Perfect Preservation of the Quran

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First off, refrain from childishly interpreting this as an Islam-bashing topic. If anything, it's something proponents of perfect preservation should've made peace with a long time ago for their own credibility's sake.

Perfect preservation of the Quran has always been one of the most absurd arguments I've ever heard in defense of any religion's validity and it did the Islamic community more harm than good. The popularity of said premisse itself was an indication of how widely muslims blindly submitted to authority rather than showing independent thought and intellectual integrity.

As expected, with the increasing rational and scientific scrutiny the Quran is now receiving coupled with the archeological discoveries of old manuscripts and the availability of cross-examined results thanks to the internet, it was only a matter of time before the argument would collapse.



 






DesertRose

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Simon Sinek discusses 2 companies Microsoft and Apple that have two different marketing strategies one tries to make products that are needed by everyone and Microsoft just tries to compete with the Apple. They are wholly obsessed with that company. Who do you think comes out on top? Smh you will always be second best with your strategies and the usage of second rate people like Wood. This is my only answer to you since your toxic self is on my ignore list. Thankfully. guidance is in the hands of the Creator not arrogant men who base their religion on conjecture.

This book is protected by the Creator and it matters not what some disbelievers say.

15:9​
Yusuf Ali:
[015:009] We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).​




41:42​
Yusuf Ali:
[041:042] No falsehood can approach it (the Quran) from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise.​
Regarding the Quran:


Claims that the Qur’aan has been distorted


(Response to David Wood)
I could find more responses but really not worth it.
Who wrote the Bible!?

Worry about your own books:
Who wrote the gospel of Mark?
 






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pescatarian09

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If you think the Quran is wrong, why not attack its arguments first, before resorting to attacking its origin? Also, David Wood is not the best man to follow in these matters.

Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the day and night there are signs for people of reason.
Quran 3:190
 






pescatarian09

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The Quran is continually addressed to those who use their intellects to contemplate the signs of God:

He also subjected to you whatever is between the heavens and the earth; all from Himself. Surely there are signs in this for those who think.
Quran 45:13
 






DesertRose

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If you think the Quran is wrong, why not attack its arguments first, before resorting to attacking its origin? Also, David Wood is not the best man to follow in these matters.

Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the day and night there are signs for people of reason.
Quran 3:190
Bingo as infinityloop put it:
This we all know would never be the case with a person like David Wood, who is just an entertainer by-definition. He doesn't have the knowledge, nor the personality to engage with any serious philosophy. David Wood has also never put out an academic paper, nor would his very slim level of topical engagement, research and analysis be well-receipted in the academic world.
Look how well good souls respond to the Quran!!!!
listening to an emotional Quran recitation

 






pescatarian09

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It was We who created man and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.
Quran 50:16
 






pescatarian09

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Zaid bin Thabit, one of the chief scribes, relates: “I used to write down the revelation for the blessed Prophet - may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. When the revelation came to him he felt intense heat and drops of perspiration used to roll down his body like pearls. When this state was over I used to fetch a shoulder bone or a piece of something else. He used to go on dictating and I used to write it down. When I finished writing the sheer weight of transcription gave me the feeling that my leg would break and I would not be able to walk anymore. Anyhow when I finished writing, he would say, ‘Read!’ and I would read it back to him. If there was an omission or error he used to correct it and then let it be brought before the people.”

[Ibn Kathir, Abul-Fida, Imad ad-Deen, Fada'il al-Qur'an, (Cairo: Maktaba' Ibn Taymiyya. 1416 AH)]
_____________________
Towards the end of Prophet's life writing Qur'an had become so widespread that people wondered as how knowledge can be taken away from them while they have the masahif.

At the eve of the last sermon when the Messenger of Allah asked people to acquire knowledge “before it is taken away”, a Bedouin asked;

“O Prophet of Allah! How knowledge can be taken away from us while masahif are with us and we learn their contents and teach it to our women, children and servants?”

Another observation to be made here is that it was a Bedouin who said “masahif are with us” showing that the practice of writing Qur'an had well spread even outside Madina and with people other than Muhajirin (Emigrants) and Ansar (Helpers) were also used to it.
[at-Tabarani, Abul-Qasim Suleman bin Ahmad, Mu'jam al-Awst (Dar al-Haramain, Cairo, 1415 AH)]

_____________________
(Mushaf means 'collection of pages'; masahif is the plural of mushaf)
 






Red Sky at Morning

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I was surprised when I first encountered this line of argument. Rather than just looking at what is said, the notion of preservation seems to have been used to simultaneously bash and delegitimise the Bible whilst propping up the Qur’an. Put simplistically, the case for the Biblical corruption charge has been greatly over-stated and the case for the perfect preservation of Muhammad’s writings made despite evidence to the contrary.

I personally think the argument of “Quranic perfection” and “Biblical corruption“ should be dropped by Muslims (though I do understand why they won’t be). People would do better to move on to comparing on contrasting what is actually taught by the respective religions.
 






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What a load of nonsense. The Qur'an is not a physical book and Muslims have never claimed manuscripts to be impeccable, this is common knowledge in the Muslim world. The Qur'an is transmitted orally, manuscript tradition is just another piece of evidence that is subordinate to it's primary ontic identity as the WORD (aka speech) of God almighty.
The Qur'an, as the direct speech of God, is not limited to it's written manuscripts like the New Testament. This is one big difference between the two from a purely textual view. The New Testament is written composition and is therefore limited to it's composition (which is a massive roadblock and ultimately the cause of it's own demise). The Qur'an on the other hand, comes from many streams of transmission and has a unified whole. It even has an emergency backup (Qira'at) established during the Prophet's own lifetime, in case of complication.

A brother did a decent response here:




I will add, Artful Revealer, I am very surprised that a supposed self-professed "Gnostic" Marcionite follows trolls like David Wood. I guess most people bury their heads at some point.
 






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And there are the children as expected. You should proceed with caution instead of jumping into an obviously set trap. I could've posted the video of Dr. Brubaker himself, but now I can see which ones are close-minded and intellectually dishonest when it comes to their belief system, with built-in reluctance to at least watch the evidence and instant readiness to go for ad hominems just because ...David Wooood!

Well, here it is then:



Smh you will always be second best with your strategies and the usage of second rate people like Wood. This is my only answer to you since your toxic self is on my ignore list. Thankfully. guidance is in the hands of the Creator not arrogant men who base their religion on conjecture.
"Can't / won't argue the argument so I'll insult the poster, evade the issue and deflect towards Christianity." Pathetic.

If you think the Quran is wrong, why not attack its arguments first, before resorting to attacking its origin? Also, David Wood is not the best man to follow in these matters.
This thread is about the argument that the Quran has been perfectly preserved. It's not about Islam's origins.

What a load of nonsense.
What is? Perfect preservation? I agree.

The Qur'an is not a physical book and Muslims have never claimed manuscripts to be impeccable, this is common knowledge in the Muslim world.
You're one of those professional sophists, I take it. Muslims have argued that the book has been guarded from corruption forever. "Not a word - nay, not a dot has been changed!" Pretending otherwise says alot about your sincerity.

The Qur'an is transmitted orally, manuscript tradition is just another piece of evidence that is subordinate to it's primary ontic identity as the WORD (aka speech) of God almighty.
It's a ridiculously stupid argument. If the oral transmission trumps written transmission, then Uthman's decision to standardize the Quran in written form in reaction to the increasingly large divergences and the inability to keep Quranic revelation authentic, was the dumbest decision a muslim ever made.

You respond with a video that doesn't even deal with the demonstration of Dr. Brubaker. What's the point of that?


This thread is about the perfect preservation of the Quran, an attack on Islam's undoubtedly most deluded and discrediting argument, not Islam in its entirety. So therefore I will ask you directly:

@DesertRose
@pescatarian09
@Infinityloop

Do you still believe the Quran has been perfectly preserved?

If it's no, then why are you part of the backlash?

If it's yes, you'll get a special mention in the OP.
 






seekinheart

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And there are the children as expected. You should proceed with caution instead of jumping into an obviously set trap. I could've posted the video of Dr. Brubaker himself, but now I can see which ones are close-minded and intellectually dishonest when it comes to their belief system, with built-in reluctance to at least watch the evidence and instant readiness to go for ad hominems just because ...David Wooood!

Well, here it is then:



"Can't / won't argue the argument so I'll insult the poster, evade the issue and deflect towards Christianity." Pathetic.

This thread is about the argument that the Quran has been perfectly preserved. It's not about Islam's origins.

What is? Perfect preservation? I agree.

You're one of those professional sophists, I take it. Muslims have argued that the book has been guarded from corruption forever. "Not a word - nay, not a dot has been changed!" Pretending otherwise says alot about your sincerity.

It's a ridiculously stupid argument. If the oral transmission trumps written transmission, then Uthman's decision to standardize the Quran in written form in reaction to the increasingly large divergences and the inability to keep Quranic revelation authentic, was the dumbest decision a muslim ever made.

You respond with a video that doesn't even deal with the demonstration of Dr. Brubaker. What's the point of that?


This thread is about the perfect preservation of the Quran, an attack on Islam's undoubtedly most deluded and discrediting argument, not Islam in its entirety. So therefore I will ask you directly:

@DesertRose
@pescatarian09
@Infinityloop

Do you still believe the Quran has been perfectly preserved?

If it's no, then why are you part of the backlash?

If it's yes, you'll get a special mention in the OP.
check and mate
 






pescatarian09

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^ Joseph E. B. Lumbard of Brandeis University has written in the Huffington Post in support of the dates proposed by the Birmingham scholars. Lumbard notes that the discovery of a Quranic text that may be confirmed by radiocarbon dating as having been written in the first decades of the Islamic era, while presenting a text substantially in conformity with that traditionally accepted, reinforces a growing academic consensus that many Western sceptical and 'revisionist' theories of Quranic origins are now untenable in the light of empirical findings – whereas, on the other hand, counterpart accounts of Quranic origins within classical Islamic traditions stand up well in the light of ongoing scientific discoveries.[27]

We have without doubt sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
Quran 15:9
 






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DesertRose

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Qur'an Mistakes Or Your Mistakes? Br Farid on Daniel Brubakers Book
Caption under the video:
Br Farid gives a glimpse of what is yet to come in response to Daniel Alan Brubakers pathetic book "Corrections in Early Qur'an Manuscripts" which is being perpetuated by DCCi ministries and various other christian missionaries. A full refutation by Br Farid on this desperate attempt by Daniel Alan Brubaker to come soon insha'Allah.

A Review of Dan Brubaker's Book, 'Corrections in Quran's Manuscripts' - Dr Shabir Ally

Edit: As has been pointed out by @Infinityloop the Quraan is a recitation so it is preserved as such.
Here is a salient point made in the document posted above called a history of the noble Quran:
"The longest list of differences the anti-Islam disbelievers ever produced was less than 20!
And there is not a single additional Word between them. The differences are in spelling of words and vowels."
@Infinityloop السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته greetings!
 






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pescatarian09

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^ Joseph E. B. Lumbard of Brandeis University has written in the Huffington Post in support of the dates proposed by the Birmingham scholars. Lumbard notes that the discovery of a Quranic text that may be confirmed by radiocarbon dating as having been written in the first decades of the Islamic era, while presenting a text substantially in conformity with that traditionally accepted, reinforces a growing academic consensus that many Western sceptical and 'revisionist' theories of Quranic origins are now untenable in the light of empirical findings – whereas, on the other hand, counterpart accounts of Quranic origins within classical Islamic traditions stand up well in the light of ongoing scientific discoveries.[27]

We have without doubt sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
Quran 15:9
@ArtfulRevealer
I believe that the Quran speaks for itself. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that it is from God.
The Quran is a rhetorical miracle, that has stood the test of time. Perhaps if you were to read it, you might be able to understand why that is.

Will they not ponder on the Quran? Had it not come from someone other than God, they would have certainly found therein many contradictions.
(Quran 4:82)
And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a sura or the like thereof, and call your witnesses beside Allah if ye are truthful.
(Quran 2:23)
Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an they could not produce the like thereof even if they backed up each other with help and support.
(Quran 17:88)
This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, containing guidance for those who are mindful of God,
(2:2)

“I have revealed to you a Book that cannot be washed away with water.”
 






Kung Fu

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Great, now post the video where Bart says that Jesus being crucified is as certain as a historical fact can be, which contradicts the Quran.
Except it doesn't because if you read the Quran you know it states that "it appeared to them that he was crucified". For the people who witnessed the crucifixion it really did appear that he was crucified. Why don't you actually read the Quran for yourself before you throw out assumptions.

Nice try though you little you :)
 






seekinheart

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Except it doesn't because if you read the Quran you know it states that "it appeared to them that he was crucified". For the people who witnessed the crucifixion it really did appear that he was crucified. Why don't you actually read the Quran for yourself before you throw out assumptions.

Nice try though you little you :)
that just proves the qu'ran isnt historically viable further.

The nature of a fact is, its factual. Not a deception.
 






Kung Fu

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that just proves the qu'ran isnt historically viable further.

The nature of a fact is, its factual. Not a deception.
Lol. Small brain syndrome you must have.

Is it factual if it never really happened? For the longest time Aristotle thought the Earth revolved around the sun because his eyes saw the sun move from the east to the west.

Long story short the Quran is actually clearing the matter up for you because God is the only ultimate truth.
 






seekinheart

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Lol. Small brain syndrome you must have.

Is it factual if it never really happened? For the longest time Aristotle thought the Earth revolved around the sun because his eyes saw the sun move from the east to the west.

Long story short the Quran is actually clearing the matter up for you because God is the only ultimate truth.
that makes 0 sense and u know it.

Its actually probably the weakest link in the QuRan, that Jesus somehow miraculously didnt get crucified when ALL the evidence points to that he did. See theres a difference between the resurrection and Jesus not being crucified. Theres evidence for his resurrection barring Muhammads creative writing skills, there is no evidence he wasnt cruciified.
 






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