Problematic verses for replacement theologists

Thunderian

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Replacement theology -- the belief that the physical nation of Israel has been replaced by the worldwide body of believers, the Church -- is something I come across more and more these days, but a quick study of a few passages and verses of the word of God is able to dispel replacement theology for the false doctrine it is. The doctrine itself is supported only by a misunderstanding of scripture, and can only be held on to by ignoring vast swathes of the Bible, as we shall see.

I'm going to note some of the central premises of replacement theology, and then provide the scripture that proves them false.

False premise 1: God has cast Israel aside because of their sin

God himself destroys the possibility of his ever doing this in Jeremiah 31. He says that when the sun, moon and stars stop giving light, and when the entire universe can be measured, then, and only then, Israel will no longer be a nation, and will be cast aside.

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

To a simple layman like myself, a word from God that he will never do something is good enough. I accept it, and based on my understanding of the character of God, it would be shocking and wrong for the Almighty to ever go back on a promise he's made. Our salvation rests on his promise, so to say that God would go back on his word to Israel also says that God could go back in his word to us. Quite simply, replacement theology calls God a liar.

You would think the prospect of calling God a liar would slow the roll of replacement theologists somewhat. Again, to an untutored rube like myself, I only have to read those verses once to realize that the nation of Israel is forever, and that God will never cast it aside for any reason. In the light of those verses, any theology that says otherwise is heresy. How could it not be?

False premise 1a: Israel forfeited their inheritance and their standing in God's eyes by rejecting Jesus Christ, the Messiah

The scripture promised that Jesus Christ would be rejected by Israel, and in no part of scripture do we read that their penalty for this was their eternal casting away. If we read the Bible, we see that Israel was always sent prophets to warn them of the consequences of their sin, but there is not a single place in the Old or New Testament where Israel is warned of losing their inheritance, eternal standing, or spiritual designation in the eyes of the Lord. Not one single verse stands in support of that heresy.

Furthermore, Israel's sin of rejecting the Messiah, and the penalty they will pay for it, are clearly spelled out by the prophet and Messiah Jesus Christ in Luke 13:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Yes, Jesus clearly says that the house of Israel is left desolate, but he doesn't say it will be left desolate forever, only until the time comes when they accept their Messiah, Jesus Christ. Confirmation of this is found in 2 Corinthians, where Paul speaks of the vail that is covering the heart of the children of Israel, a vail that will be lifted when they turn to the Lord.

False premise 2: The physical descendants of Israel are able to be replaced spiritually by believers, thus inheriting all the promises God made to Abraham and his seed

There is clear scripture that unequivocally denies this. When Abram asked God who his heirs would be, God promised him that his heirs would be his physical descendants.

And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

To my simple and trusting, some would say, child-like, mind, that means that unless a person is a literal child of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that person doesn't qualify as one of Abraham's seed, who are called the children of Israel. If we take God at his word, as I hope we all do, then any doctrine that teaches otherwise must be false, and must be rejected.

False premise 3: Israel is so dispersed and scattered, there is no way they could ever constitute a nation again

The verse I've already mentioned from Jeremiah applies to this premise as well, when God promises that as long as there is a sun, moon and stars, Israel will be a nation in his eyes. I would also add that nothing is too hard for the Lord, so if he wants to gather the nation of Israel again, as he promised in Jeremiah 32 and elsewhere in the Bible, he is certainly able to do that. But along with the promises God makes regarding the future and eternal position of his people, Israel, we only have to look at the New Testament to see God's view and plan for Israel.

James addresses his letter specifically to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, and Paul spends much of the book of Romans speaking about the current state and future position of the physical nation of Israel -- especially in chapter 11 when he identifies himself as an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham -- and says in clear and strong language that God hath NOT cast away Israel. Finally, Revelation 7 tells us about a group of 144,000, drawn from each of the tribes of the children of Israel, that will act as special, spiritually sealed and protected preachers of Jesus Christ in the last days. If Israel is scattered and cast away by God, NONE of those verses make any sense. Again, by interpreting them with no reference to the verses about Israel that have already been posted, God is called a liar, and the plain words of scripture are tossed aside in favour of a twisted and ignorant heresy.

I welcome any Bible-based criticism of the case I've made in this post. There is certainly a lot of Bible to answer, if you hold to replacement theology, and I've only scratched the surface. There are literally entire books about the rebirth and redemption of the children of Israel, and I look forward to a vigorous and spirited exploration of the word of God on this subject.
 






Lisa

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Just read Romans 11...Paul says that God hasn’t rejected His people and he goes on to talk about what’s happening..that a partial hardening has happened to the Jews until the fullness of the gentiles has come in..and then all Israel will be saved. all of Romans 11 talks about how God isn’t done with Israel yet but these next verses are important where they talk about us gentiles not to get conceited about being grafted in. I especially think that God telling us that if it happened to them it could happen to us is interesting especially since people like to believe we can never lose our salvation....if we continue in God’s kindness otherwise we will be cut off.

Romans‬ ‭11:19-23, 25-29‬ ‭
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.” “THIS IS M Y COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.” From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​
‭‭
 






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I welcome any Bible-based criticism of the case I've made in this post. There is certainly a lot of Bible to answer, if you hold to replacement theology, and I've only scratched the surface. There are literally entire books about the rebirth and redemption of the children of Israel, and I look forward to a vigorous and spirited exploration of the word of God on this subject.
No criticism. God said to King David in 2 Samual 7:4-19 That there would always be a son of David on the throne over Israel. It is called (The Davidic Covenant). It is irreversible. But God said that in times of disobedience, He would chastise Israel...not disband them (Psalms 89:20-37). Christ is the head of the Church, not king of the church. He is the Son of David and the King of Israel and the nations. Study these two Scripture references and I hope it enlightens you.
 






Thunderian

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No criticism. God said to King David in 2 Samual 7:4-19 That there would always be a son of David on the throne over Israel. It is called (The Davidic Covenant). It is irreversible. But God said that in times of disobedience, He would chastise Israel...not disband them (Psalms 89:20-37). Christ is the head of the Church, not king of the church. He is the Son of David and the King of Israel and the nations. Study these two Scripture references and I hope it enlightens you.
Thank you. There is so much in the Bible that reinforces Israel’s place in God’s plan. I’m not sure how it’s possible to read it sensibly unless you know where Israel goes.
 






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Replacement theology -- the belief that the physical nation of Israel has been replaced by the worldwide body of believers, the Church -- is something I come across more and more these days, but a quick study of a few passages and verses of the word of God is able to dispel replacement theology for the false doctrine it is. The doctrine itself is supported only by a misunderstanding of scripture, and can only be held on to by ignoring vast swathes of the Bible, as we shall see.

I'm going to note some of the central premises of replacement theology, and then provide the scripture that proves them false.

False premise 1: God has cast Israel aside because of their sin

God himself destroys the possibility of his ever doing this in Jeremiah 31. He says that when the sun, moon and stars stop giving light, and when the entire universe can be measured, then, and only then, Israel will no longer be a nation, and will be cast aside.

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

To a simple layman like myself, a word from God that he will never do something is good enough. I accept it, and based on my understanding of the character of God, it would be shocking and wrong for the Almighty to ever go back on a promise he's made. Our salvation rests on his promise, so to say that God would go back on his word to Israel also says that God could go back in his word to us. Quite simply, replacement theology calls God a liar.

You would think the prospect of calling God a liar would slow the roll of replacement theologists somewhat. Again, to an untutored rube like myself, I only have to read those verses once to realize that the nation of Israel is forever, and that God will never cast it aside for any reason. In the light of those verses, any theology that says otherwise is heresy. How could it not be?

False premise 1a: Israel forfeited their inheritance and their standing in God's eyes by rejecting Jesus Christ, the Messiah

The scripture promised that Jesus Christ would be rejected by Israel, and in no part of scripture do we read that their penalty for this was their eternal casting away. If we read the Bible, we see that Israel was always sent prophets to warn them of the consequences of their sin, but there is not a single place in the Old or New Testament where Israel is warned of losing their inheritance, eternal standing, or spiritual designation in the eyes of the Lord. Not one single verse stands in support of that heresy.

Furthermore, Israel's sin of rejecting the Messiah, and the penalty they will pay for it, are clearly spelled out by the prophet and Messiah Jesus Christ in Luke 13:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Yes, Jesus clearly says that the house of Israel is left desolate, but he doesn't say it will be left desolate forever, only until the time comes when they accept their Messiah, Jesus Christ. Confirmation of this is found in 2 Corinthians, where Paul speaks of the vail that is covering the heart of the children of Israel, a vail that will be lifted when they turn to the Lord.

False premise 2: The physical descendants of Israel are able to be replaced spiritually by believers, thus inheriting all the promises God made to Abraham and his seed

There is clear scripture that unequivocally denies this. When Abram asked God who his heirs would be, God promised him that his heirs would be his physical descendants.

And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

To my simple and trusting, some would say, child-like, mind, that means that unless a person is a literal child of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that person doesn't qualify as one of Abraham's seed, who are called the children of Israel. If we take God at his word, as I hope we all do, then any doctrine that teaches otherwise must be false, and must be rejected.

False premise 3: Israel is so dispersed and scattered, there is no way they could ever constitute a nation again

The verse I've already mentioned from Jeremiah applies to this premise as well, when God promises that as long as there is a sun, moon and stars, Israel will be a nation in his eyes. I would also add that nothing is too hard for the Lord, so if he wants to gather the nation of Israel again, as he promised in Jeremiah 32 and elsewhere in the Bible, he is certainly able to do that. But along with the promises God makes regarding the future and eternal position of his people, Israel, we only have to look at the New Testament to see God's view and plan for Israel.

James addresses his letter specifically to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, and Paul spends much of the book of Romans speaking about the current state and future position of the physical nation of Israel -- especially in chapter 11 when he identifies himself as an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham -- and says in clear and strong language that God hath NOT cast away Israel. Finally, Revelation 7 tells us about a group of 144,000, drawn from each of the tribes of the children of Israel, that will act as special, spiritually sealed and protected preachers of Jesus Christ in the last days. If Israel is scattered and cast away by God, NONE of those verses make any sense. Again, by interpreting them with no reference to the verses about Israel that have already been posted, God is called a liar, and the plain words of scripture are tossed aside in favour of a twisted and ignorant heresy.

I welcome any Bible-based criticism of the case I've made in this post. There is certainly a lot of Bible to answer, if you hold to replacement theology, and I've only scratched the surface. There are literally entire books about the rebirth and redemption of the children of Israel, and I look forward to a vigorous and spirited exploration of the word of God on this subject.
I honestly scanned through that entire text but correct ne if Im wrong.

You believe that the Israelites with 12 tribes are the 144 000 and that they have to go through trials and tribulations first before being saved.

If that is so I'm a 100% agreeing with you , the Bible never cibtradicts itself and people like to define it in their own way of thinking which makes me question. Do you know Brother Branham?
 






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Thunderian

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I honestly scanned through that entire text but correct ne if Im wrong.

You believe that the Israelites with 12 tribes are the 144 000 and that they have to go through trials and tribulations first before being saved
I believe that during the coming seven-year tribulation, God and the children of Israel will resume their Old Testament relationship. God will allow two thirds of the children of Israel to be killed, but those that remain when the Tribulation is over will all be believers. They will be the True Jews that replacement theologists try and make believers like you and I to be. We are the Church.

If that is so I'm a 100% agreeing with you , the Bible never cibtradicts itself and people like to define it in their own way of thinking which makes me question.
Amen.

Do you know Brother Branham?
If he's the guy I am thinking of -- the faith healer and so-called prophet -- I don't have a good opinion of him.
 






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I believe that during the coming seven-year tribulation, God and the children of Israel will resume their Old Testament relationship. God will allow two thirds of the children of Israel to be killed, but those that remain when the Tribulation is over will all be believers. They will be the True Jews that replacement theologists try and make believers like you and I to be. We are the Church.



Amen.



If he's the guy I am thinking of -- the faith healer and so-called prophet -- I don't have a good opinion of him.
Yes Brother Branham, what is it you have to say about him that's not good
 






Thunderian

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Yes Brother Branham, what is it you have to say about him that's not good
Based on things he's said, and things people have said about him, I'd be very careful in taking anything he's said as truth. There is a site that goes through his statements and prophecies to test them against the word of God. That's all we can do as Christians when it comes to what others say about God, is test what they say against scripture. Here is the site: https://www.provetheclaims.com/

Just reading his Wikipedia entry should set any Christian's alarm bells ringing. He once shared a stage with Jim Jones at a conference Jones put on, but Jones later called him "dishonest". He called himself a prophet, and was supposedly a faith healer, but failed in his prophecies and people he "healed" later died of the thing he supposedly healed them of.

You can do your own research on him. Read the claims against him and decide for yourself, but generally, I stay away from self-proclaimed prophets and alleged faith healers.
 






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False premise 1: God has cast Israel aside because of their sin
It is false.....God never cast away Israel, But he told Israel from the beginning that He would punish them for their disobedience. He states that from the very beginning In Deuteronomy Chapters 29 and 30. If God rejected Israel, why did He say.....give the Gospel to the Jew first and the gentile. In the beginning of Acts, the first Church were all Jewish believers, and many Jewish priest became obedient to the faith (Acts 6:7). The first gentile convert is Cornelius and his family (Acts Chapter 10). Christ calls Saul and ordains him as a minister to the Gentiles (Acts Chapter 9). But, if you study and read the Acts of the Apostles, you will see that Paul ALWAYS preached to the Jew first...usually at their Synagogue before he preached to the gentile. And, if you study thoroughly, you will see the Gospel they preached was, Jesus Christ and The Kingdom of God (Acts 20:22-27) preaching ALL the council of God. In Acts 1:6, the disciples ask Jesus when He will restore the kingdom of Israel, He does not chastise them, but tells them that it was up to the Father when He would restore Israel. The Church will rule with Christ (Jew and Gentile converts) as one new man in the commonwealth of Israel (Eph. 2:11-22)
 






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Rev 12
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus
.

the Pauline epistles effectively killed The Law of Moses. He argued that you cannot be in Christ/The Son nor can you have died with him if you follow the law of Moses.
So how can the woman's offspring follow God's commandments and also believe in Jesus?

God's promise to Israel/jews is about the remnant. God knows who they are and what religion they follow...but they sure as shit aren't Israeli Jews nor are they Christians.
In fact if you read the other part of that prophecy it tells us

The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days



on that, it's also good to take this into consideration
Galatians 4:25
24These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.…


Keep in mind here that what Paul spoke of here, wasn't the 'synagogue of satan' (that came later, since the book of Revelation came after the Pauline epistles, Paul was already dead/martyred by that point). The jews being under the covenent of Mount sinai is about being under duality...and hence the law. The religion of Jesus which connects with the Logos (the universal consciousness) is about Unity of consciousness and hence it is 'sonship' rather than 'slavery'.

The woman fled into the wilderness (arabia) where she is taken care of for 1260 days is interest too.
This links with Revelation 11

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

the 2 witnesses connect with the period of the gentiles. They are christianity and islam.
" But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months."
this is entirely relevant to the Temple Mount and hence the al jami al aqsa (the muslims structure on top of it) 'the outer court'.

42 months=1260 days.
In the bible prophecies a day is like a year many times. Eg the 70 weeks in Daniel 9=490days=490 years (lunar years).
1260 days fulfilled by muslims

muslims conquered Jerusalem in 636AD
until the first crusade in 1099
Muslims regained Jerusalem in 1187
Until muslims lost Jerusalem in 1948
463+761=1224 years. However these are solar years, the prophecy is in lunar years.
1 years = 1.0306812089059 years
1260 years

Revelation 12
6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

the 1260 days here in connection with the wilderness is clearly connected with the 1260 days of the gentiles in Revelation 11..
the wilderness and the temple mount are both relevant to authentic judaism as per what Paul said and it is also obv connected with the islamic religion.

it is absolutely true that islam saved judaism and bloodline jews and lost tribes have mixed into islam as in the authentic remnant IS muslim and is under attack.
That is why for example the US was murdering the pashtun in Afghanistan/pakistan..they are lost tribes of israel.

Afghanistan was attacked by the british, the soviets (bolsheviks=jews remember that) and then the americans. How the fuck isnt that a clear clue? this is mystery babylon and the beast attacking one of the poorest countries on earth, why? if you have any clue about prophecy, read the zoroastrian bahman yast prophecy too, it is very relevant to iran, afghanistan and pakistan.

it isnt just the lost tribes. jews lived in persia for 2500 yrs, you want to bet the bloodline remains in the entire region?
The White Huns/Hepthalites based in central asia, were the Napthali israelite tribe
they ruled from central asia to west india (current pakistan/kashmir).
one dominant theory about their descendants in india is that they're the rajput tribe, who comprise the majority of the Pakistan army.
then you have a lot of theories about the lost tribes in Kashmir (not talking about hindu pandits).
these people, are under persecution of india today...
who's side is israel on?
 






Daciple

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False premise 2: The physical descendants of Israel are able to be replaced spiritually by believers, thus inheriting all the promises God made to Abraham and his seed
Then you must now reject Paul who tells you plainly who the seed of Abraham is and who the recipient of the Promises given in that Chapter and every time God did make a promise to Abraham actually are:

Who are the actual children of Abraham, physical descendants or those in the Faith?

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham
.

I mean Paul is literally quoting from the exact chapter you are using as your proof text, you understand this correct?

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Who is the Seed, was it the physical children of Abraham? The entire Nation of Israel or was it singular, Seed?

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Who was the Promise made according to Scripture? Christ, the singular Seed.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Who are the Children of God? Physical descendants of Abraham? Nope not according to Scripture. Who are the Promises given to? Physical descendants of Abraham? Nope not according to Scripture. It is literally ONLY those who are in Christ that are Children of Abraham, Children of God, Children of the Promise. A persons physical lineage means absolutely nothing at all.

There are 2 people in the World, the Lost who are not the Children of Abraham, who are not going to receive the Promise, who are not the Children of God and the Saved in Christ of which whose lineage means literally nothing. They are not Jew or Greek, Bond or Free, they are all one in Christ.

Israel means nothing anymore, and really all you need to do is take this Scripture and understand that EVERYTHING promised to the Nation of Israel, ALL OF IT, was literally promised to ONLY JESUS, He is the SEED. If there be any OUTSIDE of the SEED then they receive nothing, they get nothing, the mean nothing in light of the Promises and Eternal Salvation.

So yes without a doubt the AntiChrist Nation of Israel is meaningless, and its not Replacement Theology its called fulfillment of Scripture.

Speaking of this, since I was teaching on it last Sunday and it fits perfectly into this discussion I want to show something to you and others who do not think that the fulfillment of the Nation of Israel and everything in it is met in Christ.

From the chapter before the one you quoted for your proof text (which by the way I am actually going to be teaching on this week, heck of a coincidence)

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Here we have Abram paying tithes to Melchizedek, and then we see that Melchizedek blesses him. This is of utmost importance, why? Lets see what Hebrews says about this:

Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him

There is a whole lot to be said about Melchizedek but I have brought out these verses to show something very important concerning him vs Abram. This Scripture tells us that Abram paid tithes to Melchizedek and then Melchizedek blessed him. It also tells us two other very important things, first is that the better is the one that blesses the lesser. In otherwords Melchizedek is better than Abraham.

Here we have a figure that is above and beyond the Father of the Faith, the one who God makes all these Promises to as you pointed out in Gen 15. And here is what we also see, that this figure is actually above the ENTIRE NATION OF ISRAEL, yep Melchizedek is higher ranking than every single person that ever came from Israel (save one). Melchizedek is above Israel, the Nation and the People.

Do you realize who this figure actually is? He is Eternal, has no beginning or end, has a continual Priesthood that goes on forever.

I say all that because the people that came from the line of Abraham Physically all paid tithes to Melchizedek, and if you havent figure it out, we who are Born Again, we are in what Priesthood? Whose lineage do we actually share man?

The Nation of Israel paid Tithes to Born Again Believers, because Melchizedek represent or actually is Jesus Christ.

The Church towers over and above the Nation of Israel and ANYONE who was a believer that was a Physical Descendant of Abraham IS part of the Church. However I already know you dont believe that because you think the Church can only be after Christ but that is not the case. Israel was the representation of God to the World prior to Christ and the Church is the representation of God after Christ, we are ALL in the same Tree.

So either you can say that all Israel is in the Church or you can say that Israel is only comprised of True Believers of the Faith of Abraham (not all Israel is Israel) and the Church is just the True Israel, either way Scripture is clear that the Physical Descent literally means nothing, hence this Nation of Israel of supposed Physical Decendants of Abraham has no relevance to anything.

Either they all get Born Again like me or you or they remain Children of the Devil, just like Jesus called them when He was walking around...

PS:

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Who is the Children of the Promise again?

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The rest of your objections are moot...
 






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@AspiringSoul, I would like to respond, but your post is so long, and you have so much wrong, that we'd be here until judgement day.
it isnt even a lengthy post, that was a pretty basic point i put across.
the lost tribes were scattered east, not west. Jews most def merged into muslim civilisation, arab and persian too. I'm talking bloodline jews who would be muslim in faith today. There were of course jewish christians (just like the apostles), so there you have bloodline jews who merged into the christian world. Whatever became of them? however the prophecy specifically references both the Wilderness and the 1260 days which links to islam more than anything. If you have an alternative view that touches on these reference points, i'm open. i'm not stubborn in that regard.

Rev 12 is too important to ignore. The dragon makes war on the woman and her children.

The other points i made, you don't need to respond to those, they're not too important. i was getting deeper into my points eg there are lost tribes in kashmir, there's the rajput=white huns/hepthalites=napthali tribe connection (this one seems quite far fetched but look at the hepthalite empire, it is well known that the napthali were the white huns..amd they just happened to rule parts of india where the rajput emerged as the ruling class) and then there's the pashtun/pathan.
it may well be that this is entirely irrelevant and that these people have zero connection to the israelites. God knows who they are.
However, i see war against pashtun, i see persecution of kashmiris in the valley. i see iran. israel/zionism which controls the west/beast (aka the whore sitting on the beast) is waging war or supporting persecution of those specific people i brought up.
to me, it fits pretty well.
no sooner did netenyahu meet with modi in india, did we see a false flag attack in india which led to the shut down of kashmir...i have no doubt there's a massacre going on there. it's well documented before the shut down, i cant imagine how bad it is now.

when talking about the pashtun, in history the greeks, brits, russians and americans have made war on them...and it just happens that was the turning point for those powers.
make of this what you will, to me it is interesting.
 






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Thunderian

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it isnt even a lengthy post, that was a pretty basic point i put across.
the lost tribes were scattered east, not west. Jews most def merged into muslim civilisation, arab and persian too. I'm talking bloodline jews who would be muslim in faith today. There were of course jewish christians (just like the apostles), so there you have bloodline jews who merged into the christian world. Whatever became of them? however the prophecy specifically references both the Wilderness and the 1260 days which links to islam more than anything. If you have an alternative view that touches on these reference points, i'm open. i'm not stubborn in that regard.

Rev 12 is too important to ignore. The dragon makes war on the woman and her children.
OK, let's talk about this part, at least.

The scattering of the house of Jacob was foretold, and DNA tests show that they are not only geographically scattered, but biologically as well. God is great, and when he fulfills his word, there is no doubt left that it has been fulfilled. Israel has been divinely scattered.

However, I will not use that as an excuse to doubt God when he says he will regather the children of Israel in the end times. Do we think that God doesn't know who is a child of Israel, and who isn't? He knows, and he says:

And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
Revelation 12 is interesting, though.

The first six verses pack a prophetic punch that, anywhere else in scripture, would be a showstopper, but in Revelation, it's all par for the course.

Verses 1-6 speak of a woman whose symbols (the sun, moon and stars - Genesis 37:9-10, Jeremiah 31:35) tell us she represents Israel. She is in labour with a child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron, which is a reference to Jesus Christ - Psa 2:9, Rev 2:27, Rev 19:15. A great red dragon, who is identified as Satan later in the chapter, waits to devour her child.

In verse 5, however, the child is caught up to Heaven, and to God's throne. The child is Jesus Christ, for no one else fulfills those prophetic words but him, and the woman Is the representation of Israel, because no one else fits. The catching up harpazō is a symbol of the Rapture of the Church, as well as a prophecy of Jesus Christ's ascension (as we are his body, spiritually one flesh with him, and where he goes, we will go, too). In verse 6, the woman flees the wilderness and is protected by God for 1260 days.

People get tripped up by that period of time, for some reason, but there’s no doubt it is the time that is the last half of the 70th week of Daniel. Daniel tells us that in the middle of the seven year period, the so-called antichrist will declare himself to be God (Dan 9:27), and Jesus warns the Jews in Jerusalem that when the antichrist does that, they need to flee immediately (Mat 24:15). The time from when their flight begins to their redemption by Jesus Christ is 1260 days. It has nothing to do with Islam.

Revelation 6 is the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 — the flight of Israel into the wilderness (and eventually to Petra, Jordan), where they are protected by God until they nationally accept him as the Messiah (Zec 12:10, Jer 24:7, Luk 13:35, etc.). When every living child of Israel finally accepts him, Jesus Christ will come to them (read this thread for more about that).

The rest of the chapter fills in more details about Satan's banishment from Heaven, but verse 17 goes like this:

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The “remnant of her seed” are believers who are on the earth during the Tribulation. A new gospel — the everlasting gospel — is in effect, and there are commandments that must be obeyed or salvation will be lost. Believers during the Tribulation will be saved by belief in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and by obedience to God. They will keep the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 






TokiEl

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So yes without a doubt the AntiChrist Nation of Israel is meaningless, and its not Replacement Theology its called fulfillment of Scripture.
You may think the nation of Israel is meaningless... but God in Ezekiel 36-38 don't think so and neither does Jesus in Luke 21:24 and the parable of the budding fig tree is a veiled reference to the restoration of the nation of Israel.

So you are at odds with God on this point.


God promised to restore the nation of Israel and make the jews accept Jesus Christ as God.

Any day now dog...
 






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the everlasting gospel —
The Everlasting Gospel (Rev. 14:6-7) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven having the "Everlasting Gospel" to preach to them that dwell upon the earth, to every nation and tongue and kindred and people. Saying with a loud voice, "fear God," and give glory to Him, For the hour of His Judgment is come; and worship Him that made the heavens and the sea and the fountains of water.
This Everlasting Gospel by the angels of God is a time of judgment upon the world. Everyone by this time will know the gospel, but those who have not believed it will shudder at the presence of the True Gospel, especially of those who have preached another gospel: Catholicism, LDS, JW, CofC and many others. And it will be the doom of Mystery Babylon.
 






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OK, let's talk about this part, at least.

The scattering of the house of Jacob was foretold, and DNA tests show that they are not only geographically scattered, but biologically as well. God is great, and when he fulfills his word, there is no doubt left that it has been fulfilled. Israel has been divinely scattered.

However, I will not use that as an excuse to doubt God when he says he will regather the children of Israel in the end times. Do we think that God doesn't know who is a child of Israel, and who isn't? He knows, and he says:

And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
Revelation 12 is interesting, though.

The first six verses pack a prophetic punch that, anywhere else in scripture, would be a showstopper, but in Revelation, it's all par for the course.

Verses 1-6 speak of a woman whose symbols (the sun, moon and stars - Genesis 37:9-10, Jeremiah 31:35) tell us she represents Israel. She is in labour with a child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron, which is a reference to Jesus Christ - Psa 2:9, Rev 2:27, Rev 19:15. A great red dragon, who is identified as Satan later in the chapter, waits to devour her child.

In verse 5, however, the child is caught up to Heaven, and to God's throne. The child is Jesus Christ, for no one else fulfills those prophetic words but him, and the woman Is the representation of Israel, because no one else fits. The catching up harpazō is a symbol of the Rapture of the Church, as well as a prophecy of Jesus Christ's ascension (as we are his body, spiritually one flesh with him, and where he goes, we will go, too). In verse 6, the woman flees the wilderness and is protected by God for 1260 days.

People get tripped up by that period of time, for some reason, but there’s no doubt it is the time that is the last half of the 70th week of Daniel. Daniel tells us that in the middle of the seven year period, the so-called antichrist will declare himself to be God (Dan 9:27), and Jesus warns the Jews in Jerusalem that when the antichrist does that, they need to flee immediately (Mat 24:15). The time from when their flight begins to their redemption by Jesus Christ is 1260 days. It has nothing to do with Islam.

Revelation 6 is the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 — the flight of Israel into the wilderness (and eventually to Petra, Jordan), where they are protected by God until they nationally accept him as the Messiah (Zec 12:10, Jer 24:7, Luk 13:35, etc.). When every living child of Israel finally accepts him, Jesus Christ will come to them (read this thread for more about that).

The rest of the chapter fills in more details about Satan's banishment from Heaven, but verse 17 goes like this:

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The “remnant of her seed” are believers who are on the earth during the Tribulation. A new gospel — the everlasting gospel — is in effect, and there are commandments that must be obeyed or salvation will be lost. Believers during the Tribulation will be saved by belief in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and by obedience to God. They will keep the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Well, the 10 horns were the 10 emperors from augustus to vespasian who ruled judea and the temple.
the horn who subdued 3 was the year of 4 emperors.
the litle horn was titus.
This all fit into the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9 eg the abomination of desolation was titus, just as the other abomination was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Jesus said 'this generation will not pass away until' etc and that was fulfilled 35 yrs later by Titus's destruction of jerusalem and that temple.
Just the same way if you read daniel 7, it goes from the little horn...right the way to the second coming of Jesus.

The problem is Jesus didnt come. What was revealed after was the book of Revelation...and the feet of iron/clay of Daniel 2 finally make sense within that context.

looking for clues...the first is obviously Jesus said 'no one knows the last hour, not even the Son nor the angels' (because he isnt god lol)...so the idea that Jesus was supposed to come immediately after Titus is negated.
Jesus said 'the days will be shortened' but we have no clue what that means.
the way i see it, just like in the OT when God talked of 'The day of the Lord' that ends up being an entire age.

Also Jesus said 'you will flee to the mountains', not 'you will flee to the wilderness'. Even Ezekiel 38 talks of the people going to the mountains of israel to seek refuge from Gog & Magog.

As far as the timescale, days/weeks/years in relation to the 70 week prophecy goes...1 day was equal to 1 year. The final week leaving 7 years on one hand, yet...can you rationally explain why there's this huge gap between the 69th week and the final week? the truth is you and i don't know..just as Jesus said 'no one knows the last hour except the Father'.
all i do know is the interesting way prophecy has since unfolded in relation to the 70 week prophecy
apply this elsewhere

42 months=1260 days..
a day like a year=1260 years..it fits.

Are you really telling me it isnt just odd that Rev 12 specifically mentions giving the outer court of the temple to the gentiles....'they will trample there for 42 months'..and this clearly does match with the history of islam even accounting within the specific break when christians took the temple mt off muslims from the first crusade? prior to the muslim conquest of jerusalem, the temple mount had no significance to christians.
no matter how much of a christian you wish to be, it would be pretty dumb to act like islam doesnt have a positive significance within future biblical contexts.
the period of the gentiles linking to God's promise to Ismael only adds to the power of God's promise.


now ill respond directly on your view of the Rev 12 prophecy
the woman is sarah, the 12 stars representing the 12 tribes of israel. Her son is Jesus.
good..

And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

this adds up, you know, jews fleeing from roman persecution went to arabia. dont get me wrong though, im still aware of arab persecution of jews post-islam...but im looking at it from the perspective of jews who merged within arab society ie belonging to the bloodline, but not being 'jewish' externally. there were many jewish converts to islam.

petra was occupied by the romans..why would it be diff in a future context?
Mainland arabia wasnt, that's why jews went there..and obv islam came to arabia and muslims ruled the temple mount for 1260 lunar years specifically, as in exactly that number until the creation of israel.

17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
so here we're talking about the Lost tribes ie the rest of her offspring..and as i said, they went EAST.
keep God's commands and believe in Jesus?

they're obv not jewish by bloodline, they're lost tribes..so that rules out messianic jews who believe in Jesus and follow the law of Moses
and they're obv not Christian because 'they keep God's commands'.
christianity is sonship/faith and not about keeping commands. The only time Jesus gave 'commands' was to jews who were also under the law before the crucifixion.


also let's not ignore the fact that christian civilisation IS THE BEAST ie Rome/end times rome/european colonialism headed by the 'whore sitting on the beast'
it seems the synagogue of satan and the beast have conspired to wipe out the real remnant who are muslims.
it makes perfect sense buddy...look at the wars in the middle east and the invasion of afghanistan. it's just a weird dynamic..you have pakistan with a pathan prime minister...you have a country with an army dominated by rajput and pathans who are possibly lost tribes..
you have kashmir both the pak and india side with muslims who again could be lost tribes..
and israel and the US are in truth backing india against them.

it's also fascinating that these people and places featured heavily in zoroastrian messianic prophecy before islam. For example...the bahman yast prophecy...and we at least know zoroastrianism and cyrus the great had some connection with the God..right to surah 18 in the quran were the story of cyrus (which is in isaiah 45) is retold. Those prophecies foretold an end times war of east vs west...and the west was evil...we know the west=the beast system/rome.

personally, i cant imagine a context where i would be consciously aware and choosing to side with the west/israel etc.
However, i do believe in messianic israel, the remnant etc. i dont support 'bloodlines' either and i dont believe it is necessary for the remnant to be muslim or anything specific, they could be doing hoodoo in africa for all i care...however im looking at the contexts laid out in prophecy and applying them to the real world/history. i dont see how prophecies like Rev 12 support the western/roman/colonial/christian and israel side...but i do see how clear cut the mystery babylon/beast connection is to the western/roman/colonial christian and israel side..and it is clear you support that side.
 






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Daciple

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You may think the nation of Israel is meaningless... but God in Ezekiel 36-38 don't think so and neither does Jesus in Luke 21:24 and the parable of the budding fig tree is a veiled reference to the restoration of the nation of Israel.

So you are at odds with God on this point.


God promised to restore the nation of Israel and make the jews accept Jesus Christ as God.

Any day now dog...
I am not at odds with God on this, you only believe this way because you were indoctrinated to believe these things about Israel. As I have mentioned dozens of times on this site which is ignored over and over, until about the 1830's essentially no one in Church History every thought or believed in Israel having any part to do with Eschatology. This is just a plain and simple fact that no one who promotes Zionism cares to address or uphold.

Essentially Zionists claim that the entire 1830 years prior, no one knew how to interpret Prophecy, that literally none of these people, including the Refromationists and those prior to the need of a Reformation, had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them to tell them about Israel. I personally find that an impossibility. What I do find a much more likely scenario, is that there was a certain sect that rose up with a man or possibly a few men that had this ideology ( if you care to know where your Eschatology stems from look up John Nelson Darby) and then those who then and now are seeking a One World Order, clung to this ideology and began to invest millions of dollars into propagating this ideology. So much so that it essentially permeates everything to do with Christianity, so that to the average person, Christian or Non Christian, they all 100% believe that if you say you are a Christian it means you are a Zionist.

It is to me no wonder how much this ideology dominates Christianity, what better block of people to get to support your Anti Christ State than convincing Christians that it is Gods Will to create this State of murder and Anti Christian propaganda. And now if any Christian dare say they dont support Israel in whatever method they act, then a whole mass of Christians want to doubt your Salvation and say you are against God. You know kind of like you just did...

Here is a massive logical problem all Zionist Christians seem to hold, and that is their constant use of accepting Prophecy addressed to Israel, for themselves, while in the same breath saying that Israel is a Separate Entity apart from them and the Church that will be dealt with by God in a different manner. Logically these 2 things can not be the same. Either the Prophecies to Israel are ONLY to Israel and the Church can not claim a single one, or the Prophecies to Israel in light of Christ are NOT actually about the Physical Land Mass or Peoples of the Old Testament. You logically can not have both, so which one is it?

Here is case in point, every Christian I know claims this is 100% about them and the Church and it so happens to come from one of the chapters you are using for Israel:

Ez 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

I have heard this verse shared in peoples testimonies of Salvation, that they were given a new heart and a new spirit, that their heart of stone was taken out and God put a heart of flesh in them. That by the Holy Spirit that dwells in them they are now able to walk in Gods Statutes and keep His Judgements and do them. The Church 100% claims this for itself, but if you believe in Zionism then sorry you can NOT claim this for yourself, this is reserved for the Physical Nation and Peoples of Israel.

So which is it? Either this is ONLY for Israel or Israel in Ezekiel is just a typology of the Church or Believer, you can not be consistent in your logic and claim both. While I never agree with the man, that was a point raised over and over by Koncrete Mind, almost everything a Christian claims as being about them in the Old Testament is actually addressed to Israel and Israel alone. So how do you try and get over this inconsistent logic in your Theology? Cherry Pick? That is all you can do, well some of these are really for Israel and even tho it says Israel it really means the Church over here, like what you must do about the verse I just quoted.

Here is another one:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Again every Christian claims that THEY are part of this New Covenant, they say Jesus is the one that established this Covenant, however the text in the middle of it, before and after ONLY says Israel. God came to make a New Covenant NOT with Gentiles but with Israel. So either the New Covenant is ONLY for Israel, or Israel is a typology of the mass of believers.

On and on I can go, almost every single promise the Church stands upon is presented as ONLY for Israel, so how then can the Church claim these promises if Israel is the only one mentioned in the Old Testament? You have 2 options, either Israel is only and solely about the Physical Nation and People or Israel is a typology, a Representation of the Body of Believers, Old and New Covenant/Testaments.

The only one that actually makes sense, the only one that actually allows me and you as Gentiles to partake in the Promises given to ONLY Israel, is that Israel is NOT a Land Mass, it is the PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN GOD. As I have stated before Paul 100% applies that specific logic to his own writings, as seen here:

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel

Not all Israel is Israel, so who is Israel then? When you figure out that answer apply it to everything and you will understand what I am talking about...

Until then keep supporting the Antichrists who hate you and in your own ideology are going to bring about and worship the AntiChrist, seems like a Good Nation to support and defend no matter what...

Oh by the way, the most popular premises used to support the Antichrist Nation of Modern Israel, is that God Promised them this Land, as tho it is some on going forever thing, as tho God had yet to fulfill this Promise. Here is the thing, if God fulfilled the Promise, then from that point forward EVERYTHING Promised to Abraham concerning the Physical Land Mass and People was done. If you study ALL of the Promises afterwards they were all 100% dependent on Israels Faith afterwards, regarding this Land Mass. So the question is, does this Promise of the Land Mass still stand or has it been fulfilled and thus null and void?

Josh 21:43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Josh 23:14 And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you.

There you go, God fulfilled His Promise to Israel and the Land Mass, everything all of it came to pass. There is literally nothing else that has to happen with the Land Mass and Government of Israel. It has been fulfilled, however the Spiritual Aspect of it all, and thus the TYPOLOGY of Israel is fulfilled in Christ and the Church, period...
 






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