Proof from God that the Quran has been altered

Red Sky at Morning

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"If so, you have a synergy and one that is being popularised through the Abraham Accords, the Abrahamic Famiiy House currently being built in the UAE and the Tri-Faith initiative."
Please expound on the Tri-Faith initiative... any others with serious info or perspective on the initiative are welcome as well...
 

TempestOfTempo

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I recall that thread, but there is not much info on the TFI itself. It seems to be more of an overview conversation regarding unification agendas as they apply to larger picture.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I would like to keep it in another way, Sire.. hope to be able to turn a few thinking gears!


How do you think, infact what exactly do you think goes in a wee child's head/mind (who actually is in possession of an absolutely clean slate brain/mind with regards to the Life/Matrix and Earthly affairs) when for the first ever time in his/her life this child sees the symbol of Peace, Love, & Hope is actually nailed on a wooden cross (probably bleeding, appearing helpless, et. al.).

Think rationally, and deduce. Does what the child see would automatically/inherently bring optimism or pessimism in him/her? (Forget what he/she is being verbally told/taught. But the sight itself.. what that sight of the symbol of Peace Love and Hope being nailed on a cross, helpless; would bring to a child's psyche 'internally'?) One would easily deduce, either major bouts of doubt or pessimism!


What exactly is optimistic here when one clean-slate holder wee child is told that the symbol of Peace Love and Hope is actually nailed to a wood and is made to wear a crown full of thorns and blood oozing out everywhere!!?

I digress!
The cross I remember seeing as a child was empty. It was a symbol of victory, not ongoing sacrifice…

On the other hand, I wasn’t brought up around Catholicism.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Thank-you, but you appear to be missing the point, and with it the true reality.

You are doing exactly as both the "Christians" and the "Muslims" have been taught to do by their spiritually blind leaders, priests, pastors, imams, etc., instead of leaving them alone as Christ Commands (Matt. 15:14).

This is what Christ said, through the mouth of Jesus, about the limited power of humans to murder the mortal human body, with God ALONE having the UNLIMITED power to kill both the mortal human body and the otherwise immortal Soul (spiritual-Being).

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, BUT ARE NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell-fire.

Sura 4:157 is ONE verse which APPEARS to be claiming the crucifixion of Jesus didn't happen. But that is NOT what it actually says, if it is correctly understood. It very plainly states in most translations (and in the what is commonly referred to as the "original Arabic") that the ("Jews") falsely boasted/claimed that they killed THE IMMORTAL SOUL WE REFER TO AS THE MESSIAH/CHRIST, which is, according to Christ, IMPOSSIBLE.

When it says in the Koran The Messiah, Son of Mary, it is exactly the same as when it says Christ-Jesus in the Bible. Christ is The Messiah (Son of God) and Jesus was the Son of Mary (Son of Man).

So what you are claiming to be an irreconcilable contradiction is actually not irreconcilable or a contradiction, because it's impossible for the "Jews" or the Romans to have killed the IMMORTAL Christ (Son of God).

It was the mortal human Jesus that was crucified, died, was buried and then raised by God 3 days and 3 nights later, exactly as the very next verse (Sura 4:158) CONFIRMS.

Sura 4:158. Nay, GOD RAISED HIM UP UNTO HIMSELF and God is Exalted in Power, and in Wisdom;-

Any so-called Muslim (or "Christian") who claims differently are full of doubts, with no certain Knowledge, but only conjecture to follow. How can we be absolutely certain that what's been shared above is true?

We have confirmation of the crucifixion and resurrection elsewhere in the Koran/Quran:-

Sura 6:122. Can he who was dead (Jesus – Matt. 27:50-54, Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:44-47, John 19:30-42) to whom We gave life (Matt. 28:5-10, Mark 16:6-8, Luke 24, John 20), and a Light (John 3:19-21, John 8:3) with which he (Christ) walks amongst men, be like him who is in the depths of darkness (Lucifer), from which he can never come out? Thus to those without Faith their own deeds seem pleasing (Deut. 4:28, Matt. 6:5).

Who are those without Faith according to the Koran/Quran? Those who don't believe and follow Jesus, Whom God raised (resurrected) from the dead.

Sura 3:55. Behold! GOD SAID: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, to The Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

We even have it straight from the mouth of Jesus in the Koran that He most assuredly did die BEFORE God raised Jesus from the dead.

Sura 19:33-34
19:33. So Peace is on me the day I was born, THE DAY THAT I DIE, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"
19:34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (IT IS) A STATEMENT OF TRUTH, about which they (vainly) dispute.

Further, the Koran tells us repeatedly that it was sent to CONFIRM The Law AND THE GOSPEL. It's impossible to confirm something while contradicting it (see: Sura 2:97-98, 3:1-3, 4:47, 5:51, 6:92-94, 6:153-157, 10:37, 12:111, 22:52, 35:31, 46:12, 61:6-7).

Example:-

Sura 5:51. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety (Surah 32:23): so judge between them by what "I AM" hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have We prescribed The Law and The Open Way (John 14:6). If "I AM" had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His Plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to "I AM"; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters about which ye dispute;

And finally, the Koran/Quran repeatedly tells its readers they MUST read The Law/Old Covenant and The Gospel/New Covenant and to NOT be in doubt of it reaching them (see Sura 2:53, 2:87-93, 3:1-3, 3:48-50, 4:54, 5:46-50, 6:91-92, 6:154-157, 7:157-158, 9:111, 11:17, 15:9-10, 17:2-4, 21:48, 23:20, 23:49, 25:35, 28:1-3, 32:23, 35:25-32, 37:117, 40:53, 40:70, 41:45, 42:14-17, 45:16, 46:12, 46:30, 48:29, 53:36-47, 57:25-29, 61:6).

Example (please note well the Unlettered Prophet/Messenger of God is Christ):-

Sura 7:157-158
7:157. "Those who follow The Apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures - the Bible),- in The Law (Torah) and the Gospel (New Testament - Covenant);- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); he releases them from their heavy burdens (Matthew 23:1-4) and from the yokes that are upon them (Matt. 11:28-30). So it is those who believe him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper (King of kings' Bible - John 8:3, KJV John 8:12)."
7:158. Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of "I AM", to Whom belongeth the Dominion of the heavens and the Earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in "I AM" and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet (John 7:15-19), who believeth "I AM" and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided (by "The Way" - John 14:6)."

So we can either choose to believe in the very obvious MISUNDERSTANDING of one single verse

...or...

we can choose to believe dozens and dozens and dozens of verses throughout the Old Covenant, New Covenant and Koran/Quran, which prophesy, record and confirm (respectively) the crucifixion and resurrection of JESUS.

God is NOT the author of confusion; Satan is (1 Cor. 14:33).

https://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=157
(Note well that Christ is again identified as "The Messenger of God"):

Sahih International: And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Pickthall: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it APPEARED so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

Yusuf Ali: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to APPEAR to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Shakir: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it APPEARED to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Muhammad Sarwar: and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed (the question of whether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus.

Mohsin Khan: And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]:

Arberry: and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they slew him not of a certainty -- no indeed;


The above are based on what is considered the "original" Arabic which, as you are starting to see, isn't actually the true original, which was written in Syriac (Syro-Aramaic), the same language that Jesus spoke and wrote.

From: https://www.hope-of-israel.org/h&a.html

Eusebius and the Messiah
What language did the Messiah use in his daily intercourse with his followers and those who came in contact with him? The Greek Bishop Eusebius (263 -- 339 A.D.), often referred to as the “Father of Ecclesiastical History,” offers a fascinating insight –


Eusebius goes on to show a copy of a letter written by Abgar the Toparch to the Messiah and delivered to him at Jerusalem by the courier Ananias; and then the Messiah’s reply to Abgar, delivered by the courier Ananias -- both translated from the original Syriac by Eusebius. Now “Syriac” is simply another term for Aramaic; so this passage clearly shows that the Messiah was familiar with -- and carried out his daily tasks -- in the Aramaic language.

Eusebius goes on to say (page 67) that “To these letters is subjoined the following IN SYRIAC [ARAMAIC]:” Then, on page 70 of his work, he concludes by saying, “Here we may leave for the present this valuable document [the letters to and from the Messiah], LITERALLY TRANSLATED FROM SYRIAC [ARAMAIC].”
So to summarise your position, true Islam (and therefore true Muslims who embrace the teachings of Muhammad) would be in support of the following early Christian creed?

1 Corinthians 15
King James Version


15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

p.s. I once had a conversation about faith with a Mormon friend of mine - rather than concentrate on areas we disagreed on, I simply said that Christianity hinged on what you believed about Jesus, then showed him this short sketch. It might not say everything, but what it does say is true.

 
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The cross I remember seeing as a child was empty. It was a symbol of victory, not ongoing sacrifice…

On the other hand, I wasn’t brought up around Catholicism.

Albeit you do stress on the crucifixion though, don't you Sir?

And btw victory from what exactly, I genuinely wish to know?!

And sacrifice? When the child wasn't there literally present at the time of Jesus Christ then what ongoing sacrifice is that child talking about?


Its a storyline and there is no personal experience, person testimony apart from what the child is / have been taught and told by others.


Unfortunately, that is how it is with every and ALL religions and their branches.



But, nevertheless, I reckon you missed the point I was trying to make entirely.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Albeit you do stress on the crucifixion though, don't you Sir?

And btw victory from what exactly, I genuinely wish to know?!

And sacrifice? When the child wasn't there literally present at the time of Jesus Christ then what ongoing sacrifice is that child talking about?


Its a storyline and there is no personal experience, person testimony apart from what the child is / have been taught and told by others.


Unfortunately, that is how it is with every and ALL religions and their branches.



But, nevertheless, I reckon you missed the point I was trying to make entirely.
Does 1 Corinthians 1 come anywhere close to the issue?


Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
 
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Would many years of answered prayers, healings, insights beyond my own reach, miracles etc not go beyond mere indoctrination in a religious system?
Again, please don't take me wrong.

Ofcourse TheCreator is present everywhere right this moment and was and will be, i.e. OmniPresent.

Ofcourse Jesus Christ brought the same message to humanity whilst that time, that was "Behold! The Kingdom Of God is Within YOU!"

Ofcourse the epitome and apexmost benchmark of a male human being life was set and example of how to live that male life was given to human beings by none other individual but Christ himself.

Ofcourse your answered prayers, healings, insights et. al. were delivered and will definitely be delivered till you're alive and breathing (equally goes for each one of us, who's alive and breathing) provided these effervesce from our heart that is akin to a child's heart.

But at the same time there are also quite a lot of things that this matrix and especially the gatekeepers of the matrix have taught us, told us that are directly in contravention to, imho, what Christ himself wanted to convey. I am, personally, simply not inclined to be a cog of this mechanism that the gatekeepers of the matrix have built for us gullible beings.

PowerOfSteppingAway.jpeg

In that sense, I was just trying to request to ask the significance of the Christ body nailed on the cross... What would this sight signify to a child, who is by design - having a clean-slate of Earthly affairs and this matrix, who would see this sight first time ever in his/her life!!? #Rhetorical(now)
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Again, please don't take me wrong.

Ofcourse TheCreator is present everywhere right this moment and was and will be, i.e. OmniPresent.

Ofcourse Jesus Christ brought the same message to humanity whilst that time, that was "Behold! The Kingdom Of God is Within YOU!"

Ofcourse the epitome and apexmost benchmark of a male human being life was set and example of how to live that male life was given to human beings by none other individual but Christ himself.

Ofcourse your answered prayers, healings, insights et. al. were delivered and will definitely be delivered till you're alive and breathing (equally goes for each one of us, who's alive and breathing) provided these effervesce from our heart that is akin to a child's heart.

But at the same time there are also quite a lot of things that this matrix and especially the gatekeepers of the matrix have taught us, told us that are directly in contravention to, imho, what Christ himself wanted to convey. I am, personally, simply not inclined to be a cog of this mechanism that the gatekeepers of the matrix have built for us gullible beings.

View attachment 76809

In that sense, I was just trying to request to ask the significance of the Christ body nailed on the cross... What would this sight signify to a child, who is by design - having a clean-slate of Earthly affairs and this matrix, who would see this sight first time ever in his/her life!!? #Rhetorical(now)
Two OT passages, written before the cross. No gatekeepers. Your choice.

Exodus 13

The Law of the Firstborn
11“And it shall be, when the Lord brings you into the land of the Canaanites, as He swore to you and your fathers, and gives it to you, 12that you shall [d]set apart to the Lord all that open the womb, that is, every firstborn that comes from an animal which you have; the males shall be the Lord’s. 13But every firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb; and if you will not redeem it, then you shall break its neck. And all the firstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem. 14So it shall be, when your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What isthis?’ that you shall say to him, ‘By strength of hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Isaiah 53

…He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
 
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Two OT passages, written before the cross. No gatekeepers. Your choice.

Exodus 13

The Law of the Firstborn
11“And it shall be, when the Lord brings you into the land of the Canaanites, as He swore to you and your fathers, and gives it to you, 12that you shall [d]set apart to the Lord all that open the womb, that is, every firstborn that comes from an animal which you have; the males shall be the Lord’s. 13But every firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb; and if you will not redeem it, then you shall break its neck. And all the firstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem. 14So it shall be, when your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What isthis?’ that you shall say to him, ‘By strength of hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Isaiah 53

…He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

No gatekeepers
See that is the thing Sir. You're so very confident in the text that it seems like you were the one who listened directly what was being said by all the messengers and wrote the manuscript of the Gospel and you were the one who has kept that manuscript secure till date with you i.e. whilst approx. 2000 years or so.

But its okay I guess. Admittedly, once, I was exactly like you too.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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See that is the thing Sir. You're so very confident in the text that it seems like you were the one who listened directly what was being said by all the messengers and wrote the manuscript of the Gospel and you were the one who has kept that manuscript secure till date with you i.e. whilst approx. 2000 years or so.

But its okay I guess. Admittedly, once, I was exactly like you too.
Given that the Jews hold only to the OT and reject Jesus as the fulfilment of the Passover, would you not regard passages like Isaiah 53 as an inconvenience to their religious narrative (as evidenced modern Jews discomfort at hearing it?)

 
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Given that the Jews hold only to the OT and reject Jesus as the fulfilment of the Passover, would you not regard passages like Isaiah 53 as an inconvenience to their religious narrative (as evidenced modern Jews discomfort at hearing it?)

I personally do not have discomfort with any passage in any text, afterall my life is mine and anyone else's life is theirs.

I certainly may have discomfort with planetary malevolence. Because should a person is (as they claim to be) so enlightened with their respective scripture/text, but cannot demonstrate and defend actual planetary benevolence, is actually pretending to be enlightened but is in actuality, NOT.

And I definitely know that whoever has been the most wrong will surely be dealt with the same way, by design. Either it be any religious follower. Afterall religion isn't some sort of body part (so to speak) provided by TheCreator. Religion is something this matrix deliberately stamps and delivers on a wee child (without even being sure whether that child even wants it or not?).
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I personally do not have discomfort with any passage in any text, afterall my life is mine and anyone else's life is theirs.

I certainly may have discomfort with planetary malevolence. Because should a person is (as they claim to be) so enlightened with their respective scripture/text, but cannot demonstrate and defend actual planetary benevolence, is actually pretending to be enlightened but is in actuality, NOT.

And I definitely know that whoever has been the most wrong will surely be dealt with the same way, by design. Either it be any religious follower. Afterall religion isn't some sort of body part (so to speak) provided by TheCreator. Religion is something this matrix deliberately stamps and delivers on a wee child (without even being sure whether that child even wants it or not?).
I think we have a somewhat different thought process, that’s all…

From where I stand, truth is truth whether we want it or not @HansConsciousness - some truths are agreeable to us, others unwelcome. Some make us comfortable, others press us to act or decide.

My only point is citing the OT was to point out that it had been preserved and curated by Jews for centuries before the cross, yet is woven through with types, hints, shadows and allegories of who and what the promised messiah would be. The historical reality of Jesus gives no leeway to attribute the key events of the gospels to myth. But that’s just me…

Do your own studies and draw your own conclusions. God bless.
 

A Freeman

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So to summarise your position, true Islam (and therefore true Muslims who embrace the teachings of Muhammad) would be in support of the following early Christian creed?

1 Corinthians 15
King James Version


15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
Is this really the true Christian creed though, or what "Christianity" teaches please?

IF we go to the Gospel of Jesus, as recorded by Matthew, Mark Luke and John (and Thomas), there isn't one single reference to Christ being crucified.

ALL of the references to the crucifixion in the Gospel accounts specifically state that Jesus, aka "the Son of Man" was crucified and raised by God 3 days and 3 nights later. There isn't one single reference in the entire Gospel that states "Christ, the Son of God, was crucified" or that "Christ, the Son of God, died". Please see (hopefully all of) them in the Spoiler section below:-

Gospel References to the Crucifixion of Jesus, Son of Man
Matthew 12:39-40
12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and unfaithfull generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the Prophet Jonah:
12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 16:13-17
16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of Man am?
16:14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the Prophets.
16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God (the Rock; Truth or Corner Stone).
16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 17:22-23
17:22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of Man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
17:23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

Matthew 20:18-19
20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of Man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the lawyers, and they shall condemn him to death,
20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.
Matthew 26:1-2
26:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,
26:2 Ye know that after two days is [The Feast of] The Passover, and the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified.

Matthew 27:22-26, 35-38
27:22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? [They] all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
27:23 And the Governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but [that] rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed [his] hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye [to it].
27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us (the Jews), and on our children (descendants).
27:26 Then released he Son of Abba unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered [him] to be crucified.

27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
27:36 And sitting down they watched him there;
27:37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Matthew 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take [your] rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Matthew 27:44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Matthew 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.


Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of Man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Mark 10:33-34
10:33 [Saying], Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of Man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the lawyers; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:
10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Mark 15:15 And [so] Pilate, willing to content the people, released Son of Abba unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged [him], to be crucified.

Mark 15:24-28, 32
15:24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
15:26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
15:27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
15:28 And the Scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Mark 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus the Nazarite, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.


Luke 9:22 Saying, The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and lawyers, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Luke 18:31-33
18:31 Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the Prophets concerning the Son of Man shall be accomplished.
18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
18:33 And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 23:20-23
23:20 Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spoke again to them.
23:21 But they cried, saying, Crucify [him], crucify him.
23:22 And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let [him] go.
23:23 And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed.

Luke 24:4-7
24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down [their] faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spoke unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
24:7 Saying, The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.


John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up:

John 19:13-42
19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the Judgment Seat in a place that is called The Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
19:14 And it was the preparation of The Passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
19:15 But they cried out, Away with [him], away with [him], crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led [him] away.
19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called [the place] of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
19:18 Where they crucified him, and two others with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.
19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS NAZIR THE KING OF THE JEWS.
19:20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, [and] Greek, [and] Latin.
19:21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
19:22 Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.
19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also [his] coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the Scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and his mother's sister, and Mary Magdalene.
19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].
19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to his mouth.
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the Spirit.
19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath day, (for that Sabbath day was an high day [The Passover - Wednesday 21/4/34],) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away.
19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
19:35 And he that saw [it] bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
19:36 For these things were done, that the Scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
19:37 And again another Scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave [him] leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound [weight].
19:40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation [day]; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
Jesus was the "Son of Man", i.e. the human son born of the virgin Mary.

Christ is the Son of God, i.e. the One and Only Spirit-Being (Soul) that God Himself Anointed. Christ alone is THE Master/Teacher, i.e. the One and Only qualified to teach on this planet.

Matthew 23:8-10
23:8 But be not ye called priest (etc.): for One is your Teacher, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for One is your Master, [even] Christ.

Christ (the Immortal spirit-Being and Son of God) INCARNATED Jesus 2000 years ago ("The Word was MADE flesh"). The difficulty is, as Christ explained through the mouth of Jesus 2000 years ago, that people refuse to open their spiritual eyes to see the Christ INSIDE of Jesus.

John 1:9-10
1:9 [That] was the True Light, which Lighteth every man that cometh into the world (Christ).
1:10 He (Christ) was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world (humans) knew him not (could not SEE him inside the body of Jesus).

In the letters of Paul, which we are warned are difficult to understand (2 Pet. 3:16) -- because Paul did NOT speak as clearly about spiritual matters as Christ -- we find the terms Jesus, Jesus-Christ, and Christ, frequently used interchangeably and without definitions, which is NOT how those names/titles are used in the Gospel accounts.

Crucifixion references in the Book of Acts and letters of Paul
Acts 2:22-23
2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus the Nazarite, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and (Clear) Signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 2:32-36
2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The "I AM" said unto my Lord, Sit thou on My right hand,
2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
2:36 Therefore let all the House of Israel know assuredly, that God hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarite, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Galatians 2:20 My "Self" is crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I (the "Self"), but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey The Truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 5:24 And they that ARE Christ's have [already] crucified the "Self" with the [partiality of] affections and lusts (of the flesh).

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, except in the cross of our Lord Christ Jesus, by whom the world is crucified to me, and I unto the world.

1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1 Corinthians 2:7-8
2:7 But we speak the Wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [Wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

2 Corinthians 13:3-4
13:3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which toward you is not weak, but is mighty in you.
13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness*, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak with him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Matthew 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly [is] ready, but the flesh [is] weak.

Romans 6:6-9
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he (the "Self") that is dead is freed from sin.
6:8 Now if we (our "Self") be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also Live with him:
6:9 Knowing that Jesus being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Paul, who was a primary school student, did Christ a great disservice by trying to teach, in direct disobedience to Christ's COMMAND. This has caused great confusion for many, including "Christians", who usually turn to their misinterpretations of the letters of Paul for refuge from what Christ has COMMANDED we do (e.g. we are COMMANDED to keep The Law that God gave us). "Christianity" today would be more aptly referred to as "Paulianity" for that reason.

So, in answer to your question, TRUE Islam (and therefore TRUE Muslims) MUST accept Christ's TRUE Teachings, including the fact that Jesus WAS crucified, died and was buried for 3 days and 3 nights, before God Himself raised Jesus from the dead. They MUST also return to keeping The Law, or they will remain under its curse/penalty clause (the penalty for not keeping The Law is death).

Similarly, TRUE Christianity (and therefore TRUE Christians) MUST accept Christ's TRUE Teachings, and return to keeping The Perfect Law of Liberty that God gave us (found only in the first five Books of the Bible), as Christ COMMANDS.

p.s. I once had a conversation about faith with a Mormon friend of mine - rather than concentrate on areas we disagreed on, I simply said that Christianity hinged on what you believed about Jesus, then showed him this short sketch. It might not say everything, but what it does say is true.
Pretty unscriptural sketch though according to Christ, wouldn't you agree?

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.

Revelation 20:12-15
20:12 And I saw the "Dead", small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another Book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life: and the "Dead" were judged out of those things which were written in the Books, according to their works.
20:13 And the "sea" gave up the "Dead" which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their WORKS.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the "Lake of Fire". This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the "Lake of Fire".

Even Paul plainly stated that the price paid for by Jesus was for our PAST sins; NOT to give us the freedom to sin with impunity, as is widely taught throughout "Christianity" (and the video sketch you shared):-

Romans 2:23-25
3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
3:24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
3:25 Whom God hath fore-ordained [to be] an atonement through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;

Ephesians 2:8-10
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to DO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (do them - good works).
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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@lightseeker

“Even Paul plainly stated that the price paid for by Jesus was for our PAST sins; NOT to give us the freedom to sin with impunity, as is widely taught throughout "Christianity" (and the video sketch you shared:-“

Romans 6, 7 and 8 explain very well the relationship of the Christian to the flesh (which works sin) and the Spirt (which works righteousness)

I often listen to the Bible so I don’t get distracted by verse numbers and chapter headings. Listen to the letter to the Romans from about 14 minutes in.

 

A Freeman

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Again, please don't take me wrong.

Ofcourse TheCreator is present everywhere right this moment and was and will be, i.e. OmniPresent.

Ofcourse Jesus Christ brought the same message to humanity whilst that time, that was "Behold! The Kingdom Of God is Within YOU!"

Ofcourse the epitome and apexmost benchmark of a male human being life was set and example of how to live that male life was given to human beings by none other individual but Christ himself.

Ofcourse your answered prayers, healings, insights et. al. were delivered and will definitely be delivered till you're alive and breathing (equally goes for each one of us, who's alive and breathing) provided these effervesce from our heart that is akin to a child's heart.

But at the same time there are also quite a lot of things that this matrix and especially the gatekeepers of the matrix have taught us, told us that are directly in contravention to, imho, what Christ himself wanted to convey. I am, personally, simply not inclined to be a cog of this mechanism that the gatekeepers of the matrix have built for us gullible beings.

View attachment 76809

In that sense, I was just trying to request to ask the significance of the Christ body nailed on the cross... What would this sight signify to a child, who is by design - having a clean-slate of Earthly affairs and this matrix, who would see this sight first time ever in his/her life!!? #Rhetorical(now)
It's only fair to turn this question around and ask how you would explain to a child the concepts of injustice and oppression, and how to overcome them with The Law? Or of greed and selfishness, and the use of discipline and self-sacrifice to overcome greed and selfishness?

God gave us His Perfect Law of Liberty to protect us from all of this evil and to set and keep us free from injustice and oppression, caused by greed and selfishness.

If you were a child, and your parents had given you a strict rule NOT to play in the street (even though the other kids were doing it), what lesson do you think the child would learn if that rule (given for their safety and protection) went unenforced? And how would you feel as a parent if your child was injured or killed while playing in the street, because you didn't enforce that rule?

A few of the many significant lessons taught by the body of Jesus (that Christ incarnated) being nailed to the cross:-

-- It (Jesus nailed to the cross) symbolizes gross injustice and oppression, carried out by the two primary culprits of all injustice and oppression on this planet: church and state. It was the ruling body of the organized religion of that time -- the Sanhedrin -- that schemed and manipulated the Roman government into crucifying an innocent man.

-- It (Jesus nailed to the cross) symbolizes the worldly "gold" standard: no good deed seems to go unpunished (and conversely no evil deed seems to go unrewarded) when men make up their own rules to make the rich even richer and the poor even poorer (you make the Commandments of God of no effect by your "traditions"/made-up rules).

-- It (the cross) symbolizes the laying down of one's life for others, i.e. "self"-sacrifice for the greater, common good.

-- It (the cross) symbolizes the burden each of us has been given to bear: our "self" (stand in front of a mirror with your body's arms straight out horizontally from side-to-side to form a cross: that is the ego/"self"/human flesh each of us needs to learn to crucify DAILY).

-- It (the crucifixion) exemplifies the dauntless determination each of us must strive for to do God's Will here on Earth, as it is in Heaven. In other words, being willing to follow God's LAW/COMMANDS to the death of the human body, KNOWING that no human can kill the REAL you: the spiritual-Being/Soul within the human body seen in the mirror.

-- It (the crucifixion) exemplifies and teaches personal responsibility for our actions, with God Himself having to sacrifice His Eldest/Firstborn Son and at the same time holding The Teacher accountable for the failure of the students (us) to learn the lesson. This in turn should teach each of us personal responsibility for the outcome of every situation we're involved in, instead of trying to shift the blame onto others.

-- It (the crucifixion, followed by the resurrection) should teach everyone that THERE IS SPIRITUAL LIFE AFTER THE DEATH OF THE HUMAN BODY. We are NOT this crude matter (mortal human flesh); we are spiritual-energy Beings of Light that are only temporarily incarnated/incarcerated inside of the human animal body we see in the mirror. IF this is truly understood, then any fear of the death of the human body is irrational.

One of the biggest lies that the gatekeepers (attorneys and politicians, priests, pastors, rabbis, imams, etc.) have told us is that "we are only human after all". If we learn to accept that our Creator is our Heavenly (and only real) Father, and that He knows best about EVERYTHING, then we can again become as "little children" who trust in their Father's Wisdom and Protection, knowing Father will NEVER let us down as long as we strive to do His Will (perfection).
 
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I think we have a somewhat different thought process, that’s all…
I concur.

From where I stand, truth is truth whether we want it or not @HansConsciousness - some truths are agreeable to us, others unwelcome. Some make us comfortable, others press us to act or decide.
Indeed. Concur.
Albeit, it goes both ways, Sir.

And I would like to add that there are definitely a few truths that may be true even if we both (or even the entire humanity) disagree to.

Would you concur?

My only point is citing the OT was to point out that it had been preserved and curated by Jews for centuries before the cross, yet is woven through with types, hints, shadows and allegories of who and what the promised messiah would be. The historical reality of Jesus gives no leeway to attribute the key events of the gospels to myth. But that’s just me…

Do your own studies and draw your own conclusions. God bless.
I never claimed the entire Gospel/OT or NT to be a myth i.e. "a mere story". That much I can deduce and be cognizant that there definitely has to be a man named Jesus Christ who unequivocally gave humanity (especially males) the apex most benchmark on how to live a human life with perfection and excellence. Albeit that is exactly the crux of it.

But otherwise, should we get ourselves tangled into the details apart from the Christ's message to humanity, then you know I know that it can and it will get muddy.
Because it's been what 2000 odd years and till date we human beings disregard Christ's timeless message to humanity i.e. Luke 17:21 and try to disentangle the other details of life of Jesus Christ. But nothing happens. And nothing will.

The human body that was called Jesus Christ is no more with us, only The Spirit remains. So, by using the term/word storyline, I was not trying to disregard anything. But the point I was trying to make was/is that the timeless message of Jesus Christ that he so kindly gave to humanity is the only important 'entity' that we all need to cling on, share and discover, indeed discover!

But that's merely my humble opinion.


Thank you for the blessings.
And God bless you too, Sire.
 

Sibi

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Messages
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Don't forget the Satanic verses

Sura an-Najm (Star) 53:19-22
Now tell me about Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat,
The third one, another goddess.
What! For you the males and for him the females!
That indeed is an unfair division.
أَفَرَأَيْتُمُ اللَّاتَ وَالْعُزَّى
وَمَنَاةَ الثَّالِثَةَ الْأُخْرَى
أَلَكُمُ الذَّكَرُ وَلَهُ الْأُنثَى
تِلْكَ إِذًا قِسْمَةٌ ضِيزَى. سورة النجم - سورة ‏٥٣: ١٩-٢٢‏​

When Muhammad and his community came under severe persecution, eighty-three of his followers who had no protection emigrated from Mecca to Ethiopia, taking refuge in the ancient Christian country, Abyssinia.1 Under increasing boycotts and pressure, Muhammad went through a time of weakness and compromised with the Meccan pagans by acknowledging the existence of three pagan goddesses alongside Allah: Lat, Uzza, and Manat.2 The Arabian goddesses are mentioned in Sura an-Najm (Star) 53:19-22.​
The statement that Allah was involved with female goddesses while Muhammad and his people were left with men, was cynically discussed by author Salman Rushdie.3 He made the impure account even more obscene. His book was regarded as utterly blasphemous by all Muslims.​
When the inhabitants of Mecca heard Muhammad's confess the importance of the ancient goddesses inside the Ka'aba, they immediately revoked their ban on him. Those who had immigrated to Abyssinia (Ethiopia) started to return home after hearing Muhammad's confession and his acceptance in Mecca. But when they arrived, they were shocked to hear that Muhammad had retracted his confession and admitted that he had fallen prey to the whispering of Satan. Thus, today Islam considers Sura an-Najm (Star) 53:19-22 are related to the time when Muhammad spoke the Satanic Verses. Salman Rushdie did not invent the Satanic verses.4​
In Sura Hajj (Pilgrimage) 22:52-53, Muhammad confessed his mistake, alleging that all prophets were tempted by Satan who inspire them with demonic verses, as if they were actually revealed by God. But later on Allah abrogated those Satanic Verses with new revelations and instructs his prophets with new verses. According to Islam, Allah permits such demonic inspiration to test weak believers and to cut off those with hardened hearts.​
Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:​
That He may make the suggestions thrown in by Satan, but a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and who are hardened of heart: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth): Hajj (Pilgrimage) 22:52-53. Yusuf 'Ali's translation​
The true, vital issue about the Satanic verses is this. If Muhammad were unable to distinguish Satan's voice from God's voice, then could there be verses in the Qur'an that Muhammad assumed were from God but were really from Satan?
 
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