Only Atheists can be truly moral

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Yet in the next instant take the others toy or hit them ..
Actually, I've watched the video clip and they're doing nothing of the sort. That's not to say babies won't hit each other but in this instance, they're embracing each other without any coaxing or instigating from anyone in the room.

It's unfortunate for you that your glass on this issue appears to be ½ empty.
 






Lisa

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Well I'm not saying my own empathy and compassion are fully or even highly developed. But somebody truly capable of understanding the experience of others would develop a somewhat clear view on what would likely be best for them. In any case beginning from such a standpoint would be much more human than beginning from the basis of vengeance and wanting to inflict suffering without regard for whether such suffering serves any purpose.
Right...well having a moral compass i.e. knowing right from wrong is better than empathy where feelings are often wrong.

You could just as soon get mad at the person you empathized with because they did something against you...and there goes the good thoughts towards them.
 






illuminatimess

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Right...well having a moral compass i.e. knowing right from wrong is better than empathy where feelings are often wrong.

You could just as soon get mad at the person you empathized with because they did something against you...and there goes the good thoughts towards them.
But empathy is a part of moral compass?
 






Lisa

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But their actions are not based on hatred or envy. Contrary, adults always act based on some of these or similar motives.
What are their actions based on then?



Actually, I've watched the video clip and they're doing nothing of the sort. That's not to say babies won't hit each other but in this instance, they're embracing each other without any coaxing or instigating from anyone in the room.

It's unfortunate for you that your glass on this issue appears to be ½ empty.
I didn’t watch the video clip...but I know kids and they will be sweet and nice one minute and hitting and taking others stuff the next. Depending on the mood.

It’s not a half empty belief but common sense..and I’ve been a mom;)
 






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I didn’t watch the video clip...but I know kids and they will be sweet and nice one minute and hitting and taking others stuff the next. Depending on the mood.

It’s not a half empty belief but common sense..and I’ve been a mom;)
Perhaps you missed the part when I said, "That's not to say babies won't hit each other"? And I figured that out without being a mum - fancy that, eh? :D

Anyway, you appear wanting to be right rather than wanting a further understanding of what empathy is.

Good luck in trying to understand it.
 






shankara

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Right...well having a moral compass i.e. knowing right from wrong is better than empathy where feelings are often wrong.

You could just as soon get mad at the person you empathized with because they did something against you...and there goes the good thoughts towards them.
Well empathy is something we have to cultivate, and it has to become something conscious and aware in order to be compassion and avoid straying into mere sentiment. Of course in Buddhism we seek to overcome negative emotions, in order to avoid anger and delusion clouding our judgement. Feelings, especially if we don't consciously cultivate compassion, are of course sometimes incorrect. But in this case we could say there is a failure of genuine empathy, its replacement with a feeling which we label "empathy" which in fact is not. We may have some notions about right and wrong which correspond more or less with acts which are actually positive or negative, however only seeing from the other's perspective allows us to appreciate the actual complexity of things.
 






Lisa

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Well empathy is something we have to cultivate, and it has to become something conscious and aware in order to be compassion and avoid straying into mere sentiment. Of course in Buddhism we seek to overcome negative emotions, in order to avoid anger and delusion clouding our judgement. Feelings, especially if we don't consciously cultivate compassion, are of course sometimes incorrect. But in this case we could say there is a failure of genuine empathy, its replacement with a feeling which we label "empathy" which in fact is not. We may have some notions about right and wrong which correspond more or less with acts which are actually positive or negative, however only seeing from the other's perspective allows us to appreciate the actual complexity of things.
We do know about right and wrong...our consciences prove it. Feelings lie to us all the time..and they aren’t a good barometer of right and wrong. You could happily think sleeping with someone right..until it turns out wrong when you think you really don’t like that person anymore. So..which one was right and which one is wrong? Do we know at that point? But if you say sleeping around is wrong..then that helps people out. Then they know if they do that they are wrong. You might not like it but that’s besides the point.

I don’t think seeing anything from another‘s pov is entirely the end all be all of things. You just got their take on it..and you don’t know if its all a lie or partly a lie..or just their pov..and the truth is in the middle somewhere. They also can be wrong and be part of the problem in their own lives..by making bad decisions for themselves. Having a bad life..and who doesn’t at times...isn’t the moral of things and then allows you to act in any ol way.
 






shankara

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We do know about right and wrong...our consciences prove it. Feelings lie to us all the time..and they aren’t a good barometer of right and wrong. You could happily think sleeping with someone right..until it turns out wrong when you think you really don’t like that person anymore. So..which one was right and which one is wrong? Do we know at that point? But if you say sleeping around is wrong..then that helps people out. Then they know if they do that they are wrong. You might not like it but that’s besides the point.

I don’t think seeing anything from another‘s pov is entirely the end all be all of things. You just got their take on it..and you don’t know if its all a lie or partly a lie..or just their pov..and the truth is in the middle somewhere. They also can be wrong and be part of the problem in their own lives..by making bad decisions for themselves. Having a bad life..and who doesn’t at times...isn’t the moral of things and then allows you to act in any ol way.
Again, this is why we cultivate certain feelings and overcome others. Lust would be one of the things we would strive to overcome. We could come to the conclusion that sleeping around is wrong by seeing the emotional and psychological consequences it has for people, and we could understand these by developing genuine empathy to the point of actually somewhat comprehending people.

I think you are confusing the ideas of seeing from someone else's point of view and having compassion or empathy for others. Seeing from someone else's point of view would include accepting all their individual rationalizations for their behavior and beliefs. Empathizing with them (or perhaps better said being compassionate towards them) would mean feeling their pain and understanding how it has contributed to making them the person they are. This doesn't always mean behaving peacefully towards the person, it is sometimes necessary to be wrathful, but in a way which is founded on love.
 






Lisa

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Again, this is why we cultivate certain feelings and overcome others. Lust would be one of the things we would strive to overcome. We could come to the conclusion that sleeping around is wrong by seeing the emotional and psychological consequences it has for people, and we could understand these by developing genuine empathy to the point of actually somewhat comprehending people.

I think you are confusing the ideas of seeing from someone else's point of view and having compassion or empathy for others. Seeing from someone else's point of view would include accepting all their individual rationalizations for their behavior and beliefs. Empathizing with them (or perhaps better said being compassionate towards them) would mean feeling their pain and understanding how it has contributed to making them the person they are. This doesn't always mean behaving peacefully towards the person, it is sometimes necessary to be wrathful, but in a way which is founded on love.
Wow! You don’t really live in the real world do you?

I think your’e confusing the idea of morality with empathy.
 






threepwood

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Right...well having a moral compass i.e. knowing right from wrong is better than empathy where feelings are often wrong.

You could just as soon get mad at the person you empathized with because they did something against you...and there goes the good thoughts towards them.
Hi,

hmm.. I never thought of it in that way. Ever heard of a (relatively rare; i believe 3 to 5% of the population) psychological disorder named sociopathy? They are perfectly capable of empathy, but totally lack any kind of conscience.
If these properties pair with the lack of knowing good and bad, its called psychopathy.

So.. I think @Lisa also has a valid point. Empathy, the capability to emphasize with another persons feelings, isnt a virtue in itself.

EDIT:
I guess that's why the bible doesn't call it just empathy,... but, as I was looking up the dictionary, I realized the term "Nächstenliebe" translates to "grace", "grace of charity" or "altruism". And I dont know, if this really gets the point, as the german term "Nächstenliebe" literally translates to something like "love towards the one next to you".

Kind regards,
threepwood
 






Last edited:

Lisa

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Hi,

hmm.. I never thought of it in that way. Ever heard of a (relatively rare; i believe 3 to 5% of the population) psychological disorder named sociopathy? They are perfectly capable of empathy, but totally lack any kind of conscience.
If these properties pair with the lack of knowing good and bad, its called psychopathy.

So.. I think @Lisa also has a valid point. Empathy, the capability to emphasize with another persons feelings, isnt a virtue in itself.

EDIT:
I guess that's why the bible doesn't call it just empathy,... but, as I was looking up the dictionary, I realized the term "Nächstenliebe" translates to "grace", "grace of charity" or "altruism". And I dont know, if this really gets the point, as the german term "Nächstenliebe" literally translates to something like "love towards the one next to you".

Kind regards,
threepwood
Can anyone really live anyone or even themselves for that matter without God?
 






Lisa

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Wow! You don’t really live in the real world do you?

I think your’e confusing the idea of morality with empathy.
You already linked them a couple of pages ago..

8DE297C6-8550-4174-97F3-3CE89DE295A4.jpeg
1moral
adjective
mor·al
\ˈmȯr-əl, ˈmär-\

  • 1a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical moral judgments
 






Toknow

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Empathy, the capability to emphasize with another persons feelings, isnt a virtue in itself.
Shankara never said that. Shankara was speaking of morality, that it is based around empathetic understanding of other humans. Through empathy alone we have most of our moral positions justified. Leaving aside other aspects for where they belong; politics.
 






threepwood

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Shankara never said that. Shankara was speaking of morality, that it is based around empathetic understanding of other humans. Through empathy alone we have most of our moral positions justified. Leaving aside other aspects for where they belong; politics.
Hi @Toknow

I didnt want to put any words in Shankaras mouth. And I would have expected, that people would call out my (partly wrong) suggestion sociopaths were perfectly capable of empathy. Which turns out to be only partly true.

And I already agreed to Shankara, by saying that empathy could also be called "love thy neighbour as thyself" (I'm using an old KJ). But, I was trying to make the point, that you need morality for this to be a virtue. Our feelings dont come from nowhere. It very much depends on our moral positions.
So I would argue, that it is our conscience, which pushes us to either help or take advantage of someones vulnerability. Not the mere understanding of someone else's position.

Kind regards,
threepwood
 






threepwood

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Can anyone really live anyone or even themselves for that matter without God?
Hi Lisa,
no, i dont believe that's the case. If this were true, i guess there wouldn't be a reason for anyone to even try to be a better person.

But, i would also say, that love without direction (without God, so to speak), is more of a destructive force, than most people think it is.

Kind regards,
threepwood
 






Alanantic

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Hi Lisa,
no, i dont believe that's the case. If this were true, i guess there wouldn't be a reason for anyone to even try to be a better person.

But, i would also say, that love without direction (without God, so to speak), is more of a destructive force, than most people think it is.

Kind regards,
threepwood
So much for random acts of kindness, I guess.
 






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