Pope Francis - Man of Mystery

Tidal

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So what Paul wrote is in line with God's teaching or it would not be in the Bible...
..Women can share the gospel with men but not in a public setting.

Paul had to lay down rules to stop some noisy women disrupting the early church services..:)
As for not being allowed to share the gospel in a public setting, this forum is a public setting, so shall we put you and other VC women on ignore?..;)
There are thousands of enlightened women vicars, pastors, ministers, clergy and street preachers today who are happy to disregard Paul and preach in public settings, so who's right, you or them?
And remember, if you go around saying women must "submit to men", that oldfashioned outdated view won't go down at all well with modern women today and will put them off Christianity, and I'm sure satan will be chuckling..
 






phipps

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Paul had to lay down rules to stop some noisy women disrupting the early church services..:)
As for not being allowed to share the gospel in a public setting, this forum is a public setting, so shall we put you and other VC women on ignore?..;)
There are thousands of enlightened women vicars, pastors, ministers, clergy and street preachers today who are happy to disregard Paul and preach in public settings, so who's right, you or them?
And remember, if you go around saying women must "submit to men", that oldfashioned outdated view won't go down at all well with modern women today and will put them off Christianity, and I'm sure satan will be chuckling..
Paul was led by the Holy Spirit and the Bible is God's inspired Word. So all Paul's writings are God's Word to us. If anyone disregards Paul's writings and what the Bible in whole has to say about our roles as women and men, they are rejecting God's counsel. We are not to pick and choose what we agree with from the Word of God and reject what we don't agree with.

Its not about me being right (although I am because I telling you God's truth), its about God being right and He is always right. I'm not the one saying women must submit to men, its the Bible that says so.

Ephesians 5:22-24, "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything."

This is not about me, its about God and His Word which tells us how to live our lives in Christ. How am I putting women off Christianity if the Word of God is saying the exact same thing? Then you're claiming God is putting women off from being Christians aren't you? Do you think its a coincidence that there are no women as ordained leaders in the whole Bible? Do you think God forgot about women and what they are capable of? Paul explains why women are to submit to men.

1Timothy 2:12-15, "And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control."

There are many things in the Bible that we as fallen people will never understand. And some things we'll find hard to do but when God tells us to do something whether we agree with it or not, whether we understand, we know as Christians to trust God completely because we've seen how He transforms our lives and those of others. We also know if we reject God's Word, we will experience unnecessary difficulties. So its up to you whose counsel you'll adhere to. God's or man.
 






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Tidal

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How am I putting women off Christianity if the Word of God is saying the exact same thing?

1Timothy 2:12-15, "And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.."

No, it was Paul who said that, not God or Jesus..:p
No offence honeybun, but what gives you the right to try to teach us men in this forum if Paul says you're supposed to keep your trap shut?
 






phipps

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1Timothy 2:12-15, "And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.."

No, it was Paul who said that, not God or Jesus..:p
No offence honeybun, but what gives you the right to try to teach us men in this forum if Paul says you're supposed to keep your trap shut?
Were most things in the Bible said directly by God? Most things were said by men and women of God through the Holy spirit. God passed His message mostly through His people. And you're playing dumb again. I already explained from a biblical point of view using scripture, this scripture in particular, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man” (1 Timothy 2:12), that Paul did not mean women should keep their traps shut in church. He meant women should not preach in church or teach other men. That is God's message to us all whether you like it or not. Its up to you whether you accept or reject it but I repeat, its not me whose telling you these things, its God. Not Paul either. God. Why? Because "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16).

Why are you having a go at me for telling you the truth of the Bible? Why is the truth of the Bible making you mad at me? Its amazes me how people get angry when told the truth. And I am not your honeybun, don't ever call me that ever again do you understand? Now I'm done discussing this with you. Bye.
 






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Tidal

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..Why are you having a go at me for telling you the truth of the Bible?..Its amazes me how people get angry when told the truth. And I am not your honeybun, don't ever call me that ever again do you understand?..

Sweetheart, you'd better run back to the kitchen if you think Paul says that's where you belong.. :p
As for "the truth of the bible", you're only giving us what you regard as the truth, for example in other threads you've accused me of being a liar and a non-Christian, therefore you've violated these two verses-
Jesus said "Thou shalt not bear false witness" (Matt 19:18 )
"Whoever spreads slander is a fool" (Proverbs 10:18 )


Be careful or you'll end up on here-
 






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elsbet

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Jesus said we should buy swords, shall we do that?
"..and the one without a sword should sell his cloak and buy one" (Luke 22:38)
Since you asked... this is from the abundant commentary on LUKE 22:38

here are two swords
It was a last instance of the stolid literalism by which they had so often vexed our Lord (Matthew 16:6-12). As though He could have been thinking of two miserable swords, such as poor Galilaean pilgrims took to defend themselves from wild beasts or robbers; and as though two would be of any use against a world in arms ! ...​

And he said unto them, It is enough
Not of course meaning that two swords were enough, but sadly declining to enter into the matter any further, and leaving them to meditate on His words. The formula was one sometimes used to waive a subject; comp. 1Ma 2:33. See p. 384.​
“It is a sigh of the God-man over all violent measures meant to further His cause.”​
...This was the verse quoted (perverted, according to Gill's Exposition) by Boniface VIII., in his famous Bull Unam sanctam, to prove his possession of both secular and spiritual power !
 






Stephania

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Steph, I don't hate Paul, and you're wrong in thinking that, so you might be wrong in other things too.. :p
Hmm.. perhaps I'm confusing you with a user named @Todd that I've seen posting on old forums too. Unless you are him, lol. :D
If not.. I apologize for the confusion. Your posts just remind me a lot of his.. and he certainly does have 'Pauline hate'.
 






Stephania

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That's not what he meant at all. Have you read everything that the Bible has to say about marriage? It is God who said women should be submissive to their husbands after Adam and Even sinned in the garden of sin.

Genesis 3:16, "To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.” What I said is exactly what Paul meant and that's because he knew what God said about women submitting to their husbands.
This is completely an invalid understanding and use of scripture. Considering that Paul (and the other Apostles) teach that we are NEW in Christ- the second Adam who never sinned- born of spirit and not of clay-AND NO LONGER UNDER THE CURSE OF THE FIRST ADAM- how do you justify putting Christian women back UNDER the curse IN CHRIST? (1 Corinthians 15:45-49 ) EVE was created as a HELP-MEET- (equal)- not a servant or slave to Adam before the curse- and Christ erases the curse and brings back harmony. You are going 360 degrees backwards in your logic,

How can women save their husbands? Christ saves us all and no one can save anyone. That is not biblical. Women biblically are to be submissive to their husbands as I've posted above. Husbands are to be Christlike. They are to be servant-leaders in the home the same way Jesus came to love, serve, and lead His church. Husbands are to love their families so much so that they can die for their them just as Christ died for us.

"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband" (Ephesians 5:22-33). If mean and women fulfil their roles as outlined in the Bible, we'll serve God better.
Again.. an invalid use of scripture which I already explained in a previous reply - that we are to be into submission to Christ the husbandman and the disciples, apostles and prophets as husbandmen- as well as men- and therefore one. Not in submission to a sinful carnal man outside of scripture still in Adam and not in Christ.

But back to this question: How can women save their husbands?

Am curious.. have you ever asked God for Wisdom as James said and read the Bible.. or do you just pull out clobber passages as a fallen not born again Adam would out of the Bible to bash Christian women and put them back under the curse for your own fleeting mortality and ego?

THIS IS HOW:
1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband.

1 Peter 3:1-6
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct.
Quite obviously- you have a wrong understanding of who the wives are obeying as husbands in this teaching- as it says that their own husbands are not obeying the word and that their own husbands can be saved by their actions following the true husbands of the church- not built of wood or stone but a body of living stones with Christ being the chief corner stone.

Please show me scripture that says that because as far as I know the Bible does not tell us the gender of the Holy Spirit. All I need is biblical proof So then I will know for sure.
Well- firstly- that is not true that the scripture does not tell us the gender of the Holy Spirit. On many levels.. am not sure if your are being facetious here or not on many levels. Because first of all- it does. In the Tanakh/Torah the Holy Spirit is feminine Hebrew. And even personalized as a woman in the Book of Proverbs. In the Greek- the word Pneuma is a neuter noun- Greek does not have male female meanings attached to their words like in Hebrew (or Aramaic). So in the NT- in Greek- the word spirit is an 'It.' However- Constantine and the Romans ignored the Tanakh and Torah and changed the 'it' to a 'he'- and not a 'she'. But you claim that even this scripture in (mis)translation does not even have a gender for the Holy Spirit. How can this be? BTW- 'the Holy Spirit of understanding (Wisdom) that Jesus says will be sent to teach all things at the proper time is clearly a SHE in the Book of Proverbs- as well as the Ruach hovering over the waters in Genesis that was with God during the creation in Hebrew. That is ELOHIM. Our Mother and Father. Whom Adam and Eve were created in the image of. And quick question.. considering that it is physically impossible for 2 males to have a child.. and that God said let US created man and women in OUR image.. how can the Father and the Holy Spirit (as a 'he' in the (mis)translation of the Bible-) have a baby? As far as I know.. that requires a male and female. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyways.. my apologies to all for following certain members going off topic on this thread.. I initially clicked to comment on OP. Then I saw all of this and responded first. I really wanted to respond to OP- and will. It's just that I'm going to need some time to put that together.. because it is a long response.
 






phipps

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This is completely an invalid understanding and use of scripture. Considering that Paul (and the other Apostles) teach that we are NEW in Christ- the second Adam who never sinned- born of spirit and not of clay-AND NO LONGER UNDER THE CURSE OF THE FIRST ADAM- how do you justify putting Christian women back UNDER the curse IN CHRIST? (1 Corinthians 15:45-49 ) EVE was created as a HELP-MEET- (equal)- not a servant or slave to Adam before the curse- and Christ erases the curse and brings back harmony. You are going 360 degrees backwards in your logic,
Did women stop giving birth in pain? Did they stop desiring for their men? What about the other curses to the serpent and man (Genesis 3:14-15, 17-19)? Are they not still valid? Death was part of the curse? Do people stop dying in this world because they accepted Christ as their personal Saviour? The curse of sin will be with us till the end. And when did I say that women are servants and slaves to men? Don't put words in my mouth. Its funny how you think you're the one using logic!

All those curses including death are still here with us and will never end until Jesus returns the second time when death will be swallowed up in victory for the righteous only. Paul himself says so in the next verses (1 Corinthians 15:52-54).

So what does it mean to no longer being under the curse of the first Adam? It means all of us are infected with sin because of Adam's decision in the garden of Eden. Adam was born in a perfect world with no natural tendency to sin but he chose to disobey God and sin contaminated the whole human race. But Jesus was born into this earth when it was already fallen and he was born with natural sinful tendencies of human beings. Yet He overcame sin by being completely submissive to His Father and He showed us that we too can overcome and have victory through Him. Christ’s obedience undid Adam’s disobedience and restored what Adam lost. So, as the whole world fell because of the sin of the first Adam, the whole church can be victorious through the victory of Christ, the second Adam.

Again.. an invalid use of scripture which I already explained in a previous reply - that we are to be into submission to Christ the husbandman and the disciples, apostles and prophets as husbandmen- as well as men- and therefore one. Not in submission to a sinful carnal man outside of scripture still in Adam and not in Christ.
My use of scripture is not invalid at all. What you've done is completely dismiss those verses that clearly say "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body." This is not hard to understand that even a child would understand. As Christians we are not supposed to pick and choose what scripture we agree with then disregard the rest. The whole Bible is God's message to us and it harmonises too. If you disregard certain parts of it, then it doesn't make sense. What you're saying does not make sense.

But back to this question: How can women save their husbands?

Am curious.. have you ever asked God for Wisdom as James said and read the Bible.. or do you just pull out clobber passages as a fallen not born again Adam would out of the Bible to bash Christian women and put them back under the curse for your own fleeting mortality and ego?
Hopefully by the time you get to read thispart, you will have understood that the first Adam is the literal Adam of the garden of Eden and the Second Adam is Christ who redeems us from the first Adam's sin through His death. And yes I have asked God for wisdom and He gives it to me gradually and hopefully will continue to till He comes back the second time.

I'm bashing Christian women by telling them the truth of God's Word? The curse of sin still applies and will do till Christ returns. The only time we read about no suffering on earth will be in the new earth and that will be after Jesus has come back the second time, the wicked have been destroyed forever and this world is recreated to what God intended it to be like before sin. We are told there will be no more death, pain, tears, sorrow, sickness, wars, hunger, thirst etc (Revelation 21:4; Isaiah 33:24; Isaiah 65:23; Revelation 7:16). We are all subject to suffering, death and decay because we live in a fallen world with the devil. Even Christ suffered while He was on earth and it culminated in His death on the cross for us. He promised us that no matter how much suffering we go through in this world, as long as we have Him, He will give us the strength to bear it all.

Do you think telling the truth of God's Word is about my ego? You think I want women to be inferior to men? Then that means you think God wants women to be inferior to men because He is the one that said women are to be submissive to men in marriage and in church. I have made it clear in this forum that women are not inferior to men, they just have different roles. Just as Christ was not inferior to the Father because He submitted to Him. Christ is as important as the Father but He humbled Himself for our sakes. To save us. This is biblical whether you like it or not!

THIS IS HOW:
1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband.
Why don't we read 1 Corinthians 7 from verse 10 to verse 16 to understand what Paul is is saying.

"Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife. But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?"

Paul says in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.”

God does not want His people marrying the unconverted or the unbelieving; He says that relationship will have problems. However if they do marry unbelievers, the believing spouse could bring the unbelieving spouse to Christ but that is not guaranteed. "For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?"

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct.
They may be won, its no guarantee they will. Some are never won because of the hardness of their hearts.

Quite obviously- you have a wrong understanding of who the wives are obeying as husbands in this teaching- as it says that their own husbands are not obeying the word and that their own husbands can be saved by their actions following the true husbands of the church- not built of wood or stone but a body of living stones with Christ being the chief corner stone.
Its you who has completely misunderstood scripture here. In order to come to the conclusion you have come to, you have to disregard a lot of God's Word which you've done. These scriptures do not mean women should not submit men.

Also find out what it means to be submissive according to the Bible because I think that is what is putting you off and making you misunderstand the Bible. Submissiveness according to God does not mean the same thing as it does to us.

Well- firstly- that is not true that the scripture does not tell us the gender of the Holy Spirit. On many levels.. am not sure if your are being facetious here or not on many levels. Because first of all- it does. In the Tanakh/Torah the Holy Spirit is feminine Hebrew. And even personalized as a woman in the Book of Proverbs. In the Greek- the word Pneuma is a neuter noun- Greek does not have male female meanings attached to their words like in Hebrew (or Aramaic). So in the NT- in Greek- the word spirit is an 'It.' However- Constantine and the Romans ignored the Tanakh and Torah and changed the 'it' to a 'he'- and not a 'she'. But you claim that even this scripture in (mis)translation does not even have a gender for the Holy Spirit. How can this be? BTW- 'the Holy Spirit of understanding (Wisdom) that Jesus says will be sent to teach all things at the proper time is clearly a SHE in the Book of Proverbs- as well as the Ruach hovering over the waters in Genesis that was with God during the creation in Hebrew. That is ELOHIM. Our Mother and Father. Whom Adam and Eve were created in the image of. And quick question.. considering that it is physically impossible for 2 males to have a child.. and that God said let US created man and women in OUR image.. how can the Father and the Holy Spirit (as a 'he' in the (mis)translation of the Bible-) have a baby? As far as I know.. that requires a male and female. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Nothing I post about the Bible and God is ever facetious. You still haven't shown me actual scripture that says the Holy Spirit is female. Your rant won't change my mind except for actual scripture.

Anyways.. my apologies to all for following certain members going off topic on this thread.. I initially clicked to comment on OP. Then I saw all of this and responded first. I really wanted to respond to OP- and will. It's just that I'm going to need some time to put that together.. because it is a long response.
That's fine, my response is long too but I couldn't let a falsity about what God intended for men and women continue even though its off topic.
 






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Todd

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Hmm.. perhaps I'm confusing you with a user named @Todd that I've seen posting on old forums too. Unless you are him, lol. :D
If not.. I apologize for the confusion. Your posts just remind me a lot of his.. and he certainly does have 'Pauline hate'.
To clarify, I don't hate Paul. I just don't care to put him on pedestal like most of Christianity does. Paul was the greatest evangelist of the early church, but he was not one of the 12 apostles that Jesus put in place to establish the true doctrines of Christ. By the third century the teachings of the 12 apostles, that they received directly from Christ, were abandoned in favor of a interpretation of Paul's writings that were blended with many pagan ideas and concepts to slowly evolve into what would now be considered modern mainstream Christian dogma.

Peter never directly rebuked Paul in his writings, though you can easily make a claim that the book of James is a rebuke or rebuttal of some of Paul's writings and Peter and Paul certainly were at odds at times in the book of Acts. Neither did Peter affirm Paul as one of the Apostles of Christ. He warned that though Paul's writings contained much wisdom, they were difficult to understand and that many would be led astray and brought to destruction by the misinterpretation of Paul's writings. I simply believe Peter's warning about Paul's writings applies to most of Christianity, not just those on the fringes of Christianity.

I have absolutely no hatred for the actual historic person that was Paul. However when it comes to his writings, if any intrepretation seems contradictory with the simple face value interpretation of the words of Jesus, I choose not to accept it. Modern mainstream Christian dogma will often resort to all kinds of reasons and arguments why we should embrace a convoluted or confusing interpretation of Paul's writings over a simple interpretation of Jesus' words. I was guilty of doing the same for the first 20+ years of my walk with Christ. So, though I have moved on, I don't judge or condemn any Christian who still holds to Pauline based dogma and doctrine.

I come across much more passionate and confrontational about it here in this forum than I do with the Christians that I interact with in the real world.
 






Lurking009

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To clarify, I don't hate Paul. I just don't care to put him on pedestal like most of Christianity does. Paul was the greatest evangelist of the early church, but he was not one of the 12 apostles that Jesus put in place to establish the true doctrines of Christ. By the third century the teachings of the 12 apostles, that they received directly from Christ, were abandoned in favor of a interpretation of Paul's writings that were blended with many pagan ideas and concepts to slowly evolve into what would now be considered modern mainstream Christian dogma.

Peter never directly rebuked Paul in his writings, though you can easily make a claim that the book of James is a rebuke or rebuttal of some of Paul's writings and Peter and Paul certainly were at odds at times in the book of Acts. Neither did Peter affirm Paul as one of the Apostles of Christ. He warned that though Paul's writings contained much wisdom, they were difficult to understand and that many would be led astray and brought to destruction by the misinterpretation of Paul's writings. I simply believe Peter's warning about Paul's writings applies to most of Christianity, not just those on the fringes of Christianity.

I have absolutely no hatred for the actual historic person that was Paul. However when it comes to his writings, if any intrepretation seems contradictory with the simple face value interpretation of the words of Jesus, I choose not to accept it. Modern mainstream Christian dogma will often resort to all kinds of reasons and arguments why we should embrace a convoluted or confusing interpretation of Paul's writings over a simple interpretation of Jesus' words. I was guilty of doing the same for the first 20+ years of my walk with Christ. So, though I have moved on, I don't judge or condemn any Christian who still holds to Pauline based dogma and doctrine.

I come across much more passionate and confrontational about it here in this forum than I do with the Christians that I interact with in the real world.
Peter considered Paul's writings to be scripture:

2 Pet 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

So either Peter was mistaken or lying, in which case Peter's writings also can't be trusted, or Peter was telling truth and we can trust that Paul's writings are equally inspired. Misinterpretating or purposefully twisting any scripture is the fault of the reader, not the writers.
 






Todd

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Peter considered Paul's writings to be scripture:

2 Pet 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

So either Peter was mistaken or lying, in which case Peter's writings also can't be trusted, or Peter was telling truth and we can trust that Paul's writings are equally inspired. Misinterpretating or purposefully twisting any scripture is the fault of the reader, not the writers.
Your reading your dogma into that verse. There is no logical objective evidence in that verse to say Peter considered Paul’s writing as the word of God. Peter does not say Paul’s writing is directly from the spirit of God. He specifically states Paul’s writing is from his own God given wisdom.

The Greek word translates in English as “scripture” is “graphe” wich simply means “writing”. The word itself contains zero implication of holiness or scaredness in it.

Also if Peter meant this verse as an endorsement of Paul he likely would have referred to Paul as a fellow “Apostle”. Instead he simply refers to him as a beloved brother. In fact no none but Paul himself makes a case he is an Apostle in the Bible. In fact Paul goes on the defensive quite often trying to make a case for it, indicating there were many who questioned it. Why do we never read of anyone else defending Paul’s Apostleship in the Bible?

Taken at face value Peter’s words are a warning not an endorsement.
 






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Tidal

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To clarify, I don't hate Paul. I just don't care to put him on pedestal like most of Christianity does. Paul was the greatest evangelist of the early church..

Yes, Paul was first and foremost a messenger appointed by God to spread the Word around the eastern mediterranean and lick the early churches into shape, and one thing he insisted on was that people didn't put him or anybody else on a pedestal above Jesus..:)-
Paul said-
"
One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you?" (1 Cor 1:12/13)


 






Lurking009

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Your reading your dogma into that verse. There is no logical objective evidence in that verse to say Peter considered Paul’s writing as the word of God. Peter does not say Paul’s writing is directly from the spirit of God. He specifically states Paul’s writing is from his own God given wisdom.

The Greek word translates in English as “scripture” is “graphe” wich simply means “writing”. The word itself contains zero implication of holiness or scaredness in it.

Also if Peter meant this verse as an endorsement of Paul he likely would have referred to Paul as a fellow “Apostle”. Instead he simply refers to him as a beloved brother. In fact no none Paul himself makes a case he is an Apostle. In fact Paul goes on the defensive quite often trying to make a case for it, indicating there were many who questioned it. Why do we never read of anyone else defending Paul’s Apostleship in the Bible?

Taken at face value Peter’s words are a warning not an endorsement.
2 Pet 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Peter says two things here:

1. Paul's words are included in with other scriptures.

2. Some people will distort Paul's writings just as they do the rest of scripture. Paul's writings are not unique to being misinterpreted and twisted.
 






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Todd

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2 Pet 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Peter says two things here:

1. Paul's words are included in with other scriptures.

2. Some people will distort Paul's writings just as they do the rest of scripture. Paul's writings are not unique to being misinterpreted and twisted.
I never said his writings were unique or the only writings to be misinterpreted. You are trying to convince me that Paul’s writings are equivalent to the words of Jesus, no? I’m simply pointing out that 2 Peter 3:15 is in no way an endorsement from Peter that Paul’s writings are the words of God.
 






Lurking009

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I never said his writings were unique or the only writings to be misinterpreted. You are trying to convince me that Paul’s writings are equivalent to the words of Jesus, no? I’m simply pointing out that 2 Peter 3:15 is in no way an endorsement from Peter that Paul’s writings are the words of God.
I'm not claiming I can convince you of anything. I'm just posting what the bible says. There is only one truth, and the truth is equal. If Paul or Peter or anyone isn't presenting the same truth truth as Jesus Christ, they are liars and deceivers. Either scripture is the truth... or it's not. There aren't varying degrees of truth depending on who is writing the scriptures.
 






Todd

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I'm not claiming I can convince you of anything.
But you are trying...or at least trying to convince others that my logical stance is wrong.
I'm just posting what the bible says.
No you are just posting what your dogma says, and then trying to interpret scripture to match it.
There is only one truth, and the truth is equal.
Agreed and God told Moses that he would send one more prophet like him that would speak the words of God directly. If you think that was Paul and not Jesus, then we can end this discussion right now.
If Paul or Peter or anyone isn't presenting the same truth truth as Jesus Christ, they are liars and deceivers.
So by your logic if you aren't presenting the same truth as Jesus then you are a liar or deceiver, which then of course leads to the argument that every Christian denomination except for one must be liar or deceivers as they all teach different truths to some degree.
Either scripture is the truth... or it's not. There aren't varying degrees of truth depending on who is writing the scriptures.
Yeah your argument is falling apart real quick here. Paul even admits in some of writings that he is writing his opinion and not something he received from God. Apparently Paul didn't realize he was writing the Bible or he just doesn't agree with your contention.
 






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Lurking009

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But you are trying...or at least trying to convince others that my logical stance is wrong.

No you are just posting what your dogma says, and then trying to interpret scripture to match it.

Agreed and God told Moses that he would send one more prophet like him that would speak the words of God directly. If you think that was Paul and not Jesus, then we can end this discussion right now.

So by your logic if you aren't presenting the same truth as Jesus then you are a liar or deceiver, which then of course leads to the argument that every Christian denomination except for one must be liar or deceivers as they all teach different truths to some degree.

Yeah your argument is falling apart real quick here. Paul even admits in some of writings that he is writing his opinion and not something he received from God. Apparently Paul didn't realize he was writing the Bible or he just doesn't agree with your contention.
There isn't any 'other' truth apart from Christ, so anyone truly teaching in His name will not contradict His word. Regarding Paul, he clearly stated when it was his opinion and not God's word, so there is no confusion and nothing to argue.
 






Todd

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There isn't any 'other' truth apart from Christ, so anyone truly teaching in His name will not contradict His word.
So which single denomination or sect of Christiainity is teaching the true teaching of Christ? By your contention here, anyone that is teaching something contradictory to that single or sect or denominiation is a liar and deceiver. If every denomination were in agreement there would be no need for denominations and sects would there?

Regarding Paul, he clearly stated when it was his opinion and not God's word, so there is no confusion and nothing to argue.
But that clearly blows apart your argument that every verse in the scripture is the Word of God, because it clearly isn't. If Paul really understood his writings were the word of God, it was mighty presumptious of him to add his own opinion to it. Why do you not hold Paul's writings to the same standard that is presented through out the Bible?

Revelation 22:18-19
Duet 4:2
Proverbs 30:5-6
2 Peter 1:20-21

There is really no sound logical or rational consistency to your arguments here.
 






Lurking009

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So which single denomination or sect of Christiainity is teaching the true teaching of Christ? By your contention here, anyone that is teaching something contradictory to that single or sect or denominiation is a liar and deceiver. If every denomination were in agreement there would be no need for denominations and sects would there?


But that clearly blows apart your argument that every verse in the scripture is the Word of God, because it clearly isn't. If Paul really understood his writings were the word of God, it was mighty presumptious of him to add his own opinion to it. Why do you not hold Paul's writings to the same standard that is presented through out the Bible?

Revelation 22:18-19
Duet 4:2
Proverbs 30:5-6
2 Peter 1:20-21

There is really no sound logical or rational consistency to your arguments here.
No matter the denomination, true Christian churches will always agree on the major salvational issue: the gospel, and they will follow God's commands. Yes, minor points of disagreement exist, not because the bible isn't true, but because humans are flawed. Either way, it doesn't matter. You are free to believe what you want.
 






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