Outside Of The Bible & Quran, Can You Prove That Christ Ever Existed At All?

TonyVanDam

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I've been in a line of controversy in recent years for being convince that Yahshua [Christ Jesus] did not exist at all. I still keep an open mind to the possibility that Yahshua did exist as a human and [sadly to say....] his entire life story has been turn into a massive lie, never mind the facts that there were other so-called messiahs before him.

With that said, can anyone prove outside of the Bible & Quran that Yahshua ever exist as a world historical figure?
 






Aero

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There isn't the evidence you seek. But we know Pontius Pilate was real. As well as any other Ancient Roman. So he was probably real.
 






Violette

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Yeah, no one in the ancient world questioned if he existed. The only debate was about what he claimed to be. There are Christian, Greek, roman, Jewish , and pagan documents that acknowledged him. Roman Tacitus, Flavius Josephus , Julius Africanus, the Babylonian Talmud, and Lucian of Samosata are a few examples of those who documented and acknowledged the existence of Jesus.
 






rainerann

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Quote from Roman historian Tacitus

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa,"
 






rainerann

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Quote from a letter by Mar bar Serapion who was a Syrian woman who wrote a letter to her son comparing outcomes for the death's of noteworthy leaders.

"What are we to say when the wise are forcibly dragged by the hands of tyrants and their wisdom is deprived of its freedom by slander, and they are plundered for their superior intelligence without the opportunity of making a defence? They are not wholly to be pitied.

What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished.

God justly avenged these three wise men. The Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die; he lived on in the teaching which he had given."
 






llleopard

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I've been in a line of controversy in recent years for being convince that Yahshua [Christ Jesus] did not exist at all. I still keep an open mind to the possibility that Yahshua did exist as a human and [sadly to say....] his entire life story has been turn into a massive lie, never mind the facts that there were other so-called messiahs before him.

With that said, can anyone prove outside of the Bible & Quran that Yahshua ever exist as a world historical figure?
There are ten known non-Christian sources (including some like Tacitus who are anti) who mention Jesus within 150 of his life. - source Norman Geisler - Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics Over the same 150 yr period, there are only 9 sources that mention Tiberius Caesar (emperor at the time of Jesus). If you include Christian sources, mentions of Jesus outnumber Tiberius 43 to 10...who is more likely to be real I wonder? :)

From the ten n-C and anti-C sources, the facts given are
  • Jesus lived during the time of Tiberius
  • he lived a virtuous life and worked wonders
  • Had a brother called James and was acclaimed to be the Messiah
  • Was crucified under Pilate on the eve of the Jewish Passover. Darkness and an earthquake happened when he died.
  • His disciples believed he rose from the dead and were willing to die for their belief.
  • Christianity spread rapidly as far as Rome. His disciples denied the roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God
I think it unlikely that those writers would have written these kind of statements unless they were reporting well known information of the time. It is congruent to the New Testament account, and while these authors don't say THEY believe it, they report that disciples did.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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My problem here is that there is soooo much evidence. For those who want to, they can find it. For those that don't want there to be, you can wear your typing fingers away but it doesn't change the historical record....

One of the most interesting lines of enquiry is from hostile witnesses. It is in the message and teachings that they mock, distort and ridicule in their writings that we can get an 'outside' corroboration of an actual Jesus and actual Christians right back from the earliest records.
 






JoChris

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My problem here is that there is soooo much evidence. For those who want to, they can find it. For those that don't want there to be, you can wear your typing fingers away but it doesn't change the historical record....

One of the most interesting lines of enquiry is from hostile witnesses. It is in the message and teachings that they mock, distort and ridicule in their writings that we can get an 'outside' corroboration of an actual Jesus and actual Christians right back from the earliest records.
You never know if a newcomer is genuine or not in this type of inquiry.
I take the default position of assuming a person asking questions is an information seeker. If they are not they will quickly show they're really after debate.
But even if a debater asks serious questions I might still show links - some readers might be information seekers.

P.S. Anyway in the Age of the Internet I hope all schools and all academic institutions are training students on how to judge information resources on the Internet. e.g. tell if the website is opinion or serious scholarly information. "Back in my day" - before computers in schools (unthinkable isn't it?!) - it was hard finding information!
 






JoChris

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My problem here is that there is soooo much evidence. For those who want to, they can find it. For those that don't want there to be, you can wear your typing fingers away but it doesn't change the historical record....

One of the most interesting lines of enquiry is from hostile witnesses. It is in the message and teachings that they mock, distort and ridicule in their writings that we can get an 'outside' corroboration of an actual Jesus and actual Christians right back from the earliest records.
Here's an interesting Christian apologist's response to a 2nd century critic of Christianity. Origen was a 3rd century writer.
http://www.bluffton.edu/courses/humanities/1/celsus.htm

Perhaps the Greek writer Celsus gave the fuel for the later Jewish writers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud
 






Paranoia Daily

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http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

And just because Tacitus and others mentioned him does not make him real....Especially concerning they wrote hundreds of years after the fact.

So what do you make of Josephus 18.3.3 do you believe that was a christian interpolation?
 






JoChris

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http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

And just because Tacitus and others mentioned him does not make him real....Especially concerning they wrote hundreds of years after the fact.

So what do you make of Josephus 18.3.3 do you believe that was a christian interpolation?
If you believe that website then you'd better be careful when you visit "the earth is flat" and "mandela effect" threads on this forum.
 






choose2know

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I've been in a line of controversy in recent years for being convince that Yahshua [Christ Jesus] did not exist at all. I still keep an open mind to the possibility that Yahshua did exist as a human and [sadly to say....] his entire life story has been turn into a massive lie, never mind the facts that there were other so-called messiahs before him.

With that said, can anyone prove outside of the Bible & Quran that Yahshua ever exist as a world historical figure?
 






choose2know

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From the Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500. The most significant reference to Jesus states: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald ... cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."

Lucian: of Samosata: a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:
The Christians ... worship a man to this day – the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.... [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted
and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.

Pliny: Evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to deal with the growing Christian problem...
Later with Pliny and noting this information: "After the death of James, 61–62 C.E., Symeon, son of Clopas and cousin to Jesus, became the next episcipus, or bishop, of Jerusalem. And, according to Eusebius, the early Jerusalem church continued to exercise ...more here...
https://www.christianhistoryinstitute.org/study/module/pliny/

Of course the New Testament account as a legitimate written and oral tradition would be accepted in any court of law today as evidence of Jesus Christ. Ultimately though it is a matter of faith as is most of the issues we accept as truth.
 






llleopard

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http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

And just because Tacitus and others mentioned him does not make him real....Especially concerning they wrote hundreds of years after the fact.

So what do you make of Josephus 18.3.3 do you believe that was a christian interpolation?
Wow that is one sad sad site. Someone who spends that much time putting together that amount of un substantiated and ignorant information just gives the impression that they would like to believe but are too scared and have to spend their time yelling loudly to drown out any truth.

Josephus - seems sure that his original was tampered with - most scholars give this rendition, with the later added stuff in bold:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
Which is fair enough, but doesn't change the fact that Josephus wrote about Jesus: that he was at that time; wise; did wonderful works; was a teacher; drew Jews and Gentiles; was condemned by Pilate to the cross; and that his disciples didn't forsake him.
Even that is a good number of statements that he had no need to record as history in his work, if in fact Jesus was made up.
 






Paranoia Daily

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Wow that is one sad sad site. Someone who spends that much time putting together that amount of un substantiated and ignorant information just gives the impression that they would like to believe but are too scared and have to spend their time yelling loudly to drown out any truth.

Josephus - seems sure that his original was tampered with - most scholars give this rendition, with the later added stuff in bold:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
Which is fair enough, but doesn't change the fact that Josephus wrote about Jesus: that he was at that time; wise; did wonderful works; was a teacher; drew Jews and Gentiles; was condemned by Pilate to the cross; and that his disciples didn't forsake him.
Even that is a good number of statements that he had no need to record as history in his work, if in fact Jesus was made up.
]Wow that is one sad sad site. Someone who spends that much time putting together that amount of un substantiated and ignorant information just gives the impression that they would like to believe but are too scared and have to spend their time yelling loudly to drown out any truth.
Well that can be said for just about everything posted on this jesus...And its a sad life when all you have to do is put your belief in some fairytale character.....And thats the same impression I get reading your stupid ass post....Have a nice day.
 






Paranoia Daily

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If you believe that website then you'd better be careful when you visit "the earth is flat" and "mandela effect" threads on this forum.
Oh is that suppose to scare me? Sorry it don't...I have already made several posts in that stupid ass flat earth theory thread and if the other one is as goofy as this one and the flat earth count me out....And I would sooner believe that site than anything you have to say.....
 






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JoChris

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Oh is that suppose to scare me? Sorry it don't...I have already made several posts in that stupid ass flat earth theory thread and if the other one is as goofy as this one and the flat earth count me out....And I would sooner believe that site than anything you have to say.....But then again my signature says it best.....
Of course atheists would rather believe that website.
If Jesus actually existed a thinking atheist might need to investigate historical evidence and even read the bible to compare.
Much more comfortable to remain in ignorance and willful disbelief.
 






floss

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I don't know any historical evidences but look around the world today and see who these devil worshipper target? The Cross!, now why would that be the case? these Satanist hate God with a passion so why would they target the cross? The only logically explanation is they are targeting JESUS, whom is GOD. Only the Cross get attack which tell me that JESUS is real and the only hope for humanity.

I expel any anti-Christ spirits that is attached in these images and command all to flee in the mighty name of JESUS.

This "peace symbol" is anti-Christ. It's representing Jesus upside down with his arm broken down as a form of denouncing Jesus Christ aka GOD. That's what these satanist do in their initiation. Also, break the 10 commandments.



 






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