Pre-Advent Judgment.

phipps

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I believe the ten commandment has already been superseded

Mark 12:30-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [a]This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Galatians 5:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Even the sabbath is not a requirement anymore.
The ten commandments will never be superseded for all eternity. You've misinterpreted the verses you've put up. The two love commandments that you posted simply summed up the ten commandments. The first four commandments are about Love of God and the next six are about love for each other. All the ten commandments hang upon these two principles of love. Love for God and love for people. Christ was saying that love is the fulfilling of the law. If one loves Christ supremely with heart, soul, and mind, he will obey the first four commandments that have to do with our duty to God. He will not take God’s name in vain, worship other gods, etc. If one loves his neighbour as himself, he will obey the last six commandments that relate to our duty to our fellow men. He will not be able to steal from his neighbour, lie about him, etc. Love will lead to obeying or fulfilling all the law.

Also Matthew 22:37–40 commands us to love God and to love our neighbours, ending with the words, "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." The scripture you posted above does not replace the ten commandments. You would have to ignore everything that the Bible says about the ten commandments to come to your conclusion.

This response is going to be a bit long because I want to post scripture from the Bible about the ten commandments and there is a lot of it.

Jesus said, “It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail” (Luke 16:17).

The Bible is clear that the law of God cannot be changed. The commandments are revealed principles of God’s holy character and are the very foundation of His kingdom. They will be true as long as God exists.

“My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” (Psalm 89:34).

“All His precepts [commandments] are sure. They stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:7, 8).

We are told in the Bible that sin is the breaking of the law in 1 John 3:4. All throughout the Bible God's people and Jesus make it clear that we have to abide by God's law. Here is some scripture from the Bible to prove that.

“Happy is he who keeps the law” (Proverbs 29:18).

“Keep my commands; for length of days and long life and peace they will add to you” (Proverbs 3:1, 2).

“I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, ‘You shall not covet’ ” (Romans 7:7).

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:4).

“This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

While Jesus was on earth He obeyed the law completely and He is our example according to the Bible. He did not abolish the law but fulfilled it. Instead of doing away with the law, Jesus magnified it. He said in Matthew 5:17-18, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

I won't say too much about the Sabbath because I have a forum on that, but the Sabbath is a requirement because its part of the ten commandments and while Jesus was on earth He obeyed it like all the other commandments. The Bible tells us in James 2:10, “Whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all” The Ten Commandment law guides us into holy living. If we ignore even one of the commandments, we neglect an essential part of the divine blueprint. If only one link of a chain is broken, its entire purpose is undone. The Bible says that when we knowingly break a command of God, we are sinning (James 4:17) because we have refused His will for us. Only those who do His will can enter the kingdom of heaven. Of course, God will forgive anyone who genuinely repents and accepts Christ’s power to change him or her.

Its important to mention that none of us can be saved by keeping the law. Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” Romans 3:20 says, "By the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight” No one can be saved by keeping the law. Salvation comes only through grace, as a free gift of Jesus Christ, and we receive this gift by faith, not by our works. The law serves as a mirror that points out the sin in our lives. Just as a mirror can show you dirt on your face but cannot clean your face, so cleansing and forgiveness from that sin come only through Christ. Many think that doing good works guarantees their salvation even if they ignore keeping the law Hence, they think they are righteous and saved when, in fact, they are sinful and lost. “By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (1 John 2:3).

Jesus also said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15). Those who practice any known sin are really confessing that they do not love God with all their heart, soul, and mind. It goes without saying it is impossible for us to obey the law in our human power alone. “I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me” (Philippians 4:13).

Those who will make it to heaven and eternal life with be those who obey God's will. Revelation 14:12 says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”

Do you see why we'll all judged by the law?
 

Axl888

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The ten commandments will never be superseded for all eternity. You've misinterpreted the verses you've put up. The two love commandments that you posted simply summed up the ten commandments. The first four commandments are about Love of God and the next six are about love for each other. All the ten commandments hang upon these two principles of love. Love for God and love for people. Christ was saying that love is the fulfilling of the law. If one loves Christ supremely with heart, soul, and mind, he will obey the first four commandments that have to do with our duty to God. He will not take God’s name in vain, worship other gods, etc. If one loves his neighbour as himself, he will obey the last six commandments that relate to our duty to our fellow men. He will not be able to steal from his neighbour, lie about him, etc. Love will lead to obeying or fulfilling all the law.

Also Matthew 22:37–40 commands us to love God and to love our neighbours, ending with the words, "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." The scripture you posted above does not replace the ten commandments. You would have to ignore everything that the Bible says about the ten commandments to come to your conclusion.

This response is going to be a bit long because I want to post scripture from the Bible about the ten commandments and there is a lot of it.

Jesus said, “It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail” (Luke 16:17).

The Bible is clear that the law of God cannot be changed. The commandments are revealed principles of God’s holy character and are the very foundation of His kingdom. They will be true as long as God exists.

“My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” (Psalm 89:34).

“All His precepts [commandments] are sure. They stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:7, 8).

We are told in the Bible that sin is the breaking of the law in 1 John 3:4. All throughout the Bible God's people and Jesus make it clear that we have to abide by God's law. Here is some scripture from the Bible to prove that.

“Happy is he who keeps the law” (Proverbs 29:18).

“Keep my commands; for length of days and long life and peace they will add to you” (Proverbs 3:1, 2).

“I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, ‘You shall not covet’ ” (Romans 7:7).

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:4).

“This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

While Jesus was on earth He obeyed the law completely and He is our example according to the Bible. He did not abolish the law but fulfilled it. Instead of doing away with the law, Jesus magnified it. He said in Matthew 5:17-18, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

I won't say too much about the Sabbath because I have a forum on that, but the Sabbath is a requirement because its part of the ten commandments and while Jesus was on earth He obeyed it like all the other commandments. The Bible tells us in James 2:10, “Whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all” The Ten Commandment law guides us into holy living. If we ignore even one of the commandments, we neglect an essential part of the divine blueprint. If only one link of a chain is broken, its entire purpose is undone. The Bible says that when we knowingly break a command of God, we are sinning (James 4:17) because we have refused His will for us. Only those who do His will can enter the kingdom of heaven. Of course, God will forgive anyone who genuinely repents and accepts Christ’s power to change him or her.

Its important to mention that none of us can be saved by keeping the law. Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” Romans 3:20 says, "By the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight” No one can be saved by keeping the law. Salvation comes only through grace, as a free gift of Jesus Christ, and we receive this gift by faith, not by our works. The law serves as a mirror that points out the sin in our lives. Just as a mirror can show you dirt on your face but cannot clean your face, so cleansing and forgiveness from that sin come only through Christ. Many think that doing good works guarantees their salvation even if they ignore keeping the law Hence, they think they are righteous and saved when, in fact, they are sinful and lost. “By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (1 John 2:3).

Jesus also said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15). Those who practice any known sin are really confessing that they do not love God with all their heart, soul, and mind. It goes without saying it is impossible for us to obey the law in our human power alone. “I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me” (Philippians 4:13).

Those who will make it to heaven and eternal life with be those who obey God's will. Revelation 14:12 says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”

Do you see why we'll all judged by the law?
But are Christians required to practice the sabbath?
 

phipps

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But are Christians required to practice the sabbath?
Yes, who else but Christians are required to keep the Sabbath? They've made choices to submit and follow Christ. They've accepted Christ as their personal Saviour plus the Sabbath commandment is part of the ten commandments. Christians are required to keep all the commandments as I've proved to you from the Bible.
 
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Thunderian

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Ok, but it doesn’t make any sense to me. The Great white throne judgement happens with the redeemed already in heaven, right? If it’s the same one in Daniel, wouldn’t Daniel be shown the throng of the redeemed? It seems as though in the scene he beheld, there were no human beings in heaven while court was in session.

Revelation 20 does mention who is on trial, the unredeemed; so when do the redeemed stand trial because they cannot go to heaven until they’ve stood trial & been acquitted (so to speak)?
The redeemed don't stay in Heaven, and some never go there in the first place. Excepting the ones who were killed during the 70th week of Daniel, the redeemed return with Jesus Christ at his second coming.

As for Daniel not being shown the throng of redeemed in his vision, let's look at the verses together.

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

In both verses, God is on the throne, the books are opened, and a great multitude stands before the Lord to be judged. You really think these are two different events?
 

phipps

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I don't see how you can read Revelation 20 and think that, unless you think Jesus Christ doesn't return until after the Millennium.

Do you not understand anything I post at all?

There are three phases of judgement in the Bible. The first one is the pre advent or investigative judgement which judges everyone and takes place in heaven without our presence. Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. That is why when Jesus comes back the second time, He will come with rewards and will know who is saved and who isn't. The saved go to heaven with Him for the millennium and the unsaved dead stay dead, the unsaved who are still alive die leaving Satan on earth in a broken dishevelled earth and imprisoned. The Bible calls the state of the earth when Satan is imprisoned, "the bottomless pit."

The next two phases of judgement are not for determining who is saved and who isn't. Jesus already determined that, hence the saved are with Him and the unsaved aren't. Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." The saved will judge with Christ but not for the benefit of choosing the saved from the unsaved. Revelation 20:4, "I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. ... And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years” 1 Corinthians 6:2, 3, “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? ... Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” They will be judging the lost including Satan and his angels. They obviously won't be judging themselves or the good angels will they? Why will they be judging the lost? This judgment will clear up any questions the saved might have about those who were lost. In the end, they will all see that people are shut out of heaven because they did not really want to live like Jesus or to be with Him. God's righteousness and justice must forever be vindicated before the universe.

The third phase of the judgement will be after the millennium. The Holy city, New Jerusalem comes down from heaven with all the saints and Jesus with them. Revelation 21:2-3, "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." Do you remember I told you in this very forum that is when Jesus' feet will touch earth again, Zechariah 14:1, 4, 5, 10, “Behold, the day of the Lord is coming. ... And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two. ... Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. ... All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem”

This is the third coming and the Bible tells us Satan will be loosed for a while and the unsaved dead will be raised from the dead, Satan will go out to deceive them and they will attack the Holy city. This is in Revelation 20:7-9, "Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them". But before the fire comes down from heaven, there is a judgement specifically for the unsaved. They are already lost but they must understand why they are going to die eternally. Revelation 20:12, "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged by the things which were written in the books, according to their works." When the books are opened, each person will see their life pass before them, and with unmistakable clarity they will see the great mercy they have rejected. They will come to understand the great effort heaven has made on their behalf to do everything possible to save them, and they will see the many times they have spurned the efforts of heaven.They will realise that its their choices the led them to where they are. The Bible says that every knee shall bow to God in the end (Romans 14:11-12, Isaiah 45:22-24).

Then the final judgement will be meted out to the unsaved in Revelation 20:11-15. This is where the great white throne is mentioned and then all the unsaved are thrown into the lake of fire because their names are not found in the Book of Life. That is second death.

I told you about the importance of knowing the sequence of what will happen before and after Christ returns. If you do, it will be easy to connect the dots and everything will be in unison with the Bible. The first judgement in heaven is what determines who is saved and who isn't. The rest of the judgements are for the benefit of us, the saved and unsaved and for the entire universe to vindicate God's character after all Satan's lies for thousands of years.
 
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Karlysymon

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The redeemed don't stay in Heaven, and some never go there in the first place. Excepting the ones who were killed during the 70th week of Daniel, the redeemed return with Jesus Christ at his second coming.

As for Daniel not being shown the throng of redeemed in his vision, let's look at the verses together.


A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.



And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

In both verses, God is on the throne, the books are opened, and a great multitude stands before the Lord to be judged. You really think these are two different events?
Ok, it just seems as though you are saying that the judgement is for one group of people but; the redeemed return with Jesus Christ at his second coming.--------when do these get to stand trial? Because God (justice is the foundation of His throne) has to be fair and let everyone stand trial either to be acquitted or condemned.

Actually, as a Pre-trib believer, doesn't it stand to reason that your belief already presupposes a pre-advent judgement? I mean, the saints cannot be raptured unless a heavenly court convenes, while they are still down here, and judgement is passed for their acquittal, right?
 

Axl888

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Yes, who else but Christians are required to keep the Sabbath? They've made choices to submit and follow Christ. They've accepted Christ as their personal Saviour plus the Sabbath commandment is part of the ten commandments. Christians are required to keep all the commandments as I've proved to you from the Bible.
No, I don't think Christians are obligated to observe the sabbath and be judged for not fulfilling it.

16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. - Colossians 2:16-17

27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. - Mark 2:27
 

phipps

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No, I don't think Christians are obligated to observe the sabbath and be judged for not fulfilling it.

16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. - Colossians 2:16-17

27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. - Mark 2:27
First you said, the Ten commandments had been superseded. I showed you from the Bible that wasn't true. Do you think that somehow God changed His mind and said that we only have to observe nine of the ten commandments as Christians? God gave the Ten commandments to all of mankind. He does not expect one group to observe the Sabbath and expect another group not to. Just because you think Christians aren't obligated to observe the Sabbath doesn't make it right. God will not judge us based on what we think. He will judge us (all mankind) according to the law and He has made it very clear through his word that we must obey all of it.

Again you've misunderstood the verses you've posted. Paul was not talking about disregarding the observance of the Sabbath.

The sabbaths referred to in verse 16 of Colossians 2 are mentioned together with food, drink, and festivals, none of which are mentioned in the Ten Commandments. Paul is stating here that the ceremonial law and all the special sabbaths find their fulfilment in Christ. Paul who you're quoting from Colossians, also states in Ephesians 2:15, “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.” This law of ordinances was a “shadow of things to come”, a symbolic representation of Christ's coming and return. Upon His death, Jesus fulfilled the first step of the sanctuary service—the sacrifice of the lamb to take away the sinner’s guilt.

So it is the ceremonial law written by Moses, the very law that contained the handwriting of ordinances, that was against us. The ritual and ceremony of Moses’ law pointed forward to Christ’s sacrifice. When He died, this law came to an end, but the Ten Commandments (God’s law) “stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:8). The Ten Commandments are never called a "law against us". It was always called the “perfect law of liberty” or even the "royal law" (James 1:25; 2:8-12). This law is also called just and good, pure, righteous, and perfect (Psalm 19:7,8; 119:172; Romans 7:12). I would urge you to learn the difference between ceremonial law and the Ten commandments. Here is a link that can help you.

Also Paul did not contradict himself. He observed the Sabbath himself and he was a Christian.

Acts 17:2, "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,"

Acts18:1,4,11, "After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them."

You've also misunderstood the point Jesus was making about the Sabbath In Mark 2:27. In order to understand, its best we go back a few verses.

Mark 2:23-27, "Now it happened that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain. And the Pharisees said to Him, “Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” But He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?” And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."

When Jesus was on this earth, the Pharisees taught people to keep the Sabbath in an extremely legalistic way. They went so far as to accuse Jesus of breaking the Sabbath! Of course, Jesus never did anything that violates the Sabbath commandment as the Bible tells us. Jesus is God and is the One who created the Sabbath, so He told these religious leaders that the day of rest was created for people to enjoy, not as a burden to be placed upon them.

And note what Jesus says in verse 27, "The Sabbath was made for man". Just to reiterate the point I made in the beginning of this response, the Sabbath was not made for only one sect of people or nation. It was made for man.
 
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phipps

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Close of Probation

“Probation” is a word that does not appear in the Book of Revelation (or anywhere else in the Bible). The legal meaning (a period of time in which someone who has broken the law has to “be good” in order to avoid the punishment he has been sentenced to) does not really describe what God does, but since there is some similarity the term has been used.

The concept is that nations and individuals are given a “probationary” period of time in which they must meet God’s requirements. For example, in Daniel 9 the nation of Judah was given a probationary period of 490 years (“seventy weeks”) to “finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy” (Daniel 9:24).

This period would extend “from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince (Jesus Christ)” (v. 25). They failed to meet the requirements, so at the “end of their probation” Jesus announced, “The kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it” (Matthew 21:43).

Each person’s probationary period ends when he dies; until that time he can believe, repent and be forgiven through the blood of Jesus, and he will be granted eternal life. But if he does not believe and repent by the time he dies he will suffer eternal death. There is no second chance after probation closes (“It is appointed for men to die once, and after this the judgment”, Hebrews 9:27).

However, there is a special case for those who will be alive at the Second Coming of Christ. They will have already been judged, because when Jesus comes “His reward is with Him” (Isaiah 62:11). The “righteous” will “be caught up together with (the dead in Christ) to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The “wicked”, on the other hand, will be killed by His presence when Jesus comes.

Obviously they have already been judged, which means that at some point prior to the Second Coming the judgment of everyone will be completed— this is what is called the “Close of Probation”. This is taught in a number of the parables of Christ, such as the parable of the ten virgins: five of the virgins were not ready for “the bridegroom” (Jesus). “Those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, Assuredly I say to you, I do not know you” (Matthew 25:10-12).

The close of probation is expressed in Revelation with the solemn declaration, “He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still. And behold I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Revelation 22:11,12).

Christ’s mediation for us is symbolized in Revelation by “the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven”, which is “open” allowing us access to Jesus (Revelation 11:19, 15:5). The close of probation is described in Revelation 15:8: “The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple”. This takes place after the Seven Trumpets and before the Seven Last Plagues.

revelationofjesus.net.
 
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Axl888

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I think you are putting to much formalities on how God will judge man, God does not need to investigate us He already know what is in our heart and mind, to sum it up, here are the commandments that I believe God will base His judgment to everyone of us:

1. Faith in Jesus Christ as the son of God and our only savior (not just by works or adhering to the ten commandments)
2. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.
3. Love your neighbor as yourself.

The last 2 commandments above that I mentioned are the fulfillment of the ten commandments because if you truly love the Lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself you can never transgress any of the ten commandments. And again, Christians are not obligated to observed the sabbath, even early Christians gathered and worshiped God in the first day of the week and worked on sabbaths. Thus, the law has been superseded.
 
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phipps

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I think you are putting to much formalities on how God will judge man, God does not need to investigate us He already know what is in our heart and mind, to sum it up, here are the commandments that I believe God will base His judgment to everyone of us:

1. Faith in Jesus Christ as the son of God and our only savior (not just by works or adhering to the ten commandments)
2. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.
3. Love your neighbor as yourself.

The last 2 commandments above that I mentioned are the fulfillment of the ten commandments because if you truly love the Lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself you can never transgress any of the ten commandments. And again, Christians are not obligated to observed the sabbath, even early Christians gathered and worshiped God in the first day of the week and worked on sabbaths. Thus, the law has been superseded.
I think you are putting to much formalities on how God will judge man,
No I'm not. God has told us exactly how He will judge all of us and why, what He will judge us by and what we should to not to end on the wrong side of that judgement. Everything I've told you is backed by God's Word.

God does not need to investigate us He already know what is in our heart and mind, to sum it up, here are the commandments that I believe God will base His judgment to everyone of us:
God's Word tells us there will be a pre judgement in heaven before He returns, The Bible tells us why. Its not because God does not know us and everything about us. So its up to you if you follow God's Word or what you think. But God will do what He said He will do no matter what you or I think. His Word which is available to all man is clear about that.

1. Faith in Jesus Christ as the son of God and our only savior (not just by works or adhering to the ten commandments)
The Bible is clear that neither faith or works on their own are enough to save us. We have to have both faith and Works together.

James 2:14-26
Faith Without Works Is Dead

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I already told you no one gets saved by obeying the Ten commandments. That is just works. We are saved by Grace as the Bible clearly says. I posted, "The law serves as a mirror that points out the sin in our lives. Just as a mirror can show you dirt on your face but cannot clean your face, so cleansing and forgiveness from that sin come only through Christ."

2. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.
If we love the Lord with all our hearts, souls, minds and strength, we will do what He asks of us. We will obey all His commandments and have faith in Him. We will not want to hurt Him. We will do those things willingly because we love our Lord. Its like if you marry someone and you love them. You will not want to do anything to hurt the person you love. And its not burdensome for you to do the right thing by them. Jesus says, "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love." John 15:10. Jesus kept all the commandments not nine out of ten.

3. Love your neighbor as yourself.
You remember I told you, Matthew 22:37–40 commands us to love God and to love our neighbours, ending with the words, "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." The two commandments are a summary of all the Ten commandments. The first four are about God and the last six are about us. So if we love our neighbours as ourselves, we will not kill, steal, commit adultery, covet etc.

The last 2 commandments above that I mentioned are the fulfillment of the ten commandments because if you truly love the Lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself you can never transgress any of the ten commandments.
You do realise that means we can't transgress ALL of the ten commandments not just nine out ten.

And again, Christians are not obligated to observed the sabbath, even early Christians gathered and worshiped God in the first day of the week and worked on sabbaths. Thus, the law has been superseded.
You are wrong about the early Christians. We read about early Christians in the book of Acts and they observed the true Sabbath of God.

Acts 13:42-44, "So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God."

The Gentiles also observed the Sabbath with Paul, and they heard the “word of God." No indication of a change of the Sabbath day is found in the Bible. Besides worshipping in the synagogues, they also "on the sabbath...went out of the city by a river side"

Acts 16:13, "And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there."

Acts 17:2, "Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,"

Acts 18:1,4,11, "Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; and he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks…And he continued there a year and six months teaching the word of God among them." Greeks were Gentiles.

And nothing God writes or says can ever be superseded. Nothing! This is what His Word says.

Isaiah 40:8, "The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”

Malachi 3:6, “For I am the Lord, I do not change;"

Luke 21:33, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

Matthew 5:18, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Revelation 22:19, "and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

God never changes and neither does His Word. He is always right.

Just because the majority of Christians do something doesn't make it right. When it comes to the truth, its always the minority who have it biblically. We are even told in the Bible that very few people will make it to heaven.

Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Luke 13:23-24, "Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

We ought to do what God tells us to do regardless of what the majority of Christians are doing or not.

Revelation 22:14, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

God bless.
 
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Thunderian

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Do you not understand anything I post at all?
Do you? Please answer my questions if you do.

There are three phases of judgement in the Bible. The first one is the pre advent or investigative judgement which judges everyone and takes place in heaven without our presence. Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. That is why when Jesus comes back the second time, He will come with rewards and will know who is saved and who isn't.
Believers who are covered by the shed blood of Jesus Christ do not get judged for their sins. Our sin debt was taken on by Jesus Christ and paid in full when he died for us. We will be judged to determine our rewards, but our salvation has already been determined, and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit against any judgment.

The saved go to heaven with Him for the millennium and the unsaved dead stay dead, the unsaved who are still alive die leaving Satan on earth in a broken dishevelled earth and imprisoned. The Bible calls the state of the earth when Satan is imprisoned, "the bottomless pit."
The Bible says that Satan is bound and sealed into the bottomless pit for a thousand years, so that he can deceive the nations no more. It also says that those who are resurrected at the same time will reign with Jesus Christ.

  1. Who are the resurrected reigning over for the thousand years?
  2. Why does Satan have to be bound to prevent him deceiving the nations, if there are no nations on earth at that time?
  3. If the earth is "the bottomless pit", what bottomless pit is the Bible referring to in Revelation 9, 11 and 17?
The next two phases of judgement are not for determining who is saved and who isn't. Jesus already determined that, hence the saved are with Him and the unsaved aren't. Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." The saved will judge with Christ but not for the benefit of choosing the saved from the unsaved. Revelation 20:4, "I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. ... And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years” 1 Corinthians 6:2, 3, “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? ... Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” They will be judging the lost including Satan and his angels. They obviously won't be judging themselves or the good angels will they? Why will they be judging the lost? This judgment will clear up any questions the saved might have about those who were lost. In the end, they will all see that people are shut out of heaven because they did not really want to live like Jesus or to be with Him. God's righteousness and justice must forever be vindicated before the universe.
Just to make sure I'm following you here.

The first judgment precedes Jesus Christ's pre-millennial flyby. At this flyby, believers who are alive on earth are taken to Heaven, unbelievers who are alive are sent to Hell, and Satan remains in chains on a destroyed and empty earth. All this occurs without Jesus Christ actually being on the earth.

At this point, according to you, the second judgment occurs, which is really just a confirmation of the first judgment. All the lost, as well as Satan and his angels, are judged forever.

The unsaved dead are then returned to Hell, and Satan resumes his lonely confinement on earth, aka The Bottomless Pit.

The third phase of the judgement will be after the millennium. The Holy city, New Jerusalem comes down from heaven with all the saints and Jesus with them. Revelation 21:2-3, "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." Do you remember I told you in this very forum that that is when Jesus' feet will touch earth again? Zechariah 14:1, 4, 5, 10, “Behold, the day of the Lord is coming. ... And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two. ... Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. ... All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem”

This is the third coming and the Bible tells us Satan will be loosed for a while and the unsaved dead will be raised from the dead, Satan will go out to deceive them and they will attack the Holy city. This is in Revelation 20. Revelation 20:7-9 says, "Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them". But before the fire comes down from heaven, there is a judgement specifically for the unsaved. They are already lost but they must understand why they are going to die eternally. Revelation 20:12, "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged by the things which were written in the books, according to their works." When the books are opened, each person will see their life pass before them, and with unmistakable clarity they will see the great mercy they have rejected. They will come to understand the great effort heaven has made on their behalf to do everything possible to save them, and they will see the many times they have spurned the efforts of heaven.They will realise that its their choices the led them to where they are. The Bible says that every knee shall bow to God in the end(Romans 14:11-12, Isaiah 45:22-24).
You are jumping back and forth between Revelation 20 and 21. I understand that Revelation is not a strictly chronological book, but that doesn't mean you can arrange the verses in any way that's pleasing to you. Chapter 21 clearly follows chapter 20.

Revelation 21:1 says, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Then John sees the holy city, the New Jerusalem, come down out of Heaven. The New Jerusalem, if you read the plain words of scripture, comes down to the new earth. It makes sense. Why would God send his new holy city down to an old destroyed earth? Of course he wouldn't.

But the chronology you've presented means that Satan is unloosed, and the unsaved are resurrected, on the new earth, because you have them attacking the New Jerusalem. Does that sound right to you?

Then the final judgement will be meted out to the unsaved in Revelation 20:11-15. This is where the great white throne is mentioned and then all the unsaved are thrown into the lake of fire because their names are not found in the Book of Life. That is second death.
So we've jumped backwards in time from the new earth, to the old one, which is mighty confusing. See if this makes sense to you.

Revelation 21 tells us that at the same time that the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven to the new earth, a voice from Heaven announces that God is now dwelling with men, and that there will be no more death, and no more Hell. But in your timeline, death and hell are still around, because they are cast into the lake of fire at the end of the third judgement.

I told you about the importance of knowing the sequence of whiat will happen before and after Christ returns. If you do, it will be easy to connect the dots and everything will be in unison with the Bible. The first judgement in heaven is what determines who is saved and who isn't. The rest of the judgements are for the benefit of us, the saved and unsaved and for the entire universe to vindicate God's character after all Satan's lies for thousands of years.
There is no scriptural support for your timeline, and it should be a big red flag that you have to add things to scripture and read verses out of natural order to make it work.

Revelation 20 and 21 makes far more sense if you accept the following timeline:

  1. before any judgement or return, Jesus appears in the clouds and gathers his saints from the earth
  2. there is a period during which the wrath of God is poured out on an unbelieving and hard-hearted world
  3. at the end of this period, the Second Advent takes place, where Jesus returns with his saints and destroys every wicked individual on earth, and Satan is bound and imprisoned in the bottomless pit
  4. there is a thousand years of God's perfect rule on earth, assisted by the resurrected saints who returned with him at his second coming
  5. during this millennial reign of Jesus Christ and his saints, the living believers will have repopulated the earth
  6. Satan will be loosed at the end of the millennium, where he will once again deceive the nations and gather them to make war against the throne of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem
  7. Satan and his armies will be defeated
  8. the White Throne Judgement takes place, where all the unbelieving dead of every age will be resurrected and judged, then sent to their eternal home in the lake of fire
  9. Satan and all his angels will also be cast into the lake of fire, along with death and Hell
  10. The old earth passes away, to be replaced by a new, perfect earth, and the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven to be God's dwelling place
 

Thunderian

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Ok, it just seems as though you are saying that the judgement is for one group of people but; the redeemed return with Jesus Christ at his second coming.--------when do these get to stand trial? Because God (justice is the foundation of His throne) has to be fair and let everyone stand trial either to be acquitted or condemned.

Actually, as a Pre-trib believer, doesn't it stand to reason that your belief already presupposes a pre-advent judgement? I mean, the saints cannot be raptured unless a heavenly court convenes, while they are still down here, and judgement is passed for their acquittal, right?
Do you not understand that when we accept Jesus Christ, we are covered with his righteousness, and our sin debt is forever settled? How are believers put on trial when there is no charge against us?

We will never stand trial for our sins. Jesus stood trial in our place. This is Gospel 101.
 

phipps

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Consequences Begin at the Executive Judgment

Summary: God's judgments, such as the seven last plagues, will fall on Earth once probation closes.

Once the pre-advent phase of the judgment has been completed and the pronouncement of judgment has been issued (Revelation 22:11-12), God's judgments will fall upon the earth. This is the executive phase of the judgment, which means the phase where the punishments are set in motion.

The first judgments to fall upon the earth after the close of probation will be the seven last plagues. The seven angels with the seven last plagues will be instructed to pour out their vials on the earth (Revelation 16). The plagues will fall and these judgments will be declared righteous by the angels of God.

"And I heard the angel of the waters saying: ”You are righteous, O Lord, The One who is and who was and who is to be, Because You have judged these things. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink, For it is their just due" (Revelation 16:5-7).

The plagues will fall prior to the coming of Christ. Again we are warned to be prepared. Those that aren't watching the signs of the times and preparing for Christ's return will be caught unawares:

"Behold, I am come as a thief. Blessed is he who watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame " (Revelation 16:15).

Only the righteousness of Christ can shield us from the effects of the plagues:

"He shall cover you with His feathers,
And under His wings you shall take refuge;
His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
You shall not be afraid of the terror by night,
Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness,
Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.
A thousand may fall at your side,
And ten thousand at your right hand;
But it shall not come near you.
Only with your eyes shall you look,
And see the reward of the wicked"
(Psalm 91:4-8).

The plagues will fall while the righteous (those who chose God's way) are still on the earth. Just as when the last seven plagues that fell on Egypt, God’s people will be shielded from the plagues, but not removed from their presence. Christ's prayer is, “Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are...I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one” (John 17:11,15 ).

Christ promises protection, not removal. In Revelation 7 we read, “these are they which came out of the great tribulation” (Revelation 7:14). God's people will pass through the tribulation, but will be delivered out of it in the end.

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book" (Daniel 12:1).
 

Karlysymon

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Do you not understand that when we accept Jesus Christ, we are covered with his righteousness, and our sin debt is forever settled? How are believers put on trial when there is no charge against us?

We will never stand trial for our sins. Jesus stood trial in our place. This is Gospel 101.
I believe my God to be just and fair. If He is to call the wicked to stand trial, why not the righteous? Heck, were i to be among the wicked standing before the white throne, i'd request that both groups (righteous and wicked) be tried with the same laws, for the sake of fairness/justice. I know we see things differently but this is justice we are talking about...

"God, seated on His throne to judge the world, at the same time Judge, Pleader, Expert, and Witness, openeth the Book of Records; it is read, even man's signature [name] being found therein. The great trumpet is sounded; a still small voice is heard; angels shudder, saying, this is the day of judgment. . . .On the Day of Atonement, it is sealed who shall live and who shall die."—"The Day of Atonement," [The Jewish Encyclopedia.]

Some prayers uttered on the Day of Atonement read like this:
"Justify me in the judgment. . . .O silence the accuser, and suffer the advocate to take his place . .. and in consequence of his pleading, declare, I have pardoned. . . . O blot out the transgression of the people that have been saved. . . . He, the Ancient of Days, sits as Judge.... In the book of life . . . may we be sealed by Thee."

If Christ is a High Priest on high, which He is per the Book of Hebrews, it stands to reason that there'll be a "Day of Atonement" in heaven...when it sealed who lives and who dies.
 

phipps

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@Thunderian

Do you? Please answer my questions if you do.
The scripture you've posted is misunderstood here. Either you've forgotten or are ignoring scripture that tells us that we must all face judgement. Righteous and unrighteous alike.

Ecclesiastes 3:17, "I said in my heart, “God shall judge the righteous and the wicked, For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.”

Ecclesiastes 12:14, "For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil."

Acts 17:31, "because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Romans 14:12, "So then each of us shall give account of himself to God."

2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,"

There is plenty more scripture that points out that we will all be judged. No one will be spared judgement. Is the Bible contradicting itself? Or have you misunderstood it?

And again, understanding Jesus' duties as the High Priest in the heavenly temple really helps with this topic. Especially the day of atonement.

The Bible says that Satan is bound and sealed into the bottomless pit for a thousand years, so that he can deceive the nations no more.
Yes it does.

It also says that those who are resurrected at the same time will reign with Jesus Christ.
Yes, the righteous are resurrected and will reign with Christ for a thousand years.

1. Who are the resurrected reigning over for the thousand years?
That is a question for Christ not me, because the Bible doesn't tell us. It just says the righteous will reign with Christ for a thousand years. And after the New heaven and earth are created they will reign with Christ on earth. Hopefully we'll make it to heaven to find out.

2. Why does Satan have to be bound to prevent him deceiving the nations, if there are no nations on earth at that time?
It will be a punishment for him. The state of the earth will be a shambles because when Jesus returns there is going to be earthquakes, islands fleeing, mountains not found in their places, graves opening etc. Revelation 16:18, 20, 21. That is why its called the bottomless pit. The earth will be uninhabitable. Only Satan will be left on this earth to deal with himself for the millennium. See also Jeremiah 4:23–26; Isaiah 24:1, 3, 19, 20; Isaiah 2:21. Satan is bound or tied down because he has no people to deceive. The Lord confines the devil to this earth so he cannot find someone to deceive. Forcing the devil to stay on the earth, alone with his demons for a thousand years with no one to deceive, will be for him the most galling chain ever forged.

3. If the earth is "the bottomless pit", what bottomless pit is the Bible referring to in Revelation 9, 11 and 17?
The word “bottomless pit” comes from the Greek word “abbusos,” where we get our word “abyss,” and it means a desolate empty place, without form, and void, no light, and black; similar to the word “void” in Genesis 1:2. So when the Bible talks about the bottomless pit, its talking about an empty, desolate, black, void place without light. So if a trumpet as in the case of Revelation 9 and 11 or the scarlet woman of Revelation 17, comes from the bottomless pit, it means they are very sinful. Of course they've got to be read within context.

Just to make sure I'm following you here.
The first judgment precedes Jesus Christ's pre-millennial flyby. At this flyby, believers who are alive on earth are taken to Heaven, unbelievers who are alive are sent to Hell, and Satan remains in chains on a destroyed and empty earth. All this occurs without Jesus Christ actually being on the earth.
Yes the first judgement or pre advent judgement precedes Jesus Christ's second advent. The righteous, those who were dead and those that are alive go to heaven with Christ.

But the the unrighteous are not sent to hell. The unrighteous dead stay dead and those that are alive die at Christ's appearing (Isaiah 11:4, Psalm 68:2, Jeremiah 25:33, Jeremiah 4:25, 2Thessalonians 1:7, 8). They don't take part in the first resurrection. The first resurrection will be for the righteous only (Revelation 20:5, 6).

Hell will happen after the 1000 years. The Bible tells us the unrighteous will be raised from the dead, Satan will be loosed from his prison, the New city will come down from heaven and the wicked led by Satan will try to attack the Holy City. Then fire will come down from heaven and consume them and they will die forever. Here is scripture to prove that.

Revelation 20:5, "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

The rest of the dead who do not live again until the thousand years are finished are the unrighteous. The righteous are all alive and are in heaven with Christ, reigning with Him. They were raised in the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:7-9, "Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them."

At this point, according to you, the second judgment occurs, which is really just a confirmation of the first judgment. All the lost, as well as Satan and his angels, are judged forever.
What I posted is according to the Bible, not according to me. The second judgement occurs in heaven with the righteous during the millennium as the Bible says. They are in heaven because the first judgement (that we must all go through), took place and Christ determined who was saved and who wasn't forever. That is why only the righteous are in heaven reigning with Christ and the unsaved aren't. The unrighteous also did not take part in the first resurrection did they? They are doomed eternally. I've shown scripture above. The second judgement cannot be about who is saved and who isn't obviously. Its about the righteous judging the unsaved including evil angels and finding out why they are unsaved (1 Corinthians 6:2, 3). They will see that Christ's judgement was just.

The unsaved dead are then returned to Hell, and Satan resumes his lonely confinement on earth, aka The Bottomless Pit.
The unsaved will not be in hell during the 1000 years as I've explained above. That is not biblical and I have not even suggested it. They will be dead not in hell. Hell will only occur once and that will be after the 1000 years after Satan is loosed, the unrighteous dead have been raised from the dead, and they attack the Holy City. Satan will only be in this desolate earth/bottomless pit once for 1000 years and then he will be thrown into the lake of fire which is hell. Go to my forum, location of hell and you will get more information there.

Revelation 20:9, 10; 21:8, "They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Fire will suddenly come down from heaven upon the wicked and they will all be turned into ashes Malachi 4:3, including the devil and his angels. This fire that destroys sin and sinners is called the second death. There is no resurrection from this death. It is final.

You are jumping back and forth between Revelation 20 and 21. I understand that Revelation is not a strictly chronological book, but that doesn't mean you can arrange the verses in any way that's pleasing to you. Chapter 21 clearly follows chapter 20.
As you say Revelation is not chronological. Also it uses a method of explanation that is called "repeat and enlarge," which means a statement may be made without a lot of details, and then gets repeated again but giving more details. Revelation 21 is an extension of Revelation 20. It just skips all the events of Satan being bound, the rebellion, the white throne judgement and the destruction of Satan and the wicked. It tells us what will happen after sin and the wicked have been destroyed forever. Its the restoration of the earth as it was intended to be before sin.

Revelation 21:1 says, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Then John sees the holy city, the New Jerusalem, come down out of Heaven. The New Jerusalem, if you read the plain words of scripture, comes down to the new earth. It makes sense. Why would God send his new holy city down to an old destroyed earth? Of course he wouldn't.
Then you will have skipped or ignored Revelation 20 which clearly tells us the Holy City gets attacked by Satan and the unsaved.

Revelation 20:9, "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

What city do you think Satan attacks? Is there another beloved city in the Bible with the saints in it that you know of? The Holy City is the same city in Revelation 20:9 as in 21:2.

But the chronology you've presented means that Satan is unloosed, and the unsaved are resurrected, on the new earth, because you have them attacking the New Jerusalem. Does that sound right to you?
No, chronologically Satan is loosed, the unsaved are resurrected, the Holy city comes down to earth that is then attacked by Satan and the wicked, fire rains down from heaven and Satan and all the wicked are thrown in the lake of fire where they are punished and die forever. This is not only based on Revelation 20, its based on what the rest of the Bible says. I've posted so much scripture in my other forums. The New Jerusalem will be right here on earth during the punishment and death of the wicked. It will never go back to heaven. The Holy City doesn't come down twice. Revelation 21 is about the restoration of the earth before sin entered it.

So we've jumped backwards in time from the new earth, to the old one, which is mighty confusing. See if this makes sense to you.
Its not confusing and it makes sense to me because I understand the events as they will happen.

Revelation 21 tells us that at the same time that the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven to the new earth, a voice from Heaven announces that God is now dwelling with men, and that there will be no more death, and no more Hell. But in your timeline, death and hell are still around, because they are cast into the lake of fire at the end of the third judgement.
I've explained this above.

There is no scriptural support for your timeline, and it should be a big red flag that you have to add things to scripture and read verses out of natural order to make it work.
Yes there is. Everything I've posted is supported by scripture.
 
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phipps

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@Thunderian, I've decided to post this in two halves. Its too long.

Revelation 20 and 21 makes far more sense if you accept the following timeline:
1. before any judgement or return, Jesus appears in the clouds and gathers his saints from the earth.
This is not biblical at all. How can there not be a judgement before Jesus returns when He is coming back with rewards?

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works” (Matthew 16:27). Did you see that? Jesus will reward everyone according to their works. How can He do that if there was not a judgement in heaven first? Remember we are all going to be judged as I showed you from scripture above. Good or bad.

Again I suggest you study about Jesus' work as the High Priest in the heavenly temple. You would not say or believe this if you understood that subject. https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/heavenly-temple-sanctuary.5039/post-181032, https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/heavenly-temple-sanctuary.5039/post-181172, https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/heavenly-temple-sanctuary.5039/post-189685.

Are you suggesting Jesus returns before the second time to take the saints with Him? This is bold faced lie and is not supported biblically at all. The Bible tells us Jesus will return the second time in glory. Otherwise His second coming would not be called "the second coming" would it? His second coming comes after the first when He was came to this earth as a baby and lived on this earth for 33 years. If anyone can count, its God and He clearly tells us He will be coming the second time for His people and not before.

2. there is a period during which the wrath of God is poured out on an unbelieving and hard-hearted world
I disagree. When is that and where will the righteous be? Use scripture to make your points please.

3. at the end of this period, the Second Advent takes place, where Jesus returns with his saints and destroys every wicked individual on earth, and Satan is bound and imprisoned in the bottomless pit
The Bible is clear when Jesus returns the second time, He is coming for the saints, not with them.

Jesus will return with His angels the second time and not with the saints. Matthew 25:31,
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

The elect or saints will gathered when Jesus returns. Matthew 24:29-31, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Luke 9:26, "For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels."

John 14:3, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Titus 2:13, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"


Plus 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:51–53, Philippians 3:20, 21.

4. there is a thousand years of God's perfect rule on earth, assisted by the resurrected saints who returned with him at his second coming
No, the Bible doesn't say God is going to rule for 1000 years on earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The saved dead are raised to life and the righteous are caught up into the clouds

John 13:33, 36; 14:2, 3, "Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Jesus takes the righteous to heaven because He has many mansions there. That is the Holy City.

Revelation 20:1–3, "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Satan is bound for 1000 years in the bottomless pit.

Revelation 20:4, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

The saints sit on thrones and they judge and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

Here are some questions for you.

Where does it say in the Bible that God is going to rule on the earth for the 1000 years?

Where in the Bible does it say that God will be on this earth when Satan is bound for 1000 years?

Why would God rule on earth when its desolate and its a bottomless pit and when Satan is bound in it?

Please use scripture to prove your points.

5. during this millennial reign of Jesus Christ and his saints, the living believers will have repopulated the earth
Again no scriptural support, just words. This is also not true. The earth is not going to be repopulated during the millennium. It will be desolate, that is why its called the bottomless pit.

6. Satan will be loosed at the end of the millennium, where he will once again deceive the nations and gather them to make war against the throne of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem
Where have the nations come from then? According to you the the unbelieving dead will be resurrected just before the white throne judgement. So who are the nations Satan lies to?

Is he going to deceive the righteous who you say will be right here on earth and will have repopulated the earth? Where in scripture does it say this?

Doesn't the Bible say in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." ?

The saints will forever be with the Lord yet according to you they will rebel after being saved? You don't make sense.

7. Satan and his armies will be defeated
Yes, Satan will be defeated that's clear but where will the armies come from? Its not the unrighteous according to you. They are still dead in your doctrine.

8. the White Throne Judgement takes place, where all the unbelieving dead of every age will be resurrected and judged, then sent to their eternal home in the lake of fire
False. The Bible never says the that the unbelieving dead are resurrected just before they are judged.


Revelation 20:5, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

We know all the righteous are alive, they are immortal as 1 Corinthians 15:51–55 tells us. So who are the rest of the dead this verse is talking about? And they live after the 1000 years are finished. In the same Chapter in Revelation 20 they along with Satan attack the Holy city. Use scripture to prove your points.

9. Satan and all his angels will also be cast into the lake of fire, along with death and Hell
Satan, his angels and the unrighteous will all be thrown into the lake of fire which is hellfire. I explained this in my forum location of hell what it means to throw death and hell in the lake of fire.
Here is the actual post. Basically it means that death and graves were destroyed in the lake of fire too.

9. The old earth passes away, to be replaced by a new, perfect earth, and the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven to be God's dwelling place
I've already posted above about the New Jerusalem and how it comes down with Christ and the saints and its attacked. I won't post on that again.

But yes after the destruction of Satan, his angels, the unrighteous, death and hell then there is going to be a new heaven and new earth created. The old earth will have been destroyed by the unquenchable fire. That fire will not stop until everything on this earth is completely destroyed ready for the New earth to be created. https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/location-of-hell.5910/post-216181

The New Jerusalem will already be on earth though according to the Bible.


If you intend to answer any of the questions I've asked you, please use scripture from the Bible to prove your points.
 
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Thunderian

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I believe my God to be just and fair. If He is to call the wicked to stand trial, why not the righteous? Heck, were i to be among the wicked standing before the white throne, i'd request that both groups (righteous and wicked) be tried with the same laws, for the sake of fairness/justice. I know we see things differently but this is justice we are talking about...
I guess you don't understand salvation through Jesus Christ. God has removed our sin from us. There is no reason for us to stand trial because there are no charges against us. If you still have sin you need to answer for, you're not saved. The entire point of salvation is that our sin is taken away. Now you say we need to stand trial for it? Do you understand what a pardon is?
 

Axl888

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No I'm not. God has told us exactly how He will judge all of us and why, what He will judge us by and what we should to not to end on the wrong side of that judgement. Everything I've told you is backed by God's Word.



God's Word tells us there will be a pre judgement in heaven before He returns, The Bible tells us why. Its not because God does not know us and everything about us. So its up to you if you follow God's Word or what you think. But God will do what He said He will do no matter what you or I think. His Word which is available to all man is clear about that.



The Bible is clear that neither faith or works on their own are enough to save us. We have to have both faith and Works together.

James 2:14-26
Faith Without Works Is Dead

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I already told you no one gets saved by obeying the Ten commandments. That is just works. We are saved by Grace as the Bible clearly says. I posted, "The law serves as a mirror that points out the sin in our lives. Just as a mirror can show you dirt on your face but cannot clean your face, so cleansing and forgiveness from that sin come only through Christ."



If we love the Lord with all our hearts, souls, minds and strength, we will do what He asks of us. We will obey all His commandments and have faith in Him. We will not want to hurt Him. We will do those things willingly because we love our Lord. Its like if you marry someone and you love them. You will not want to do anything to hurt the person you love. And its not burdensome for you to do the right thing by them. Jesus says, "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love." John 15:10. Jesus kept all the commandments not nine out of ten.



You remember I told you, Matthew 22:37–40 commands us to love God and to love our neighbours, ending with the words, "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." The two commandments are a summary of all the Ten commandments. The first four are about God and the last six are about us. So if we love our neighbours as ourselves, we will not kill, steal, commit adultery, covet etc.



You do realise that means we can't transgress ALL of the ten commandments not just nine out ten.



You are wrong about the early Christians. We read about early Christians in the book of Acts and they observed the true Sabbath of God.

Acts 13:42-44, "So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God."

The Gentiles also observed the Sabbath with Paul, and they heard the “word of God." No indication of a change of the Sabbath day is found in the Bible. Besides worshipping in the synagogues, they also "on the sabbath...went out of the city by a river side"

Acts 16:13, "And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there."

Acts 17:2, "Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,"

Acts 18:1,4,11, "Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; and he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks…And he continued there a year and six months teaching the word of God among them." Greeks were Gentiles.

And nothing God writes or says can ever be superseded. Nothing! This is what His Word says.

Isaiah 40:8, "The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”

Malachi 3:6, “For I am the Lord, I do not change;"

Luke 21:33, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

Matthew 5:18, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Revelation 22:19, "and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

God never changes and neither does His Word. He is always right.

Just because the majority of Christians do something doesn't make it right. When it comes to the truth, its always the minority who have it biblically. We are even told in the Bible that very few people will make it to heaven.

Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Luke 13:23-24, "Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

We ought to do what God tells us to do regardless of what the majority of Christians are doing or not.

Revelation 22:14, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

God bless.
I never said that we will be saved by faith alone, that is why I mentioned 3 essential commandments of the Lord which are faith and works. And as I said, the last two that I mentioned fulfills the ten commandments.

Mark 12:30-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [a]This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Galatians 5:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

By the way, faith will manifest works, when one say he/she have faith, but without works, they are lying to themselves, they do not have faith.

Paul being a jew (as Jesus was), it was customary for them to observe the sabbath, but I believe Paul and Barnabas did not went to the synagogue to observe the sabbath, the main reason they went there was to preach the Gospel unto the Jews (who are gathered during sabbaths), likewise the gentiles did not went to the synagogue to observe the sabbath, they went there to hear Paul preach the Gospel. Again, gentiles/Christians are not obligated to observe the sabbath.
 
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