Pope Francis - Man of Mystery

Todd

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Hmm.. perhaps I'm confusing you with a user named @Todd that I've seen posting on old forums too. Unless you are him, lol. :D
If not.. I apologize for the confusion. Your posts just remind me a lot of his.. and he certainly does have 'Pauline hate'.
To clarify, I don't hate Paul. I just don't care to put him on pedestal like most of Christianity does. Paul was the greatest evangelist of the early church, but he was not one of the 12 apostles that Jesus put in place to establish the true doctrines of Christ. By the third century the teachings of the 12 apostles, that they received directly from Christ, were abandoned in favor of a interpretation of Paul's writings that were blended with many pagan ideas and concepts to slowly evolve into what would now be considered modern mainstream Christian dogma.

Peter never directly rebuked Paul in his writings, though you can easily make a claim that the book of James is a rebuke or rebuttal of some of Paul's writings and Peter and Paul certainly were at odds at times in the book of Acts. Neither did Peter affirm Paul as one of the Apostles of Christ. He warned that though Paul's writings contained much wisdom, they were difficult to understand and that many would be led astray and brought to destruction by the misinterpretation of Paul's writings. I simply believe Peter's warning about Paul's writings applies to most of Christianity, not just those on the fringes of Christianity.

I have absolutely no hatred for the actual historic person that was Paul. However when it comes to his writings, if any intrepretation seems contradictory with the simple face value interpretation of the words of Jesus, I choose not to accept it. Modern mainstream Christian dogma will often resort to all kinds of reasons and arguments why we should embrace a convoluted or confusing interpretation of Paul's writings over a simple interpretation of Jesus' words. I was guilty of doing the same for the first 20+ years of my walk with Christ. So, though I have moved on, I don't judge or condemn any Christian who still holds to Pauline based dogma and doctrine.

I come across much more passionate and confrontational about it here in this forum than I do with the Christians that I interact with in the real world.
 

Todd

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Peter considered Paul's writings to be scripture:

2 Pet 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

So either Peter was mistaken or lying, in which case Peter's writings also can't be trusted, or Peter was telling truth and we can trust that Paul's writings are equally inspired. Misinterpretating or purposefully twisting any scripture is the fault of the reader, not the writers.
Your reading your dogma into that verse. There is no logical objective evidence in that verse to say Peter considered Paul’s writing as the word of God. Peter does not say Paul’s writing is directly from the spirit of God. He specifically states Paul’s writing is from his own God given wisdom.

The Greek word translates in English as “scripture” is “graphe” wich simply means “writing”. The word itself contains zero implication of holiness or scaredness in it.

Also if Peter meant this verse as an endorsement of Paul he likely would have referred to Paul as a fellow “Apostle”. Instead he simply refers to him as a beloved brother. In fact no none but Paul himself makes a case he is an Apostle in the Bible. In fact Paul goes on the defensive quite often trying to make a case for it, indicating there were many who questioned it. Why do we never read of anyone else defending Paul’s Apostleship in the Bible?

Taken at face value Peter’s words are a warning not an endorsement.
 
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Tidal

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To clarify, I don't hate Paul. I just don't care to put him on pedestal like most of Christianity does. Paul was the greatest evangelist of the early church..

Yes, Paul was first and foremost a messenger appointed by God to spread the Word around the eastern mediterranean and lick the early churches into shape, and one thing he insisted on was that people didn't put him or anybody else on a pedestal above Jesus..:)-
Paul said-
"
One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you?" (1 Cor 1:12/13)


 

Todd

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2 Pet 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Peter says two things here:

1. Paul's words are included in with other scriptures.

2. Some people will distort Paul's writings just as they do the rest of scripture. Paul's writings are not unique to being misinterpreted and twisted.
I never said his writings were unique or the only writings to be misinterpreted. You are trying to convince me that Paul’s writings are equivalent to the words of Jesus, no? I’m simply pointing out that 2 Peter 3:15 is in no way an endorsement from Peter that Paul’s writings are the words of God.
 

Todd

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I'm not claiming I can convince you of anything.
But you are trying...or at least trying to convince others that my logical stance is wrong.
I'm just posting what the bible says.
No you are just posting what your dogma says, and then trying to interpret scripture to match it.
There is only one truth, and the truth is equal.
Agreed and God told Moses that he would send one more prophet like him that would speak the words of God directly. If you think that was Paul and not Jesus, then we can end this discussion right now.
If Paul or Peter or anyone isn't presenting the same truth truth as Jesus Christ, they are liars and deceivers.
So by your logic if you aren't presenting the same truth as Jesus then you are a liar or deceiver, which then of course leads to the argument that every Christian denomination except for one must be liar or deceivers as they all teach different truths to some degree.
Either scripture is the truth... or it's not. There aren't varying degrees of truth depending on who is writing the scriptures.
Yeah your argument is falling apart real quick here. Paul even admits in some of writings that he is writing his opinion and not something he received from God. Apparently Paul didn't realize he was writing the Bible or he just doesn't agree with your contention.
 
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Todd

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There isn't any 'other' truth apart from Christ, so anyone truly teaching in His name will not contradict His word.
So which single denomination or sect of Christiainity is teaching the true teaching of Christ? By your contention here, anyone that is teaching something contradictory to that single or sect or denominiation is a liar and deceiver. If every denomination were in agreement there would be no need for denominations and sects would there?

Regarding Paul, he clearly stated when it was his opinion and not God's word, so there is no confusion and nothing to argue.
But that clearly blows apart your argument that every verse in the scripture is the Word of God, because it clearly isn't. If Paul really understood his writings were the word of God, it was mighty presumptious of him to add his own opinion to it. Why do you not hold Paul's writings to the same standard that is presented through out the Bible?

Revelation 22:18-19
Duet 4:2
Proverbs 30:5-6
2 Peter 1:20-21

There is really no sound logical or rational consistency to your arguments here.
 

Todd

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No matter the denomination, true Christian churches will always agree on the major salvational issue: the gospel, and they will follow God's commands. Yes, minor points of disagreement exist, not because the bible isn't true, but because humans are flawed. Either way, it doesn't matter. You are free to believe what you want.
Thank you for conceding that my flawed human perspective has merit, even if you don’t agree with it.
 

Tidal

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I like this verse because it's short, sharp and powerful and reminds us we shouldn't pedestalise denominations and cults or Paul or anybody else..:)
Jesus said:-"You have one teacher, me" (Matt 23:10)

The early Christians soon cottoned on-
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus,the author and finisher of our faith" (Heb 12:2)
"There is no other name under heaven that can save us" (Acts 4:12)

"There is one mediator between God and men- the man Jesus Christ" (1 Tim 2:5)
 
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Todd

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I don't concede your view has merit in regards to the bible and truth, because it doesn't. Denominations disagreeing on minor points still isn't 'ok' and being flawed humans doesn't justify or excuse anyone from misinterpreting or twisting scripture. Those issues should be set right. There is simply nothing more I can say to you on this matter.
There is a lot you can say. You haven't addressed a single logical, rational argument I have made. You simply spout the arguments of your indoctrination to support the dogma you are clinging to. You haven't addressed a single point of the many I have made. For example when you tried to use 2 Peter 3:15, I gave a very detailed, logical, rational argument why 2 Peter 3:15 is not an endorsement of Paul's writings as the word of God. Your only reponse was to claim that Peter was grouping Paul's writings with other scriptures, when the word scripture in the original greek text carries no implication of sacredness of holiness. Even if Paul's writings were the word of God, 2 Peter 3:15 cannot be used as proof it is.

Let me recap all my points you have failed to address and add a couple more:
1. God told Moses he would send a prophet "and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." That prophet was Jesus, not Paul. To suppose that Paul needed to tell us anything beyond what Jesus told us is in direct contradiction of the prophecy in Deut 18:18.
2. Jesus also states he would send the Holy Spirit to remind us of all he spoke in the flesh. No mention of the Holy Spirit coming to teach us everything Jesus failed to teach the disciples or add anything to what Jesus spoke. How could Paul write about what Jesus spoke if he never knew Jesus in the flesh? Peter, James and John, however were direct witnesses and heard the words of Jesus for themselves. Paul specifically points out that he received nothing form Peter, James and John and speaks in a deragatory manner of them. (Galatians 2:6). Strange that the Holy Spirit would not lead Paul to learn about Jesus in the flesh from his own disciples.
2. Peter never called Paul an Apostle and no one in the Bible except Paul himself ever defended his Apostleship. John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. Rev 2:2
3. The book of Revelation refers to the 12 apostles of Jesus Christ. Acts records when Judas was replaced by Matthias. No were is there any mention of a 13th apostle or a prophecy of an Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul was an evangelist not an Apostle. Understand the difference between an Apsotle and Evangelist and you will see why Peter warned specifically about Paul's writings.
4. To anyone who doesn't have a pre-conceived notion or dogma to defend, 2 Peter 3:15 is a warning about Paul's writings and not an endorsement of it as the word of God. This would have also have been the perfect place for Peter to defend Paul's apostleship, but instead only calls him a dear beloved brother.
5. Paul admits more than once that his writing's are his own ideas and thoughts and not commands from God. I listed multiple verses that warn about adding to the word of God. If Paul were truly writing the "word of God" under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he would not have added his own comments or commands.
6. Peter says that Paul wrote with the wisdom that God gave him. The word of God comes from the leading of the Holy Spirit, not the wisdom of man.
 
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Tidal

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Careful Mr. Pope or it's the naughty step for you... :eek:

"Do not make friends with a hot-tempered man, do not associate with one easily angered" (Bible: Proverbs 22:24)

 

Tidal

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"Pope praises sex..as 'divine' pleasures that 'come directly from God'"
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How would he know, seeing as him and his priests don't seem to like girls..:D

 

Tidal

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1- Catholicism is satanic to the core, for a start they pray to dead humans like Mary and the 'saints' even though Jesus said pray only to God, so when they pray they're just firing blanks..:)

2- And truckloads of catholic priests are peedos and women-haters-


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3- And Popey wants mexican drug dealers to have free entry across the border to pump American kids full of drugs, you couldn't make it up..:)

 

Red Sky at Morning

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Former Vatican Ambassador to U.S. Archbishop Vigano accuses Pope Francis and the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy of operating as a "Deep Church" with America's "Deep State" to become the front arm of the 1-World Religion. And this includes orders from top down for America Catholic Bishops and Archbishops in America sharing their goals for the coming 1-World-Order and utilizing Black Lives Matter and Antifa in aiding them.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Pope calls on UN, to be given the greatest authority to "control the world". Says :"The UN can be seen as the premiere development and promotion of the Rule of Law for achieving a Universal Fraternity” - I.e. NWO

#niendankepope
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Thank you @Mr.Anderson for the link. I am posting this up just in case there were those out there who thought I was being suspicious of the Pope just because I am a Protestant!!!


It’s pretty explosive stuff, despite being delivered by a mild elderly gentleman!
 
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