Our unsaved Loved Ones

[Todd]

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

This question is for those who believe in Eternal Torment. Is God going to erase the memory of all of our unsaved loved ones, or is he going to just take away our feelings for them?

 

[Daciple]

How is this applicable to only those who believe in Eternal Torment?

Let's take your belief, according to Scripture this is in the New Heaven and New Earth and we see that people are in the Lake of Fire during this time, however God has/will wipe away every tear...

During this time what is God going to do for you if you are in Heaven and your wife is buring in the Lake of Fire? Are you gonna be okay watching her burn for eons until whenever she possibly gets out?

I will leave this for you to answer...

 

[Todd]

How is this applicable to only those who believe in Eternal Torment?

Let's take your belief, according to Scripture this is in the New Heaven and New Earth and we see that people are in the Lake of Fire during this time, however God has/will wipe away every tear...

During this time what is God going to do for you if you are in Heaven and your wife is buring in the Lake of Fire? Are you gonna be okay watching her burn for eons until whenever she possibly gets out?

I will leave this for you to answer...

Two things:
1) Timing, it isn’t clear that this scripture is fulfilled before or after the eon of judgement, but logic would say after.
2). Even if the timing is before, the hope and assurance of knowing their suffering is not in vain and they will be reconciled. With Eternal Torment their is no hope....

And what makes you think those in heaven would have to watch those in hell? What a twisted picture of heaven you present.

 

[Daciple]

1) Timing, it isn’t clear that this scripture is fulfilled before or after the eon of judgement, but logic would say after.

Well Scripture never says anyone gets out of the Lake of Fire, so what we have to go by is that there is a New Heaven and a New Earth and people in the Fire at the same time, thats actually what Scripture shows very clearly:

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There is the Judgement and after the New Heaven and Earth we see:

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

So it is clear that ONLY those written in the Lambs Book of Life are allowed into the New Heaven and Earth and we see in Rev 20 ALL those in the Lake of Fire were NOT in the Lambs Book of Life.

And we also see:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

So there are clearly those who are in the Lake of Fire at this time, those who are without, those who make a lie...

There is zero Scripture that show any "eon" after this, this is the complete and total end of time and the Eternal State according to Scripture and not man made thoughts and ideologies thrown into the equation.

Therefore the same contention you have posed to those who agree with Scripture concerning the Final Judgement is still a problem you are going to have to address.

2). Even if the timing is before, the hope and assurance of knowing their suffering is not in vain and they will be reconciled. With Eternal Torment their is no hope....

That in no way actually addresses the point. How do you feel about watching someone you love burn for ages and ages?

Thats what matters, if they get out ok then, but that still doesnt address all that time between. So how is God going to cause you to be okay with that time?

I would say in the exact same manner in which He would cause those who believe what Scripture says concerning the Final Judgement and its Eternal State. So when you are willing to address how God will make it alright for you to accept that your love one is burning in Hell, apply that to those who agree with Scripture concerning the Final and Eternal State in which their family members would remain...

 

[Daciple]

And what makes you think those in heaven would have to watch those in hell? What a twisted picture of heaven you present.

I dont necessarily think you will see them in Hell but then again:

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Is 66:
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

I mean you can interpret that how you wish..

The point was the same exact situation you impose on those who believe the Scriptures is also placed squarely upon you and in the same manner God would make you accept one being in Hell, is the same exact manner He would make those who accept Scripture concerning the Eternal State. So again once you describe how God is able to fulfill this for you in your view then just apply it to those who accept the Eternal State of Judgement...

 

[Todd]

I dont necessarily think you will see them in Hell but then again:

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Is 66:
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

I mean you can interpret that how you wish..

The point was the same exact situation you impose on those who believe the Scriptures is also placed squarely upon you and in the same manner God would make you accept one being in Hell, is the same exact manner He would make those who accept Scripture concerning the Eternal State. So again once you describe how God is able to fulfill this for you in your view then just apply it to those who accept the Eternal State of Judgement...

Hope and assurance versus next hope at all....not the same! I can not have tears for my loved ones, because I know they will benefit from the process. In the scenario of Eternal Torment there is no hope. How do you not shed tears knowing they will never have relief?

Again you didn’t answer the question. Does God remove your memory of the loved ones or just your ability to care for them?

 

[Daciple]

Does God remove your memory of the loved ones or just your ability to care for them?

Ready for some honesty Todd? I have no idea how God is going to handle it, I can give ideas as to how, but I do not know. Just like I do not know how it He will make it so that while in Heaven before the End Time Judgement it will be okay with Love Ones in Hell during all that time either.

Your guess is as good as mine, and hence why I am putting everything back on you, cuz by whatever manner He is going to make it alright with you to accept these people in Hell, He will do it for those who accept Eternal Judgement.

What I believe is that in the End God will show how His Judgement is absolutely perfect and there will be absolutely no perspective that makes however He Judges other as being "Unloving" "Incorrect" or whatever Human emotion we can try and Judge God on His Judgements for...

I even believe that those who are condemned into Hell will fully understand His Judgement is Just.

Do you not believe that God is capable of proving His Judgement is perfect and righteous even if it means Eternal Damnation? Or do you believe God is incapable of proving such a thing?

 

[Todd]

Ready for some honesty Todd? I have no idea how God is going to handle it, I can give ideas as to how, but I do not know. Just like I do not know how it He will make it so that while in Heaven before the End Time Judgement it will be okay with Love Ones in Hell during all that time either.

Your guess is as good as mine, and hence why I am putting everything back on you, cuz by whatever manner He is going to make it alright with you to accept these people in Hell, He will do it for those who accept Eternal Judgement.

What I believe is that in the End God will show how His Judgement is absolutely perfect and there will be absolutely no perspective that makes however He Judges other as being "Unloving" "Incorrect" or whatever Human emotion we can try and Judge God on His Judgements for...

I even believe that those who are condemned into Hell will fully understand His Judgement is Just.

Do you not believe that God is capable of proving His Judgement is perfect and righteous even if it means Eternal Damnation? Or do you believe God is incapable of proving such a thing?

I believe God is capable. However infinte punishment for finite sins is not just!

That is also why I do not believe faith alone saves anyone. We must die to ourselves and let the fire of God bring up the dross, so he can skim it off.

The difference between true Christians and sinners is that true Christians go through that process in this lifetime will sinners go through it in the age to come.

I believe that when God says he will reconcile all things, that he means it. I believe when God said Jesus is the lamb of God who talks away the sin of the world he means just that, not the lamb that takes away the sin of only those who believe.

You claim I ignore scriptures that don’t appear to fit my beliefs, yet to accept Eternal Torment, you must ignore or come up with absurd interpretations of so many more scriptures.

I’m glad you admitted you don’t understand how it is all going to work...I don’t either. I just know that God is faithful and I find it absurd that the Loving God I know, would allow anyone to suffer infinite eternal torment for finite sins.

I find it absurd to think that man’s will, can win out over Gods will in the end. For that is the only way Eternal Torment can be true as God’s will is that all be saved and return to him. The God you portray is impotent and incapable of performing his will and redeeming all of his creation.

When I truthfully investigated the doctrine of eternal torment that I had wholeheartedly accepted for 20+ years, like you do, I found the overwhelming evidence that it just isn’t to be found in the original text. My faith is in God, not in a book. Yes the book has taught me many things and led me to a relationship with God, but me faith is in the living God, not the words on paper.

I used to be so confident that Eternal Torment was true, but eventually my trust and faith in God’s Love, grace and mercy grew to the point that caused me to ask God why he would allow most of humanity to burn in hell forever. His answer was “ I never said most of humanity would burn in hell”.

I resisted this thought for years, thinking it had to be the enemy. But why would the enemy want me to think God’s grace is greater than what man thinks. The enemy would rather have us believe God is cruel enough to allow humanity to burn forever.

Once I accepted that most of the English translations incorrectly translate the Greek words for ages or eons to “forever” it was simple to see eternal torment does not exist in the Bible.

You appear to be intelligent, zealous, and faithful so I hope and expect some day your relationship with God will come to the place where you see the same thing! If not In this age you surely will in the ages to come!

 

[Daciple]

However infinte punishment for finite sins is not just!

According to who you and your fallible human logic?

That is also why I do not believe faith alone saves anyone.

Which is also why you probably reject Scripture, because you want to believe what you want to believe vs accepting what the Word of God says and conforming to it. You want the Word of God to conform to you and your beliefs, instead of the other way around...

We must die to ourselves and let the fire of God bring up the dross, so he can skim it off.

And this is done how Todd? By works or by Faith? I can do any works I want or you tell me to do but if I dont have the Faith then they do me no good. Just as Faith without Works are dead, so to are Works without Faith pointless.
I responded in another Thread how no one here rejects the necessity of Works, but instead Works for Salvation.

The difference between true Christians and sinners is that true
Christians go through that process in this lifetime will sinners go through it in the age to come.

According to you yes, according to Scripture no. The difference between Christians and Sinners according to the Word of God is FAITH. Something you reject because to include it into your theology would destroy it plain and simple.

Heb 11:11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Also there is a huge massive difference between God helping us to overcome our Sins (which is what you are speaking about) and receiving Forgiveness from them. I already received Forgiveness from them when I did this thing called having Faith and Believing in Christ for Salvation. What separates me from a Sinner is ONE thing, Faith in Christ, that is it, nothing else...

If we see it is no longer by Faith, instead it is by Sight and what does the Word of God say Christians live by?

2 Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

I believe that when God says he will reconcile all things, that he means it. I believe when God said Jesus is the lamb of God who talks away the sin of the world he means just that, not the lamb that takes away the sin of only those who believe.

Except Jesus Himself literally says that, which you reject:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Only those who believe are not condemned Todd, you make Faith and Belief in Christ absolutely pointless. Apparently Jesus is lying when He says this. God has reconciled all things, by the way of the Blood of Christ He has taken away enmity that was between Him and us. And all the Sins of the entire World were taken away by Him, but Jesus Himself shows that if you do not believe then you remain condemned. Period.

You claim I ignore scriptures that don’t appear to fit my beliefs, yet to accept Eternal Torment, you must ignore or come up with absurd interpretations of so many more scriptures.

Thats laughable... So lets see should I try and accept an interpretation that allows all the Scriptures to be acceptable and not in contradiction or should I do as you and just reject the ones I dont like? That is literally what you do and hence why you start in on Paul and then eventually throw it all away...

I’m glad you admitted you don’t understand how it is all going to work...I don’t either.

Hey we can actually agree on something for once!!

I just know that God is faithful and I find it absurd that the Loving God I know, would allow anyone to suffer infinite eternal torment for finite sins.

Yeah people probably find it absurd that God came in the Flesh and died on the Cross to bring Forgiveness for Sins, but what matters, whether they find it absurd or if what God says is True?

1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

You should probably stop looking at God and conforming Him to your low estate understanding of what is Righteousness and what isnt. How often is God bringing Judgement into destruction upon the unbelieving? Yet what loving God would do that right?

I find it absurd to think that man’s will, can win out over Gods will in the end.

I find it absurd to think that God forces us to accept Him when He literally has an Entire 66 Books saying that He doesnt. Freewill Todd, but I guess you completely reject this now too?

For that is the only way Eternal Torment can be true as God’s will is that all be saved and return to him. The God you portray is impotent and incapable of performing his will and redeeming all of his creation.

And again this is a fallacy, or else you must say God is impotent and incapable because death exists.

Ez 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Is not it Gods Will that none of the wicked die? Is it not Gods Will that all of them TURN from their evil ways and live?

Is God now impotent and incapable because not everyone has turned and lived?

Of course not and neither is He incapable or impotent because people remain in that state after they die...

My faith is in God, not in a book.

I think from what you have revealed about yourself your Faith is in the God that you have made conform to your own image. Therefore any Scripture that reveals a God different than the one you made up you reject or downgrade so you dont have to accept what it says.

His answer was “ I never said most of humanity would burn in hell”.

Except that is what the Word of God states but you know who cares what the Book says right?

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You should probably take what this "god" is telling you and when it tells you things that go directly against what God has revealed to us thru His Word you should reject it, because its not really God.

Its interesting that right after God tells us that many will go into the wide gate unto destruction He also says:

Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

I mean with the Doctrine you profess on here, there is no such thing as False Prophets or False Teachers that bring us Damnable Doctrine that deny their own Lord and Savior. All of these warnings are moot and pointless because everyone ends up in Heaven. I mean honestly from your Doctrine there literally can be no such thing as a Damnable Doctrine or Heresy...

I resisted this thought for years, thinking it had to be the enemy

It was.

But why would the enemy want me to think God’s grace is greater than what man thinks. The enemy would rather have us believe God is cruel enough to allow humanity to burn forever.

The Enemy loves that you are telling all these Lost people that they dont have to Repent and Believe in Christ to get to Heaven. He loves that you are questioning the Word of God. IDK if you remember the first thing the enemy said in Scriptures:

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The enemy made Eve question Gods Word, did He really say you shall not eat? Well He said it but He wasnt really telling the Truth.

The enemy is telling you the same thing now, appealing to your limited human understanding, to your emotions and then makes you elevate yourself above the clear teachings of God to say well I cant understand how this could be so God wouldnt do it..

The enemy Loves the False Teachings you are preaching on here, he loves that you are constantly trying to make people question Gods Word, he loves that you are telling everyone that Jesus isnt God, he loves that you are telling everyone that the Trinity is false, he loves that you are telling everyone that it isnt by Faith we are Saved, he loves that you are telling everyone that Doctrine doesnt matter, he loves pretty much every single thing you have spoken on this forum. The enemy loves you brother...

Once I accepted that most of the English translations incorrectly translate the Greek words for ages or eons to “forever” it was simple to see eternal torment does not exist in the Bible.

Except forever means forever, and the Life of the Saved is exactly equal to the time the unsaved are in Hell. You want us to believe that Eternal Life doesnt actually mean Eternal Life. You want us to believe that in the Greek there is zero word for an understanding of infinite or Eternal. All you have done is rejected the Context of the Word which definitely CAN mean infinite and Eternal as in past all time forever, and used a meaning that fits your agenda.

You appear to be intelligent, zealous, and faithful so I hope and expect some day your relationship with God will come to the place where you see the same thing! If not In this age you surely will in the ages to come!

No sir, I wont ever come to your position, I will never deny Jesus as God, I will never deny the Trinity, I will never deny the Word of God is not the Word of God and I wont ever be telling the Lost that they go to Heaven even if they reject Christ and even if they go ahead and worship Satan and drink the blood of infants they murder in his name...

I hope that one day you Repent and come back to Christ and the Righteous Doctrine of the Word of God that you may have held in the past....

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Daciple

I noticed that Jesus himself was the one who made the real possibility of Hell clear to people. In showing the way to eternal life in relationship to the light of the presence of his Father, he made it clear that there was the possibility that we could also choose to shrink back into the darkness. To me it reads that eternity is guaranteed no matter what, but what kind is down to our choice.

Choice seems to be at the centre of the question. To what degree does the Lord, in the end, say to those who reject the Gospel, "thy will be done"?

 

[Thunderian]

This question is for those who believe in Eternal Torment. Is God going to erase the memory of all of our unsaved loved ones, or is he going to just take away our feelings for them?

Our minds will be perfect, and we will fully understand and agree with God's righteousness and the absolute justness of his actions.

The doctrine of everlasting torment for sinners is one that I had the most trouble with, but I have to trust that God knows what he's doing and even though I don't understand it now, I will one day. I can't judge him because something doesn't seem fair to me.

 

[Todd]

Maybe you have trouble because it’s not true. Look, I get it that you choose to trust God, when you don’t understand. What I don’t get is it that when evidence is shown to question the validity of doctrine, that people still will resist turning away from what they struggle with internally because of Church doctrine.

If you are born again and have relationship with God why would you trust man’s doctrine over the inner witness of your spirit? The witness of the Holy Spirit brings peace, comfort and hope. There is no peace, comfort or hope in the doctrine of eternal torment.

No truly honest, loving and compassionate Christian is really comfortable with the doctrine of eternal torment. Fear of the rejection of man (and man’s institution of religion) is the biggest hindrance to letting go of the doctrine of the false doctrine of eternal torment.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Maybe you have trouble because it’s not true. Look, I get it that you choose to trust God, when you don’t understand. What I don’t get is it that when evidence is shown to question the validity of doctrine, that people still will resist turning away from what they struggle with internally because of Church doctrine.

If you are born again and have relationship with God why would you trust man’s doctrine over the inner witness of your spirit? The witness of the Holy Spirit brings peace, comfort and hope. There is no peace, comfort or hope in the doctrine of eternal torment.

No truly honest, loving and compassionate Christian is really comfortable with the doctrine of eternal torment. Fear of the rejection of man (and man’s institution of religion) is the biggest hindrance to letting go of the doctrine of the false doctrine of eternal torment.

I don't think that God 'likes' the concept of eternal torment. I think it is rather like love and hate. To allow the freedom for the first to blossom, you create the chance for the second to exist too. The possibility of eternal joy in fellowship with one another and with God, with unveiled face, makes the opposite a possibility for those who finally and emphatically reject him.

The gravity which our Lord feels over our precarious eternal destiny is shown by him sending Jesus.

In the end it comes down to that most central passage from John 3,

"16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
I know you have a compassionate heart and want those who you care about to make it. I feel the same way, Todd. Many of my friends and family remain unsaved. You can feel their annoyance when you bring up anything "spiritual". I hope each one will get to spend eternity with me. I just don't think that's what the Bible teaches.

God bless you.

 

[Todd]

I just don't think that's what the Bible teaches.

God bless you.

He has thank you!
I find it sad that people say they want to believe something is true, but still hold on to a doctrine that can’t be proven by the word of God. God has spoken so many words that confirm the opposite, yet we cling and hold onto a doctrine that is never explicitly stated in the Bible and so contrary to the nature of the God we love and know. (I said we because I held onto eternal torment and even taught and preached it for 20 years, though if I was honest with myself I could never fully reconcile with the living God that had transformed my life)

I know of many people that have repented of eternal torment doctrine and turned to universal salvation. I have yet to find someone who once believed the doctrine of UR and turned to ET.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Todd - help me out here then... How do you reconcile free will and the nature of love with UR?

As I understand it, and no offence intended, UR seems to present a picture where the most open to the Gospel come to faith in this life. Others (the rebels) enter a kind of self inflicted purgatory where God in his love does what I used to do with my brother when we were kids - sit on him till he gives in.

I read "The Shack" a few years ago - I enjoyed the book but I picked up on the UR narrative in the dialogue that Mac had with the judge in the cave. There may be an appealing logic to the narrative but unless it truly reflects God, it is just that - a narrative.

 

[seekinheart]

eternal torment is so messed up. I dont care who you are or what you've done. Its messed up.

 

[Todd]

@Todd - help me out here then... How do you reconcile free will and the nature of love with UR?

What is there to reconcile? This temporary world blinds us, even Christians from seeing the full greatness of God. When we see him face to face their will be no doubt for even the most calloused and hurt individuals.

Most Christians I have met acknowledge it was the grace of God that pursued them, not the other way around. Who are we to say we deserve anything more than the most callous sinner. Where does God ever say his mercy and love has a limit? Was Christ’s sacrifice sufficient or not? Is Death more powerful than the resurrected messiah?

If we truly have free will, is it truly violated if none of us can deny God’s glory when the blinders of this world are removed? Either God’s will is that all be saved and Christ’s work was sufficient to fully accomplish that will or God is vengeful and will delight in the eternal torment of sinners. There is no in between.

Reconciling free will and Love is infinitely easier than reconciling Love and eternal torment.

 

[Thunderian]

Maybe you have trouble because it’s not true.

I trust the Bible, and not my feelings. I have no reason to doubt the doctrine.

 

[floss]

Seem like memories wipe, for the saved.

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Thunderian]

Seem like memories wipe, for the saved.

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I've heard that before, but I tend to disagree. What would be the point of any of this if our memories of what God did for us are removed? I think we will have the ability, as God does, to choose not to remember certain things.