practical experience with, so please don't tell me it won't work. It's pretty obvious"the speaking truth in love" has won very few sinners to Christ.

The idea of speaking the truth being the loving thing to do is a good one when the practitioner knows the truth.

The problem with Christians and Muslims is that they are trying to teach lies and get upset when those lies are pointed out to them.

I quoted your whole post but this, "yet I don't know what the biblical basis is for it." --- was what triggered me to show you the following that basically says that even speaking a truth that will hurt the recipient is an act of love. It is just tough love and is often misunderstood for hate.

There is not a lot of wisdom in scriptures but this sneaked past the scribes.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Note how you and I are trying to correct Lisa but she sees what we do as hate and not the love.

Regards
DL