Pope Francis - Man of Mystery

Lurking009

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Paul said women are not allowed to teach in church, there's nothing to misunderstand about that..:p
Personally I don't mind if women preach in church so I was hoping you ladies could tell me why exactly Paul said they can't?
I already have posted Paul's reasoning for you several times. You are freely and openly admitting that:

1. You fully understand women are not to teach in church according to the Bible, but...
2. You still reject God's command because you personally think it's ok for women to teach in church.

You have placed your opinion above God. What more is there to say?
 






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Tidal

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I already have posted Paul's reasoning for you several times. You are freely and openly admitting that:
1. You fully understand women are not to teach in church according to the Bible, but...
2. You still reject God's command because you personally think it's ok for women to teach in church.
You have placed your opinion above God. What more is there to say?

Like I said, Paul was only referring to the noisy chatterbox women in the early churches and he had to tell them to shut their traps.. :p
Nowadays there are thousands of enlightened women clergy who know it..:)

Church of England women-
 






phipps

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I know, so you keep saying.
But I'm trying to find out exactly WHY he said women can't teach in church; are women inferior to men or what?
It all began after man sinned. The woman's punishment was the man would rule over her. Genesis 3:16, "To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.” This is something that God established in Eden, and it's still or should still be in effect today. So women cannot be elders or pastors because to be in those positions men have to be ordained. There's no example in the Bible anywhere of God ordaining a woman in the capacity of pastor or elder or in the Old Testament as a priest. God established men to be the servant leaders in their families and in church just as Christ was and is a servant leader. No one is inferior in God's eyes however. We may have different roles in the home and in ministry but no one, no gender, no one's standing in life makes anyone of us inferior in God's eyes.
 






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elsbet

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Exactly... great point, Red.

I want to point this out because it is important--> ref Exodus 32:6
If this was the order in which the children of Israel had proceeded, we must assume they were not in their right minds.

1. drank alcohol
2. stripped themselves naked and​
3. worshiped a golden calf​
That isnt how it happened, though-- it was well-planned.

1. ... they rose early on the next day​
2. offered burnt offerings, and​
3. brought peace offerings; and​
4. the people sat down to eat and drink, and​
5. rose up to play (engage in pagan revelry).​
EXODUS 32:6 NKJV
Wine did not cause this-- if it was, in fact, wine (how does one get wine, wandering in the desert, anyway?)

Based on the interlinear, they could have been drinking anything--> water... or even blood.

But even if it was wine, it doesn't matter-- this was not a spontaneous, drunken orgy that transpired after everyone got loaded.

On the contrary, they made a conscious decision to reject Jehovah; they sacrificed to strange gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands.* That was the great transgression-- the booze (again, questionable) just happened to follow.

* JEREMIAH 1:16
 






phipps

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True, none of those things make anyone Christian. Its about if we have Christ in our hearts. If His Word is written in our hearts. If we love Him and have accepted Him as our personal Saviour, accepted His free gift of salvation and are obedient to Him. When we love Christ we obey Him. We want to please Him. We don't want to hurt Him. The Bible teaches that true love of God doesn’t exist without obedience. Nor can a person be truly obedient without a love and appreciation for God. True love of God and obedience are intertwined. We cannot have one without the other. If we separate them, its death. We shouldn't drink alcohol, cuss and we should be baptised as evidence that we have been saved by Jesus Christ (James 2:20-26) and we love Him..

John 14:23, 24, “Jesus answered ... ‘If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word ... He who does not love Me does not keep My words'. ”

John 15:10, 11, “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love. ... These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.”

1 John 5:3, “This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”
 






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Tidal

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John 14:23, 24, “Jesus answered ... ‘If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word ... He who does not love Me does not keep My words'. ”

Jesus said we should buy swords, shall we do that?
"..and the one without a sword should sell his cloak and buy one" (Luke 22:38)
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Yup, or even one of these..:)-

I suspect Luke 22 indicates that this might be overkill for the purpose of self-defence ;-)

36Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”

38So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”

And He said to them, “It is enough.”
 






phipps

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Jesus said we should buy swords, shall we do that?
"..and the one without a sword should sell his cloak and buy one" (Luke 22:38)
First of all you've quoted the wrong verse. Luke 22:38 says, "So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.” The verse you quoted is verse 36.

If you believe this then you clearly misunderstood Jesus. Jesus does not promote violence at all and it doesn't harmonise with His Word. Either read the whole chapter or a few verses before and after to understand the message Jesus was trying to relay. Also research more scripture about what Jesus said about swords to understand Him. Let scripture explain scripture.
 






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Tidal

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First of all you've quoted the wrong verse. Luke 22:38 says, "So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.” The verse you quoted is verse 36.
Thanks, yes here's the verse again for clarification-
36 "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

I posted it to show the danger of people taking Jesus's words too literally, because gun fanatics might see it as an instruction to arm themselves. As you rightly say, we need to take his words in context to realise he was simply cynically warning of rough times ahead.
Likewise when Paul said women can't speak in church we need to take that in context too, to realise it only applied to noisy chatterbox women in the early churches..:)
 






phipps

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Thanks, yes here's the verse again for clarification-
36 "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

I posted it to show the danger of people taking Jesus's words too literally, because gun fanatics might see it as an instruction to arm themselves. As you rightly say, we need to take his words in context to realise he was simply cynically warning of rough times ahead.
Likewise when Paul said women can't speak in church we need to take that in context too, to realise it only applied to noisy chatterbox women in the early churches..:)
I posted it to show the danger of people taking Jesus's words too literally, because gun fanatics might see it as an instruction to arm themselves. As you rightly say, we need to take his words in context to realise he was simply cynically warning of rough times ahead.
I understand your point now.

Likewise when Paul said women can't speak in church we need to take that in context too, to realise it only applied to noisy chatterbox women in the early churches.
Nope, Paul was not referring to chatterbox women as I've clearly shown. If that was the case, was Paul saying its okay for men to be chatterboxes in church? No one should be a chatterbox in church male or female. We all have to be respectful in church and talk only when there is a reason to. He meant what I said he meant as I proved from 1 Timothy 2:8–15. He said in verse 12, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.” So its not about women being chatterboxes in church and this agrees with Paul’s discussion in 1 Corinthians 11, which shows women participated in prayer and prophecy in the early church. Verses 3-6, "But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered." Women can't teach men or be leaders in church. They can't be ordained as leaders in church biblically.

God created men and women for different roles. If we don't understand that, then we should spend more time reading scripture and asking God to help us understand His purpose in the way He created man instead of trying to fight against the teachings of God’s Word.
 






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TokiEl

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Thanks, yes here's the verse again for clarification-
36 "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

I posted it to show the danger of people taking Jesus's words too literally, because gun fanatics might see it as an instruction to arm themselves.
Well when gangs roam the streets it is smart to arm yourselves. You may have family you want to protect.

You talk as if you have no idea what's coming...
 






Tidal

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Well when gangs roam the streets it is smart to arm yourselves. You may have family you want to protect.
You talk as if you have no idea what's coming...

We Brits are well armed with cricket bats..:)
 






phipps

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Prayer I understand, but what exactly is "prophecy"?
Did women stand up and start preaching to the congregation or what?
"Prophecy" means two things biblically. It means being able to foretell the future and preaching. As I posted in a previous post, there were female prophets in the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. To add to the ones I already named, there were Philip the evangelist's four unmarried daughters who prophesied in Acts 21:8-11. Paul stayed with Philip and his family and was ministered to, but when God wanted to reveal something to Paul prophetically, He did not use any of Philip’s daughters. He used a male prophet from another city to instruct Paul. So women can teach men in a private setting as we are shown with Priscilla and Aquila too. They shared the gospel with Apollos privately (Acts 18:26).
 






Tidal

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So women can teach men in a private setting as we are shown with Priscilla and Aquila too. They shared the gospel with Apollos privately (Acts 18:26).

Thanks, correct me if I'm wrong, but Paul apparently banned women from standing up front in churches and preaching to the congregation.
The big question is WHY would he do that? Didn't he think women were as good at preaching as men?
 






phipps

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Thanks, correct me if I'm wrong, but Paul apparently banned women from standing up front in churches and preaching to the congregation.
The big question is WHY would he do that? Didn't he think women were as good at preaching as men?
Its not about what Paul thought. Nothing in the Bible (which is inspired by God 2 Timothy 3:16) is about what people think. Its God's message to us. The Bible is a manual on how we should live our lives in Christ. God gave us the Bible through the Holy spirit for that purpose and more. So what Paul wrote is in line with God's teaching or it would not be in the Bible.

Its also not about whether women are as good as men. Women can share the gospel with men but not in a public setting. It doesn't mean that women are less capable of teaching than men, it simply means that God created us this way. Paul teaches that women are to submit to the authority of men in the church. But this doesn't mean women are inferior to men. Christ submitted to the God the Father, yet He is equal to the Father in every way. Submission is an act of humility and is about order, not value.

Some people think it is limiting women but then that would mean God is limiting women too since He chose Paul's writing to be part of His holy book. We are all equal with different roles in the church.
 






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