Parenting

Haich

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
6,650
I always try to approach these topics with sensitivity because i could be faced with a situation where my child falls victim to addiction

Pushing and condemning just makes the situation worse, they need help and encouragement
 

justjess

Superstar
Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
11,510
As i would love to know how you qualift yourself as an addict and had such an extremely easy time quitting.

The examples ive scattered throughout my posts are all real people. Further then that i dont know that i care to continue sharing my experiences with people who do not return in kind.

@umphreak there is a thin line between helping and enabling. I personally went into the field - chikdren and families but u end up encountering everything - simply because i saw a need, there were a number of people i was very close to when younger who had really fucked up lives and really fucked up outcomes and i loved them and wanted to help prevent the same thing for someone else as much as i could. Seemed a much nobler use of my time energy and intellect then making some corporation or bank money.
 

Devine

Star
Joined
Mar 20, 2017
Messages
3,501
fair enough then. but you can't just go around telling people you don't even know that they are not "real" addicts that is just SO rude!
 

justjess

Superstar
Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
11,510
Look I had a drug problem back in high school. It was pretty bad, I definately considered myself an addict. But a couple awful things happened in rapid succession and I said enough is enough, took three damn jobs enrolled in college courses and locked myself in my damn house any free time i had for a year. For a long time it felt like if it was so easy for me no one else should have such a hard time.. and then i started working with these people, watching their struggles from a different perspective, saw my own husband who definately isn't weaker then me fail to complete a dozen rehabs in a year despite being literally desperate. And it occurred to me that basing what others should be able to do on what I was able to do wasn't wise, I wasn't an addict even though I thought I was. I was just someone who abused drugs. There's a difference. My brain chemistry wasn't so completely turned around like there's is. Probably if I'd continued a couple years longer it would have been a different story.
 

rainerann

Star
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Messages
4,550
I would like to point out that there is a reason that programs like AA and NA are so effective and it is entirely because most people don't understand what it is like to be an addict like another addict.

I went to both programs long, long time ago and it was really nice to be with other people who knew why I liked using drugs and didn't give me a weird look if I told them I used to use them. That was one of the hardest parts of recovery is feeling like you can't tell anyone what you are going through because they will use it to judge your behavior with.

No longer is a funny quirk just a funny quirk. A funny quirk might be reminiscent of being a drug addict and make people start acting funny around you like they don't know what to do with themselves. Should they feel sorry for you? Should they not feel sorry for you? It gets to the point where you just need to either use drugs again or find someone who can understand why you would want to.
 

justjess

Superstar
Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
11,510
Unfortunately statistically they aren't really all that effective. :(

They do work wonders for some people though. And the general idea of being around people who understand definately rings true across the board.

They never worked for my husband. Hearing everyone talking about their adventures just made him want to use. I had a similar problem with it and just avoided people all together for a very long time until I felt strong enough. My cousin on the other hand got really into it and turned her life completely around, she credits NA for that.. she's a master colorist now (so expensive even with family discount I can't afford her) and a competitive body builder. Been clean for years and still goes to meetings all the time.

Different things work for different people. For some people it seems like literally nothing works. It's an extremely frustrating disease and it's easy to be jaded about the topic.
 

rainerann

Star
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Messages
4,550
What I found was that it isn't always effective because it is such a narrow scope. There is only so long that you can keep calling yourself an addict before you will start using again. That is why you will see people with the first two years in that setting for the most part.

Between two to five years, about 70% will relapse because there issues are no longer related primarily to abstaining from drug use and are more likely to be related to difficulty finding new hobbies and creating an identity that does not include using drugs or identifying yourself as a drug user.

I think many people are unable to make this jump into a world where they can have activities that don't involve drugs or talking about them because AA and NA is not really centered around providing these opportunities. It is centered around bringing people together for a common goal of identifying as addicts in order to provide support during the early stages of recovery.

This is why you will only see a handful of people with over 5 years clean in NA meetings because most of them have either relapsed at this point or found that they were able to develop a life that didn't require actively thinking about their drug use anymore.

I think another issue with this sort of setting is the perspective towards relapse. The impression that relapse leads directly back to the place you started, when it doesn't have to be that way. We don't have to go to back there if we have spent any length of time learning that we have other choices.

So I agree it isn't a perfect solution, but it definitely helps to have people who understand what your going through in the initial phases of recovery. I started getting clean when I was still 17. I used meth and other drugs. I didn't feel able to socialize unless I was high. I relapsed a couple time here and there before turning 21 and have been clean ever since of meth, which is a very damaging substance. So that is about 17 years of recovery. I actually even count my recovery date from the age I started and not the age of my last relapse. I don't feel that my recovery process should be defined that way. I worked very hard between 17 to 21. I should get some credit for that too.

Sometimes people get caught up in rules like that, but at a certain point, you realize that it is okay to be creative. Being clean is a gift to myself. It doesn't have to be defined according to a program even though I won't deny this was incredibly helpful for me at one point. I also made up my own rules as I went along and that is how I have found lasting recovery.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 12, 2017
Messages
139
What I found was that it isn't always effective because it is such a narrow scope. There is only so long that you can keep calling yourself an addict before you will start using again. That is why you will see people with the first two years in that setting for the most part. Its part of the process.

Between two to five years, about 70% will relapse because there issues are no longer related primarily to abstaining from drug and are more likely to be related to difficulty finding new hobbies and creating an identity that is not include using drugs or identifying yourself as a drug user.

I think many people are unable to make this jump into a world where they can have activities that don't involve drugs or talking about them because AA and NA is not really centered around providing these opportunities. It is centered around bringing people together for a common goal of identifying as addicts in order to provide support during the early stages of recovery.

This is why you will only see a handful of people with over 5 years clean in NA meetings because most of them have either relapsed at this point or found that they were able to develop a life that didn't require actively thinking about their drug use anymore.

I think another issue with this sort of setting is the perspective towards relapse. The impression that relapse leads directly back to the place you started, when it doesn't have to be that way. We don't have to go to back there if we have spent any length of time learning that we have other choices.

So I agree it isn't a perfect solution, but it definitely helps to have people who understand what your going through in the initial phases of recovery. I started getting clean when I was still 17. I used meth and other drugs. I didn't feel able to socialize unless I was high. I relapsed a couple time here and there before turning 21 and have been clean ever since of meth, which is a very damaging substance. So that is about 17 years of recovery. I actually even count my recovery date from the age I started and not the age of my last relapse. I don't feel that my recovery process should be defined that way. I worked very hard between 17 to 21. I should get some credit for that too.

Sometimes people get caught up in rules like that, but at a certain point, you realize that it is okay to be creative. Being clean is a gift to myself. It doesn't have to be defined according to a program even though I won't deny this was incredibly helpful for me at one point. I also made up my own rules as I went along and that is how I have found lasting recovery.
To be honest, some people need to relapse, and in the end its for the better. They have to find out from first hand experience that there's no middle ground. You can't be clean for a month and think you can smoke 1 joint or drink one beer and the next day be fine.

For me I relapsed a bunch of times, but the last time I did I lost a really good job and a beautiful woman that I loved. I still miss that girl. Now I have these scars to remind me. Now I absolutely hate drugs and alcohol. I wish I didnt have to lose so much to gain this wisdom but unfortunately I did and at least now I know for sure that Im never going back.

Sometimes people have to fall really hard ten, twenty, a hundred times to get it right. So relapsing can actually be a good thing in my opinion. I've never been to an AA or NA meeting because that kind of situation would just make me want to drink or get high just to get through it.
 

DesertRose

Superstar
Joined
May 20, 2017
Messages
7,596
Hopefully some apt quotes, I really get sad about people despairing about past mistakes.

Generally, I like making my own mistakes and learning from them because that's what I think life is about.
Taylor Momsen

As humans, we're going to make mistakes. It's what makes us human, and most of the time, the most effective way of learning is from a mistake. Nash Grier
 

llleopard

Established
Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
408
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11893518
A few days ago, a homeless man passed away on the steps of an Auckland church. His funeral was today. I understand that many homeless people may have addiction or mental health problems, but I find it strange that this man had 6siblings, 4kids, many grandkids and cousins... and still they say 'the government' should do something. If my dad was on the street, I'm pretty sure my tiny extended family would stop at nothing to assist somehow. Only if he really wanted to live like that and was making that decision in his 'right mind' . Where do you think this family are coming from, cos I can't get my head around it? Am I missing something?
 

justjess

Superstar
Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
11,510
Maybe they didnt have the resources to help him. Maybe he was the proud ttpe who wouldnt have taken their help evem if offered because he didnt want to be a burden on his family. Maybe he had a drug problem or a mental illness he wasnt seeking treatment for and the family refused to help as a result. Thats the typocal advice given to family members to ensure they arent "enablers", honestly yoi really dont know anything about this man or his situation so its very hard to say.

I didnt really see the family saying the government should have helped - those were comments from other homeless people.
 

llleopard

Established
Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
408
Maybe they didnt have the resources to help him. Maybe he was the proud ttpe who wouldnt have taken their help evem if offered because he didnt want to be a burden on his family. Maybe he had a drug problem or a mental illness he wasnt seeking treatment for and the family refused to help as a result. Thats the typocal advice given to family members to ensure they arent "enablers", honestly yoi really dont know anything about this man or his situation so its very hard to say.

I didnt really see the family saying the government should have helped - those were comments from other homeless people.
Cousin Marsh Herewini spoke of how Manahi, a "warrior", loved the freedom and independence he had on the streets after stints in jail.

"He was locked in cells so long he missed the open air. He'd have nothing but he'd give you the shirt off his back. If you were hungry he'd give you his last dollar."

Herewini wanted some good to come of Manahi's death. He hoped it would inspire the Government to support those sleeping rough.
That is the quote from his cousin.
 

justjess

Superstar
Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
11,510
Yeah i read the article. Thats literally the only quote from his family like that and it isnt demanding anything really nor explaining much. A desire the government does something to help the homeless isnt really blaming the govermment for his death.

Apparantly he had a rough life, was beaten by dad as a kid, spent a lot of time in jail. We dont actually know anything substantial aboit this guy. He could have been violent or a child molester for all we know, they could have very good reason to not have put him in their own homes. And as i said before if he was an addict all the expert advice says to cut him off and let him hit bottom on the streets if need be. They arent going to speak ill of the dead in this article.

Also is he a native? I dont know anything about their culture but that might have played a role as well.
 

Venus

Rookie
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
87
Since all this discussion about alcohol, drugs, and addictions is taking place in the parenting topic, I'll share something with you.

I only had one brother, we grew up in a upper middle-class area in a metropolitan city in a country ruled by the Catholic Church many, many years ago. Although there were some double standards as to what was not permitted to me and permitted to him, most of it was basically due to age difference. I was 4 years older and the first born, so lots of things my parents didn't feel confident with me felt confident with him moslty because they learned to let go with me.

He tried drugs for the first time at around 14 years old. It was not because there were easily available to him/us, he was curious and found a way to get them. He used on and off for the next 20 years. The last 5 years of his life he started using more, in quantity and frequency. He never finish his education, he never hold a job for more than a year, his marriage didn't last more than a year, you get the idea...

We both received the same level of love, caring, and help during our childhood. Both our parents were very involved parents and did all they knew to guarantee our success, but something was wrong with him that made him look in a different direction. My parents were never enablers and knew how to put firm boundaries, they were always available and loving but was kicked out of their house for using, they kept the relationship and tried to help him to no avail. One day my mom recieved the fearful call that he overdosed, voluntarily...

His best friend didn't have the easy life we had, his father abandoned his mother when the youngest of his 4 siblings was 4 years old, he was 10. His mother wasn't the best example, he left school to work and support his family, did unimaginable things during his young years. Drugs, alcohol, sex... you name it, he probably did it. Today, he is a very sucessful person in his area of expertise, has a beautiful family and still looks out for his siblings. As a side note the youngest one died of sida when there were no real resources for them, he was 24.

All this to say, you have no idea what goes in the mind of others, why others chose to use, or not use, who has an addict personality and won't ever be able to recover. It may not be you, but it may one of your kids, a family member, someone you love...

As parents, we can always hope for the best. We can give our kids the most solid foundation, but unfortunately, there is no guarantee that it's going to stick.
 
Top