Origins of Freemasonry, is it Satanic?

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The rest of humanity?

"The point is that Morning Star was a name for Lucifer before his fall, and there is no inconsistency with two very different beings called by the same name. Lucifer was a creature of beauty and power. Christ is God, the Creator, beautiful and powerful beyond measure, the one Lucifer rebelled against. But the name Morning Star is not tainted—it is Satan who is tainted. Obviously this is the case, or Morning Star wouldn't be used of Christ as it is in Revelation 22:1-15, nor used in a positive way as it is in 1 Peter 1 and Revelation 2."

I can find plenty of Christians who agree with me.
And because as you say name is not tainted, which i kind of agree with , that means lucifer and God are the same ? How about Job then ? So there are many gods or many lucifers ? You give to it way too many significance...

When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
 





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And because as you say name is not tainted, which i kind of agree with , that means lucifer and God are the same ? How about Job then ? So there are many gods or many lucifers ? You give to it way too many significance...

When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
I am simply presenting a position. One that doesn't conflate freemasonry with every other cult that exists. There's obvious differences in these ideologies. So again, I think that it's you not me. Well maybe it's not you specifically. But a lot of people are clearly following the anti-mason narrative.

It's obviously a cash grab. I'm not saying the Vigilant Citizen site is a big offender of that. They kind of are though, and it gets a little annoying. The only thing Freemasonry has in common with any other cult, is the elite or secret aspect. That's not enough evidence to lump all of these people and ideas together though.

Personally speaking. I think that Lucifer is a part of the true God. And I think I've wrote this before. Just never with Bible references to back me up. Lucifer is a message, or a guiding light. It's what Satan actually rebelled against. You know? Satan can't rebel against himself. So all I'm saying is, Lucifer can't be Satan. That's just lazy dogmatism
 





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I am simply presenting a position. One that doesn't conflate freemasonry with every other cult that exists. There's obvious differences in these ideologies. So again, I think that it's you not me. Well maybe it's not you specifically. But a lot of people are clearly following the anti-mason narrative.

It's obviously a cash grab. I'm not saying the Vigilant Citizen site is a big offender of that. They kind of are though, and it gets a little annoying. The only thing Freemasonry has in common with any other cult, is the elite or secret aspect. That's not enough evidence to lump all of these people and ideas together though.

Personally speaking. I think that Lucifer is a part of the true God. And I think I've wrote this before. Just never with Bible references to back me up. Lucifer is a message, or a guiding light. It' s what Satan actually rebelled against. You know? Satan can't rebel against himself. So all I'm saying is, Lucifer can't be Satan. That's just lazy dogmatism
How can he be part of true God if he was ranking servant of God (cherub) ? Are you that selective in your bible readings or you never read it yourself and somebody enlightened you...You don't even have basics...Lucifer was corrupted by sin just as we are, sin has changed him just like sin changes us...Everything is quite simple...You sound to me like this guy :)

 





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How can he be part of true God if he was ranking servant of God (cherub) ? Are you that selective in your bible readings or you never read it yourself and somebody enlightened you...You don't even have basics...Lucifer was corrupted by sin just as we are, sin has changed him just like sin changes us...Everything is quite simple...You sound to me like this guy :)

Well, my belief is we are all part of the true God. That God's light exists within us, and it is unlocked through knowledge.

As far as Lucifer goes. I think you are lacking the basics. You as well as many other Christians completely ignore, or gloss over Jesus being referred to as the morning star. So you are the one being selective.

The Freemasons appeared to of created a different methodology for belief in Christ. Maybe the methodology isn't that different, but they have added terminology that gives them more direction. It's like they modernized Christianity, by adding all of the things it's clearly missing.
 





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I ignored nothing i quoted bible where it called whole group of angels mornings stars...There goes the relevance of that word, just a phrase...Your far reaching ( strange) conclusions has zero biblical basis...Sure sure masons did just that :D:D:D
 





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I ignored nothing i quoted bible where it called whole group of angels mornings stars...There goes the relevance of that word, just a phrase...Your far reaching ( strange) conclusions has zero biblical basis...Sure sure masons did just that :D:D:D
It's not really far reaching. You just ignore every single interpretation that isn't your own. Here is a quote from an unbiased person.

"Isaiah 14:12 does mention the "morning star" or "son of the dawn" in many translations, however there is little that connects this individual with Satan. "Lucifer" is of course the word used in Latin, and happens to also be the word used in 2 Peter 1:19. The word is an adjective, and not necessarily a name.

In the Isaiah passage, I don't think the context suggests it to be speaking of any type of fallen being though. The taunt in this text is directed towards the King of Babylon and it seems outside of the text to read eisegetically some other being into the context.

Venus, the planet, is known as the "morning star," and also as "lucifer" in history. This is because it's an early light in the sky, shining in the morning. I believe the language here in Isaiah is descriptive of the King, and illustrates the magnitude of his coming fall using pretty allegorical language."

Lucifer simply means, light bringer. So there goes the relevance of that word? It's just a phrase.
 





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HOW DID LUCIFER FALL AND BECOME SATAN?
RON RHODES

The story of Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. Let’s briefly look at both of these.

It would seem from the context of Ezekiel 28 that the first ten verses of this chapter are dealing with a human leader. Then, starting in verse 11 and on through verse 19, Lucifer is the focus of discussion.

What is the rationale for the conclusion that these latter verses refer to the fall of Lucifer? Whereas the first ten verses in this chapter speak about the ruler of Tyre (who was condemned for claiming to be a god though he was just a man), the discussion moves to the king of Tyre starting in verse 11. Many scholars believe that though there was a human “ruler” of Tyre, the real “king” of Tyre was Satan, for it was he who was ultimately at work in this anti-God city and it was he who worked through the human ruler of the city.

Some have suggested that these verses may actually be dealing with a human king of Tyre who was empowered by Satan. Perhaps the historic king of Tyre was a tool of Satan, possibly even indwelt by him. In describing this king, Ezekiel also gives us glimpses of the superhuman creature, Satan, who was using, if not indwelling, him.

Now, there are things that are true of this “king” that—at least ultimately—cannot be said to be true of human beings. For example, the king is portrayed as having a different nature from man (he is a cherub, verse 14); he had a different position from man (he was blameless and sinless, verse 15); he was in a different realm from man (the holy mount of God, verses 13,14); he received a different judgment from man (he was cast out of the mountain of God and thrown to the earth, verse 16); and the superlatives used to describe him don’t seem to fit that of a normal human being (“full of wisdom,” “perfect in beauty,” and having “the seal of perfection,” verse 12 NASB).

Our text tells us that this king was a created being and left the creative hand of God in a perfect state (Ezekiel 28:12,15). And he remained perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him (verse 15b). What was this iniquity? We read in verse 17, “Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.” Lucifer apparently became so impressed with his own beauty, intelligence, power, and position that he began to desire for himself the honor and glory that belonged to God alone. The sin that corrupted Lucifer was self-generated pride.

Apparently, this represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe—preceding the fall of the human Adam by an indeterminate time. Sin originated in the free will of Lucifer in which—with full understanding of the issues involved—he chose to rebel against the Creator.

This mighty angelic being was rightfully judged by God: “I threw you to the earth” (Ezekiel 28:18). This doesn’t mean that Satan had no further access to heaven, for other Scripture verses clearly indicate that Satan maintained this access even after his fall (Job 1:6-12; Zechariah 3:1,2). However, Ezekiel 28:18 indicates that Satan was absolutely and completely cast out of God’s heavenly government and his place of authority (Luke 10:18).

Isaiah 14:12-17 is another Old Testament passage that may refer to the fall of Lucifer. We must be frank in admitting that some Bible scholars see no reference whatsoever to Lucifer in this passage. It is argued that the being mentioned in this verse is referred to as a man (Isaiah 14:16); is compared with other kings on the earth (verse 18); and the words, “How you have fallen from heaven” (verse 12), is alleged to refer to a fall from great political heights.

There are other scholars who interpret this passage as referring only to the fall of Lucifer, with no reference whatsoever to a human king. The argument here is that the description of this being is beyond humanness and hence could not refer to a mere mortal man.

There is a third view that I think is preferable to the two views above. This view sees Isaiah 14:12-17 as having a dual reference. It may be that verses 4 through 11 deal with an actual king of Babylon. Then, in verses 12 through 17, we find a dual reference that includes not just the king of Babylon but a typological description of Lucifer as well.

If this passage contains a reference to the fall of Lucifer, then the pattern of this passage would seem to fit that of the Ezekiel 28 reference—that is, first a human leader is described, and then dual reference is made to a human leader and Satan.

It is significant that the language used to describe this being fits other passages in the Bible that speak about Satan. For example, the five “I wills” in Isaiah 14indicate an element of pride, which was also evidenced in Ezekiel 28:17 (cf. 1 Timothy 3:6 which makes reference to Satan’s conceit).

As a result of this heinous sin against God, Lucifer was banished from living in heaven (Isaiah 14:12). He became corrupt, and his name changed from Lucifer (“morning star”) to Satan (“adversary”). His power became completely perverted (Isaiah 14:12,16,17). And his destiny, following the second coming of Christ, is to be bound in a pit during the 1000-year millennial kingdom over which Christ will rule (Revelation 20:3), and eventually will be thrown into the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41).

https://www.christianity.com/theolo...d-lucifer-fall-and-become-satan-11557519.html
 





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As a result of this heinous sin against God, Lucifer was banished from living in heaven (Isaiah 14:12). He became corrupt, and his name changed from Lucifer (“morning star”) to Satan (“adversary”). His power became completely perverted (Isaiah 14:12,16,17). And his destiny, following the second coming of Christ, is to be bound in a pit during the 1000-year millennial kingdom over which Christ will rule (Revelation 20:3), and eventually will be thrown into the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41).
This is kind of supporting what I'm talking about. Satan lost the title of morning star when he fell. So the rightful morning star is obviously Jesus Christ. But really it's a general term for the Sons of God.

From the book of Peter.

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed,[a] which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
 





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This is kind of supporting what I'm talking about. Satan lost the title of morning star when he fell. So the rightful morning star is obviously Jesus Christ. But really it's a general term for the Sons of God.

From the book of Peter.

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed,[a] which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
What do you make of the parallel with 2 Corinthians 11 though?

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
 





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What do you make of the parallel with 2 Corinthians 11 though?

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
I think that Paul was out of his mind. Too much flagellation maybe.

It seems that Paul is being very specific here though. He's jealous of what he called "super apostles". They were frauds to the Kingdom of Christ, but must of been getting all of the glory. According to Paul he got his ass kicked all the time, and taught everyone for free. So I really do like the story. Good one.

The modern day parallel you are trying to draw doesn't fit though. Nobody out there is pretending to be super apostles of Christ. Like that's not what the Pop stars are doing. That's not, nor has it ever been the Illuminati agenda. You know? Many things act as a destabilizing force against Christianity. But that doesn't make them all comparable to the false apostles from Corinthians.
 





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Liars, deceivers and manipulators.

Just knowing what I know already....I concur

I'd be interested in your response to this Aero.

 





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Bill Cooper thought every religious organization was infiltrated. According to him there is no safe haven, besides the knowledge he himself had. If you follow Cooper's logic(which is basically impossible). Every Christian is really a Pagan, and everyone else follows the mystery religions. There is just so much he apparently didn't know anything about. What I'm saying is, I think people were feeding him a lot of that stuff as disinformation.

Cooper often sounds like a Gnostic himself. Or a secret Muslim. Either way it makes sense for him to lump everything together on occasion. It makes for a good radio show, but it's like I said. He either didn't know a lot of things, or was purposely leaving stuff out. You all want to talk about pontificating and reaching far? Ok. His name is Bill Cooper, and it's no wonder why you all like him.

I think there's an argument that all these secret societies may really be following the same mystery religion. But that has zero correlation on any individual groups goals, or purpose.
 





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A child can draw connections between Roman Catholicism and Paganism! As this is a religion based on Christianity, that comes as no shock.

I don't reckon much to this Bill Cooper, but I have read a lot by another Bill Cooper!

I hope no one has gone after "conspiracy Bill" after my recommendation!!!!
 





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A child can draw connections between Roman Catholicism and Paganism! As this is a religion based on Christianity, that comes as no shock.

I don't reckon much to this Bill Cooper, but I have read a lot by another Bill Cooper!

I hope no one has gone after "conspiracy Bill" after my recommendation!!!!
Can you answer me this question then? I've asked it many times but as yet have not received a coherent answer.

In the Popes audience hall at the Vatican, and from my understanding he's the head honcho of the Roman Catholic Church, why is there a reptilian like head emerging from the head of Christ on top of the La Resurrezione Statue which is itself emerging from an atomic apocalypse?
 





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Bill Cooper thought every religious organization was infiltrated. According to him there is no safe haven, besides the knowledge he himself had. If you follow Cooper's logic(which is basically impossible). Every Christian is really a Pagan, and everyone else follows the mystery religions. There is just so much he apparently didn't know anything about. What I'm saying is, I think people were feeding him a lot of that stuff as disinformation.

Cooper often sounds like a Gnostic himself. Or a secret Muslim. Either way it makes sense for him to lump everything together on occasion. It makes for a good radio show, but it's like I said. He either didn't know a lot of things, or was purposely leaving stuff out. You all want to talk about pontificating and reaching far? Ok. His name is Bill Cooper, and it's no wonder why you all like him.

I think there's an argument that all these secret societies may really be following the same mystery religion. But that has zero correlation on any individual groups goals, or purpose.
He was reading you your own literature....or do you think he was just making it all up?

I know Bill Cooper was speaking truth....why?....because he's dead.
 





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So when these psychopaths decide that religion isn't going to matter any more...then what are you going to believe in?
 





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Can you answer me this question then? I've asked it many times but as yet have not received a coherent answer.

In the Popes audience hall at the Vatican, and from my understanding he's the head honcho of the Roman Catholic Church, why is there a reptilian like head emerging from the head of Christ on top of the La Resurrezione Statue which is itself emerging from an atomic apocalypse?
You ask a good question...

From the times of the Reformation, Christianity has identified religious Catholicism (not individual Catholics) as having a part to play in the Biblical End Times. Some even go so far as to identify the Pope as one day acting as the "False Prophet" of Revelation.

Unpacking symbolism from Revelation, they would usher in the "Dragon" of Rev 13 and war which is patterned in the four horsemen of the Apocalypse.

I like Gandalf's take on things from Lord of the Rings!

7c7d830f89cea48078dfd52c8be8da0a.jpg
 





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So when these psychopaths decide that religion isn't going to matter any more...then what are you going to believe in?
As to what is true, do you think it is wide agreement that makes it so, or something beyond consensus of belief?

Would London still be there if most people flatly rejected the idea?!